Welfare, Curse or blessing?

[jerryskid]

Many of the people I know think that welfare is just a scapegoat for the lazy assholes of society. My figuring was that whether the system be welfare or society for the arts, there are going to people that mooch off of it. So why punish the majority for the transgressions of the minority. I myself am not a not a crack addict but some events may occur where welfare is necessary and I don't not want to have that option when I need it. So what are some other arguments for or against welfare?

[freetobegay]

1. I was once told my Grandparents were on welfare

in the 60's. My grandfather had to go out & work in the public parks to stay on welfare till he was able to get a job. This I don't have a problem with. Staying home raising babies & collecting a check I have a problem with. Welfare should help you get back on your feet, not let you prop them up!

[MissB]

4. I'm too tired tonight to debunk the myth of the welfare queen

Anyone else care to do it?

[jerryskid]

5. Im sorry

I would like to know more about this please. I have never heard of anything like that.

[MissB]

7. I wasn't being snarky

And I know someone will jump in here.

[MissB]

14. A poster by the name of Hamlette posted this some time ago

(Pulled from my favorite's file) Some of this refers to the poster's own state and some of it refers to US data.

1. The average welfare mom is 28 years old and has fewer then 2 kids (1.7). Her husband/significant other left her. (Those are the stats. Seems wrong but it's true.) She stays on welfare less than 2 years. Her "welfare benefit" in my state is about $450 a month. She gets a little more for food stamps but there is little subsidized housing. She only gets child care if she's working or in school. We don't support all educational programs.

2. The average LONG term welfare mom has an average of 3 "significant" barriers to work. A significant barrier is something like a disability...or two, or a disabled child, or lack of transportation. I've never met one person who wanted to be on welfare. It's not a choice. Everyone one of them has dreams of getting off.

3. The welfare rolls in the US dropped by 40% in the years BEFORE welfare reform (1993-1996). Although we are unsure exactly why, it is widely believed it was because of the good economy.

4. Welfare reform limits the amount of time someone can be on welfare now. In some states its as little as 18 months. In my state it's 3 years. The max the feds will allow is 5 years. The republican reauthorization bill will require that a recipient work about 35 hours a week. There are problems with that, one is that it leaves no time for obtaining skills for the people who can gain skills AND you have to fund child care for those hours of work, which is up in the air in the reauth bill. (20% are exempted from the time limit. We have time limited fewer than 100 families in the last 3 years. Very few have been extended into the 20%)

5. Work site programs are outrageously expensive to run. You have to be willing to fund them. They cost more than the welfare payment. Tranditionally states have not been willing to fund them. They also take jobs away from others. We partner with employers by contract and help subsidize the first 6 months of employment. If the employer keeps the former welfare recipient employed after the subsidy ends, they get a cash bonus. They are difficult programs and have some legal restrictions.

6. As was said by someone else, some people just can't work. For lack of a nice way to say it, they just don't have the brain power. It's a larger group than you might think. These are not people who are sitting around because they don't want to work. They have tried. We have tried to train them. After several failures they may lack the motivation to try again, but it's hard to blame them for that. It's not a matter of choice. I loved the line, live with it. It's true.

7. Some have to leave jobs when they hit the welfare income limit because of health and child care. If you have 2 kids needing child care and your job doesn't offer health insurance or your copay is high, you can't afford to work. We need to support the working poor better. The last reauth talks I heard about had gutted the additional money to support child care.

8. We're talking less than 2% of the federal budget for welfare (including child care and food stamps). ALL of that money goes to kids. (I wish I could move this to number 1 in my list. It really is the first consideration.) You don't get welfare if you don't have dependent children living with you. You cut off all support because the mom "doesn't want to work" you cut off all support to the children too. That isn't fair to the kids.

[freetobegay]

6. My sister was one! So don't even try.

eom

[MissB]

8. Your sister was on welfare? Or

Or are you saying that your sister was a welfare queen. Plenty of people can provide examples of people who have taken advantage of the system.

But the welfare queen is a myth.

[freetobegay]

9. My sisters purpose in life until Bill Clinton came along

Was to have babies, to get higher checks. What would you call that? I call it disgusting! she then had to raise those kids without welfare when her benifits ran out. With a lot of help from my family. I love my sister but this was wrong.

