Occupation Apologists will you..

[corporatewhore]

Take up the White Oil Mans Burden and enlist to carry out the glorious duty of colonialism or would your prefer some poor kid to do it for you

[rucky]

1. Well ya know... it's more complicated than that...

Just kidding.

great poll!

:yourock:

[strategery blunder]

2. Post this at freeperville

See how THEY respond.

[sangh0]

3. I would volunteer to go to Iraq

*IF* there was a plan that sounded like it had a chance of sucess.

I'm 45, so I couldn't go as a soldier, which I wouldn't do even if I were younger, but I would go with an NGO.

I think there's a bit of hypocrisy coming from some people who use a concern for Iraqi civilians in their argument sagainst war, but seem unwilling to do anything to help them.

[Old and In the Way]

4. You think so?

"I think there's a bit of hypocrisy coming from some people who use a concern for Iraqi civilians in their argument sagainst war, but seem unwilling to do anything to help them."

I agree. The greater crime was not getting Saddam, but having no plan to fix everything that we've done to break Iraq over the past 35 years.

[IrateCitizen]

5. Dichotomy of thought apparently exists on the left, too

And here, for all this time, I thought it was the sole domain of the right wing....

Not everyone who is advocating staying in Iraq in some form is an advocate of occupation. Some of us might actually have a desire to see Iraq rebuild its infrastructure and pursue its own path to self-determination -- but realize that it is currently in some pretty dire straights and is in desperate need of outside help, primarily in the area of monetary aid.

Water treatment plants cost money. Power generating facilities cost money. Public infrastructure costs money. Maintaining control of civil society to the extent that girls can venture out their front doors w/o serious fear of being raped costs money. Last I checked, Iraq didn't really have any money. Nor did they have any of the other things I listed above, primarily thanks to the sanctions and invasion that we visited upon them.

Do I support the military occupation? Not in the least. But I also recognize that there is no easy black-and-white solution to this problem. What I would propose is a UN team to head up the short-term political needs of Iraq that would function primarily as an intermediary between the various factions of the country, helping them to work together and figure out what kind of future government would work best for them -- and go about helping them make it a reality. WRT monetary investment, clearly the overwhelming majority of funds should come from the United States -- but the US should not have any role in administering those funds outside of a single international voice that weighs no more than any of the other voices involved. Haliburton, Bechtel, and all other outside firms favored in US contracts should be thrown out on their collective asses. Funds should be concentrated on a community-development level, with citizen councils (possibly the bedrock of a future government) leading the efforts to take on the bigger infrastructure problems like power generation and water treatment. NGO's with training in these kinds of things would be invaluable in identifying people on the ground that can be trusted, and working with those people.

ON EDIT -- I'd also immediately abandon those plans to build 14 permanent bases in Iraq, and go even further by beginning to dismantle our military "footprint" in the entire region.

Of course, there would be much more to it than this, but it should be clear that this is NOT a military solution. If civil society could be restored, many of the security needs could vanish almost overnight. Iraq is a country that has large numbers of trained engineers, scientists, technicians and skilled laborers. By ASSISTING them in rebuilding THEIR infrastructure, we could see unemployment shrink dramatically and the possibility of a civil society take hold in Iraq.

Cutting and running is as foolish of an option as continuing to try and impose our military will on the country. Both proposals are indicative of groups who operate more out of pure ideology than the concept of just finding things that work, and changing approaches that don't. It's this pure "cut and run" strategy that shows that this behavior is as common on the left as it is on the right.

[wasichu]

10. sounds racist to me

Iraqis can run their own country on their own cultural terms and it isn't our business.
They are not stupid and they can figure out their own future.

[sangh0]

14. Breaking News

"Iraqi" is a nationality, not a race.

[IrateCitizen]

15. Reading comprehension 101

Iraqis can run their own country on their own cultural terms and it isn't our business.

Please point out to me the instance that I stated, or even indirectly implied, that Iraqis were not capable of running their own country. Also, please tell me how providing them with the capital that they DO NOT CURRENTLY HAVE is somehow "racist".

They are not stupid and they can figure out their own future.

See above question, and repeat the exercise.

[Mari333]

6. There are poor white kids in the war who were sent also n/t

[ACK]

7. there are no poor white kids in Iraq

what a load borderline racist crap.

I have always thought we need to get out like this.

1. Go to the UN and try to make the effort a needed effort to rebuild Iraq after we blew the damn place to hell. Reduce US troop involvement by the amount of contributions. Offer to give our allies a freakin' voice.

