"Dems Won't Win The South Even If They Have Robert E. Lee on the ticket"

[heidiho]

A quote from Jack Cafferty this morning on CNN.

My question is:

Why have we given up on the South and why does the GOP believe it is invincible there?

Is it the GOP/southern good old boy racist thing? I know that the south turned against the Democratic Party after the Civil Rights Legislation was passed but that was 30 years ago.

Are any states in the south winnable?

[A J]

1. It's the bible belt thing.

So many of them vote republican because they think it is the "Christian" thing to do.

[eagler]

47. If more christians knew about Bush's involvement

with Moon, it could change things.

[Kamika]

2. I don't think it's so impossible

sure it's hard to win, but don't give up on the South.

Alot of young people are seeing the light

[LiberalFighter]

103. It may be impossible or may seem impossible...

but we should never give up. We need to keep chipping away at their weak points using the truth. The United States is not the same as it was 30 years ago and it will be even more different 10, 20 and 30 years from now. Think "melting pot!" It is a matter of the right ingredients being added to every part of the country. People moving from state to state from region to region changes the makeup.

Too many people say it is impossible and say why bother. Personally, I think those people use that as an excuse so they don't have to bother trying.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[carolinayellowdog]

10. Hate speech by any definition

thanks on behalf of millions of Southern Democrats, millions of non-religious Southerners, thousands of Southern DUers, and most African Americans in the USA-- who are in the South

[Ripley]

12. You need to alert on these guys.

He doesn't even have a clue about the panhandle of Florida. If he thinks that is more "redneck" than north central fl. he hasn't been there in awhile.

[carolinayellowdog]

22. Aren't we an non-protected class?

I know we can alert on hate speech that is racist, sexist, or homophobic, but from observation it seems that obscenities and curses directed at the South and Southerners are A-OK here.

[kayell]

27. The mods have in the past included bigotry against regions

although I think they required a higher standard of offensiveness. IMO that was reached, but I'm not a mod. The only way to find out how the mods will react is to alert if you think it's warranted, and let them decide.

[kayell]

29. And they did again We have great mods!

[Touchdown]

20. As an ignored westerner the Dems don't have time for...

I truly wish I has sympathy for you Southerners who are OBVIOUSLY MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAT ANYBODY ELSE! :eyes: One question though. Where are all you "millions of Southern Democrats, Milliols of Non-Religious Southerners, and Most African Americans" on election day?

[carolinayellowdog]

28. In the voting booth

http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm

except for those of us who were prevented from voting by the BFEE

[ArkDem]

30. Very clearly put.

.

[kayell]

23. "Southerners have some sort of mental problem that makes them very religio

Stereotypical bigotry.

How many of us DU Southerners did you just manage to malign?

[grytpype]

33. Southerners can't take a joke, either.

Obviously.

I know not all Southerners are GOP pod people, but enough of them are to cause big problems for the country. Karl Rove sleeps very well at night, knowing the South will vote for Bush no matter what.

[kayell]

70. Southerners, like other people, don't like being stereotyped

If you thought the post refered to (now deleted) was a joke, you have a very strange sense of humor.

[Skittles]

42. the IGNORE function

has served me beautifully

[kayell]

69. I use the Ignore function rarely; for hate speech, stereotypes and bigotry

of ALL kinds I prefer the alert button.

[Neecy]

46. a small and humble reminder

I've lived in the south, albeit for a brief one-year period.

I give a lot of credit to my progressive Democratic brethren who fight every day in their states to keep the party breathing. I also know from personal experience how difficult it is to be a liberal Democrat in a place swarming with conservative Christian Republicans. It's not pretty and I sure as hell wouldn't do it again.

Rather than trash the south, let's remember to give some credit to the southern DU'ers who are still fighting the fight and who come here not to be insulted, but to join forces with like-minded people. We might, in some communities, be all they have to talk politics with. It's a sad thing to see the insults fly.

[kayell]

68. Thank you Neecy, It;s frustrating enough to face bigotry and stereotyping

from the Talibornagain, but dealing with it here on DU (BOTH as a Southerner and a lesbian) is beyond annoying.

[Ripley]

73. Thank you!

What a nice post. :hi:

One of the reasons I liked Dean was that he wanted to talk directly to people down here about the issues, because it affects them too (even worse as the poorest states in the nation are here).