[salib]

16. Which part was wrong?

Why is it assumed that one is no longer lazy and is contributing ONLY if one is making money, at the sweat-shop or the Wal-Mart? And why is it a families responsibility more than it is society's to support people in their lives and "pursuit of happiness"? And finally, why is the only welfare that is acceptable is that which goes to the Wal-Marts of the world?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

13. Your personal experience aside doesn't reflect the reality and statistics

The myth of the welfare queen has been perpetuated by the right-wing as an attack on the poor, and more specifically, poor women and children.

The mainstream press and politicians from both major parties have done their share to perpetuate unflattering stereotypes of "welfare queens," illegal immigrants and idle minorities consuming an inordinate share of the federal budget. These demagogues rarely, if ever, acknowledge that most adult poor people work or that traditional welfare (AFDC, now called TANF) amounts to less than one percent of the federal budget. Furthermore, the anti-welfare crusaders do not bother to mention that handouts to giant corporations far exceed the amount spent on welfare for the poor.

CORPORATE welfare estimates vary considerably from the CATO Institutes' conservative figure of just under one hundred billion dollars a year to Zepezuer and Naiman's (authors of the book Take the Rich Off Welfare) more comprehensive estimate of more than $450 billion a year. Either figure vastly surpasses the amount spent on Aid to Families with Dependent Children, which totaled just $16.6 billion dollars in 1999. Indeed, federal assistance for corporations in the form of subsidies and tax breaks exceeds the total budget spent on AFDC, housing, student financial aid, nutrition and child-support programs combined.

Here are some links that may help clarify what I am trying to say:

http://www.speakeasy.org/~anitra/homeless/anitra/eightmyths.html
http://www.ufenet.org/

I think you should read them. It sounds like you've swallowed the right-wing talking points hook, line and sinker.

[freetobegay]

22. Haven't swallowed anything hook line & sinker

I know of alot more case just like this around me when I was growing up in Detroit. I am as about as liberal as you can get. & just because it's a liberal cause, doesn't mean that it cannot be abbused.

What Bill Clinton Did for Welfare reform was great & I applaud him for doing it.

Don't get me wrong I believe in welfare as a means to get back on your feet, but as with anything there are abusers.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

23. You may know a few in Detroit, but overall they are rare

MYTH: Welfare recipients commit a lot of fraud, at the expense of American working people.

FACT: Besides the fact that a lot of welfare recipients are American working people, a study in Massachusetts showed that vendors committed 93% of welfare fraud. This aspect of the welfare system drastically needs reform: it is harming recipients as well as taxpayers. But all of the political attention is on limiting the amount of money going to recipients.

And although the fraud by welfare vendors is terrible, it is a drop in the bucket compared to the burdens on the American taxpayer of military fraud, government waste, and corporate welfare. The Savings and Loan bailout alone cost $132 billion.

http://www.speakeasy.org/~anitra/homeless/anitra/eightmyths.html

[freetobegay]

25. Ok I see the point here.

Lets all just open our wallets & say take it. You don't need to use a gun either! Just take what you want it's yours.

People have you not read what I said? If you truly believe there is no warfare corruption from recipient's I have a bridge I would love to sell you. It was more wide spread before Clintion Than you are willing to admit.

I will once again state as I have twice above, I believe in welfare, but don't try & tell me it's just some isolated cases. I still have that bridge to sell, if you do.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

26. DID YOU READ THE LINKS?

Or are you just posting your personal opinion as fact? Do you have ANY EVIDENCE from legitimate websites to back up your assertions? I didn't think so. I know you're new to DU, but if you are going to post flamebait and make all kinds of comments that are derived from Rush's RW Talking points, you have to put your money where your mouth is.

I bet you have NO PROBLEM giving corporations HUGE tax breaks. That's who is really robbing you blind. Then they go and send MIDDLE CLASS JOBS overseas.

Between 1996 and 2000, 60% of corporations PAID NO TAXES! And you're worried about the LESS THAN 1% that aids the poor? :eyes:

[freetobegay]

29. What flamebait?

Do I need a link to my sisters life? Do I need a link in growing up? Not everthingthing is associated with a link! And can links be trusted? If they are to be Gospel I have several I have several I can give you for GWB!

Have I finally gotten my point across?

I would rather put my money in my mouth than to some underserving person abusing welfare!

Yes I have aproblem giving corporations HUGE tax breaks! Yes I have a major problem with "Then they go and send MIDDLE CLASS JOBS overseas."

