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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 10:52 AM
Original message
This British Home Secretary is INSANE
Edited on Mon Mar-15-04 10:54 AM by FatSlob
This is stunningly unbelievable. How did this clown ever get in office?

www.sundayherald.com/40592

We locked you up in jail for 25 years and you were innocent all along? That’ll be £80,000 please


WHAT do you give someone who’s been proved innocent after spending the best part of their life behind bars, wrongfully convicted of a crime they didn’t commit?

An apology, maybe? Counselling? Champagne? Compensation? Well, if you’re David Blunkett, the Labour Home Secretary, the choice is simple: you give them a big, fat bill for the cost of board and lodgings for the time they spent freeloading at Her Majesty’s Pleasure in British prisons.

On Tuesday, Blunkett will fight in the Royal Courts of Justice in London for the right to charge victims of miscarriages of justice more than £3000 for every year they spent in jail while wrongly convicted. The logic is that the innocent man shouldn’t have been in prison eating free porridge and sleeping for nothing under regulation grey blankets.

Blunkett’s fight has been described as “outrageous”, “morally repugnant” and the “sickest of sick jokes”, but his spokesmen in the Home Office say it’s a completely “reasonable course of action” as the innocent men and women would have spent the money anyway on food and lodgings if they weren’t in prison. The government deems the claw-back ‘Saved Living Expenses’.

********Please see the rest of the article at the link at the top of the page**********
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dakota_democrat Donating Member (334 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. Wow
It's like debtor's prison all over again over there. What a stupid idea.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. Kick
This looks like a joke out of Yes, Minister... until you realise these motherfuckers are for real. Fuck Blunkett.

V
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demsrule4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
3. And there are people here that want to live there
oooooooooooooook.
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I'm not surprised
This is the country that has virtually banned defending yourself using anything that could be a weapon. From what I understand, and I could be wrong, if you are attacked by some knife-armed thugs, it is illegal to defend yourself with say...a cricket bat.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Well...
technically you are allowed to defend yourself using whatever you like, but only 'until the danger to oneself has passed'. So if someone comes at you with a knife, you can hit them with a bat but not chase them if they start to run away. At least that's the theory -in practice its of course never so clear cut.

V
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Thank you for clearing that up.
I appreciate it.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. you could be wrong

if you are attacked by some knife-armed thugs, it is illegal to defend yourself with say...a cricket bat.

And given that you could not conceivably think that that statement is correct, one just has to wonder why you would make it, doesn't one?

.
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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
5. He's nuts ok, along with the rest of the Other Bush Administration
in No 10 Downing Street.

Consider their latest moves as the final death throes of a sick regime
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
6. Says he is part of the Labour Party
What is the skinny on them?
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Currently a vaguely left-of centre party
although with the emphasis on centrist rather than left. Labour combine an interventionist foreign agenda with a centrist fiscal agenda - a focus on a balanced budget but including some redistribution such as the minimum wage and increased spending on primary education and health care.

One of the paradoxes of Labour is that while they are relatively liberal on certain social issues such as gay rights/drugs, they are very authoritarin when it comes to terrorism and law in general. They are currently trying to scrap the right to trial by jury in certain cases, and have already changed the burden of proof in some aspects of law from the state to the defendent.

Their main opposition comes from the Tories, who are a right-of-centre party sharing a lot of the values of the Republicans. The third party in parliament are the left-of-centre Liberal Democrats, who support a more redistributive agenda than Labour but have rarely governed well when elected at local level.

V
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. *NEW* Labour, please
Let's be clear that this 'Labour' party has nothing to do with the one Nye Bevan, or even Wilson, led.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
9. Yes he is
What a tremendous confidence in human potential that... :rolleyes:
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Wabbajack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
10. That's just too fucking much
.
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truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
11. Blunkett also wants to get rid of jury trials
and he helped make it easier for "suspects" to be extradited to the US.

In this particular case, keep in mind that there are still people in the UK who are convinced the Birmingham Six are guilty.
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Monkey see Monkey Do Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
13. Yup! But boy he's keeping the far-right on their toes!
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. What, by stealing all their programmes?
:evilgrin: </sarcasm>

V
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T_i_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. No sarcasm needed
That is the exact ploy "new" labour is using on immigration, nicking the BNP's ideas. :grr:

No wonder the BNP are gaining at the polls. Blunkett is an absolute gift to them.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
15. "please see the rest of the article ..."
And ... quelle surprise ... nobody seems to have bothered. Or bothered to understand what it was saying.

For those who may miss the news down in the gun dungeon, here's a little assistance I posted there.



Hill now lives on a farm with his wife and children near Beith in Scotland. He has been charged £50,000 for living expenses by the Home Office.

