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For You 'Religious Folk' Who Back The Current Pledge Of Allegiance

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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 07:33 PM
Original message
For You 'Religious Folk' Who Back The Current Pledge Of Allegiance
Edited on Fri Mar-26-04 07:35 PM by matcom
Note: i have nothing personal against religion or 'religious folk' just as long as you don't "preach" to me and society. respect ME and i will respect YOU. thaks.

i would like to offer you some HISTORY. i would like you to READ it and then make your INTELLIGENT arguments.

i am personally TIRED AS HELL of the preaching that goes on here concerning this issue. don't "PREACH" to me, rather dispute the origin of this and post intelligently.

thank you.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. *sigh*
another 'preacher' who wants to 'preach'

yeah, YOU will last long :eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. how exactly am i 'preaching'?
read the fucking thread THEN make your argument

what i post are FACTS

what YOU got?
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. care to make an 'intelligent' argument?
or is that too far above you? :eyes:

too bad you cant' get private messages yet :eyes:

i tried. don't worry :eyes:
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. care to respond?
or are you showing your TRUE colors?

BREING.IT.ON.
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tnlefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. I haven't uttered "under God" one time that I have said the pledge since
Edited on Fri Mar-26-04 07:42 PM by tnlefty
this started. It bugs the hell out of me that people who are of my professed faith feel such a need to force it on me, along with hanging the commandments in government buildings. I have my own church, set of beliefs and I don't think that it is my right to force them upon someone else or vice versa.

I can't make an intelligent argument or post...I was just trying to be the first post in your thread!

damn - I missed it!!!
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. The kids are supposed to say the pledge daily in Texas.
You have to bring a note from home or something to not say it. Seems to me that requiring the pledge with the terms "under God" is religious coercion. They can't have it both ways, either remove the two words, or do not require the pledge. I'd rather they remove the two words. To me, the pledge is about a current state of belief of allegiance, not a tradition.

There is so much hatefilled religiosity where I live.
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A J Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. We've got a law like that in Wisconsin
The pledge doesn't bother me that much. What bugs the hell out of me is the micromanagement from our state legislature who made a law telling each school district that it HAD to recite the pledge. Let the local officials decide.

As for the pledge, I think they should be taken it out, but I will fight for other things (jobs) before that.
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bain_sidhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. Good review of the underlying principle on Findlaw

Cardozo law professor Marci Hamilton weighs in on the controversial
case that asks the Supreme Court to decide whether having the "under
God" pledge of allegiance in public schools violates the Establishment
Clause. Hamilton explains the tenor of the recent oral argument before
the Court, argues that there is indeed an Establishment Clause
violation, and argues that a decision to the contrary would not only be
a legal error, but also lower the U.S.'s credibility in the
international community.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20040325.html
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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. I refuse to say the pledge and "under God" has nothing to do with it
rather, it has turned into a piece of patriotic propaganda.

I object to having to say anything, much less pledging allegiance to anything, anywhere. I know, I know, techically I don't have to but there is immense social pressure to do this.

I actually like the words "under God" as they allow me to subordinate the interests of the state (like empire) to the will of God (which I perceive to be in conflict with the jingoism today). I could see why other people would disagree with me though, and respect those opinions.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. The Words "Under God" Can Be Interpreted Any Way One Wants
Why relinquish our Higher Self to the Fundies?

The term that the Founding Fathers would most likely substitute for "Under God" would be something like "Gudided By Providence".
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. they didn't 'substitute' anything because THEY didn't write it
there is NO substitution

not needed

not included

'guided by nobody'
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. Well, Reality Is Definately Guided By Something,
because unless the Universe operates according to certain discernable Principles there would be no Science... or Reality for that matter. Without an Organization there'd just be Chaos.

And my point was to explain what the Founding Fathers conception of "God" was... what was prevalent amongst those who participate in the birth of our Nation.

If God means the abstract Realm of Number... then that's fine...

The Word God can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean.

It sucks that Fundies try and impose their own infantile, narrow view of the word on everyone else.

I for one, see God as Consciousness.. that is the Primordial Mind Stuff that makes up the Universe.