The biggest problem I have here is you trying to incinuate I am a right wing! I was under the impression DU did not allow that.

On edit: P.S. So you can keep your :eyes: to yourself!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

39. I didn't insinuate anything

I thought your posts spoke for themselves. :shrug:

[freetobegay]

50. Just read your post. It says it all.

eom

[Classical_Liberal]

37. It was more used under Reagan/Bush than Clinton because the economy stunk

Particularly in Detroit. How come you don't complain that your family had to help her even after getting work because her job stunk. Conservatives have the wrong focus entirely.

[Used and Abused]

30. Maybe our definitions of welfare queen don't match up

I'm not sure what the official definition is, but I define it as someone who keeps having babies in order to support her lifestyle on welfare, refuses to work, doesn't spend the money on her kids (but rather herself or her friends).

[jbm]

17. doesn't matter if there was one..

or dozens. All of our systems allow for the impossibility of perfection...it's a question of on which side do we err? Our court systems are not oblivious to the fact that a certain number of innocents will be convicted,and they DO err on the side of the innocents,but any system that tolerated no convictions of innocents would be so cautious that the majority of the guilty would go free as well...so we seek a balance.

Welfare works the same way. Some undeserving people will take advantage,but not allowing that to happen would create a system so strict that the truly needy would often be unable to get help.

Shame on your sister if she's taking advantage,but the fact that she is doesn't mean the system is a farce. It allows for people like your sister already.

[Used and Abused]

18. the queen does exist

That does not mean that the majority of people on welfare are like that but the queen does exist. I've known many but welfare reform has, for the most part, eliminated that problem.

[MissB]

20. With the reforms, the queen cannot exist

By your own admission.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

21. Please READ THIS LINK:

MYTH: Welfare recipients commit a lot of fraud, at the expense of American working people.

FACT: Besides the fact that a lot of welfare recipients are American working people, a study in Massachusetts showed that vendors committed 93% of welfare fraud. This aspect of the welfare system drastically needs reform: it is harming recipients as well as taxpayers. But all of the political attention is on limiting the amount of money going to recipients.

And although the fraud by welfare vendors is terrible, it is a drop in the bucket compared to the burdens on the American taxpayer of military fraud, government waste, and corporate welfare. The Savings and Loan bailout alone cost $132 billion

http://www.speakeasy.org/~anitra/homeless/anitra/eightmyths.html

[patricia92243]

2. Children would be the first ones hurt if ther were no welfare.

[camero]

3. A circuit breaker to keep recessions from

turning into depressions because in times of recession it keeps money circulating. Too much hoarding inevitably causes economic crashes.

[rucky]

12. good point

and on the micro end of things, the money is really going to the supermarkets & landlords, etc.

nobody lives large on welfare. no reasonable person wants to be on it. only 2% of our discretionary budget goes to it. We work. We pay into the system, and if times are tough, we get to be recipients of that aid as well.

the welfare-bashing is a devisive class-war myth. there are always going to be people abusing the system, but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[wellstone dem]

10. What is the definition of welfare

If the definition of welfare is the government having less money and an me having more, then I love welfare. I love my home interest deduction, I loved the 3% school loan I had that paid for my schooling.

If the definition of welfare is the government having less money and someone I don't know having more, then I hate welfare, those lazy freeloaders.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

11. a blessing for a poor & hungry little child & that's ALL that matters!....

my $0.02...i would rather my tax dollars go to people welfare instead of corporate wealfare!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

19. EXACTLY!

See my post above. Why don't people want to take care of children, but have NO PROBLEM giving corporations HUGE tax breaks, and then they send our jobs overseas?

Between 1996 and 2000, 60% of corporations PAID NO TAXES! And our poster above is worried about the LESS THAN 1% that aids the poor?

[iamjoy]

15. Welfare Is Both

and welcome to DU

But really, take a single mother without a good support system, she's not very well educated or skilled (and lets not judge why she got into that situation)

She could go get a job paying $5.50 an hour. Working 40 hours a week, that's $220 per week. Of that, she's lucky to take home $200 after payroll taxes.

Now, because she's working, she has to pay child care, let's say she finds it for $75 per week. That leaves her with about $540 per month to spend on housing, transportation and food. She will face significant challenges with transportation and childcare, because many entry level jobs have hours other than 9 - 5. So, in many cities, there may not be daycare or transportation to suit her work schedule.