2. Rebuild the electricity, water and the rest of the infrastructure we destroyed.

3. As soon as we have the infrastructure, hold elections quick.

4. As soon as he get elections, get the fuck out of dodge.

Get out of there but do not abandon our responsibility to put the place back together in some sort of shape before we abandon it.

Try for goodness sakes to get Arab countries in there for a real coalition and make this is a real international effort.

If not get the get the infrastructure up quick hold elections and run like hell.

_

[Mari333]

9. My stepson is a reservist who is a poor white kid who is in Baghdad

and he does not want to be there. The poll states only poor Latinos and black soldiers. There are plenty of poor white soldiers over there also.

[RichardRay]

12. None? Really?

No poor white kids in any U.S. units deployed to Iraq? Are you quite certain of that? From what source does that surmise come?

NB - I'm pretty damn certain you're wrong, but then, maybe you know something I don't.

[JI7]

16. he says the suggestion there are NO poor whites is CRAP

he/she is responding to the original poster which talks about white mans oil and sending poor black and latinos to war for it without any mention of poor whites of which there are many who are also sent into war.

[IrateCitizen]

13. Don't look at it from such a "Federalist" POV, ACK...

One thing that needs to be acknowledged is how, in the aftermath of the invasion and toppling of the Baathist government, there actually WERE places in which democratic process was springing up. The best example of this was the way in which citizens councils started trying to work out the problems of the citizens of towns and city districts.

Of course, these groups were largely ignored by the CGA, because they didn't fit in with the agenda of exploitation and privatization dreamed up by the fellows at AEI and Heritage. But they COULD be a big key in actually helping Iraq to become a civil society again.

Don't look at it as up to "us" to rebuild "their" infrastructure. Instead, realize that Iraq WAS an industrialized nation at one time, and as such, still has scores of competent engineers, scientists, technicians and skilled laborers -- many of whom are currently out of work. Would it not make sense to deal through the citizens' councils, and through them generate massive rebuilding projects essentially headed by and carried out by Iraqis, only funded by others? Do you think that such an employment initiative might have benefits in the realm of lowering crime and helping to establish true internal security (once again, BY Iraqis)?

WRT the elections question, see my post #5 above.

[ACK]

35. Damn good point IrateCitizen thanks!!

It makes good sense but we should at least pay for it.

You are right that we should not ship people from South Asia (this is happening btw) into Iraq to do the work of the rebuilding effort when the Iraqis are right there in need of work. No, I am not talking just "grunt" work but the real tasks of planning and designing and engineering the future and the structure of the country.

I like the UN team thing as well.

_

[RichardRay]

8. Just a question for clarification

Is anyone who calls for anything other than instant and complete withdrawal from Iraq with no subsequent involvement an 'Occupation Apologist'?

[The Magistrate]

11. Apparently, Sir

"It's quiet in the old town of Tombstone today."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[sangh0]

17. Of course not.

Anyone who disagrees with corporatewhore on ANYTHING is an apologist

[HFishbine]

31. And..

anybody who disagrees with Sangh0 is a purist. ;)

[IrateCitizen]

32. In my best Michael Kelso voice...

BURN!

:evilgrin:

[sangh0]

36. IC, when did I ever call you a "purist"?

Or is it that I always agree with you?

I forget.

[IrateCitizen]

18. In the initial poster's mind, yes.

But don't put yourself under the opinion that such binary thought processes are the norm on the "far left", because they are not.

As evidenced by a few other posts here, there are still some people who were vigorously against the military aggression, but recognize that it cannot be undone by the simple act of "pulling out" without unleashing complete chaos and anarchy on the region. Such a recognition is also clearly different from those on the opposite side who do not recognize what a complete failure the continued attempts to propose "military solutions" to the current problems truly are.

[Mari333]

19. Its fairly easy to make statements about soldiers lives when

you have no one invested in this bloodbath. Sort of like playing the game RISK , and not being affected by it in the least because you dont have someone who could die over there.
Tonight, you can order a pizza and mull over the occupation. We will sit and wait for an email from a kid in Baghdad and hope he isnt dead.
http://www.bringthemhomenow.com

[IrateCitizen]

22. Mari, while I can try to understand your anger and frustration...

... I would have hoped that by now it would be clear that I do NOT support the ongoing military occupation. In fact, I think that nothing could be better for Iraq as a whole than for the overwhelming majority of troops to be brought home immediately and the peacekeeping force be VASTLY internationalized.

But that doesn't mean that we should completely abandon the people of Iraq, either. With the hell that we (meaning the US) have helped put them through for the past 12+ years, I would think that we owe SOMETHING to them to help them get some kind of civil society started.