Kerry and all those at DU who say F*** The South are crazy. Believe me if he would just reach out a little bit, he could push some folks over. They need to be talked to with respect, not insults.

[carolinayellowdog]

4. an extremely sloppy and misleading statement

true ONLY if "win the South" means win every state in the South, false if it means win *any* state in the South

AR, LA, FL, and maybe TN are winnable

[dubae524]

63. Tennessee is winnable

Yes, Tennessee is winnable. We have quite a few Democrats here, and in fact we just elected a Democratic governor, Phil Bredesen. A lot of like-minders down here are pissed that Bush won, and they want to throw him out this year!

(I live in Memphis, btw.)

[kitkatrose]

85. Hello fellow Memphian!

:hi: How's it going down there? I'm in DC for school.

Welcome to DU.

[drdigi420]

5. not everyone in the south falls for it

but a lot of southerners are convinced there is a magic man in the sky that loves them but will burn them forever if they piss him off

they also believe that this magic man hates gay ppl, black ppl, and anyone that does drugs other than booze and nicotine

they also believe the magic man chose bush as our president

[erpowers]

41. Its not just the God Thing

Yes people in the south believe in God. However, many of them are willing to look past gays and race. The real problem for Democrats in the south is the idea of morality and personal responsibility. Many people in the south feel that Republicans are more morally sound than Democrats. Also, they think Republicans take responsibility for their mistakes. What the Democrats have to do is to debunk these lies. They must show that many Republicans are extremely immoral and that they blame their problems on other people. Also, the Democrats have the get a backbone and begin the take on Bush in the south. They need to call him out on his photo-ops like the NASCAR one. If the Democrats really put up a fight they can really win in the south and I don't mean one or two states I mean just about all of them.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

109. Excellent post and excellent points

[burmartesq]

6. Screw the South

We can win Ohio, West Virginia, and Nevada. Screw the South. with all else being equal, that's an electoral crushing.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

9. Welcome to DU!!

Glad to have you onboard!! :yourock: :grouphug:

[carolinayellowdog]

14. No welcome from me or anyone else who's been

hearing the same old crap for months here

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

21. Considering I wasn't talking to you

You don't have to worry about being welcomed.

I was clearly talking to the person with only 8 posts on DU.com

[carolinayellowdog]

31. What a misreading!

I said no welcome *from* me-- not *for* me-- meaning I don't welcome someone who curses Southerners on day 1. You're welcome to welcome anyone you want.

[RoundRockD]

13. New to the south

I am new to the south and believe me it is a whole different world. I live in a district which has no democrat in office. There also aren't very many democrats running for office. I think people here don't really think about issues when they vote, they just know that they should vote for republicans because everybody else is doing it. It's very uncomfortable to be a democrat in the south.

[Ripley]

18. Do you speak for the entire South?

You speak of your one small city or town. Why do people love to vilify the south with such slim evidence? Why don't you guys say f*ck Ohio? Or f*ck the western states? Or f*ck Alaska?

Do you think attacking with stereotypes is the right path to turning these states back to Dem? The economies down here are REALLY BAD. They need prodding not insults.

[K8-EEE]

32. Why Are You So Touchy?

Geez! S/he was just telling of their own experience. Chill out.

[democratreformed]

49. I would like to reiterate "ECONOMIES VERY BAD"

and "They need prodding not insults." That's what I've been saying for months.

Oh, and sorry that the poster above landed in such a Repub part of the South. Where I live, we definitely have Democrats in elected offices. The majority of our state legislators are Dem as well as are 7 out of 8 of our federal elected officials.

[callous taoboy]

98. Try being out in the hills

my fellow Texan.

[AgadorSparticus]

112. ooooh. i KNOW what you are talking about!

been there. done that. scaaaaary....hence our periodic retreats to austin to get a breather.

[mitchtv]

7. I suspect the wall is starting to crumble

perhaps LA, GA, TN and KY and OK and FL there may be a bright spot among them easier than KS,UT, ID. AZ is the next to go D

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

11. Very true

Arizona is pissed about Bush's immigration policy and there's been an influx of people moving to Arizona from New England and Illinois.

[JPace]

77. Please don't make me look at AWOL any more than I

have to. It makes me feel ill!

[Neecy]

8. perhaps

I think it's possible we might pick up LA and WV. Too early to write off the entire region.

