One Nation Under God........ PLEASE!

[trumad]

Today SOTUS hears arguments for the removal of God from the Pledge of Allegiance... I say remove it... Here's how it got put in in the 50's...

<snip>
In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.
http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

I believe in 100 percent Seperation of Church and State. 100 percent! Not 90 percent or 98 percent...100 percent.

Now I know that some will come in and say we've got bigger fish to fry and we should let this one go...NOT! Just know this... Folks who are against SCS number many and they will not stop until all our Children are watching the Passion during School Lunches!

[BootinUp]

1. neutral

I'm stayin out of it. I don't think this is the time to fight this battle, and I am not sure that the words under God in a pledge that you are not required to make amounts to a violation of the separation of church and state. On the other hand I would support the decision to take it out if thats what SCOTUS decides.

[trumad]

3. Look..why is it so important that it remains?

It was inserted because of a campaign by a religous organization in the 50's... This is the Church involving itself into the State big time.

[markus]

4. Not required to make?

So, try sitting in the drunken endzone or outfield of any ballpark in American and remaining seated during the National Anthem, saying you don't go for all of that war mongering.

My wife gets a wee bit annoyed, becuase I have a Very Loud Voice when I want to (and sometimes when I don't mean to) and I make a point of reciting the worlds UNDER LAW is place of under god VERY LOUDLY when I have to publicly recite the pledge.

[cmd]

6. under law - very good

Thank you. That is a good alternative for me.

[Free_Thinking1]

9. I personally don't remember the last time I had to publicly recite

the pledge. As far as sitting during the National Anthem, that has nothing to do with not wanting to say "under God". If you don't want to say it, don't say it, I see no problem in that. Now sitting during the National Anthem is disrespectful I don't like to see it but I don't say anything. But I can see where others would.

[Zomby Woof]

13. real freethinkers

Real freethinkers sit during the national anthem. It's another mindless ritual designed to indoctrinate. It seems to be working.

The anthem wasn't even official until 1931, so it is hardly a very old tradition. But freethinkers reject tradition anyway, old or not-so-old.

I cannot see why it bothers other people. They must be hung up and repressed if they get angry or threaten violence just because intelligent freethinking people refuse to take part in the anthem, or the pledge, or if they refuse to bow down to a Bronze Age deity.

[Free_Thinking1]

16. I do it because I want to

Sorry, I don't think your statement of "real freethinkers sit during the National Anthem" is at all true. It, in my opinion, is not designed to indoctrinate. It is a way of showing respect for your country. And yes, I love my country. Is it possible for me to be a free thinking liberal and still love my country?

[Zomby Woof]

24. sure

But is also possible for some of us to love our country and hate mindless drivel like the National Theme Song. You say we're disrespectful, and that is an opinion not supported by any facts. Refusing to participate in singing a really bad poem set to the tune of an old English drinking song ("To Anacreon In Heaven") is a sign of good taste and an open mind. I say by refusing to sing this drivel we are showing respect for the nation, music, and poetry - a 3 in 1 deal.

It's also a militaristic piece of shit, which is fitting because we are a militaristic-fetishizing culture. Plus, the War of 1812 was the stupidest and most useless war we ever fought, with the possible excpetion of the current fiasco in Iraq.

[Free_Thinking1]

40. Wow,

The National Anthem is not only a piece of shit but also drivel. Man, thats it, I can't take it anymore, I am a Liberal, I am fed up with Bush, I do want a change, but I will no longer associate with people who are so full of hate for anything and everything that you don't like. I guess I didn't read enough posts before I became a member. Since then mindless drivel is about all I have seen.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

17. "Under God": McCarthy Loyalty Oath

Free thinkers should reject this on principle. I am not criticizing anyone's religion-this has to do with Stalinist-like conformity in a repressive time.

The countries that require loyalty oaths and repect for flags are often the most repressive: Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia come to mind.

The Founding Fathers had no intention of including God in government. They were deists who warned of the danger of Church involvement in state affairs.

[Free_Thinking1]

18. I am responding to the sitting during the National Anthem

As far as the Pledge of Allegiance I honestly don't care. If you want to say "under God" say it. If you want to say "under law" say it. I don't even remember the last time I even heard it recited.

As far as respect for flags goes, I don't think it should be legally required, but out of respect for those who have fought and died under that flag I think a little respect should be shown.

When did it become fascist to love your country?

[Zomby Woof]

26. they didn't fight or die for a rag

They fought and died for the Constitution (sometimes), multinational corporations (often), and these days, cheap gas.

But the flag is just a symbol, and I find it insulting to their memories that they died for a symbol, instead of the REAL THING.

[Free_Thinking1]

32. True, they did fight and die for the Constitution

And until we start flying a copy of it instead of the flag, to me anyway, the flag is a symbol of that.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

28. I love my country. I come from an Air Force family.

Respect the people, not the symbol. Fight for Veterans Benefits that this administration is taking away. Fight for a decent standard of living for military families, many who are forced to go on public assistance while the mother or father is deployed. Fight for decent equipment for our soldiers who are doing battle with sub-par supplies, thus putting them in grave danger.

Since when is it traitorous to criticize your country?

[Free_Thinking1]

33. I agree

I do very much respect the people, I do support Veterans Benefits, I do support decent standard of living, I do support better equipment. I support these as a veteran who has had to live in sub-par housing and used sub-par equipment.

I did not say it was traitorous, you said it. I simply said I think the symbol of what people have fought for should be respected.

We can have this fight all day, you see it differently than I do. That is fine, we are both entitled to our opinions.

[NicoleM]

29. Are you an elementary school student?

That's the issue here as I understand it. Elementary school kids already have the "right" not to say "under God" in the pledge, but I think the question is whether they are too young to be expected to stand up to the peer and societal pressure to say it.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on that.

