The Gay Marriage Trap

[ilpostino]

Dean just barely avoided it on his answer to Larry King. His initial response was solid: it's a religious issue--or a state issue at best, not a federal issue. But when Mr. Softball asked him how he'd vote, then, on a state ballot, he got squirmy. He's got to learn to say (in fact all the Dems have to learn to say) This is matter for the states to decide, not the federal government. To discuss this further is a distraction from the big issues that will face the next president: fighting terrorism and reviving the American economy.

If pressed by someone trying to nail candidate tail to the wall, the answer should be: "I just answered the question. Let's move on"

[comsymp]

1. Um, OK...

Why?

[grytpype]

3. Why do you think?

Think hard. It has to do with an election in 2004.

[comsymp]

6. Pls elaborate

What I'm clearly incorrectly reading is that you think that Dems should avoid any standard Dem positions on equal rights and follow the Repugs' lead in just dodging the questions. Obviously I've misunderstood so please correct my error???

ON EDIT: And please correct another misunderstanding- when you state that terrorism and the economy are the two "big issues", surely you don't mean that human/equal/civil rights aren't always an issue for Dems?

[ilpostino]

10. Or 1988

Which the elder Bush turned into a referendum on prison furloughs and pledging the flag. If 2004 gets turned into a referendum on gay marriage--we all lose--gays & straights.

[comsymp]

12. Ummm... and if Dems run from it

who wins then?

[grytpype]

2. Yep. Learn from the Repugs.

>If pressed by someone trying to nail candidate tail to the wall, the answer should be: "I just answered the question. Let's move on"

You'll never, ever see a Repug answer a question. A question is just an opportunity to make a bunch of self-serving statements. Do what they do.

[comsymp]

4. See Reply #1

Are you suggesting that Dems mimic Repugs and completely abandon principle?

[dansolo]

5. Larry King was really pressing the question

Normally he isn't quite this persistent. He was really pressing to get Dean to talk about his personal views on the issue, instead of his policy positions. I'm glad that he didn't take the bait.

[janx]

17. Russert tried to do the same thing when he interviewed Dean.

He's getting plenty of practice at how to answer the prying questions.

[Phatfish]

7. he should have answered

or at least I would have answered, "Marriage as a contract between two consenting adults and the federal gov't that has certain rights and responsibilities. If certain religious groups refuse to perform marriages to certain people, then fine, that is their right. However, the federal government must uphold equal rights to all Americans no matter race, creed, color, or sexual orientation." or something like that :) MArriage has only been a religious institution for only a few hundred years. It has always been a property contract. Lets let everyone in.

[wtmusic]

8. Doesn't have to be evasive about it

He's got to learn to be ready for questions like that...it was an uncomfortable moment.

[Paschall]

9. The big issues that will face the next president include...

...fighting terrorism? THERE I think is the trap. How many terrorist attacks has the US had in the past decade? Compare that with terrorist violence in Western Europe--the ETA Basque separatist movement has been killing Spanish politicians, the Corsican nationalists have exploded an average of one bomb a day on the island this year and recently defaced a memorial to Prefet Claude Erignac whom they shot in a cold-blooded assassination in broad daylight in 1998. There has also been terrorist violence in Germany, Britain, and Italy.

I'd like to see us define the issues and put, maybe, education, public health care, energy conservation/independence, and a new push for multilateral foreign policy up there among our top priorities. If you haven't grasped it yet, the "war on terra" is a GOP shell game to recycle taxpayer money through security, PR, defense and other corporations, from whence it eventually finds its way back into GOP campaign coffers. It's called screwing the people.

[ilpostino]

15. Glad you're posting here, Paschall

And not advising one of the Dem candidates to make Americans feel better about 9/11 by explaining Corsican politics to them.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. Well spank my ass and call me Charlie! I always thought equality

was a federal issue! But hey, I'm not trying to cajole a bunch of gay folks into voting for me as though I am their only hope.

Sorry all you realpolitik folks but if he wants this gay woman's vote then he can't ditch the issue as though it is a pariah. There are a million things he can say that are honest, straight forward without sounding like he's squirming. If his straightforwardness about the war (no matter how politically risky the stand is) is acceptable, then being straightforward about equal rights for all Americans should be acceptable as well.