[lancdem]

15. It would be great to be competitive in the South

but it's not necessary because Kerry should be strong in New England, PA and NJ, the Midwest (including Ohio) and the West Coast. That will be enough electoral votes.

[stepnw1f]

16. I believe the South

has a lot of very intelligent people, and a lot of hard-working people who truly dislike the president. Look for some surprises this November. Also, do not rule out a VP from the South. It would mend the country in a way unprecedented. Do not dis southerners please! Just think of all the southerners who come here. And I'm from Massachusetts...welcome to my southern brothers and sisters to DU!

[alarimer]

93. I think you are right

If Kentucky can elect its first Democratic congressman (or was it a local race- I can't recall) in a very long time, then there is hope throughout the south (I don't capitalize it because that is just giving it more emphasis than it deserves). Louisiana and Tennessee have Democratic governors. It is a mistake for Kerry to pander to the south but he shouldn't give up on it either. Treat it like any other region. Don't ignore the west either (except Texas which is pretty much a lost cause for a while).

[Florida_Geek]

17. Maybe he did not listen to the exit Polls in GA

JOBS and the ECONOMY were one GA voters mind.

[TNDemo]

19. Here are how the states have voted in the past.

Let's deal with facts and not just speculation or prejudice.

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/Hx/72-96.html

[carolinayellowdog]

35. Fascinating info, thanks!

which shows how volatile the situation is, with lots of current D strongholds (like CA) having strong R voting histories and to a lesser extent vice versa

[democratreformed]

50. Thanks for this!! n/t

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

81. Interesting how there are bellwhether states

...looking at these charts I can see LA & KY go with winner every time.

[eissa]

24. Did anyone watch Hardball last night?

Arizona or Ohio alone would seal it for us, and Arizona is looking really good right now. I won't say fuck the South as the repuke area I live in, although in CA, can easily be mistaken for any small town in Alabama...BUT, unless we are able to convince many southerners that God did not appoint *, that's going to be tough.

[LiberalFighter]

104. Need to rebut that statement...

What was the point of appointing gw* and allowing 9/11 to happen?

or

Why would god appoint a man that lies all the time?

[bluedog]

25. dems did win Fl

remember 537 votes.thats how much they say bush won with.I think we have 537 people mad as hell down here...due to bush and now his brother.who wants to kick the older folks out of their beds in a nursing home if they go to the hospital.....

[ArkDem]

34. Why didn't they vote Jeb out when they had the chance?

.

[bobbieinok]

56. FL 2002 - weren't there a lot of voting 'problems'?

I remember thinking it sounded a lot like FL2000, but this time they made sure there was a big difference in votes so 'no one would be suspicious.'

[Sophree]

91. We cannot depend on FL this year

As pissed and motivated as Democrats are, as pissed as the African-American population here is at being regarded as 3/5 of a human being again, we can not count on FL.

This state is the most corrupt state in the union. Jeb will put FL in his brother's column, no matter what criminal acts he has to committ. He's already done it, he'll do it again. I don't trust the voting machines and I think they are going to put up road blocks in Broward county again.

(I'm not trying to be negative, and I'm still registering young people to vote, hoping for a miracle. BUT, we have to be realistic and strategize a win based on a plan that does not include FL.)

[LiberalFighter]

105. Correct attitude

Do not depend on any one state.

There must be a plan that allows a fallback plan.

[BillZBubb]

96. Dems probably won't win FL this time

If Jeb got re-elected gov in 2002, I don't see how Shrub doesn't win there in 2004. If Jeb had gotten the deserved heave-ho, I'd be more optimistic. How could the people of Fl re-elect Jebthro? Sad.

[LiberalFighter]

106. I agree about the Gov's race but...

Presidential races are different. Not everyone that votes in the Presidential election votes in the other election years.

[maggrwaggr]

26. sounds like a challenge to me. Let's make a liar out of him.

nt

[LeahMira]

36. Not all of it...

Is it the GOP/southern good old boy racist thing?

Probably that's part of it, but I think a lot of folks in the Southern states still remember the Civil War as a time when powerful folks from up North came down there, tried to tell them how to live their lives, and trashed everything they had. I think they support Bush generally because they see him as representing them and giving their ideas preference over anyone else's.

