Should the term "bitch" and related phrases be forbidden on DU? (Thread 5)

[Skinner]

I think we need to come to some sort of consensus regarding the appropriateness of the term "bitch" on Democratic Underground. There seems to be a fair amount of disagreement on this issue, but I believe that it is possible to have a relatively civil discussion so that we can hopefully come to greater understanding of everyone's point of view. The question is:

On Democratic Underground, should we forbid the use of the term "bitch" to refer to women, and should we forbid related terms like "bitch slap?"

Please be aware that we are not going to forbid the use of the term "bitch" as a synonym for "complain bitterly," nor will we forbid the term "bitch" to mean "female dog." Those issues are not up for discussion. Also, to be clear... personal attacks against other members of Democratic Underground are not permitted, so it is already against the rules to call another member of DU a bitch.

To be more precise, the specific issues for discussion here are whether people should be permitted to use the term "bitch" when referring to high-profile political opponents, and whether members should be permitted to use the term "bitch slap" in almost any context.

I know that this is a highly-charged issue for many people, which is related to deeply-held progressive values including opposition to sexism, and support for free and open expression. However, we believe that it is possible to have this discussion without resorting to personal attacks and incivility, and we hope everyone will make an effort to participate in the spirit of mutual respect.

This is thread #5 on this subject. Here are links to Thread #1, Thread #2, Thread #3, and Thread #4.

[Bowser]

1. How about we end this nonsense....

and talk about more important issues...like what has happened in Iraq the last couple of days???

That's easy to do.

Go look at those threads.
& post there.

[VelmaD]

12. I am so tired of having to say this...

but it's amazing how there is always something "more important" than women's concerns about sexism. If we pulled out of Iraq tomorrow y'all would find something else that was more important. If the whole BFEE was thrown in jail overnight you'd find something more important. Well guess what...this is important to a lot of women and we're tired of people telling us "not now...later".

[Bowser]

33. You know...in all truthfullness...

it's only you and slinkerwink who have a real problem with it, you know that?

You keep saying the term "bitch" is sexist, yet you do not provide any sufficient evidence that says it is. Many different people on this discussion board have repeatedly said that "bitch" isn't a sexist term. It's only two or three of you who do.

Why is that?

[slinkerwink]

45. it's mostly the men in here that have said it isn't a sexist term

because they want to continue using that term to put down women based on their gender.

[dfong63]

53. censorship won't make sexism go away

[slinkerwink]

54. language does help in changing attitudes

[VelmaD]

47. You know...in all truthfulness...

you've been a member of DU for a day. Do you know the history of this place? Do you know the history that has led to this particular discussion? There are many other women on DU who have fought this fight on other threads in the past.

[slinkerwink]

51. I've been linked to those past threads, and god, so many

women who argued against the sexist term "bitch" are no longer here because they've become frustated with the sexism here.

[kayell]

97. Wow, does that comment resonate!

I am so frustrated by this. Sexism and heterosexism is rampant at DU, and the people who claim to be progressive just don't seem to get it any more than freepers some days. It often seems that some people deliberately fight against "getting it".

On days like this, I really don't know why I keep coming back here. The irony is, that as more true progressives and various minorities leave DU, it becomes less and less a progressive forum, and more like what it was designed to combat.

The irony is that if people here recognized how offensive the word "bitch" is and self-censored, just as we do other offensive and hurtful language, there would be no need for Skinner to propose banning it. The fact that so many here want to be able to use sexist put-downs says much about what DU has come to.

[ant]

116. to be perfectly honest

I do not support banning the word. I see both sides but personally feel it's better to address the issue as it comes up individually rather than issue an outright ban. I think that in that way you can change the attitudes reflected in the word, rather than driving them underground.

HOWEVER, after reading these threads and seeing how the women who support the ban are being treated, the level of sexism on this board is ASTOUNDING to me. I don't post that often and have only occassionally witnessed this, but not so much that I thought it was an epidemic.

It's really quite sad to see so-called progressives behaving this way on women's issue. There's just no respect or even an attempt to understand why the women who object would object. There's just no consideration for the idea that, whether you agree or not, you are offending someone who is supposed to be part of your struggle. You are hurting her. And it's not just indifference, either, it's outright derision and a belittling of concerns.

The word bitch doesn't offend me all that much, but the behavior I've seen in these threads certainly does.

[slinkerwink]

124. and that's why I wonder continuing the usage of sexist

epithets contributes to the sexism here.

[ant]

146. do you think it'll go away or fester underneath?

Someone made a comment in the other thread about displacing the attitudes, and that made sense to me.

Here's the thing: I'm one of those people who's taken the work back, so I think being called a bitch is a good thing. The reason it bothers me when people call Rice or Coulter a bitch is because I feel they're reacting to the aggresiveness of these women rather than their words/actions, and I think that's sexist. Simply banning the means with which people express that attitude towards aggressive women isn't going to change the attitudes. Instead, it's going to push it underground and remove any opportunity to discuss it. When someone uses the term in an offensive way (another reason I oppose an outright ban is that context does matter), that's an opportunity to talk to them about it.

Banning the word will not only eliminate that opportunity for discussion, it'll create more division and make people less likely to listen. Which is NOT to say we need to tread softly in demanding equal treatment, just that we need to understand the mindset we're up against and construct effective responses for the long term. Banning the word, to me, seems to simply sweep the problem under the rug and hide it from view. Let's have it all out in the open where we can challenge it on a regular basis.

[slinkerwink]

154. by using your line of argument, we shouldn't ban the word "n*gger" here

but we do.

[VelmaD]

147. You hit the nail on the head

When you get right down to it I'm not in favor of banning words. I just want bitch treated the same by the mods and members as any racial or ethnic slur. You don't see those on DU even though they are not officially banned.

Frankly I'm tired of this fight but I keep plugging away at it now because of exactly what you noted...that it is providing ample opportunity for the sexists on this board to come and make themselves known.

[ant]

163. I wondered about that, too

Asked it about in thread 4 before it got locked. The fact that we need to have this discussion about bitch but not about nigger or faggot really surprises me. Will people stand up for my "freedom of speech" on those words? Will people object, on principle, to an outright ban of those words? Quite frankly I would, but the fact that those words would probably never even be used by people in an offensive (or even non-offensive) manner in the first place, while bitch would be, speaks volumes.

(And I'm through using polite astericks - in the words of the immortal Billie Jean, fair is fair!)

