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I need help on an op ed response. (Gay marriage)

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 08:58 PM
Original message
I need help on an op ed response. (Gay marriage)
The piece that I am responding to can be seen here.

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/...15003102330.xml

The poor, persecuted, Kevin O'Brien. To read his piece of March 10, "Majority Should Speak Up", one would think that people who oppose same sex marriage lived in closets and never were heard from. One would think that if a person turned on the TV, he or she would see nothing but pro gay propaganda 24 hours a day and seven days a week; and that those with Mr. O'Brien's point of view never, ever saw the light of day. The truth is quite a different matter.

First, lets take a look at the poll numbers. From a September ABC Poll. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Relation...oll_040121.html

Same sex marriage should be legal 41% illegal 55% but only 38% wants to amend the Constitution while 58% don't.

From a December NPR Poll http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/...re_1567690.html

Same sex marriage support 30 oppose 56. Civil Unions are tied at 45 in favor and 45 opposed. The Constitutional amendment wasn't mentioned.

Yes, a bare majority oppose same sex marriage. But, it isn't the overwhelming majority that Mr. O'Brien would have a reader believe.

Now, let's take a look at the TV punditry. Same sex marriage has been discussed on CNN, Fox News, and Face the Nation recently. On the Capital Gang, the four pundits split two and two. Source (Feb 7, 2004) http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0402/07/cg.00.html On Face The Nation, they had one pro, and one anti speaker (source Feb. 29, 2004 Face the Nation). Finally, on The Beltway Boys, both people were opposed. Source (Feb 17, 2004)http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,111678,00.html This is, to be fair, by no means an exhaustive study. But, unlike Mr. O'Brien I did provide you some sources to decide what is really the case. It is possible a case could be made that people with Mr. O'Brien's point of view are very slightlyunderrepresented in the news media. (50% in the media vs 55% in the polls). That is hardly the picture Mr. O'Brien paints for us.

Mr. O'Brien goes on to say this:

"Furthermore, homosexual partners who want to make legal contracts with one another already may do so. The law provides such instruments as wills, joint tenancies and powers of attorney to anyone, married or otherwise. Contract with whom you choose, whatever your motivation. You don't need anyone else's blessing. "

That is just, plainly speaking, baldly false. Even to the extent that such contracts can be entered into, they are certainly not free, nor are they as binding as marriage. Wills, joint tenancies, and powers of attorney are able to be contested and routinely are contested, by family members. The law assumes that the next of kin of an unmarried person is his or her parents or siblings. In not a few cases these parents have disowned the gay person. Yet, the law assumes that those parents are to be given the full rights of inheritance, determining medical care, and visitation in hospitals. In addition, there are a whole host of rights that only governments can bestow. Yes, a same sex couple can inherit, but they will pay taxes. Yes, some businesses offer same sex benefits, but they are all taxed as income. Same sex couples can not sue for loss of consortium. can not inherit Social Security or other government pensions, can not generally collect from disaster funds, can be forced to testify against each other in court, can not bring spouses from other countries for immigration purporses, can not jointly adopt, can not file joint tax returns, do not qualify for emergency family leave, and I could go on and on as there are over 1000 rights that married couples have that unmarried ones don't. Same sex couples are legal strangers.

Then he says this.

""We think it's wrong, and we're not going to condone it here" was a perfectly good argument against slavery, child labor, bigamy and every other societal ill, up to and including murder. And it's a perfectly good argument against legitimizing a type of sexual conduct in which only a tiny minority of Americans engage, and many more find repugnant. This is not really about marriage at all; it's about getting government to endorse the practice of homosexuality. "

This is patently absurd. Slavery, child labor, and bigomy weren't wrong because Mr. O'Brien, or for that matter anyone else, thinks they are wrong. They are wrong because there are real victims of these practices. Slaves were real people, and really harmed, by slavery. Child labor had real children, who real real victims, of a practice which robbed them of their childhoods. Bigomy has real victims who often have no idea their spouse has married twice. Same sex marriage, on the other hand, has no discernable victim. No one is going to wake up tomorrow, have a V8 moment, and say "Good God, I could have been gay. I need to marry a man." or "Wow, you mean I can marry a woman, sign me up". Nor is anyone going to have less of a marriage because someone else can have one too. We don't except these non sensical arguements from our children. If our kids tell us that you can't love both my brother and me, we tell them non sense. Similarly, the fact that one's fellow citizens, who happen to be homosexual, can enter into a marriage, doesn't lessen the value of those of heterosexuals. The government has no business foisting Mr. O'Brien's, the Pope's, George Bush's, or anyone else's idea of what is wrong upon us. The government only has business protecting real victims, from real wrongs, not imaginary people from imaginary wrongs.

He goes on to say this:

"Religious texts - and not just Christian texts - make an unambiguous case against homosexual activity as an offense against both God and man. That argument won't get any respect in the secular, skeptical media, but that shouldn't stop believers from making it every chance they get."