I think we don't realize that a whole lot of people in the South not only didn't have slaves, but were not much better off than slaves themselves. They didn't do much to oppose slavery at the time, but they are quite aware of how African-Americans were also treated in the North and they resent what they see as Northern hypocrisy in that matter. In fact, they have a point because while the Civil Rights movement forced integration in the South, there were still separate schools for African-Americans (and Native Americans also) in the North and elsewhere in the country.

I do think that as people migrate around the country for jobs and so on, a lot of these attitudes will fade away. We all will just get to know one another better as people instead of as areas of the country. If Senator Kerry can focus on those problems that all parts of the nation share in common, like the need for decent jobs, and if he can manage to keep from focusing on the role of fundamentalist Christianity in this country (i.e. talk about issues rationally), he certainly has a good chance of winning in many areas of the South.

[ieoeja]

40. Blame it on those damn Yankees!

Lincoln got elected and began mobilizing the armies of the north to invade and destroy the south. The soldiers firing on Ft Sumter were actually northerners in disguise to give the northerners the excuse they needed to destroy the south.

Southern secession is a myth made up by the liberal media of the time and trumpted as fact ever since.

The Dred Scot case which nine US Supreme Court justices, all from the South, used as an excuse to overturn the northern states bans on slavery thus federalizing the issue of slavery? Another myth! Never happened. Dred Scot never even existed.

(/sarcasm)

[atre]

97. Your sarcasm notwithstanding

None of the facts she stated were inaccurate.

Even after Brown, the Supreme Court had to combat something called "de facto" segregation in the Northern and Midwestern states, and to do so they had to skirt around the "purposeful discrimination" requirement of the Equal Protection Clause. That is a fact. Look it up.

It is also a fact that very few people in the South benefitted from Slavery. The "planter class" consisted of only a select few very wealthy, very powerful individuals in each state. The vast majority of the rest of the population could not afford slaves; they subsisted off the land through their own hard work. In North Carolina, for example, the western mountainous region (which was not concerned with the slavery issue) wanted to secede from the state in the same way that West Virginia seceded from Virginia. The only thing that stopped the region from divorcing itself from the state was the occupation of the area by Confederate soldiers. That, also, is a fact. Look it up.

The South does not have a completely uncheckered past, but it is a mistake to believe that people down conform to the view you apparently have of them. Such people are a very small minority.

[ArkDem]

44. Earth to LeahMira...

The Civil War ended 139 years ago. Nobody remembers it.

[bobbieinok]

57. 'Nobody remembers it.' !!!!!!!!!!! You have GOT to be kidding

ayou must not live in the south

ever hear of Civil War re-enactments?

...of the book The Confederate in the Attic??

there are MANY in the south who talk about the War of Northern Agression as if it happened 10 or so years ago

[ArkDem]

82. Nobody remembers it because everyone involved is dead.

I've lived in the south for 55 years and never heard of anything you speak of.

[liberalpress]

102. Good for you...

...come to Tennessee sometime. The "War of Northern Agression" has never ended.

[smirkymonkey]

89. Why are they still so attached to

a war that happened 140 years ago?? I really don't get it. Get over it people and move on!!

[pnb]

99. Its not the war itself...

...as much as it is a mindset handed down for generations. An judging by many of the comments I see on this site, its a mindset that is often reinforced by the attitudes of many northerners.

[LiberalFighter]

108. Just like the Hatfield/McCoy Feud

How long did that last?

[LiberalFighter]

107. Unfortunately, many do.

I have co-workers that talk about that history because they were connected to it with their ancestors.

[tom_paine]

37. Jack McCafferty is a Bushevik shitpile self-important media whore

I wouldn't believe him if the Secong Coming of Jesus Christ stood behind him and vouched for his character.

[Stuckinthebush]

38. When we speak of the South...

we speak of Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee, Louisiana, South and North Carolina, Arkansas and Kentucky

Virgina and Florida do not have the Southern demographics of the other states on the list.

The Dems can win Florida, but if we are talking about the strict Southern minded states in the first list above, Dems are going to have a very hard time. Tennessee and Arkansas may be in play, and current polls show Georgia in play (but that's unlikely). If would spend absolutely no money on Mississippi, Alabama or South Carolina. The culture war issues are too strong of a GOP draw in those states (even with all of the textile jobs going away in SC). I would put money in the other states, however.