[kayell]

77. Just in case you missed it - I have a BIG problem with it, and there were

a some others here too. There are also numerous women on this board who have not responded at all to this thread, probably in part because talking to people who won't hear is such a pain. You have been presented an excellent explanation of why "bitch" is sexist, that you have chosen to ignore.

Why is that?

[DemLikr]

66. You CHOOSE to do what you do; we all do, Velma

Quit playing the martyr while you police the language...the two activities don't jibe very well.

[VelmaD]

78. Does it make you feel big...

to try to belittle the concerns of others?

Please explain to me exactly how I'm playing the martyr when I point out how women have to constantly fight against having our concenrns shoved on the extreme back burner? I shouldn't have to explain that constantly on a liberal bulletin board full of the allegedly enlightened.

[DemLikr]

99. You don't speak for ALL women, Velma.

This is an obsession of yours, specific to you and a few others.

You write very well and do a good job of explaining your position, though your arguments haven't so far swayed me to your side in this little tempest. It is clear that me and many others at DU continue to disagree with you. That doesn't make us bad people, it makes us people who disagree with you.

And yes, I feel VERY big, and large and huge...:eyes:

[slinkerwink]

104. I love it when men tell us who we're supposed to speak for

:eyes:

[VelmaD]

119. I never claimed to speak for all women...

but I would like to believe I speak on behalf of the rights of all women.

I notice you do not level the same accusation at those who are trying to tell all women what they should think if their opinion is that we should not be offended by the word bitch.

[slksln]

161. I would like to speak on the behalf of the rights of...

all citizens. Let them speak how they want to... there are already enough laws and regulations restricting where. Don't let that be here. I've been reading DU a lot longer than I've been posting here. I don't want to have to gauge my words here like I feel like I do when I go out and go to work and into the rest of society. I like to think that DU is better than all of that.

Just my opinion.

I do think that women shouldn't be offended by the word bitch. Or slut. Or whore... or whatever, but that's me, a woman... that's all there is to it. I'm not imposing this on any other women, I just think that its sad when women not only hear the words which are attempting to put them down, but actually believe them and get put down by them. I don't think that women should be put in their place and start "bitching" when they are referred to by certain words.

Again, just my opinion.

And I would like to speak on the behalf of the rights of all citizens of the U.S. and not just the women in saying, let them put a voice to the words that they are thinking...

Again, just me!

[RapidCreek]

125. Yep Velma I gotta admit...your sensitivity to the word bitch

is a subject worthy of a lot of discussion.

RC

[slinkerwink]

130. what?!?!

[VelmaD]

135. Oh yes...it's all about me...

my ego knows no bounds.

Or not. :eyes:

If you make it just about me and my ego does that make it easier for you to dismiss?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

2. What if we're just repeating something someone said...

Like Dave Chappelle or something? I don't take bitch as a derogatory term. I'm proud to be a bitch.
Duckie

[bearfartinthewoods]

22. i've asked this before

maybe you'll answer.

if you have a daughter and her date says "get a move on bitch..we're gonna be late" do you think that will make her feel proud?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

38. That is different...

THAT is usuing derogatorily. There ARE acceptions to everything. If someone calls my daughter a bitch, I'm letting him have it right in his nose.
Duckie

[VelmaD]

41. Every woman is someone's daughter

eom

74. Bingo!

and I also wonder how many of these ruffians & bozos (hey look, non-sexist insults) have sisters.
I asked that question in the one of the other threads.

[Lizz612]

52. What if...

She's wearing a shirt that says "Bitch"?
She self identifies as a bitch?
Thats her pet name because your daughter is a feminist and trying to reclaim the word?

It is always about context.

[slinkerwink]

58. that's why it's okay for a woman to coopt that word and make it

positive like african-americans have coopted the word "n*gger" and made it positive. However, it is wrong for men to call black people "n*ggers" because that is a racist attempt to put them down based on their race. The same should go for the word "bitch" being used by men to put down women here.

[Lizz612]

82. But what if

Its not being used to put women down here?
I once had a boy call me a bitch and I thanked him. Why? Because told a girl who was teasing him, in not so many words, to bugger off. He turned to me with a big goofy grin and said "Damn, you are a bitch sometimes you know that?" It was a compliment, thats how I took it.
A blanket ban is not the answer, because its always about context.

[slinkerwink]

86. what if a white man said "damn, you are a good n*gga, sometimes

you know that?" to an african-american in a "positive" context?

[Lizz612]

95. Positive context, yes

They might be friends, maybe the white guy grew up with the black guy, maybe they're all just a bunch of middle class suburban kids trying to act ghetto, who knows! Words that are usually negative can take on positive meanings if you want them to!
Blanket bans are not the answer.

[mouse7]

56. If a niece's date says that in my presence...

...that date would find himslef opening my screen door out with his face.

Not because of the word used, but the complete stupidity of a kid acting that way in front of the adults who care about the kid.

I would do the same if they called her a bastard, asshole, dingbat, or a whole assortment of other insults that won't be banned here at DU.

(I said niece because I have no kids.)

[NMDemDist2]

123. Count me in as a proud bitch.. I don't pull it out often but if i meet an

@sshole (who are usually male) i can bitch whomp em good!

This seems much to do about nothing. Are we going to become so PC that all discourse is dead?

Everybody needs to get a little thicker skin and get over themselves IMHO

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. OK Regis, this is my final answer.

Words do not need to be banned from DU. People that are sexists and can be counted on to NEVER have a civil conversation regarding those words are disruptive and should be banned from DU the same way we ban conservative disruptors...it ain't the words...it's the person saying them that determine the intent of the language.

Meanwhile, the rest of us WILL continue to ask people to THINK about the language they employ to make their points.

Should asking people to THINK be banned from DU? Some people seem to be offended by it :D

[Deja Q]

9. Well said! I'd also like to add

that I know women who say the b-word and the b-phrase. ("bitch-slap")

It's impossible to please everybody.

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. The problem

Is that many well-meaning people don't think there is anything wrong with using these offensive words. The net result is that women (and others) are often offended, but the posts aren't deleted because DU lacks a clear policy on this form of speech.

So, yes don't ban them, simply consider the word to be offensive in reference to women and deleted them and the posters who insist on using the words.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. Those people are mature enough to have a reasonable conversation

and out of reasonable conversations come future actions.

[Woodstock]

50. Muddle and NSMA, you rock

:)

[kayell]

112. Muddle, we rarely agree, but I am right here with you on this one.

I can't believe how many people don't get it that this word, like many other hate words, hurts.