Please read my post #5 to see what I'm talking about, and to realize that I am NOT in any way saying that your stepson should be kept over there as part of the ongoing occupation.

[Mari333]

26. Gotcha. get the troops out, change the strategy now.

Throw everything positive we can in there and stop using our kids to chest thump our way to victory aka more civil war.
That includes the Kerry camp coming up with something positive to throw at the US public now. Ive had a lot of people say to me
AND WHAT WILL KERRY DO ABOUT THIS?
I havent heard much from him about this, or his strategy.

[JI7]

29. bring in more arabs and muslims

kerry's goal is to take the american face off the occupation because you have to show the iraqi people you want to help them rather than try to take control of their resources . of course this is not possible at the moment as bush's goal IS to take resources and not about helping the people.

but bringing in arabs and muslims to help will be good. and some other international troops. this should allow some of the americans to get out of there. we need to help financially. and may get the iraqis to be more trusting of the international team there as they will see them as really wanting to help.

but kerry's goal concerning alternative sources of energy is even more important. it concerns the bigger picture and a long term goal. he understands our dependence on foreign oil is a national security issue because it often gets americans to support bad regimes such as saddam's just because of oil. alternative sources of energy would mean more job creation also and in turn help the economy and the environment because of cleaner ways of getting our energy.

[RichardRay]

33. Mari, I respect your anguish

but I think your thinking is somewhat off kilter.

Do you have an opinions only about things in which you currently have a personal investment? Are opinions you may have in places where you don't have such an investment invalid purely for that reason?

I have plenty of folks invested in the bloodbath. They're the folks I knew would end up there as soon as I heard about the invasion. No, they're not my children - I have no children and won't at this point. Does that mean I am disallowed from having an opinion on this subject?

[Mari333]

41. If you had a child, you would not want them in Iraq.

You can have an opinion, its a First Amendment right according to the Constitution of the United States. and I can have mine.
http://www.bringthemhomenow.com

[sangh0]

40. Ah I see

You are right, and I put you in the group that isn't engaging in the binary thought process.

I was just a little put-out at how you forget to mention that some of those who disagree with me are NOT "purists". You left out the "fringe left", the "loony left", the Freepers, and the plain ole sstupid and ignorant.

:evilgrin:

[IrateCitizen]

42. I forgot to include the <mischevious> tag

I thought the :evilgrin: would have given it away -- kind of like how HFishbine gave you a ;-).

I forget that humor doesn't always come across as such on these boards.

[KittyWampus]

20. Nice Two Dimensional Thinking

It'd be appropriate if we lived in a comic strip.

[The Magistrate]

21. Two Dimensional, Certainly, Ma'am

Whether thinking is involved is a pretty question for discussion....

"Doubleplusgood Duckspeaker!"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[JVS]

23. I didn't vote, because I'm not an occupation apologist

I think it is time to go and use our B-52s to drop food and medicine rather than bombs.

[IrateCitizen]

24. I heard Howard Zinn make the same remark repeatedly

"Instead of sending over planes and ships filled with bombs, we should be sending them filled with food and medicines."

[JVS]

28. I was not aware of that. I think staying there is unproductive

any good thing that we could possibly accomplish (i.e setting up a Democracy) would be instantly delegitimized to the people by the fact that it was done by our occupation force and toppled the minute we leave. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[IrateCitizen]

30. Take a moment to think outside of the box...

Everyone equates "staying there" with "staying there militarily". But, what if you were able to find a third way, one that did not involve remaining there militarily, but that also did not abandon Iraq to whatever cruel fate would surely await it as it collapses into anarchy and near-certain civil war? What if this approach might actually have the capability of fostering true grassroots governance, in whatever form the Iraqis decide for themselves?

Please see my post #5, above. Let me know what you think.

[The Magistrate]

25. An Important Milestone Seems To Have Been Passed

There are more comments in reply than votes in the poll....

"It's quiet in the old town of Tombstone today."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Piperay]

27. It's not that simple

you cannot answer honestly to a poll like that.

[NightTrain]

34. "Black or Latino?"

That ain't what the freepers call them, if you get my drift.

[RichardRay]

37. Was this PURE flamebait??

One inflammatory post, a bunch of responses and nothing from the original poster? Seems like flamebait to me....

[sangh0]

38. Ya think?

:shrug:

[corporatewhore]

39. The original poster (me) got distracted by

other flamebait that i started :evilgrin: and a paper i gotta do