There are many things which the Bible says are wrong. Is Mr. O'Brien going to go after all you can eat restraunts, adulterers who marry their mistresses, people who wear germents of more than one fabric, people who blaspheme, or any of a host of other sins the Bible bans? One should hope not. Again, there is one, and only one, standard which should be used to legislate, and that is the existence of real victims. The Framers were pretty clear about this. The Ninth Amedment tells us that the people retain the rights not mentioned in the Constitution. The Tenth tells us that powers not delegated to the federal government are reserved to the states. The Fourteenth Amendment tells us that all citizens are entitled to equal protection. It doesn't have a homosexual exception. It doesn't have a Biblical exception. It doesn't have an exception for what Mr. O'Brien thinks is wrong and won't condone.

This isn't about same sex marriage. It is about who gets to make laws and why they get to make them. The courts aren't out of control super legislatures. They are doing their jobs. Rights aren't rights if one has to go on bended knee and beg some potentates for them. They aren't rights, if lazy courts won't enforce them. Rights are endowed to us by are Creator, not bestowed to us by Mr. O'Brien.



end of text

Please make any comments that you think can help.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. kick
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Redbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Here are some ideas.
All opponents of major social change use the Bible to justify their cause.

Slavery proponents used the Old Testament and the writings of Paul to support slavery. They were wrong.


Anti-suffragists used the Bible to fight giving women the vote. They were wrong.

Those who fought to keep laws against interracial marriage used the Bible to support their position. They were wrong.

Now people like Mr. O'Brien oppose gay marriage using the Bible. He is just as wrong as his slave-owning, woman-hating, racist brothers before him.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. not bad
Edited on Wed Mar-10-04 09:49 PM by dsc
thanks
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. you might make the point
that what any religion says has no bearing on civil law, nor should it for the good of both law and religion.

One of my brothers-in-law a couple of weeks ago announced (loudly) that Jesus had condemned homosexuality. I produced a Bible and told him to show me where. Much mumbling ensued about the fact that it was a New International Version, so I offered to find my KJV for him. He changed the subject. :)
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. thanks
I was considering this:

Assume for a second that Mr. O'Brien is correct about the Bible and same sex marriage. The very same Bible says that one needs to believe in Jesus in order to obtain eternal life. Thus Mr. O'Brien isn't even saving souls by advocating banning same sex marriage. He is merely making life on earth a little more unpleasant for those he thinks are sinners. So not only is he perverting the purpose of the Constitution, he is also perverting the foundation of his own religion.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. the only thing is
that people like this (and I haven't read the original piece by O'Brien, so I'm assuming that he's a generic fundie) see, at best, no problem whatsoever with making life unpleasant for "sinners". At worst, I think a lot of them see it as their moral duty.

Probably wouldn't hurt, though - you're not going to change the minds of those for whom gay marriage is a sign of the end of days or some shit.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. he is deputy editor of the cleveland plain dealer
and also a fundie
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. my views...

This comment bugs me. "Religious texts - and not just Christian texts - make an unambiguous case against homosexual activity as an offense against both God and man. That argument won't get any respect in the secular, skeptical media, but that shouldn't stop believers from making it every chance they get."

My Response:

While I, nor anyone I know, would want to impose upon the faithful anything that offends their creed... they have to know that in a free nation that respects citizen's rights... ALL citizens must be guaranteed the reverse: that government will NEVER be used to impose religious teachings on non-believers.

While you may hold dear what you consider sacred texts and notions of God... the simple truth is all you have are 2000 year old texts which historical tradition has made free from scrutiny or correction. By its very nature Faith is immune to self-correction. You choose to believe in ancient ignorance which time has made sacred. That is your right. Yet you go further wanting to impose those views on others. Unfortunately, you have no basis for your claims other than the circular argument that it must be true because God decreed it.... and God decreed His own word as infallible.

In reality homosexuality is inherent in nature. That humans should be immune to biology is absurd. The burden of proof is not on Gays to prove are not depraved but on your claims that you have a monopoly on God's Will. I prefer to see God's Will unraveled though a self-correcting method of science... not be forever straight-jacketed by ancient superstitions. The simple truth is Gays are here to stay. They are God's children. You can accept them with open arms... or forever delude yourself that God gave you the right to persecute them.






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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. hmm
I like that. I will have to weave that in.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Well, this is one
"person of faith" (I'm a liberal Christian) who thinks it's a sin to treat people the way gays are being treated and who sees nothing wrong at all with gay marriage or equal rights for gays. His lumping ALL religious people together as believing in his warped, mean-spirited, bigoted version really infuriates me.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thanks for posting this!
Edited on Wed Mar-10-04 11:05 PM by liberalhistorian
I'm near Cleveland and I saw that piece of wingnut fundie trash in this morning's paper.

It's certainly nothing new from Mr. O'Brien, who seems to be under the delusion that he has the right to force his extremist religious beliefs down everyone else's throats and that everyone agrees with him, they're just being oppressed and suppressed by the big, bad, "librool" media.