[Muddleoftheroad]

136. We agree more than you think

I just don't post much in threads and say, "me, too."

But this issue hits home for me. I know how I cringe when I hear racial insults. I know how I react and I can understand how many women feel about these terms.

[slinkerwink]

138. *gulp* can I just say how MUCH I appreciate you?

[blondeatlast]

16. Thank you, NSMA. You said it far better than I did.

As usual!

Edit--also to Muddleofthe road, hadn't gotten that far before responding.

[oxymoron]

27. Very well put NSMA.

I agree completely.

[Paragon]

4. 5 threads long?

Son of a bitch!

:silly:

[matcom]

8. agreed

we have about (still counting) 5 or 6 people who are keeping this argument going.

that is actually being generous

methinks we have about THREE around here who have an agenda.

we shall see.

still tallying the 4 other threads :eyes:

[Exultant Democracy]

31. Agenda!?!?!?! Don't be silly.

I am sure that the good people here trying to ban the word bitch have all of our best interests at heart and that they aren't trying to push though an extreme agenda. I am sure that all the most vocal supporters of the anti-bitch movement are also very loyal members of DU, who don't have a myriad of other problems with this board (and god forbid they could never be using this issue as a wedge to forward their own DU unfriendly agenda.)

[bearfartinthewoods]

115. considering that women are leaving because of perceived sexism

is the agenda to make this a 'real man's' site??

[kayell]

134. Apparently so. It's not a very comfy place for women anymore.

[Deja Q]

30. LOL! However, I am APPRECIATIVE OF THE 5 THREADS!!!!

Just to make this message clear, I used all caps. I'm grateful to have been able to say my peace and glad Skinner kept this thread going 5x, 10x, even 25x if needed. This is a serious issue and EVERYBODY should chime in, regardless of their belief on the issue.

[slinkerwink]

5. I'll be reposting my essay in here for the others to read....

There are many male members here in DU who defends their use of sexist terms like, "bitch" "slut" and "whore." What I find shocking is that many of you have failed to see the hurt and sexism you are perpetuating by using sexist terms like these. There are some male members who say that the word "bitch" is not sexist because it can be applied to both genders. That assumption is wrong because the origin of the word "bitch" is a female dog, one who breeds to have puppies. There we have the initial suggestion that breeding is the only good thing a female is for. The term "bitch" became popular in England, and was used by men to insult a woman on her gender, that she was reduced to nothing more than the sum of her parts, breasts and a vagina.

As the word "bitch" evolved, it still was used as an insult to women who were independent, assertive, or spoke back. "To bitch" was meant to convey the image of a nagging, whining woman, thus perpetuating the sexism in the word. Also, when men call another man a "bitch," it is meant as an insult to dominate and emasculate the man by calling him a whiny woman. Therefore, when men use the word "bitch," they are the dominant gender, and it is always meant to put down the woman based on her gender.

The word "bitchslap" meant the act of a man using violence against a woman, thus subduing her. Whenever a man says that a man "bitchslapped" another person, he is celebrating the indirect subordination of the woman by the thought of emasculating a man or subordinating a woman through this phrase. That is why even when men use "bitchslap" casually, they are perpetuating sexism because they are the dominant gender. Those of you who refuse to see this, are doing so on purpose to defend the continued usage of it to put down women based on their gender, not their behavior.

When men ask why women can use the word, "bitch," the answer is simple. Women are coopting the word "bitch" to lessen the damage behind it. This is precisely what African-Americans have done with the word "n*gger." They cooptd that word and made it positive. Hispanic-Americans and other minorities have done the same with racial and homophobic epithets. So when a woman refers to herself as a "bitch," she is saying that she is proud of being independent, assertive, or for speaking back. She has imbued a positive context into this word. When a man complains he can't use the word "bitch" to insult a woman based on her gender, should he also have the right to insult a black person by using the word "n*gger" based on his race? The answer is no. That word is meant to hurt and dehumanize black people, and that is precisely what men are doing by using the word "bitch."

If you don't like a woman, please do not call her "bitch," "slut," or "whore" since they ALL are attacks on her gender, not her behavior. If a woman is mean, call her mean. If she's incompetent like Condileeza Rice, call her incompetent. Why even debase yourself, and the intelligence of this progressive board here by continuing to use gender-specific insults? That is precisely what many of you are doing here.

Before you think of responding to me and defending the use of sexist terms, I want you to go out and look a five year old girl in the face and call her a "bitch" or "whore." If you don't want to do that, think about the message she gets from hearing other people use gender-specific insults. The message she'll get is that it's bad to be a woman, to be independent, assertive, and speak up for herself will mean getting called "bitch." That is the message men send to women of all ages when men continue to use gender-specific insults like "bitch," "whore," or "slut." Be an ADULT, be a REAL Democrat who cares about others, and be all that by not using gender-specific insults. After all, one of the definitions of a "liberal" or "progressive" is the capacity to empathize with others.

[drfemoe]

10. I just want to know

Have you had some kind of conversion? I know what you were writing a few months ago, and it is miles from here. If you did, I'm happy for you to realize sexual harassment when you see it. However, I do not think people using these words in the impersonal way they are used at DU constitutes harassment. I AM sorry to see that apparently you may be overcompensating by going in the extreme opposite direction.

I'm sure this couldn't be part of a Liebermania style, take a whack at DU. Could it?

[slinkerwink]

19. no, it's not part of a Liebermania style at all

I don't think I'm overcompensating. I never felt encouraged to speak up about my own views on sexism in here before I had a deep discussion with my friends that opened my eyes how to if I stayed silent about my own views, that I would be helping the perpetuation of sexism in here. I've begun to see that in standing up for myself, I've been called a "bitch" "feminazi" and "cunt."

[JohnLocke]

24. Calling someone a "bitch" does not equate to calling someone a cunt.

No matter how loud or often you say it, it's not true. :eyes:

[slinkerwink]

28. it has the same effect of putting down women based on their gender

[JohnLocke]

35. Invalid comparion.

Terms such as "nigger," "kike," "wop," "spick," "wetback," "chink," "mick," "gook," "cunt," etc., are applied in a derogatory manner toward members of a population (Jews, females, homosexuals, Asians, Hispanics, etc.) simply because of the fact that they they are members of that population. An example of this is the word 'nigger' -- a term used in connection with an immutable characteristic in a single context.