It wasn't until two years ago that Hill was finally awarded £960,000 in compensation. However, during the years since his release, while waiting for the pay-out, the government had given him advances of around £300,000. When his compensation came through, the £300,000 was taken back along with interest on the interim payments charged at 23% - that cost him a further £70,000.
He was awarded £960,000, i.e. £40,000 for each year he was in prison. That's about $72,000/year US -- a decent salary these days, let alone in 1980 -- for a total of about $1,738,000 US.

Out of that, the proposal is that he be charged back £3,000/year ($5,400 US) for his living expenses. That's a deal you wouldn't likely get on the outside.

I don't see a proprosal to charge people who are *not* awarded compensation for their living expenses. I really don't know how it works in the US, but I'm aware of a couple of Canadian cases where wrongfully convicted/imprisoned persons have been given hefty compensation awards, and this seems to be the practice in the UK as well.

On the other hand, awards of compensation for anything, e.g. by civil courts, simply do not spiral off into the stratosphere in Canada and the UK the way they do in the US. An award of nearly $2 million US is a very big award.

The point is that if his compensation represents what he lost, he didn't *lose* the money that he would have spent on the basic living expenses that were covered by the prison system. I'd have expected the compensation calculation to take this into account, rather than doing it as a charge-back, and I'd hardly have been surprised if it had taken it into account.

Oh look:

The Home Office said an "independent assessor appointed by the Home Secretary takes into acccount the range of costs the prisoner might have incurred had they not been imprisoned". The spokes man said the assessor was "right" to do this, adding: "Morally, this is reasonable and appropriate."
That is, in fact, exactly what they do. So damned if I don't think it's just a trifle, um, dishonest for someone to say this:

He is now facing a bill of around £80,000 for the living expenses he cost the state.
No one is "facing a bill"; what he is evidently facing is a reduction in the compensation he will receive, to account for living expenses he did not incur while in prison.

A person here (in Canada) who is, say, awarded a hefty amount in damages for a disability-causing injury, and who received a public disability pension while awaiting judgment, will have the amount of the social assistance received deducted from the judgment and paid to the government that paid the assistance out. Similar principle.

I might have a couple of quibbles, but I'd need to know more than the amateurish report cited tells. It reports that he was charged interest on advances on the award -- but was there re-judgment type interest included in the award? If so, he didn't *lose* anything. If not, there's an arguable injustice.

What a big flap about nothing particularly significant, if you ask me. And, unless somebody can show me the great tenderness and respect with which the wrongfully convicted are systematically treated in the US, I'd say just another case of pot and kettle. It might make sense for people in a social democracy of sorts to express criticism like this, but coming from the USofA it's just lame.


And sure enough, a little quick research, after I was accused of "bashing" the US in the above, found the following.


http://www.talkleft.com/archives/000919.html

New York and Illinois were pioneers in passing laws allowing compensation. The Innocence Protection Act, as originally introduced, provided for $50,000 per year in federal cases. The recent amendment to the bill lowered it to $10,000 per year.

From the Justice Policy Project analysis of the original bill and amendment:

"The bill includes a substantially smaller increase in the federal cap on compensation for unjust imprisonment. Under current law, the U.S. Court of Federal Claims may award up to $5,000 against the United States in cases of unjust imprisonment. The IPA as introduced raised this cap - which has not been raised since 1938 - to $50,000 for each year that the plaintiff spent in prison, or $100,000 per year if the plaintiff was sentenced to death. The bill raises the cap to $10,000 per year. In addition, while the original bill conditioned federal prison grants on States agreeing to pay reasonable compensation to exonerated death row inmates, the bill simply expresses the sense of Congress that States should provide such compensation."
Hmm, $10,000/year US ... versus $72,000/year US with a $3,000/year US deduction for living expenses.

Pop quiz, now; if you were a wrongfully convicted person, where would you rather have served your time?

http://www.justicedenied.org/compensate.htm

On December 9, 1998, the New Zealand Ministry of Justice instituted a system to compensate people whose convictions of crimes had been overturned on appeal. This precedent-setting act went completely ignored by the American media. Thirty-five years earlier, when New Zealand became the first country in modern times to institute a system to compensate crime victims, the American media ignored that as well. Yet a mere five years after that, both California and New York established victim compensation programs.

... Precedents for compensating the wrongfully convicted exist in federal law and the laws in 14 states and the District of Columbia, albeit with severe limitations on conditions and maximum awards ... . These limitations include brief time limits for filing and strict standards of proof of innocence. ...<T>here are exceptions to these generalizations -- New York, West Virginia, and the District of Columbia have no limit on award maximums, for instance. ...<T>hese statutes do not prevent the unjustly convicted and the falsely accused from using tort law to sue government agencies and entities for false imprisonment, civil rights violations, libel and defamation. One such example is that of Anthony Porter, who recently received $145,875, the maximum allowable under Illinois's compensation statute -- but still plans to sue Chicago under tort law.
Hey, that there's a USAmerican bashing the US; don't be blaming moi.

http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200207/071102b.html

LEAHY-SPECTER-FEINSTEIN-BIDEN-DURBIN-EDWARDS
SUBSTITUTE AMENDMENT TO THE INNOCENCE PROTECTION ACT

SECTION-BY-SECTION SUMMARY

TITLE IV—COMPENSATION FOR THE WRONGFULLY CONVICTED

Sec. 401. Increased compensation in Federal cases. This section increases the maximum amount of damages that the U.S. Court of Federal Claims may award against the United States in cases of unjust imprisonment from a flat $5,000 to $10,000 per year.