Therefore I don't have a problem with saying "under God".
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MAlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
44. ok...
but i think a six year old forced to say the pledge doesn't have the mental capacities to come to your conclusion, and will just assume that to believe in g-d is to believe in the g-d that his friends believe in or whatever...it's coercive
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klyon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
42. under money
would probably be more to the point

KL
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. Matcom
Edited on Fri Mar-26-04 08:08 PM by Az
You can only argue a case so much. Sometimes a group is simply on a different frequency and your means will not and cannot reach them. It is sometimes tactically avantageous to step back and simply rely on being friendly with those you disagree with and hope that getting to know you will be the lever it takes to make them reconsider their position.
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. thanks AZ
but i can't do that with THIS issue.

i refuse to have a battle of witts with an unarmed person and am sick of the "preaching" here without factual backup.

thanks though :hi:
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Winning
Its not a question of being right. We are dealing with issues that some will not accept our definitions of right and wrong. Pounding the issue will simply cause them to reject us all the more.

How do you change what a person believes? Do you think repeating facts that seem obvious to you will convince someone that is not using the same basis as you? We have to step back and consider the nature of how we form beliefs. We have to understand that telling a person that they can walk through a wall will not make them believe it.
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. agreed....BUT
there is a thread here with almost 300 posts debating the issue of 'Under God' in the pledge.

nowhere

NOWHERE

does the original poster acknowledge that he/she even KNOWS the FACTS as to how the Pledge came about.

THAT bothers me GREATLY

it will continue to.

you notice, as of this moment, i gots me NO fundies willing to challenge the FACTS behind this affirmation!

i know its early but frankly, i don't expect a lot of 'intelligent' dialogue

unfortunatly..
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I understand
I know its frustrating. I also know that you do not change a person's beliefs by telling them they are wrong.

The way to make a difference for some is not by argumentation. Rather it is by example. They believe what they feel. Arguing does not change what they believe. It only raises their defenses and guard towards you and your arguments. Consider how to approach these people. Find the path by which you can change their minds.

Allow them to know you. Be strong in who you are and what you believe. Give them the room to be their self as well. And in knowing you they may manage to shatter their beliefs about what they think those things for which you stand represent.

If you want to make a person distrust you, tell them you are honest. If you want to make a person trust you allow them to determine it for themself by letting them get to know you.
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. not trying to change ANYONE'S beliefs
but i want them to back them up. i have been (yes personally) "Preached" to regarding this issue.

but, when pressed for facts, been ignored. i am tired of this crap. THAT is why this post exists.

i don't give a damn if you believe that door knobs are dieties... that is YOUR business.

i accept that.

but IF you tell me that I must follow your 'belief' cause it is 'the right way' you better damn well BACK IT UP

what i tend to get here is 'post and run' bullshit that starts flame wars

sick of the bullshit
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. I disagree
friendly my ass. Back before such shit was illegal they'd pour moulten lead down your throat, draw and quarter you, set you on fire...etc. etc. to get you to see the light and accept Jesus as your saviour. They continue to attempt to force their dogma on us today albiet in more innocous ways...and if the fuckers could get away with it they'd do the same sort of shit they have historically done.

They aren't my friends...as such I won't treat them in a friendly fashion. They are dangerous religious extremists no different than Osama Bin Laden and his buddies in the Taliban and that's how I'll treat them.

RC
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Tell you what
I will be there to knock the head off the first idiot that tries to pour lead down your throat. But I suspect we have made some progress in this society and we may not be in that level of danger just now.

Yes they continue to try to indoctrinate others in their beliefs. And as you noted it is far less obnoxious than it once was. As their tactics ease up, ours can consider other paths as well. While we must still struggle to demand our rights and acceptance (to hell with tolerance) we need not use tactics we would use against those trying to kill us. There are many that understand that their claim to the existance of god is no longer as certain a topic as it was during the Dark Ages.

Yes the systems and processes that lie at the heart of such institutions still contains danger. But these people are not our enemies. They are our fellow citizens and democrats. They are our friends and neighbors. And many of them are on the barricades defending the rights we hold dear along side us.
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. Well I must applaud your gracious nature....
Edited on Sat Mar-27-04 04:50 AM by RapidCreek
Having had a relative who was castigated by her teacher and forced to sit in the hall because she refused to say "under god" or participate in the "morning prayer" in her third grade class, I don't believe that we are as far removed from the days of old as you might believe. Was this friendly? The act of a good neighbor? Or the act of an evil, vicious, woman...who used her power to forcibly indoctrinate children with her own disingenuously practiced religious ideology through bullying and hate, a woman who hid her ultimate goal of domination behind a curtain of false morality...while accepting a salary payed by the tax dollar of the parents whose children she was victimizing?

The thing is...this campaign of dominance is like a chronic disease. It's practitioners seek to assault us with a club made of dogma at every turn....constantly looking for any break in resolve....while hammering away at the concepts of Democracy and freedom which distinguish our country from those they oddly claim to hate. I take this very seriously. I'd take it even more seriously if I were a Christian, as the prime beneficiaries of the concept of separation of church and state are in fact those who practice religion.