In contrast, words like "bitch" are applied on a gender-neutral basis, because of one's behavior. Hence, Sean Hannity or Kathleen Parker could be an "ultraconservative bitch." Call me crazy, but I believe I should be able to call him that without being considered a bigot who refers to females as "cunts," blacks as 'niggers,' ethnic Chinese as 'chinks,' homosexuals as 'fags,' etc.

Blanket bans on certain words are foolish. I say allow the moderators to judge the appropriateness of a word on a case-by case basis.

[slinkerwink]

48. please read my post carefully, post #5 as to why it is NOT

gender-neutral.

[JohnLocke]

59. By those standards, the word "testimony" would be considered sexist.

That assumption is wrong because the origin of the word "bitch" is a female dog, one who breeds to have puppies. There we have the initial suggestion that breeding is the only good thing a female is for. The term "bitch" became popular in England, and was used by men to insult a woman on her gender, that she was reduced to nothing more than the sum of her parts, breasts and a vagina.

So? Under Roman law, to speak under oath in front of a court was called "testimony," because the man (no women were allowed to testify) would swear to tell the truth on his testicles. Over time, however, the world's legal systems grew more enlightened, women were allowed to take part in legal activities, and the word 'testify' came to mean anyone who spoke under oath before a court.

My point is, despite any original constructions, of the word 'bitch' (and it's derivative, 'bitch-slap) over time it's meaning is changed. We're not all stuck back reading 'Canterbury Tales.' Words, like all of culture, changes over time, and 'bitch' is no exception.

[slinkerwink]

63. but the fact is that "bitch" IS still used as a sexist epithet

[JohnLocke]

73. 'Bitch' refers to one's actions, not to one's gender.

[slinkerwink]

79. no, it is to one's GENDER....

[JohnLocke]

91. Any empirical evidence?

[slinkerwink]

94. it's in the dictionary-----three out of four definitions show it's

based on the female gender.

[JohnLocke]

120. And of course you don't cite the dictionary because there is none.

Please cite a dictionary in which three out of four definitions are bigoted toward human females because they are female.

[JohnLocke]

152. Still waiting...

[mouse7]

75. In YOUR opinion

The fact that you have an opinion about something does not elevate your opinion to suddenly becoming a fact or evidence.

[mitchum]

46. That's why you keep the second word in reserve, JL

No woman is ever going to be foolish enough to think that she can "co-opt" it. Actually, "co-opting" any slur is a ridiculous and laughable notion.

[bearfartinthewoods]

62. why not? explain it to me.

what is the difference, considering the word comes from a reference to a female, where do you see the difference?

[JohnLocke]

83. Hmm...try looking it up.

----
Cunt (k&nt, noun)
1. usually obscene : the female pudenda; also : coitus with a woman
2. usually disparaging and obscene : WOMAN 1a
Etymology: Middle English cunte; akin to Middle Low German kunte female pudenda
----
Bitch ('bich, noun)
1. : the female of the dog or some other carnivorous mammals
2. a : a lewd or immoral woman b : a malicious, spiteful, or domineering woman -- sometimes used as a generalized term of abuse
3. : something that is highly objectionable or unpleasant
4. : COMPLAINT
Middle English bicche, from Old English bicce
----

[mouse7]

90. It's usage has evolved. 911 used to only be a police emergency number

Words evolve all the time. 911 used to mainly be the police emergency number. Spam used to be a disgusting canned meat. I doubt Hormel can even claim a copyright for Spam now.

[blondeatlast]

29. Regarding Slinkerwink, I don't think her well-reasoned opinion has

changed at all.


FWIW, mine has. don't use the word because it's offensive, but don't ban its use, either.

[drfemoe]

148. No, it was a conversion

Post #19:
I don't think I'm overcompensating. I never felt encouraged to speak up about my own views on sexism in here before I had a deep discussion with my friends that opened my eyes how to if I stayed silent about my own views, that I would be helping the perpetuation of sexism in here. ...

She feels differently now that her "friends" have "opened" her eyes. Now she must speak out at DU to avoid the "perpetuation of sexism" HERE.

Conversion.

I don't use those words because I don't want to. I want others to have the freedom to use words they believe are "appropriate" so I may gain a greater understanding of what they are thinking. This crusade is about changing people's thinking. It's not about five letters.

[slinkerwink]

157. it's not a conversion----I already had the same views I had before

I didn't feel encouraged in expressing them, but now I do because sexism is a damned important issue here!

[kiahzero]

72. A response

There are some male members who say that the word "bitch" is not sexist because it can be applied to both genders. That assumption is wrong because the origin of the word "bitch" is a female dog, one who breeds to have puppies. There we have the initial suggestion that breeding is the only good thing a female is for. The term "bitch" became popular in England, and was used by men to insult a woman on her gender, that she was reduced to nothing more than the sum of her parts, breasts and a vagina.

Then, by your logic, bastard is a sexist word towards men. The entymology of the word is a fatherless son - obviously insinuating that a man is only worth anything if he has a good bloodline. Men are reduced to merely the blood they carry in their veins.

The word "bitchslap" meant the act of a man using violence against a woman, thus subduing her. Whenever a man says that a man "bitchslapped" another person, he is celebrating the indirect subordination of the woman by the thought of emasculating a man or subordinating a woman through this phrase. That is why even when men use "bitchslap" casually, they are perpetuating sexism because they are the dominant gender. Those of you who refuse to see this, are doing so on purpose to defend the continued usage of it to put down women based on their gender, not their behavior.

Actually, you're wrong. The word "bitchslap" refers to a supposedly submissive woman smacking a supposedly dominant man - the downtrodden rising up and attacking their oppressor. The thread using the word "bitchslap" referred to a supposedly submissive liberal rising up and slapping the supposedly dominant Bush Administration. Hence, it was an accurate term.

When men ask why women can use the word, "bitch," the answer is simple. Women are coopting the word "bitch" to lessen the damage behind it. This is precisely what African-Americans have done with the word "n*gger." They cooptd that word and made it positive. Hispanic-Americans and other minorities have done the same with racial and homophobic epithets. So when a woman refers to herself as a "bitch," she is saying that she is proud of being independent, assertive, or for speaking back. She has imbued a positive context into this word. When a man complains he can't use the word "bitch" to insult a woman based on her gender, should he also have the right to insult a black person by using the word "n*gger" based on his race? The answer is no. That word is meant to hurt and dehumanize black people, and that is precisely what men are doing by using the word "bitch."