I'd say if she decides to go on welfare and stay home and be a part of her child's life that is probably one of the smartest things she's done in her life. Is that mooching?

[freetobegay]

24. ...

[guitar man]

27. "Welfare, Curse or blessing?" --both

It has been a blessing to those in need throughout the years. I don't think I need to expound on thet here at DU.

The "curse" comes in the form of companies like Wal-Mart and other rat-bag low paying employers who take advantage of the system by paying sub-standard wages KNOWING that there is no way to live on those wages and KNOWING their employees will be eligible for food stamps and other public assistance to make up what their paycheck fails to provide. Therefore,in my estimation,all welfare=corporate welfare.

What we need to do is institute living-wage laws for these abusers of the system,then we could reduce welfare expenditures astronomically.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

28. Thank you-how many corporate welfare posts will it take to get through

to the thick-headed? They worry about poor women and children-whose services take less than 1% of the budget-and ignore the Walmarts and other corporations who play slave wages.

[Used and Abused]

33. I think you miss some of our points

First off, I'm against all the corporate welfare going to those companies that chose to mismanage their money.

My problem with pre-Clinton welfare was the way it destroyed communities, it wasn't so much about the cost. The first biggest mistake was to set up projects--all they've become are concentration camps of poverty and despair. Add welfare to that mix and it spelled a deadly combination of poverty being reinforced throughout generations. Clear thinking people cannot deny that the projects have entrapped generations since their inception several decades ago. Welfare is no different--while it does help many, it can also serve as a hindrance (after a while) to those people in the worst of circumstances. I've seen it. I have family members who *were* caught in this trap and did not know any better (since their mother and their mother's mother) went through life on welfare. I'm not just talking from my ass here.

Welfare IS a necessity, I'm not calling for its removal. That is almost as absurd as pulling Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security. People do abuse those things as well, but unlike pre-Clinton welfare, those programs have limits.

What I am saying is that we cannot just aimlessly provide money without giving women the hope of coming out of the situation.

[freetobegay]

34. Thank you for your comment. It's right on the money

eom.

[dpibel]

47. Well, how surprising that you agree!

He does, after all, refer to "our" points.

Subtlety, kids. It helps a lot.

[guitar man]

41. "the hope of coming out of the situation."

Is to have ample living-wage job opportunities in this counrty.

I have been communicating with several prospective employers outside the US,explaining that I am having trouble finding adequate employment/compensation for my educational/skill level. One of them wrote back and asked me why the wealthiest country in the world was having trouble providing adequeate employment opportunities for its workforce. My reply: "You would have to ask the people in America with the wealth that one."

[guitar man]

35. You can't get through to some of them

They are all to happy to take advantage of the programs as they pick their "bargains" of the shelves,and at the same time,curse their taxes being used for social programs.

The question I had for a freepish type the other day was "why hasn't your party gotten rid of welfare,they have the white house,congress and the scotus,if they can't get 'er done with that,what good are they?"

<cue crickets>

[Crachet2004]

31. Look. All men (and women) are NOT created equal.

People sometimes need help, and the rest of us should give it. And does our economy always provide a job for everyone who wants one? Go to the threads on outsourcing. There are plently of educated, experienced people there, who can't find a job...why is it so hard to believe that someone from the pits, who never got a break, might have trouble?

A person can climb from the bottom to the top in our society, but that does'nt mean society is fair. That ANYONE can do it, just by working hard, is Bullshit. If you start at the bottom, you need some combination of brains, looks, drive, good upbringing, luck and a break or two. All the above is preferable. Now, how many people really have, or get all that?

The capitalist NEEDS for there to be the sharpest distinction possible between those at the top, and those at the bottom. Preferably, those at the bottom are are naked and starving, serving as an object lesson to others, and being maximally motivated themselves to climb from their personal quagmire.

As the whitecollar jobs are outsourced to Asia, I find it ironical that many wannabe republicans, who applauded the gutting of Welfare, and who often have no skills outside their own, often highly specialised niches, will soon be the very ones who need the lost safety net most.

[Used and Abused]

36. True but there ARE limits

A society cannot function if its citizens know for a fact that some people can *theoretically* goof off and not have to suffer the consequences. Am I saying that people on welfare goof off? No, so don't go there. What I'm saying is in response to the first sentence of your comment.