Someone who claims I am amoral because i don't subscribe to their religious ideology is not my friend....they may be my neighbor but they are not my friend. Someone who affords me the same respect I afford them is my friend....and may be my neighbor as well. You see the suggestion that a person is amoral simply because he or she will not supplicate themselves to another's respective religious ideology is the same as calling that person a second class citizen....not equal and not worthy of the same respect afforded those who will or do. This is the sort of attitude of a Friend and neighbor who one day waves at you across the fence and comments on what a nice day it is...and the next reports you to the SS. This is the sort of neighbor who sees nothing wrong with the local authorities forcing you to wear a yellow star on your coat. This is the sort of neighbor who sits idly by, with a sanguine self righteousness as you are marched off for a ride in a cattle car and a shower in Zyklon B.

I just have to wonder....how many Jews had a similar philosophy to your own in the 1930's. It doesn't happen all at once my friend...it happens bit by bit....baby steps...an inch at a time....untill the damn breaks....and by that time it is to fuckin late. If you think you have given up an inch...well, by the time you notice it, you have in reality, given up ten miles. When you see a nut beating on the face of a damn with a claw hammer you might chuckle and role your eyes...I can guarantee you though, that the dam tender won't be as charitable....and he won't be because he understands that a broken dam starts with a crack.

I don't care if they are my neighbors....neighbors they may be, fellow Democrats they may be...my allegiance to them ends when their actions make clear that their allegiance to me depends not on being their neighbor, fellow Democrat or fellow citizen but acceptance of and acquiescence to their assault upon my most firmly held convictions. I haven't forgotten what happens to those who have allowed themselves to be cowed incrementally and eventually victimized because of thinking like yours. The same scenario has occurred over and over through out history....and those who forget the history of past victimizations are condemned to be victims in the future.

I appreciate your good natured attitude....I for one believe that such attitudes can be quite dangerous to ones continued well being when applied to subjects such as this.

RC

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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #31
41. I am not suggesting
Edited on Sat Mar-27-04 08:42 AM by Az
we lay down and take the oppression. Fight. Hell yes fight. But fight using our minds. Not reacting blindly.

The oppression we face is not quite the same as most of the other civil rights issues our nation has faced. We oursleves are unlike any other oppressed minority. We bearly even are able to organize ourself. We have no means of readily recognizing each other. We have a natural tendency to reject the social support groups that other minorities used to leverage their case. And people are largely unaware of even when they are offending us. A simple sneeze will initiate an avalanche of what many of us consider to be a form of indoctrination in this society.

What must happen at this stage of development in our society is that we atheists must start standing up and making ourselves noticed. We must positively let people know we are here and when they step on our toes. There will of course be those that will continue to believe that we are evil. But there are those that will not. And our actions will define far more than anything you can imagine. By taking these steps we can define how we are percieved.

We may say that our rights are inalienable. But this is not true. It should be. But if enough people decided that We The People means believers only then they can take our rights away. The constitution is just a peace of paper. They make white uot for changing things on paper. What we need to change is people's minds. And unfortunately what people believe is not always defined by logic and reason. What people believe of others, their prejudices and fears, are defined by what they experience. If their only experience is what the clergy tell them about us being evil then that is how they will see us in the absense of a counter example to shatter their claims.
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Eroshan Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Amen to that
The christxian taliban would have us burned at the stake tomorrow if they could get away with it. But beware my friends they are finding chinks in our armor.
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
14. I have just one thing to say to you about that!
This very religious, active, LIBERAL Christian agrees with you 100%.

My religion is my religion! My belief is my belief. I don't even necessarily expect those who adhere to the same beliefs to follow the Book of Discipline (United Methodist) without some question and/or dissent. (I certainly don't). I don't want you to tell me I can't hold my own beliefs, so why in the world (or in the country, anyway) is it alright for me to force you to adhere to anything I believe?

I don't think I'm alone in that at DU, either, matcom.
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. THANK YOU Polmaven
you ROCK

i respect YOUR beliefs and thank you for respecting MINE!

:loveya:
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. You're welcome, matcom
Let me add that I also see nothing wrong with those of us here that ARE religious having discussions regarding our beliefs without being "preached to" or put down by the non-believers.

I don't think that you have ever been one of those folks, so i know you are being very consistent.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
23. There was great controversy of whether Bellamy or his assistant
had actually written the pledge. The magazine backed the assistant. The issue was finally settled when an investigator hired by the Bellamy family's congressmen *determined* that Bellamy was the author.