[carolinayellowdog]

39. Alas, VA is more unwinnable than most on your list

In order of probability I'd say our best chances are FL,TN,AR,LA based on 2000

[Stuckinthebush]

51. I'm not saying VA is unwinnable, it's just not considered Southern

by many Southerners. Similarly, Florida is not considered Southern because of the influx of Northerners.

Northern Virginia has a more cosmopolitan populace than any of the states I mentioned.

I did forget to mention West Virginia, but it is an entity unto itself with its own special issues related to mining.

[carolinayellowdog]

67. It is alas unwinnable, and is considered Southern AFAIK

I'm a native Virginian who has lived in LA and AL as well as OH and MI, and never met anyone anywhere who didn't regard VA as Southern. Well, I amend that to never heard anyone express any uncertainty about it, since I can't read minds. "Not *very* Southern" I did hear a time or two.

Notwithstanding the Dem enclaves in NoVA and Hampton Roads and SW VA, barring a miracle VA is as unwinnable as AL. We're, IIRC, the *only* Southern state with a 100% puke voting record in the presidential since 1972.

Hope I'm wrong though.

[erpowers]

45. That 's the problem with Democratic strategy

Democrats can not just give up on states in the south. They must spend money even in the states they think they can not win. If dems ignore the south repubs will say that the dems do not care about the south. I do not believe the culture war issues are to strong in those states. You must realize that Louisiana in the last two years elected two females to office and both were democrats. Dems can win these states if they just work hard and give a different vision of America than Bush's view.

[Stuckinthebush]

52. What do you think spending money in Alabama will give us?

I'd agree that we need to at least have a presence, but beyond that we are fighting an uphill battle in places like Alabama and Mississippi. Bush has huge positive ratings here in Bama, and the fundamentalist congregations have a stranglehold on their parishioners and how they vote. It is clear down here that if you don't vote Republican then you can't be a good Christian.

That is difficult to combat with TV commercials and billboards.

[LiberalFighter]

111. Don't do all the "southern" states...

Focus on the winnables and make them more winnable in the future. They will help change the border states in the future.

[Perky]

43. The "Bible Belt" Thing

As long as the Christian fundies are lockstep and slackjawed for Repuke the South is un winnabel.


Florida is not the SOuth.
Louisiana is perhaps in play. Virginia might be. Putting troops in Harms way for no good reason is a potent isssue in an obviusly pro military state.

I like John Edwards alot his problem is that He has tooo much Charisma to be a #2 and I don't think he wins any state for Kerry other than North Carolina.

The only two Southerners that help Keery in the SOuth would be John Breaux or Max Cleland.

Grahem would certainly help in Florida.

But I am thinking that A northern/Western Stategy is doable.

A winning Cobination is someone who is going to help in four states: FLorida, PA and Ohio and Michigan Win three out of four and Dubya can't win.. Ohio is the Key.

And NOOOOOO... Kucinich could not deliver Ohio.

[TheRedMan]

48. Please reread this thread, pretending you are a Southernor

And further, assume you are not ashamed to be so. See if you can pick up how a Southernor might dislike some of things being said here.

The South very much feels trod-upon by the rest of the country these days. We tend to get the down-the nose looks from the other parts of the country, and generally don't see how it was merited. We all realize that the backwoods rednecky accent doesn't sound terribly smart, but the implication that Southernors are stupid is not appreciated.

In fact, this whole thread has been little more than an opportunity for some of the most distasteful elements of the DNC to voice their bigoted views on the South and her people, even if it is moreso by way of how people couch their questions: "Is it a racist thing or a good ol' boy thing?" (as if those are our only choices!)

Why does the South seem to bond to the anti-intellectualism of the Repugs? Because intellectualism looks down on the South. And we are quite content to let them dislike us and for us to return the favor. The South historically has had little interest in public relations. If you want to be stupid and think we're just a bunch of extras off the set of "Deliverance," go ahead. We will just continue enjoying the thriving artist community, long cultural history, and incredible range of food on our own. And this "take us or leave us" attitude identifies much more strongly with the GOP's middle-finger-to-the-world outlook than the DNC's more inclusive approach.