Summary
Needs help - Definitely should get it
Wants help - No

[Wapsie B]

32. One problem I always have with a discussion of Welfare

is that the vast majority of the time it's a talk about the evils of social welfare. Open and honest discussion of korporate welfare is practically nonexistant. Scores of "economic develpment commissions" across the country chase after industry with enticements and incentive packages, oblivious to public oversight and scrutiny.

[DrWeird]

38. That's right. Poor people = lazy assholes.

I say we round them up and gas them. Their just a bunch of leeches.

[Cleita]

40. Conservatives like to make people believe that people who

get welfare are lazy and have dozens of SS numbers to collect multiple welfare checks. I guess all those three-year-olds that benefit from food stamps really need to get a job. How about that blind old woman on welfare. I guess she just oughtta go out and get a job. There's a bunch of employers out there sending out headhunters to hire blind old women.

I guess anyone too self-centered to see that most people who collect welfare would rather have a decent job if they could work but can't will be willing to believe that those who receive welfare don't really need it.

There is information out there that points out that many workers who work in rich people's playgrounds, like Ketchum, Taos or Jackson have to get food stamps to feed their children because the work is so seasonal and underpaid.

It seems to me that the real beneficiaries of welfare are the rich who can't seem to pay the people enough that help them enjoy their lifestyles to be able to afford to eat and pay rent too.

[guitar man]

43. ding ding ding

Bob,tell us what Cleita has won for getting the correct answer here on DU Jeopardy! :)

[iamjoy]

42. Another Thought

I used to work with a woman who had previously worked in a social service/welfare office in NYC. We worked together about the time Clinton and the Republican Congress decided to "end welfare as we know it"

So, I asked her, did she think a lot of people took advantage of it? And she said, yes, but she would still rather have the safety net there because there were also people who really needed it, for whom the welfare check was the only thing between them and starvation or homelessness or both.

[dpibel]

44. Tonight's Special Tag Team Event!!!!!

Layyyydeeezzzz and Gennnnnnlemennnn!!!!

In this corner, wearing the red white and blue trunks, "Please help me learn about welfare."

And in this corner, wearing the white red and blue trunks, "My cousin's nephew knew four women one time who were welfare queens."

With a special appearance by, "Keep yer damn grubby hands off my money (unless you're going to give it to a corporation or use it to blow things up."

A cage match to the bloody death!!!!!

Step right this way!!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

46. Tee Hee

:-)

Funny, dpibel

[ACK]

45. Why does anyone need this answer -- Blessing

Nobody wants to live the nightmare of a year on welfare.

It is not like fat lazy rednecks or black folks in the rural South sit around their whole lives waiting for the big bonus check of welfare and food stamps.

If you have ever seen the trailers and shotgun shacks that I have seen, you would not have to ask that question.

If you ever looked into the eyes of a little girl whose mom knows that the food stamps are the only way here kid is going to get milk, then you would not have to ask.

This is not an attack against you please do not take it that way.

It is the simple fact that so many people have not lived with or looked into the eyes of real poverty in this country.

If you have ever talked to a mother wrestling with the choice of abandoning her children or not feeding her kids or staying on welfare, damn it the majority of people on welfare did not stay on welfare for more than two years before the welfare "reforms".

None of the welfare reforms deal with real issues like re-training, retention of real jobs in America, getting people in rural areas to the jobs with no public transportation or what the hell to do about childcare. None of the "reforms" had any bravery about reaching out and eliminating the real core of dislike associated these programs like setting FDR style work programs focused on work that strengthens the infrastructure and gives people the kind of work that touched on their skills. (ie like the FDR era program where artists painted murals for example) None of the things so far even dare to truly come close to really talking about reforms.

[leesa]

48. The problem with welfare is that once you enter it's realm, it is like

quicksand. It is incredibly difficult to get off because support is withdrawn too soon (before people are on their feet) or the requirements are just too difficut to attain. Who the hell would want to be on welfare if there were a way to get a decent job that allows you to care for your families? It is a rare individual who wants to live in that hell. It is pure bogus right wing mythology that has created this illusion of people salivating to get on welfare.

[ACK]

49. But what do you do?

The issue of the shrinking social safety net and the plight of the rural poor are issues that tug at my heart strings.

What do you suggest in terms of making real changes in order to make the welfare system work?