What is exactly does libertarian propose as its ideals?

[jerryskid]

[kalian]

1. Here ya go....

http://www.lp.org/issues/

Enjoy.

[Pithlet]

2. Ugh

Read their section on Poverty and Welfare made me want to :puke: Free market? These people are just as bad as the conservative movement. There was only so much of that site I could stomach.

[kalian]

3. Actually...conservative pukes....

want to have "faith based" organizations control all this...
Which is worse? I think its quite obvious.

[Pithlet]

6. How is that different?

They want to remove all safety nets. They don't seem to care as much who takes up the slack, is all. Either way, it is just as damaging. They may be more on our side with certain civil issues, but what does that matter if no one can enjoy those freedoms because our infrastructure has been destroyed by their ideals? Repubs and Libertarians seem to be two sides of the same coin, to me.

[Touchdown]

4. A return to feudalism and oligarchy.

A property owner will let you piss on his fence if you pay him, moving pig farms next to your house, worshipping money and property over any semblance of humanity, giving minorities the freedom of choice in jobs, housing, etc, and letting whites not hire them and keep them out of the apts...stuff like that.:eyes:

They are an oxymoron. "Individualists of the World, UNITE!"

[bearfartinthewoods]

5. hey....it's a GREAT philosophy

except for the details.

ahhhh...the devil is always in the details.

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. And when you think about it, it's pretty amazing how they leached off

the Democratic party for so long. They seduced Dems when they said they were pro-drug deregulation, and they seduced Repubs when they said they're pro free market. Truth be told, they're just anarchists in disguise.

[leftyandproud]

8. nonsense

They are simply being consistent. Let adults be free to do whatever they choose. People are free to be idiots if they choose, and if they choose to do stupid things like heroin, they die. If they choose to turn down qualified black employees, they will get the sh!t boycotted against them, and will have to hire less qualified whites--meaning their profits go down in the end and they will end up bankrupt. This is the idea...Your decisions have consequences, even without government punishment.

[arewethereyet]

9. quite true

people love to swat at libertarian thought without ever actually thinking about it. The more you consider it,the better it is until it comes too close to whichever sacred cow is ones preference. Then it becomes crap.

We could do with a lot fewer sacred cows in the herd.

[Pithlet]

10. Except that

sometimes others suffer when people are free to be idiots. People who are free to discriminate affect those they discriminate against. How many companies went bankrupt in the past because of racism before the civil rights movement? Getting rid of the public schools means everyone is free to educate their children however they want....those who can afford it, that is. Lose your job, because your employer was free to fire you for no good reason? You're free to starve to death unless you're lucky enough to have family who can help you, or belong to a church who has the resources to help you. Are you free to call the police for help because the adults next door are free to blast their music at 3 in the morning? And how about the nearby factory that pollutes the water and belches carcinogens into the air? People will still buy their products; no boycott will change anything like that.

I could go on. Libertarianism is a fantasy world. Nothing more. It is the communism of the right. It sounds good until you spend 5 minutes actually paying attention to human nature.

Edit: I just realized that you may have been describing libertarianism and not defending it. If so, I apologize for the rant. Although I think it is pretty accurate where libertarians are concerned.

[arewethereyet]

11. freedom with three simple limits

you cannot infringe on the life, liberty or property of another.

Apply that criteria to your scenarios. It becomes reasonable.

In Virginia my employer is already free to fire me and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Pithlet]

14. How

do you impose those limits without laws? Who enforces those laws? Who pays the people that enforce those laws? Who makes sure those laws are enforced properly, and who is paying THEM. How do we make sure that companies aren't polluting us and killing us without laws, and people to enforce them? Seems to me we're getting farther and farther away from Libertarianism as those concerns are actually addressed. And it becomes apparent just how much society would fall apart under Libertarian uber-freedom fantasy land.

And it does not become reasonable because you didn't address much in my post. What about education? Doesn't everyone have the right to one? What happens if the Libertarians gain control and gut them? How do the poor educate their kids? What about social and safety net programs like welfare? What happens when the charities aren't enough? What happens if you're atheist and poor?

I'm glad you're perfectly okay with employers firing you for any good reason. It's good for those of us who aren't gay, or a minority, or atheist, to name a few non-reasons. They don't have to worry about being unjustly fired as much. If you happen to be any one of those things, and are still okay with being fired for those reasons, then I guess that's good for you. But, don't presume that everyone would or should be happy about that. There is no good reason to allow employers to fire for those reasons. Allowing them to do so only harms others. Preventing them from doing so makes it easier for those of us who've been marginalized in society to make a living, who in turn pay taxes and contribute to society. Get rid of discrimination laws in the name of freedom? How utterly absurd.

[corporatewhore]

12. I saw a libertarian at a peace rally he is also for gay marriage

and doesnt like freetrade but then again he also wants to privatise everything under the sun

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. It's a great system for anyone who can afford to

buy everything they need. Rich people get absolute control over what they own and can party down with drugs! And they get to become even richer because they don't have to pay minimum wage or provide benefits! Woohoo!

The idea that the Great Almighty and Infallible God Market Forces will kindly provide for ordinary people by causing unscrupulous companies to go out of business is sheer fantasy. If that were the case, WalMart would have gone broke. And polluters will arouse public wrath and go out of business--just like all those Pittsburgh steel companies did before clean air laws were enacted.

If you want to see a libertarian paradise, one with absolute freedom for employers and employees alike, no environmental or labor laws, almost no public services except for police and military, low taxes, little or no public education, and all-private health care, try...El Salvador or any one of a number of other Third World countries.

As I hear, El Salvador is an absolute paradise if you're one of the Fourteen Families who run everything. The rest of the people either live miserably or are dependent on remittances from relatives working in the U.S.

Basically libertarians are extreme economic reactionaries and social Darwinists who sugar-coat their heartless and bratty attitude by claiming to be "pro-choice on everything," especially drugs and abortion.