I've long since stopped reading his right-wingnut diatribes, but this one definitely deserves as much response as possible. And he's forgetting the myriad tax, social security, and legal benefits that come automatically with marriage that gay couples cannot get just by having certain legal papers drawn up. You can marry someone you've known for just a day or so and immediately have access to all of their benefits. But a gay couple who've been together for many years, maybe even decades, can't get that. What utter bullshit! Just how is that "upholding the sanctity" of marriage?

No, Mr. O'Brien, the majority HAVE spoken and it appears that your mean-spirited, bigoted, hateful, ignorant fundie bullshit is on the losing side, THANK GOD! And why is it that conservatives rail against the so-called "activist judges" unless such "activism" is on THEIR side? The first lesbian couple to be married in San Francisco had been together for FIFTY years! FIFTY YEARS! How the hell many hetero couples can say that?

And if you really want to "defend" marriage, how about strengthening the economy, improving access to health care (including forbidding hospitals from filing liens or similar actions against those who can't pay their horrendous bills so that they won't lose their house or all other assets), creating better jobs, stopping the criminalization of the poor and working families without much money, etc., etc., which would immeasurably help marriages? How about removing the stigma of single motherhood so that single mothers like me are not automatically dismissed as potential partners and could have an easier time finding a husband if they so wanted?

I think we ALL need to email Mr. O'Brien and let him know just who the TRUE majority is! Also, that we're not all gays, either, since he seems to think that only gays would agree with the idea of gay marriage.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. thanks
I saw this this morning and I was pretty bummed. I was more than a little shocked to see it. Not from him, of course, but that the PD decided to publish it.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Especially since so many of
their other high-profile columnists like Connie Schultz (who will be marrying Congressman Sherrod Brown in a few weeks!), Regina Brett, Sam Fulwood, and even Dick Feagler are all very much in favor of gay rights and gay marriage. I wonder how they all get along in the newsroom, lol!
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Feagler has been a huge, and very pleasant surprise
He used to be pretty bad on gay issues.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I know! It certainly
is nice to see coming from him. I guess wisdom really does come with age for some people!
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
16. The sin of hypocrisy
Edited on Wed Mar-10-04 11:35 PM by theHandpuppet
I'd start off with a reminder to Mr O'Brien about the sin of hypocrisy from the words of Jesus himself, who spoke often about religious hypocrites:

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5 RSV)

Then I'd invite him to visit this site! -- http://gadfly.igc.org/liberal/WWJD.htm -- and ask Mr O'Brien, while he is using his public pulpit to condemn homosexuals on the basis of his interpretation of scripture, why he has not also condemned the sitting president for multiple transgressions of God's word. If he does not then he is guilty of the sin of hypocrisy, of which Jesus sermonized many times as opposed to homosexuality, of which He never spoke.

Just an excerpt from the site link above:

What would Jesus Do?

We admit that this is a perfectly fine question. And so, to find answers, we decided to go to the source and last week read through the four Gospels. This is what we found.

Would Jesus launch a “pre-emptive” war?

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Matt. 5, verse 9 )


Our “President” appears to be prepared to “kick some Iraqi ass.” What would Jesus do?

Ye have heard that it hath it said, thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you and pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you. (Matt. 5: verses 43 & 44 )


While he was the Governor of Texas, George Bush signed 140 death warrants, and granted no pardons to condemned prisoners. What would Jesus do?

Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. (Matt. 5, verse 7 )


Rev. Jerry Falwell, steadfast proponent of “the right to life,” also endorses capital punishment. What would Jesus do?

Ye have heard that it hath been said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth; but I say unto thee, that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turned him the other also. (Matt. 5:verses 38 and 39 )


What might Jesus say about school prayer?

And when thou prayest, thou shall not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward. But when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which seeth in secret . (Matt. 6, verse 27 )


And the separation of church and state?

Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s. (Matt. 22-21 ).

(Great site, eh? A read of the full text is worth a visit!)


Finally, I would leave Mr. O'Brien with these words concerning his display of public piety and judgement:
"Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you." (Jesus Christ, Matthew 6:verses 1 thru 6 RSV)




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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Excellent post, thank you!
I'm going to show it to certain members of my church who desperately need to see it!
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. Marriage: The BIBLE Speaks
Edited on Thu Mar-11-04 03:12 PM by ulTRAX
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1214690&mesg_id=1214690

I haven't double checked the accuracy of those passages.

I think the quiet abandonment of such practices demonstrates that what most religious hypocrites today do is cherry pick some Biblical passages while ignoring others then pass off their own beliefs as the will of God.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
19. god, dsc...i could barely get through the first few paragraphs
hollywood liberal elite, the "liberal media," the powerful forces of the gay agenda, "activist" judiciary...all aligned to force god-fearing heterosexuals to accept gay marriage.
so many wingnut myths packed just in the first few sentences!!!!
:puke: i couldn't read any further...perhaps after lunch :D
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. kick
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