That effort to redefine the word is meaningless, since you aren't redefining it for everyone. When some Neopagans sought to reclaim the word "witch," they did not seek to bar all non-witches from using it. They sought to redefine the word for everyone.

Before you think of responding to me and defending the use of sexist terms, I want you to go out and look a five year old girl in the face and call her a "bitch" or "whore." If you don't want to do that, think about the message she gets from hearing other people use gender-specific insults. The message she'll get is that it's bad to be a woman, to be independent, assertive, and speak up for herself will mean getting called "bitch." That is the message men send to women of all ages when men continue to use gender-specific insults like "bitch," "whore," or "slut." Be an ADULT, be a REAL Democrat who cares about others, and be all that by not using gender-specific insults. After all, one of the definitions of a "liberal" or "progressive" is the capacity to empathize with others.

Sorry, but the two aren't comparable - attacking a girl with an insulting definition of a word, and redefining the word as something else and using it against someone else.

[bearfartinthewoods]

6. when i first started smokin dope it was not unusual to hear someone

say that someone else had nigger-lipped the joint.

language can change and with it, attitudes.

it IS important.

[slinkerwink]

25. I agree with you.

:pals:

[CaptainClark23]

7. Responding to Velma

"women have been told to "wait your turn" or "we'll get to your concerns after this other thing that is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT then you". Stunning how our turn never seems to come. Pardon us for standing up and saying NOW."

You've no need to ask my pardon for anything. Your statement seems to indicate a knowledge of my position on equality which I am certain you do not have.

I understand your position. I disagree with it for many of the reasons posted earlier by others. If you wish to discuss it further, I'd be happy to respond off-thread. I'm not going to do it here.

Have a good day.

[VelmaD]

21. Wasn't really aimed at you personally...

but rather a comment on history and how often women in various progressive movements have been told "help us now and we'll deal with yours issues as women later" only later never comes.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

11. yes they should be forbidden.

...and why so many threads?

[blondeatlast]

14. It should definitely NOT be used, but it's use shouldn't be prohibited.

This is a tough call for me, but ultimately I equate the word as its use is being discussed here as the rough equivalent of the *N* word.

Enlightened people, as I prefer to think of most DUers as being, ought not to use it, but I don't think they need supervision to refrain from using it.

In regrds to Ann Coulter (and Reply #1 in thread 4) the proper term would NOT denote femininity.

[Rationality]

15. To Woodstock and slinkerwink

I understand women - I'm assuming you two among them - may in fact feel that the use of this word may be degrading. As I said though, I can think of any word out there, and when the wrong meanings are attached, it becomes a profanity. It is doubtful that phrases like "spanking the monkey" meant anything during the Middle Ages, but you say you're "spanking the monkey" today and people will think you're a childish pervert.

Same thing with "bitch" and the other words we commonly deem offensive. The moral advocates can wage a good fight against the use of such language until it is barred, but can you possibly censor thought? You may be limiting the vocabulary, but if someone wants to express the ideas placed behind the words "bitch," one way or another they'll find a creative way to do it. And as they do it, they're going to envy using that word even more.

(edit - misspelled slinkerwink's name. apologies)

[Woodstock]

80. bitch-slap is the word I have a problem with

and what I'm asking for is discretion - that's not quite the way you painted my position, but that's OK.

I thought a thread title saying:

"Colin Powell is a n*gger"

should be treated the same way as:

"John Dean bitch-slapped Bush"

Trust me, threads with titles like the first one ARE being handled (thankfully.)

Some people find the first offensive, some don't. Some people find the second offensive, some don't. But enough find both offensive for there to be a little discretion used in the way they are handled.

I say, let's make the place welcoming for women, blacks, gays, everyone. The problem with thread titles that are hateful toward groups is that some people in these groups will take one look and never enter the door. Or some will stick around and then give up and go away. Thoughts can evolve, but not if everyone isn't around to talk about things.

[Crunchy Frog]

108. What if someone refers to Colin Powell

as a "dickhead"? Would that be considered offensive?

By the way, the only one I'm aware of actually calling Colin Powell a "n*gger" was Harry Belafonte, and I don't recall alot of people here getting very offended about it.

[Woodstock]

162. You will have to tell me about the d word

Is it offensive to you? I'll respect your wishes. I always figure, play it safe, and use one of the several thousand other words at my disposal, so as not to offend on a public board. To me, we need to bring people together under the Democratic tent, not divide.

As I said, for me, it's not bitch that's the problem (don't like it but don't want it banned) but the slapped part. That's violence.

n*gger-slapped

gay-slapped

bitch-slapped

It sounds like violence towards groups based on gender, race, sexual orientation. Whatever someone wants to say it means, I know for many it means for a guy to slap "his bitch" to keep her in line.

Re: Harry, that's his right to say it. I respect him a lot. I heard him say it on Larry King. But he didn't actually say it in that context - he said Powell was Bush's "house n*gger" and when he said it, he implied that's the way BUSH thinks of Powell. Harry's use is cool, but it still wouldn't make for a civil bulletin board title. That's what discretion is all about. I just think some discretion in the subject/title would be a good thing. I'm not into censoring words per se.

[Nikia]

Yes, it has been used against me by misogynists

I was called bitch by boys jealous that I got better grades than them including grades in math and science. I was called bitch because I raised my hand often in class. I was called bitch by a boy who grabbed my breasts when I hit him. I was called bitch for standing up for a developmentally disabled boy. I was called bitch for debating with the Republican history teacher in high school. I was called bitch by my exboyfriend when I disagreed with him. I was called bitch at a previously non gender integrated workplace (Women=lowest paid/lowest skilled positions). I was called bitch because I didn't know my place place as a lowly girl.
That's why I get offended by the word bitch. That's what it means to me.

[slinkerwink]

43. alright....I'll list here the many times I've been called a bitch

I was called a bitch for speaking up, for expressing my views.

I was called a bitch for asking why girls couldn't do the same things boys could do like football.

I was called a bitch by my ex-boyfriend because I wouldn't give them oral sex when I was tired.

I was called a bitch for standing up for one of my gay friends.

I was called a bitch because I also scored better grades than the guys in math and science. I was the only girl in that class.

I was called a bitch for speaking out against Bush.

I was called a bitch for speaking out against sexism here.

I was called a cunt or a feminazi here for speaking out.

[rumguy]

61. Ironic - cuz those are all PERSONAL ATTACKS

Leave the language alone. Peronal attacks, outright bigotry will ALWAYS be banned from DU.