I have a bachelor's degree in Materials Science, with the Master's on its way later this year. I am tired of being treated like a Clampett every time I talk to someone on the West Coast. I am tired of being told what I represent, what I have a right to be proud of, and how irrelevant I am. If you want to see this attitude, check out some the commercials for Turner South. Their current series is "We interrupt this Southern Stereotype..." where a lost couple pulls off the road to ask a man in overalls doing some whittling for directions. He slams his knife into a stump (we interrupt...) and pulls a palm pilot out of his overall to show the man how to get to the road. Or a police officer pulls over a wild kid in his Beetle and starts of "Son..." (We interrupt) "...pick your sister up from ballet practice." These commericials are good-natured, but they reveal a lot.

Here are the facts:

If you carry the 11 states of the South, you are halfway to being President. The South also has a fourth of the House of Representative and a fifth of the Senate. For a region that generally votes as a bloc, that's a lot, and you want it, if you want to move the world in your direction. Can you do it without the South? Sure...but's it's a LOT easier to do with the South.

[ieoeja]

55. The problem is Southern DUers.

They keep writing:

You can't win without the South.
You can't win the South without a Southerner.
Nobody is going to vote for someone from the Northeast.

I have never, ever read someone from the West Coast, Mountains/Plains, Midwest, or Northeast make those claims. Everybody not living in the South is an American. Not American first, midwesterner second. American ONLY.

Twenty-four of the fifty governors in this country were not born in that state. That is how little everybody not living in the South cares about ones state of origin.

[carolinayellowdog]

64. Any statement that "THE problem is..." is oversimplifying

Every one of the statements you attribute to Southern DUers in general is an outright falsehood. Of course Dems can win without a single Southern state, but it hardly gives any margin of error. Dems can't "win the South" at all in terms of carrying every Southern state, with or without a Southerner. No one has *ever* said that NOBODY would vote for a Northeastern candidate. What a lineup of strawmen.

I've never said any of those things and the overwhelming majority of DUers from the South haven't either. The few who do are *the* problem in exactly what sense? To say that something is *the* problem is to deny that anything else is a problem at all. Endless abuse here of Southerners, not a problem? A dozen Western states totally hopeless for Dems, not a problem? To say that everyone outside the South is free of regional loyalties and prejudices is laughable. I've lived in enough places to know better than that.

Correcting your statements to what I think the majority of Southern DUers who have commented on this subject do believe:

1. Some southern states are winnable and should not be written off

2. Southern voters are more likely to vote for a Southern candidate than a Northeasterner

3. Northeastern candidates are especially vulnerable to being portrayed as liberal elitists (which hurts them in plenty of non-Southern states)

BTW Virginia's governor was born in Connecticut.

[Touchdown]

72. It's the Southern self importance that really gets me.

You don't ask for any support, you (and this is a regional statement) demand it. You talk as if nobody else in the country matters. And what he said is not false. I've read them all numerous times myself.

" Endless abuse here of Southerners, not a problem? A dozen Western states totally hopeless for Dems, not a problem? "

I'm a westerner. We delivered New Mexico in 2000. You go on about your "endless abuse" fantasy, when you outright insult westerners in the very next sentence, and you want our support? Crocodile tears, I say!

Arizona is very much in play, Nevada is looking very positive, New Mexico will deliver, and Montana has a very huge union population, and care about the environment, Then there's Colorado...

and when you count Nader's with Gore's in 2000...Colorado is pretty close.
Gore...738,227
Nader..91,434

That's 829,661 compared to Bush's 883,748. Colorado has a big Green party membership, they will not go to Nader this time, and there are just as many pissed at Bush about the loss of high tech jobs here as there are in the South. And...Kerry was born on an Army base here, if you want to get regional about it! If Coloradans weren't just ignored (Bush has been here twice, Cheney once since the primaries started...where were the Democrats last fall? I bet the South!)...It may be a tall order, but this state might pull it off. HHow can you know if it doesn't electorally exist?

So what else in your "dozen hopeless states" is left ?
1. Utah
2. Idaho
3. Wyoming
Wow, a dozen! Here's a clue, dirt can't vote.

But I guess we're just hopeless, because the South is just too important to ignore, so we ignore someone else, as in every year...The west doesn't get any money, no visits, and no support, because the South would cry about all "this abuse". At least we vote for whoever's on the ticket...regardless of where they came from...even if the Dems wrote us off years ago.

[carolinayellowdog]

79. Wild misreadings lead to real nastiness

Not just in your post, but in general, it seems that the more extremely snarky people are, the more likely it is that they have totally misunderstood what they're attacking.