I want Americans in Alabama to enjoy the same freedoms as Americans in states that aren't so homophobic. Not long ago, we were worrying about interracial marriage. I guess many Du'ers are too young to remember all the stands others took so you could play realpolitik on a political bulletin board.

BTW, saying it is a RELIGIOUS issue is NOT what I would want to hear. It isn't. It's dollars, cents, insurance, medical decision making, and a great excuse to get my home furnished for free just like straight folks have done for years immediately prior to divorcing and keeping all the gifts anyway.

[comsymp]

13. As usual

You state things with much more eloquence and passion than I do.
Geesh, remember when being a Democrat actually meant having beliefs???

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. Yes and frankly I think that is where Repubs outshine us

I don't care for their principles but someone does and sees them.

[comsymp]

16. Principles??? Who needs 'em

The object is WINNING, haven't you heard? Hell, let's jettison affirmative action while we're at it- Lord knows, wouldn't want to rock the boat! And we should probably help ourselves to a nice, steaming cup of STFU about illegal invasions of sovreign nations, while we're at it. And choice and gun control are kinda dangerous subjects too- how 'bout a "no message" campaign?

[ilpostino]

20. Good news...

You don't have to jettison affirmative action, and you don't have to betray choice, and abandon gun control, and desecrate all your principles. There are those who will do all that for you, and they have no illusions about what the object of an election is.

[comsymp]

21. But enough about the DLC...

what's YOUR idea of a successful and ethical Democratic platform?

And, notwithstanding the tone of your posts and the... uh, interestingly worded thread title, what are your thoughts on the gay marriage "trap"?
Are gay men/lesbians entitled to the same rights as heterosexual couples or not and, if so, why do you feel that Dem candidates should run from this position?

[w4rma]

23. You should realize that Dean wore a bulletproof vest

after signing the civil union bill in Vermont because of all of the death threats against him. Forget about polls and winning the election for a moment. Do you want another RFK?

[comsymp]

24. Are YOU advocating that candidates "play it safe"???

Say it ain't so!

ON EDIT: Oops, name...

[w4rma]

26. Yes. (n/t)

[comsymp]

27. OK, fair enough

So what platform items do you suggest that Dems emphasize to differentiate themselves from Republicans? Or do you not believe that Dems should differentiate themselves from Republicans?

[knight_of_the_star]

18. We can use this to our advantage

We know we're going to lose the hard-core religious nuts anyway, so it would make sense to make a bold stand for gay rights while brutally attacking Bush for trying to change the subject in the sense that he is avoiding the things he did wrong.

[KT2000]

19. Election 2004 = Gay marriage

Rove wants every Democratic candidate to run on the gay marriage issue. Media will assist in that effort as Larry King did interviewing Dean.

Is that really the most important issue facing this country? Personally I do not think so, but it will be a rallying point for the right wing and the media will play it for all its worth. Hysteria ensues, which means the right controls the debte.

The issue of gay marriage in this election is a tool for the right wing.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. Every friggin thing in the world is a tool for the RNC

If a candidate doesn't get that yet then GAME OVER!!!!

[xequals]

25. I don't believe in "seperate but equal"

the argument doesn't make sense. Bill Maher made this point the other day: ALL unions between two consenting adults (straight or gay) should be just that, civil unions. If marriage is something religious, then the state shouldn't choose which marriages are legitimate and which are not. After all, anyone can setup a religion that would allow homosexual marriages -- the state should have no say whether this is legitimate or not. The state should recognize all "marriages" in the same way.

I'm not gay, I'm an atheist. For me this is as much an issue of separation of church and state as it is civil rights.

But I do agree with those who say that this is NOT the election to make this the main issue. There are much bigger issues this time around -- these are dark days for Democrats and our top priority should be to regain power. We Democrats can't accomplish anything without a "seat at the table". Even civil rights didn't happen overnight -- that was (and continues to be) a hard, long fight. The key is to do this one step at a time. Gay marriage will happen (i.e. the state recognizing it with the same terminology as straight marriage) especially once people get used to the idea of civil unions.