[Rationality]

68. Rumguy is correct ((n/t))

[slinkerwink]

71. and when I hear the word "bitch" being used against other

women, it makes me cringe. As well as it would make an African-American cringe to hear the word "n*gger" being thrown at Colin Powell or Condileeze Rice. If we don't allow racial epithets here, then we shouldn't allow sexist epithets here.

If YOU want sexual epithets to be used, then we SHOULD use racist epithets. That's what you get with no censorship.

[Rationality]

85. Thing is, you make it offensive, slinkerwink

You brew over it and then you and everyone else who claims to be offended choose to be bothered.

And as I already said, people should have the right to be disgusting creeps, as long as they realize that they will be tombstoned as soon as they swipe at us.

[slinkerwink]

88. no, we ARE offended.....we're not claiming to be offended

:eyes:

[mouse7]

101. Anyone who tries to be offended in a situation will succeed

People who are looking to find personal attacks almost always succeed in their efforts. Some here have exerted more effort along these lines than others.

With the repopularization of the term "LAME", think how often a disabled person like me could claim someone was intentionally trying to hurt them.

[bearfartinthewoods]

143. look here..

i think your dismissive attitude is freaking unbeleivable.

and so is your lame strawman, crip. i can call you crip because i have one leg shorter than the other and one non fuctioning hand.

doesn't me calling you crip make you feel empowered?

[mouse7]

165. Actually, being called "crip" really doesn't bother me.

That's my whole point. This isn't a "sexism" problem or a "misogynism" problem. 95% of this mess is personal issues individuals are projecting upon DU as a group issue.

Have there been sexist incidents. Yes. Has the whole thing been overblown all to hell? Absolutely.

[bearfartinthewoods]

132. CHOOSE to be bothered?

what a load of crap. that's like saying i choose to be bothered by bush.

[slinkerwink]

139. exactly.

[Rationality]

140. That isn't a load of crap

Bush is actively stripping the Bill of Rights down and actively sending us to die for false causes.

Someone saying "bitch" is making a passive swipe. For the effect to work, you must act on and think about it.

[rumguy]

87. according to your own logic though, it would be OK for a women to use it

here on DU - so basically only ban men from using it?

Also - is it ok to still use it as a verb, adjective?

[slinkerwink]

92. I'm somewhat hesitant about using the word "bitch" as a verb

or adjective, because when I hear a man or a woman saying "She's bitching," I get the negative association of a woman whining. I have to think on that further.

Yes, it would be okay for a woman to use it in a positive context about herself and her gender, like it is okay for an african-american to use the word "n*gger" in a positive context and to lessen the damage of that word.

[rumguy]

96. so let me get this straight

Bitch should ONLY be allowed on DU if it is used by a woman or if it's an adjective (as in: that's a bitchin' post dude)?

[slinkerwink]

105. I'm still thinking about it

[slinkerwink]

111. I know that some african-americans

here have used the word "nigga" in a positive way, and those comments weren't banned. However, if a white person were to use that same word, that comment by the white person would be banned. I'd suggest that the same go for women with the word "bitch."

[rumguy]

117. what about all the members that don't declare gender?

[Lizz612]

156. Thats a double standard

And thats the sort of thing that got us in trouble in the first place! I don't think that there should be one standard for one group of people and another for another set. Ever.

[opiate69]

141. And, of course....

it's entirely outside of the realm of possibility that any of your actions actually fit the definitions of the word?

Bitch ('bich, noun)
1. : the female of the dog or some other carnivorous mammals
2. a : a lewd or immoral woman b : a malicious, spiteful, or domineering woman -- sometimes used as a generalized term of abuse
3. : something that is highly objectionable or unpleasant
4. : COMPLAINT


:shrug:

[Nikia]

17. Yes, it has been used against me by misogynists

I was called bitch by boys jealous that I got better grades than them including grades in math and science. I was called bitch because I raised my hand often in class. I was called bitch by a boy who grabbed my breasts when I hit him. I was called bitch for standing up for a developmentally disabled boy. I was called bitch for debating with the Republican history teacher in high school. I was called bitch by my exboyfriend when I disagreed with him. I was called bitch at a previously non gender integrated workplace (Women=lowest paid/lowest skilled positions). I was called bitch because I didn't know my place place as a lowly girl.
That's why I get offended by the word bitch. That's what it means to me.

[slksln]

55. It's not how it's used.

I've been called a bitch by my friends and by those whom I don't care for. I've been called a bitch because I got good grades, because I got the job, because I spoke my mind, because I am a self-confidant woman.

Sometimes I am a bitch. I admit that, but I like to think that when I do act like a bitch that its been completely called for.

"Bitch" is a word. Words mean what we are told they mean and what we believe they mean. If we don't let the words get to us, we may be able to get past them and see why they are being directed at us. That's how we see what needs changing.

This idea is exemplified in the movements to reclaim words. Like using pussy in a good sense.

Words are just words. I never have understood why they get everyone so upset. Its not the words that are the problem, but the sentiment behind them.

Bitch, bitch-slap, cunt, pussy, asshole, dick, mother fucker, cock sucker, boobs, shit, shithead, pisshole, twat, kyke, gyp, nigger, et cetera, and so on, they all mean what we say they mean. They didn't always mean what they do now, and they most likely will not always mean the same as the do now.


I hope I'm being coherent.

[Nikia]

70. I don't know about you but I think in words

Thus language has a big effect on my thinking. Language is the only way that we can share our feelings with other human beings, especially over the internet. How can anyone say that words aren't important?

[kiahzero]

102. Words aren't important

Ideas are important. Words are just phoenetics we use to express ideas.

When we quibble over words, we aren't quibbling over the actual phoenetics, we're arguing over what idea should be attached to those phoenetics. Those who want to ban the word "bitch" want to attach the idea of "women are bad" to the word. I don't see the word in that context, nor do I use it in that context.

[slinkerwink]

107. then we shouldn't care about the words "n*gger" or "faggots"

being used here to put down people based on their race or sexuality.

[kiahzero]

121. Nope

We should be upset about the ideas expressed by those words, not the combination of vowels and consonants that form them.

Which is more offensive:

A) A person using the word "faggot" to refer to a homosexual friend, without malice or hatred?

B) A person using the word "homosexual" to refer to a homosexual, with malice and hatred?

I'd argue that B is vastly more offensive. A is removing the negative connotation from a word, whereas B is putting negative connotation where there was none before.