1. I'm neither asking nor demanding support from anyone for anything, just objecting to writing off an entire region. Although I vote in VA and live half the time in NC, I wouldn't advise Kerry to devote any time or money to either of these states because they're hopeless. However, that is not true of the entire South. Nor have I noticed DU Southerners asking or demanding support, just objecting to the whole region being written off and its inhabitants relentlessly insulted here.
2. If I were fantasizing, I'd choose to imagine a time when Southerners are not regularly insulted here, when it would end. Saying that the abuse is endless is more an extrapolation from 2 years plus of observation than anything else. Hope I'm wrong and it can end. And the DU South-bashing experience does not at all fit any preconceived notions I had. Have traveled in all regions of the country for many years and never, never been subjected to insults and abuse for being Southern. ONLY HERE AT DU.
3. No insult was intended when saying that a dozen states are hopeless, any more than saying the same about some Southern states. Here are the Bush/Gore victory margins for 12 states in your region (and I include Great Plains in the West BTW):UT 40 percentage points, ID 39, AK 31, NB 29, ND 28, MT 25, SD 23, OK 22, KS 20, WY forgot to write down but more than 30, CO 8, AZ 6. Hope you are right about the latter 2 but compare these Southern states' margins: FL 0, TN 3, AR 6, VA, LA, both 8.
4. I said the statements were false, and they are. I didn't say that no one had made them, and implicitly acknowledged they had.

It's an interesting mind-f**k to attack someone or a group of people intensely while at the same time insisting that all such attacks are a fantasy on the part of the targets thereof.

As for this business of Southern self-importance, it is a matter of history that the South has had a huge influence in determining which party occupies the WH. I'd rather never see or write the words South or Southerner here again, because the real importance they have here seems to be to serve as a lightning rod for anger that ought to be directed at Republicans, PERIOD.

[Touchdown]

84. Once again...it's all about you!

I wasn't being nasty. I'm Irish. You'll know it when I get nasty, Pal. The will be NO mistaking it.

" Nor have I noticed DU Southerners asking or demanding support, just
objecting to the whole region being written off and its inhabitants relentlessly insulted here."

Then your not paying enough attention. I wasn't being insulting, and very few comments from this, and the many other threads have been real observations, and genuine criticisms about the South and Southern attitudes. Because a couple of people say "fuck the South" does not make it "relentless", unless honest criticism is considered "insulting" by you, which tells me that thick skin may be a health problem in your region.

"Have traveled in all regions of the
country for many years and never, never been subjected to insults and abuse for being Southern. ONLY HERE AT DU.
... No insult was intended when saying that a dozen states are hopeless, any more than saying the same about some Southern
states. "

You can't have it both ways. Your crying foul at the percieved hostility towards southerners cannot be taken seriously when you give such a plastic and disingenuous "well, I didn't mean it THAT way" apology. Again, if it's criticism you find insulting, then it's about you, not the rest of the country.

Regarding your numbers...why do you think they came out that way? Prehaps it's because Gore rarely visited any state out here, and the Dems didn't spend a dime in the entire mountain region. They were spending too much time and money trying to win the south, which they didn't do either. Mid-western states are NOT the same as Western (mountain) ones, do not confuse the two. Also, your point is misleading, because you failed to include Ms, Al, Ga, NC, and SC. If your going to include gun happy Wy, and Mormon Id and Ut, then at least be fair about the comparison.

"It's an interesting mind-f**k to attack someone or a group of people intensely while at the same time insisting that all such attacks
are a fantasy on the part of the targets thereof."

Again...when I intensely attack you, you'll know it. I was giving criticism. I can't help it if you think your region is above reproach and warrants none of it. The rest of this country has had to coddle your region, and cowtow to the demands of your region for 150 years, yet you feel insulted, because the rest of us have to live in a country where the South dictates terms to everybody else, and many of us a sick and tired of it. Gay marriage would've passed 10 years ago, if it wasn't because of this control.

I owe no apologies to anyone from the South, as I didn't create this regionalism...the South did.

[Art_from_Ark]

75. In the case of Arkansas, at least, you CAN'T win as a Dem

unless there's a Southerner on the ticket. You'd have to go back all the way to Harry Truman to find a Dem ticket that Arkansas voted for that didn't have at least one Southerner on it.