Reeks, if you ask me, 'cause it really looked like the assistant was really the author of the pledge. All this info is courtesy of an ancient American Heritage magazine I read while I was laid up sick. (I really need my scanner hooked up.)
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jo35042 Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
27. thanks for posting that link. I knew the history, but
was missing the specifics.

I am a Sunday School teacher and a member in reasonably good standing of my church and i am perfectly capable of having an opinion on this issue that is based in fact.

I have no problem at all with the words "under God". My problem is with cramming them down anyone's throat and the fact that they were included as an "exclusive" move against the perceived threat of the Commies under the bed.:bounce:
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
29. Read more history ... The Pledge does not violate the Establishment
clause. So while the current Pledge is not what Rev. Bellamy had in mind, it is constitutionally sound.


The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment is not at odds with the current Pledge of Allegiance, or James Madison's "Memorial and Remonstrance", Thomas Jeffersons "A Virginia Bill for Religious Freedom", or the Declaration of Independence.

It is the absurdly broad interpretation of the Establishment Clause urged by Mr. Newdou that is at odds with the texts and historical facts. Would Mr Newdou argue with a straight face that Jefferson's Bill For Religious Freedom, which ensured religious freedom and forbade the establishment of religion, was itself a violation of the Establishment Clause because it stated that almighty God was the source of our rights?

From 1776 to 1785, Jefferson worked to have legislation enacted to forbid the establishment of religion in Virginia. Madison also worked to have this legislation passed, and just a few years later Madison initiated the Bill of Rights to the US Constitution.

It is absurd to hold that the Establishment Clause of the US COnstitution is something completely different than what Madison and Jefferson wrote, and what the Courts have relied on since Everson vs. Board of Education (1947) as the best evididence as to the meaning of the establishment clause. If Jefferson is not to be relied on for the meaning of the establishment clause, what then of the "Wall of Separation" doctrine?






http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/vaact.html

The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom
Thomas Jefferson, 1786

Well aware that Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power...




Try this mind experiment:
Suppose next month the legislature of the State of Virginia were to pass Thomas Jefferson's "Virginia Bill for Religious Freedom" in its original language. Would the courts would rule it unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause? Suppose the same were done with Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance?








http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/remon.html


James Madison

Memorial and Remonstrance -1785
*** Quote ***

To the Honorable the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia
A Memorial and Remonstrance

We the subscribers, citizens of the said Commonwealth, having taken into serious consideration, a Bill printed by order of the last Session of General Assembly, entitled "A Bill establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," and conceiving that the same if finally armed with the sanctions of a law, will be a dangerous abuse of power, are bound as faithful members of a free State to remonstrate against it, and to declare the reasons by which we are determined. We remonstrate against the said Bill,


1. Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considerd as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governour of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign.....




And let's not forget this one:


http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html



The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
Presented by the Indiana University School of Law—Bloomington

The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Try this very simple exercise
Imagine if the founding fathers wanted a divisive nation. One where a minority having a different belief than the majority are excluded in numerous ways including having their children told to recite a pledge to that which they disagree with. This is the nation created by the inclusion of Under God and a 1000 other cuts that atheists have endured.

Now imagine a nation that is inclusive of all. One Nation. Indivisible. With Liberty and Justice for All. In this one people are encouraged to pursue their own paths. People of different beliefs live side by side. Children are taught by their parents the beliefs they see fit to pass on to them.

You can dance around the logic all you want. Under God is devisive. It was established as a means to test people for their beliefs. It is discriminitory.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. The founders did in fact write very similar phrases.
No mind experiment is needed in this case because it did in fact happen. The Declaration, Memorial and Remonstrance, and A Virginia Bill for Religious Freedom were meant to UNITE, and each included statements to the effect that our rights come from the Creator.



If the question "where do our rights come?" from arises, I would agree with the founders that our rights come from god and are not given by government, but only protected by government. You might have a different answer. But the question can not be avoided since "rights" are always being tested. In fact Mr. Newdou seeks to assert a right in this case. Are we forbidden to ask where the right ultimately comes from? Was Jefferson forbidden to write that rights come from the creator? Did A Virginia Bill For Religious Freedom violate itself?, or does Mr. Newdou urge an absurdly broad definition of the establishment clause -one that would make all three of the documents cited above unconstitutional and self-violative.

There will always be differences in opinions and views on fundamental questions that can not be avoided. I would agree that we should not
attempt to use these differences to deny anyone the protections of the law.