[slksln]

133. I think it words too, but...

I say that words aren't important because that is how people think. You said so yourself.

I personally think that people should not be restricted from speaking their minds. Which, in a subdued sense at least, is part of the Constitution, IIRC.

If I am not allowed to use the words which I am thinking, then I am not able to say what I think. And being allowed to say what I think happens to be somewhat important to me.

Now, that also means that I tend to put less stock in what others say, sometimes, when I know that they aren't putting much time into their thoughts before they voice them. Because the words they are using are simply the words that they are thinking in, and the words I think in don't always mean to anyone else what they mean to me.

18. I would prefer the words not be used

Out of respect to posters I am familiar with who are offended by them.
Out of respect to posters that I have no way of knowing whether they are offended by them.
Out of a hope (however forlorn) for a more elevated specific form of discourse.

but actually banning them, I don't think is a good idea.
If they are used in a specific attack, then the attack should be treated appropriately.

I agree with Slinkerwink that the terms are offensive and offensive to women. Anybody who claims differently is just twisting meaning to a level of absurdity.

[Deja Q]

20. My two cents... warning, this is gruesome...

(not to forget the mention of my response to NSMA)

Banning words is highly controversial, to say the least... why not fine those who say the word $500,000 for every time they utter it?

I haven't seen either word used frequently on DU so maybe I'm missing out on something.

If y'all ban it, I will conform to the rules of course. But I don't see what the life threatening issue is that warrants such restrictions. :cry:

[tishaLA]

37. Good idea

we can become like the FCC or a character on Seinfeld.

[Nlighten1]

26. No

[Stephanie]

32. Answer: No

No thanks.

[Skip Intro]

34. W.W.A.D. - What would ashkkkroft do?

That's my initial take on the whole thing.

I know some people are offended by the term, and I rarely use it, if ever, but there are definite free speech issues here as well.

If ashkkkroft or powell jr. were going to fine Stern for using the word, would we support that?

on edit:

If it wasn't clear, I'm not in favor of banning the term(s), but I understand that it is offensive to many. Don't like that word - "ban."

[LiviaOlivia]

36. Now there's a thread arguing "bad guys" is offensive.

Aspects of pop culture are offensive one could argue. It is an ageist thing I believe. Misogyny is alive and well. That is the issue and of course it is being minimized as usual by other issues such as racism, freedom of speech, etc.

I vote that usage of "my bad" guarantees a tombstone.

[Lizz612]

39. I'm going to go with free speech on this one

I have been called a bitch, and it has meant everything under the sun, except the original definition. The connotation has been demeaning, empowering, even complimentary. Its always about context. Frankly I don't care about what the history of the word is. I care about how its being used here and now.

Addressing the actual questions:
"should we forbid the use of the term "bitch" to refer to women"
I have never heard it here on DU in reference to women in general. I suppose Skinner means a phrase such as "I hate bitches." In this case the speaker obviously means bitchy women, but not just women. Posters seem to object because the noun is feminine when standing alone. To which I say, there is an equivalent, bastard. Yes the words came from different places, but now they mean roughly the same. I'm not for putting women above or below men, I'm for equality. Equal empowerment and equal bashing.

"should we forbid related terms like "bitch slap?""
Again, I care only about the current use of this word; a solid open handed slap across the face, sometimes leaving a red hand print. I have no problem with this. I've given a few of these when they were well deserved.

This isn't science where aluminum always means aluminum, this is culture and it changes. Words are part of culture, they change also.

[PsN2Wind]

40. No, although this is a forum

primarily for political discussion, let's not go all politically correct. If it makes any of the offended persons feel better, they can call me whatever they want. I spent eight years in the service, my skin is thick.

[neverborn]

42. Yes.

I agree with everything slinkerwink has posted.

There's no need for "bitch" or "whore" if there's no need for "faggot" and "nigger."

[slinkerwink]

49. thank you....

*nods*

[soup]

44. no

*jr is a sonofabitch and I'd like to retain my right to say so.

[Crunchy Frog]

57. It may be terribly politically incorrect of me

but I have no problem with the use of the words "bitch", "bitchslap" etc for some women, (or even some men). There just are certain people who I think of in those terms. I do think that the word "c***t" is going overboard, and racial epithets are obviously completely unnacceptable.

On the other hand, I have no objections to calling certain males by the terms "dick", or "dickhead". There are many male public figures that I think those epithets can be fairly applied to.

If someone uses that kind of language to denigrate an entire gender, then that post should be alerted on for denigrating a gender, but of course you can denigrate a gender even without using particular banned words. So I think that is a separate issue.

By the way, I rarely if ever actually use that kind of language here, but I like knowing that I have that option if I feel strongly enough about something.

I also like having the option of describing certain people in the media as "whores", even though many people may consider that to be sexist as well.

Thank you for giving us the opportunity to express our opinions.

Edited to add that for the record, I am a woman, and am completely opposed to sexism in all forms. I just don't find those particular word used in certain contexts to be offensive.

[Nobody]

60. 5 threads: Shows just how important semantics are

So many times when offensive language is used, whether a racial, thnic, or gender based slur, the person who is offended is told patronizingly that it's just semantics and it's too minor an issue to get all worked up about.

If semantics is so minor, why ARE there 5 threads?

The phrase "get all worked up about" implies getting upset over trivia and is very patronizing.

No one on any of the 5 threads has actually said this, I use it as an example of words that can hurt.

Suppose I were to have titled this post "Even you can understand this post" with no explanation. If I had, any DUer would have been justified in hitting the Alert button. Is there a slur in there? No, but the semantics of that sentence shows contempt for both the post and the "you" being referred to.

I am pleased to have not seen or heard the word "broad" for a number of years. Glad that one has gone out of style. (By the way, it means pregnant cow)

[slinkerwink]

98. exactly....language has the power to hurt....

which is why we don't allow people to use the "n" word in here or the word "cunt." The same should go for "bitch."

[skooooo]

64. censorship sucks

[slinkerwink]

103. then we should allow "n*gger" or "faggot" to be used in here

as racial or homophobic epithets.

[Lizz612]

110. The poster said that censorship sucks

Don't put words in his mouth. Its unsanitary.

[slinkerwink]

114. it's also unsanitary to use sexist epithets here

:shrug:

[Lizz612]

118. Damn it all!

Its a JOKE! Said to me by my 8th grade chem teacher! Geez...

[Crunchy Frog]

128. I'm offended by the word suck.

I think your post should be deleted.;)

[rucky]

65. I'm holding out for thread #6

I need some more feedback before I form an opinion.