Sec. 402. Sense of Congress regarding compensation in State death penalty cases. This section expresses the sense of Congress that States should provide reasonable compensation to any person found to have been unjustly convicted of an offense against the State and sentenced to death.
Maybe somebody can find out where all that stands now ... and work out what that guy in the UK would likely have got had he been wrongfully convicted in a US state instead.

Just the facts, seems to me.

Of course, that's not what the lead post consisted of. It consisted of an attempt to portray the situation in the UK as amounting to charging the wrongfully imprisoned for bed and board ... when what it is, is an attempt to deduct a piddling amount for their living expenses from the extremely generous (well, by USAmerican standards) compensation they are given for their wrongful imprisonment.

.

.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Not really actually
whether they get compensation or not is hardly the point. In a lot of the cases, like the Birmingham Six, those imrisoned were political prisoners. To reduce their compensation by demading money back for 'living expenses' is like a final slap in the face - that's where the outrage comes from.

V
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. well it's just amazing

... the things that some people choose to be outraged about.

As I did say -- I can understand that people within the society in which this occurs might be outraged about it.

I'm just not sure how seriously I should take the outrage expressed by someone in a society that compensates people unjustly imprisoned at the rate of $10,000/year at a society compensating someone ONLY $67,000/year, regardless of how that figure was reached.

Actually, I am.

.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Point taken
but I for example have lived in the UK for 7 years and never heard of this before...

V
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Normally I agree with you, but not this time
Edited on Tue Mar-16-04 06:53 AM by Mairead
Would you yourself agree to go to prison, and suffer prison indignities, for the sake of £40K pa, less various costs? I wouldn't. That's his life we're talking about--the only one he gets.

As far as the US being worse...is anyone surprised?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. and the issue wasn't ...
Whether anyone would agree to go to prison in return for compensation.

The issue was, supposedly, the "charging" of the wrongfully imprisoned for living expenses they did not incur while in prison.

The FACT is that no wrongfully imprisoned person is charged anything; a deduction is normally made, in calculating how much compensation s/he is entitled to for the wrongful imprisonment, for the fact that s/he did not incur living expenses while in prison and his/her living expenses were incurred by the state.

It may seem a silly way of doing things, but it is still NOT what it was presented in this thread as being, and it really doesn't have anything to do with how to avoid, or compensate for, wrongful imprisonment.

It happens. The Brits deal with it by awarding whopping amounts of compensation, even after what is truly a nominal deduction for expenses not incurred. In the US it is dealt with by awarding piddling amounts of compensation, and it also appears that the standard that someone must meet before even being considered to have been "wrongfully imprisoned" -- i.e. not just "not guilty", but "innocent" -- is higher in the US than in the UK.

The moral indignation being expressed in the lead and other posts in this thread wasn't about wrongful conviction, it was about deduction of a very small amount representing unincurred expenses from a very large amount representing compensation for the wrong.

And as such it was obviously just another case of a pot calling a kettle black, and another in what seems to be a regular series of "let's bash somebody else's country" over some triviality in a situation in which the other country, on the whole, compares more than favourably to the basher's own country. That was my point. And what you've said doesn't "disagree" with anything I said.

.
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T_i_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
20. Yeah, Blunkett's a prick
He used to be leader of Sheffield city council, where I grew up and he was an unmitigated disaster, wasting millions on white elephant schemes such as the 1991 World Student games that the city is still paying off the debts for today.

Here's one of his more idiotic ideas. Fortunatly this law to make it a criminal offence to have sex in your own garden was dropped.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,885143,00.html

The old cry of "come into the garden, Maud" could easily end in prosecution under a law banning sex in public as part of the new sexual offences bill published yesterday.

But it will be safe for couples to leave their curtains wide open when they have sex in the bedroom - even if they know they can be seen from the house opposite. This apparent confusion in the law stems from the first attempt by civil servants to define how a ban on offensive sexual activity in a public place can apply to some private premises which can be seen from a public place.

But while the new law respects the idea that an Englishman's home is his private castle and does not criminalise any consensual act that takes place in a private dwelling, that no longer applies to his garden. Explanatory notes to the bill make clear that a couple who make love in a private garden which can be seen from the street could face a fine or up to six months inside. It may be time to let the Leylandii grow a little taller.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
22. Blunkett and Straw are the two biggest asses in Blair's government.
They're better than most tories, but their still asses.
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