If it should ever happen that the majority of the people find that atheism is the more enlightened view, and that rights do not flow from the creator but from some other source (popular consent, tradition, etc.) then the majority may seek to put this view into the law and perhaps replace the non "establishent of religion clause" with a non mention of, or appeal to, a higher power clause.













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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. 5 stars
So you are basically saying that because you can find a means to wiggle the clause in its ok to discriminate against 10% of the population. Sure, atheists are not as enlightened as the believers. So what matter if they are put upon. Its no biggie.

Here is what you can do. 10% of the population is atheistic. As a visual reference to that number why not rip 5 stars off the flag. After all, you want the pledge to be honest don't you? Would probably be a bad idea searing an oathe to god that was a lie. Best discard 5 states worth of citizens or you would be bearing false witness. Pretty sure that is a violation of the 10 commandments. And as the bible suggests (not exactly how I would see it, but then...well you know) if you violate one of the commandments it is as iff you had violated them all.

One nation, indivisible, or under god. As long as you allow atheists to be citizens in your nation, one of these phrases is false.
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. I see the point but.........so what?
Jefferson and Madison had some great ideas and we owe them both a great deal as Americans. But they were not infallible and they lived in an era as unlike our own as theirs was from King Arthur's court.

Let us be guided by our own morality here, our own sense of fair play. The words were clearly put into the pledge due to an anti-communist lynch mob mentality that ruled the day and furthermore they are divisive. They are not needed and thus should be done away with. Pretty simple really.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. I would have no problem with the Pledge being altered if
the majority want it to be altered.


My only reason for writing was to point out the Newdou's argument that it MUST be altered is bunk.


I prefer it the way it is now because I think it reminds our leaders that they are not above all, and that there are rights which we have that do not come from government, and which government has no legitamate authority to deny us.


But if the majority want it the other way, I will not scream that it MUST remain the way it is.
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Fallacious argument
Edited on Sat Mar-27-04 05:12 AM by tkmorris
Many of the rights we enjoy as Americans are designed to protect the minority against tyranny by the majority.

It needs to be changed not because the majority think so but because it isn't inclusive of everyone. It forces some to recite something they do not believe in and there is no point to that. There is no demonstrable harm done to anyone by removing those words. None. Christians can pray as before, and so on.

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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. That's nice...
Edited on Sat Mar-27-04 05:12 AM by RapidCreek
Then why not say that? Why the fuck do you need to bring religion into it? Your religion? Are you special? Are you more special than me? Is your religion more right than mine? Are you and the majority more equal than I am?

You speak in circles...in one breath you suggest we have rights which do not come from a government, and which government has no legitimate authority to deny us. In the next you suggest that the majority has the right to deny me freedom from their religion. Evidently you feel my right to be free of your religion is not one of those which do not come from government, and which government has no legitimate authority to deny us. That right you and the majority have the right to deny me...eh?

How illogical you are.

RC
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Misinformed01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. You are dead wrong
That "under God" does NOT remind people in Government, or anyone else, that they are not above everything. It SHOULD, shouldn't it? However, with this crummy group of reconstructionists (Ashcroft particularly)...the phrase, and their own personal minister (I assume) has given them the feeling of personal power; ie: God is on MY side.

Worse: "God is an American!" (See Mel Gibson's very, very white Jesus who appears to have learned Aramaic in private school)

Think very hard before you assume that the belief in a deity humbles people.



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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Surely it does....that is obvious
Edited on Sat Mar-27-04 05:14 AM by RapidCreek
All your protestations are entertaining but running a stop sing ten times doesn't make it any less illegal. You and your brothers are assaulting my right to be free of your religion. Really you are simply assaulting me, seeking to make yourselves feel superior by alienation of those who won't supplicate to you...the sad thing is...this whole issue has nothing to do with religion...what it has to do with is a psychosis. One which is typified by your need to dominate, a psychosis which clearly you seek to disguise as "faith". Really pretty sad....Using faith as a means by which to live out a vicarious drive to dominate and subjugate those around you.

Perhaps your creator was your God. I have two creators, however...my mother and father.

RC
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Apparently so obvious that you can not provide an argument or
cite any evidence whatever that the Establishment Clause was a renouncement of the Declaration, Memorial and Remonstrance, and A Virginia Bill For Religious Freedom.


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Misinformed01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
38. I am extremely religious
and I think that "under God" needs to be removed from the pledge, and even more...the currency.

I have had no trouble explaining to conservatives that having God's "name" on money is tacky, and that it cheapens the myth of Jesus Christ and what we think he stood for by having it there.

Not one person has been able to argue that.

Stephanie

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