[The empressof all]

67. Oh My God

Last time I looked and responded to this thread I think we were on phase III. Jeeeze you are all acting like some old married couple (of any gender you prefer-of course)bickering and beating some old dead horse. Oh wait--looks like I might have sic'd the animal rights folks after me----mea culpa---mea culpa

[KoKo]

69. What! 5 Threads? Gotta be a Skinner DU Record. Heck with it let

folks post what they want: Douche Bag, Dick Head, Ass Licker, Bending Over, On His Knees, Bitch Slapped, C**T, F**ker, whatever. Let it all go out there and blow the lid off the site.

Five Threads?? There's a WAR Going On! I don't know if this matters. I used to think it did, but then I'm getting "jaded." :D

[absyntheNsugar]

76. Bad manners, yes. Verboten, no

It's offensive. We shouldn't use it - and its just plain bad manners. Why? Well women (the target) find it offensive, and that's enough for me.

HOWEVER - it shouldn't be banned, formally. I just expect everyone to jump on whoever uses it and give them a nice reamin'.

[johnram]

81. No

I think Bitch is an OK term

[DemLikr]

84. What about "bitchin," which is a POSITIVE adjective? Would it be banned?

:eyes:

[citizen snips]

89. Stop these bitching threads.

n/t

[Renew Deal]

93. Don't sensor words

As long as DUers aren't calling each other bitches it should be allowed. I understand why it can be offensive, but there is a lot of stuff that could be considered offensive here. Leave bitch alone. How long before we remove f*ck or one of the other words. Personally, saying Bush* is a f**king lying bitch is true and it makes me feel better.

[Wonk]

100. Some of the posts in these "bitch" threads so far are downright hysterical

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=120x16372

[rumguy]

106. lol

why stop at the word bitch...

[slinkerwink]

109. oh yeah, let's ban "n*gger" or "faggot"

:eyes:

[rumguy]

113. Once again, this has been dealt with a million times on these threads

If you haven't gotten it yet, I can't go into it again...

[tishaLA]

122. I'm glad you pointed that out

I made a comment about someone calling Randi Rhodes an hysteric the other day. It went unnoticed. Someone also made the astute observation above that testimony would have to be forbidden on the same grounds because its etymology is to swear on one's testes.

It's a never-ending game I would be more than happy to engage in, if only to demonstrate how ideas, and not words, are problematic.

[JohnLocke]

127. You called my observation "astute"? I'm flattered!

Thanks!
:toast: :yourock: :toast: :yourock: :toast:

[tishaLA]

137. Well the shoe fits JL

so wear the motherfucker

[Crunchy Frog]

145. Don't mind me,

I'm just trying to figure out if there are any words in your post that I find offensive.:think:

[RhodaGrits]

126. My two cents as a woman who has considered herself a

feminist for way over 30 yrs (remember the ERA bracelets?).

I vote against banning bitch, bitch slap etc.

Yes, I find them *very* offensive and I get annoyed like slinkerwink when I hear Ann Coulter etc called a bitch or worse. I do think bitch slap is a term to be avoided because of its reference to violence against women. (And don't get my going on the c-word but that's a personal hangup.) But, I have from time to time referred to a man as a prick and, for that reason, I KNOW that this stuff is sexist. I don't use "prick" unintentionally - I'm striking at his gender as an insult. I grew up in a household with a sexist father who had me seeking out feminist literature at an early age. My brothers' worst insult to me or anyone of any gender was "you girl". I think that a lot homophobia is because some men can't understand why any man would want to act or look at all feminine - because they believe women are inferior.

But I believe free speech trumps my "annoyance" and free speech is a liberty that means we have to put up with a*holes.

I would prefer that these and similar terms be banned from subject lines in the name of civility.

If I find that someone has a pattern of using language that I find offensive, the ignore feature works nicely if it comes to that. Language reveals their biases and I would rather know them and choose myself whether their thoughts contribute to the overall dialog or not.

[Lizz612]

142. I'm a young'un

18, and respect what feminist have done for women like me.
Have you heard of the term "third wave feminism"? Sex and the City was cited to me as an example of third wave feminism. Women accepting that they have been sexualized and using it as power. I'm not sure where I stand on this but would like to hear any thoughts you have. PM me if this gets locked please.

[Woodstock]

150. Your position is a good one - if the subject lines

could be kept civil toward all groups at DU, that would be a good thing.

[Crunchy Frog]

159. Actually, it is my understanding

that the term "bitch slap" refers to a woman hitting a man. It may be offensive nonetheless, or I may be under the wrong impression, but just wanted to let you know.

[slinkerwink]

168. no, it's about the man slapping the woman

[jpgray]

129. Are you KIDDING me!? NO.

Apparently DU entered crazytown overnight! Dave Chapelle fans, for example, would have to all be summarily banned.

[WillyBrandt]

131. I'm Rick James, b___h!

[Rationality]

144. And this is exactly what I'm talking about

Next we can still say bizitch, then bananatizinich...

[CrownPrinceBandar]

149. Here's a crazy idea...

since we are Democratic Ungerground why don't we do the democratic thing and put it to a vote?

[WillyBrandt]

151. Just did. It was locked--but ended with 85% against.

I understand Skinner's thinking in locking it--make it official, do it after enough discussion--but there it is.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

158. Damn, missed it....

see what you get for taking a shower! Agaist the ban, or against the use of the word?

[WillyBrandt]

164. 85% against banning

[VelmaD]

160. Bad idea for a couple of reasons

One, any poll will be skewed by the low percentage of members who vote in it...you just aren't gonna get all 42000 DUers to express an opinion.

Second, just because the majority votes for something doesn't make it ok. That's why we have this silly thing in the US called respect for the rights of the minority.

[slinkerwink]

167. and that's why this shouldn't be put to a vote, but should

be decided by Skinner himself.

[UrbScotty]

153. You know what gets me? The 'F' word.

Especially when it's in all caps.

[Khephra]

155. no

You combat hateful speech with enlighted speech, not censorship.

Plus a lot of this is modern comedy that's being referenced. Would be have stopped Carlin or Pryor quoting on DU if they had been majorly active during their prime-times?

[Lizz612]

166. Thank you khephra

[Mari333]

169. no. I say it all the time and Im a feminist. n/t

[Skinner]

170. Please continue discussion in thread #6

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1358069&mesg_id=1358069

I'm locking.