[SammyWinstonJack]

38. Disrespectful?

"Now sitting during the National Anthem is disrespectful I don't like to see it but I don't say anything."

How extremely tolerant of you. :eyes: I guess just because I choose not to go along with the crowd and stand during the playing of the National Anthem, that displays my total disrespect for my Country to those around me.

[Az]

2. This is a core issue

It stands at the center of the culture war currently raging in this nation. Those that embrace a diverse society and a freemind should rally around this case whether they believe in god or not. This nation's government must stay out of defining our beliefs. Our minds and our children's minds must remain free.

[sweetheart]

5. Heck. lets change the whole pledge to be more realistic

I pledge my allegiance to the Logo of the Corporate Empire of America,
and to the rich people for which it stands, one market,
under men, for the division and destruction of all peoples,
without liberty or justice for anyone except rich white men.

[bhunt70]

7. I'm for it coming out.

I'm also against putting my hand on the bible for anything.

It just seems silly to someone who doesn't believe in God to have to swear to/pledge or confirm god.

I certainly don't begrudge people who do, it is their right, but to have it used in certain areas because its "tradtional" is wrong to me.

[Free_Thinking1]

10. I agree with the Bible thing

I really don't see the point in having someone swear on a book that means nothing to them.

[NicoleM]

8. They're not going to take it out.

I agree they should, but they won't. They'll probably have to argue that "under God" is okay because it doesn't really mean anything. That will piss the fundies off more than taking it out.

[Az]

11. It won't come to that

They are going to assinate this case before they get to the core issue. They are going to toss it on a technicality. Newdow's ex wife has primary custody of their daughter. They are going to argue he has no claim in this case.

[Catfight]

12. Then divorce parents have no claims?

So then, we'll have that when divorced, whom ever has full custody has complete say so. This will lessen the rights of men...that'll never happen.
It should be pulled if law prevails over religion. If religion prevails over law, then why do we need justices to begin with?
I want God off currency as well.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

15. Never happen?

So far as I can tell, men already have no rights in divorce.

[Mattforclark]

21. I agree

tossing it out on a no "standing to sue" basis is probably the most likely outcome. But that doesn't mean it will necessarily happen, cuz the SC has an innate sort of unpredictability (which is what makes it interesting)... :)

[Mattforclark]

22. But then again

why bother to take the case then?

[NicoleM]

27. Because they don't want

the 9th Circuit's ruling to stand.

[Mattforclark]

30. But...

they could do all that without going through the bother of hearing oral arguments. The SC doesn't normally fully hear cases and write opinions unless it wants to say something.

[NicoleM]

31. This is

a good point.

[Bandit]

34. If they toss the case the 9th court ruling will stand

They already took the case and ruled on it. The ruling must either be overturned or it stands. If the supreme court refuses to hear it then the decision will stand.

[Az]

35. It gets overtuned on the technicality

They will claim he has no right to have brought the case in the first place.

[EV1Ltimm]

14. Let's get rid of the whole thing.

There's no evil atheist hordes brewing in russia, hell-bent on destroying jesus and nuking topeka kansas.

the POA is outdated and unnecessary.

[Carni]

19. I agree with you BUT...

I have thought since day one that this is a red herring deliberately thrown out there by the right to make the "Godless left" look like they are "taking over the country and taking God out of the schools"

Here's the deal as I see it...the daughter that the guy is suing over the rights of, is a born again Christian, what is his objection to his daughter (a born again Christian) saying "under God" in the pledge?

There were other weird aspects to this story that made me suspicious but now I have forgotten them of course.

But here's my point, every time something like this comes to the forefront it seems like things shift MORE to the right. The bushies contrive these "the commies are coming" panic scenarios and the general stupid public thinks what the hell is going on here?
Why don't these nuts find something better to do than screw around with what our founders intended? (They don't know "under God" was added in the 50's and they don't care they just see this as an attack by "left leaning extremists")

Just my two cents... BTW I am an agnostic and I am not thrilled with the Under God being in the declaration, but on the other hand it's been there for 50 years, I grew up saying it and it didn't kill me or turn me into a freeper so I think it would have been better to just leave it the hell alone.

I also think the religious right will get handed a victory on this one and like I said before I think this man was put up to this by the right winged Christians themselves.

[Killarney]

20. I agree, but not now.

I think it should be gone. I think it should be off the money. I think it should be gone from everything. I 100% believe in the separation of church and state.

But not this year.

This is an election year and they're always looking for wedge issues. It's no secret that most athiests are democrats and most liberals are for the separation of church and state. They will try to turn this into a culture war. O'Reilly blabs about the culture war and the liberals trying to kill god every night. The polls show that the majority of Americans want god to stay in the pledge. We do not want this fight to fall on us right now and hurt Democrats in the election.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

23. take it out!

[HydroAddict]

25. Go Mr. Newdow!

And for those of you who also want "God" removed from currency, see...

www.godoffmoney.com

[Solon]

36. Go Back to the Traditional one.

'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'

I don't get the controversy in regards to returning it to the original. I mean why have a modified version at all? BTW: Some religious people will still object to it, only on the grounds that reciting pledges to anything but God is a sin. So keep it voluntary or not recite it at all.

[markus]

37. Under Law

See above.

Hell, the various justices would probably *like* that.

It also flows off the tongue in the expected way.

[Solon]

39. Why Law?

What Law is that? If anything say "under Constitution", but that is just as pointless. Laws can restrict freedom as well as protect it, so why insert it at all. If we want to modify it, why not put in what the original writer wanted to put in but didn't for "Political Correctness".

'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'

[myomy]

41. I just "pray" our country will be around long enough to mature.

.