1952-- VP John Sparkman, Alabama
1956-- VP Estes Kefauver, Tennessee
1960-- VP Lyndon Johnson, Texas
1964-- Pres Lyndon Johnson, Texas
1968-- Pres George Wallace, former Dem, Alabama
1976-- Pres Jimmy Carter, Georgia
1992-- Pres Bill Clinton, Arkansas
1996-- Pres Bill Clinton, Arkansas

[damnyankee2601]

59. Pretty self cotradictory logic.

I mean, first you say that Southerners don't care what anybody thinks (granted;) and then you claim that others should care what you think. You can't have it both ways. Either stop giving the rest of the country the finger, or just accept that the people that you flip off won't want to invite you to dinner. And if your neighbor is the guy doing the flipping off, maybe you should correct him instead of congratulating him.

I have lived in the South and been treated like shit just for being a Damn Yankee Librull for 4 years now, and I have lost all sympathy for Southern Independence. You tried to secede and LOST. Try it again, and you'll lose again. Either you're an AMERICAN or your NOT.

And yes, I am pissed off. Tell it to your Clampett pals that throw bottles at me on my bicycle.

[arko]

101. This is a good example

Being from western Arkansas I am not handicapped by the good manners of my brethren from the deeper south. We are not quite as smooth and tend to speak a little more bluntly here. I think the man made a good point.

I guess everyone can't be expected to understand what it is like to love your home state. A place where home isn't just a place to hang your hat, its where your dad and his dad were born, died and are buried. Its where friendships last a lifetime and everybody counts.

Yeah, my neighbors nose into my business a little more than I like, but I rather live here, than some other place where no one cared.

If you live in the south you have earned your name. As I recall a yankee comes, visits and leaves. A Damn Yankee comes and stays.

I've traveled among the Yankee, seen them in their natural habitat. While you can find good and bad among any group, I must say that in general I find them to be a sorry lot. Ill mannered, rude, poorly dressed, unmotivated, and possessing an arrogance that is undoubtedly a result of their extremely limited intelligence. They have no since of honor, honesty is lost among them, they'd rather lie than tell the truth. Their women are some of the ugliest on earth, mean faced, clipped haired and foul mouthed.

I guess I can't really blame the ones that call it quits and move down here. I wouldn't want to live up there either.

I prefer a canoe paddle for spanking a bicycling yank. Bottles are messy and can only be used once. A good canoe paddle can be used over and over and is quite effective when held out of the passenger side of a fast moving pickup with a rebel flag and a nascar sticker on the back glass.

Just keep in mind while you bash the south, at least one of us doesn't care any more for yanks than you do for southerners.

As for what the rest of these United States thinks about the south, frankly my dear I don't give a damn.

[Bridget Burke]

53. If CNN says it, it must be true!

Some people will swallow anything.

[SmileyBoy]

54. I think there are certain southern states we can win...

...and certain southern states that are just hopeless for the Democratic party.

I think with a little good ol-fashioned elbow grease, we could take Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana, Georgia, North Carolina and Tennessee.

Virginia, South Carolina, Mississippi, Texas and Kentucky are hopeless, IMO.

[Stuckinthebush]

58. Take Alabama off that list

No amount of elbow grease will give us Alabama.

I have battled here for too long...we just can't get 51% of Alabamaians to vote for the Dem presidential candidate.

[Jack from Charlotte]

60. Bobby Lee's been dead for 130 some years.....

so I'd agree. Having a dead guy on the ticket is not helpful. Cheney's only mostly dead (..Mad Max in Princess Bride) so that's an advantage. Sort of. Usually.

Though I've lived in The South all my life..... I tend to agree. Most, if not all of The Southern states are voting for AWOL.

I just think Florida could be won with my frat brother, Bob Graham, on the ticket.

[eissa]

61. Bob

has always been my choice for VP; I think he would complement any ticket. I'd love to see him debate that dick.

[Buns_of_Fire]

62. Bob Graham might just wind up on the ticket...

...but that's a whole 'nother thread.

I'd pretty-much write off Alabama and Mississippi, though. Virginia does have a Dem governor, but I don't think I'd count on that for much help. I think I'd look more towards Georgia, Florida (an excellent place to slam bunnypants* on the Social Security issue, IMHO), Arkansas, and (sort-of) Tennessee.

[heidiho]

65. I Did Not Mean for this thread to be in any way critical of the south

I have lived in Georgia and South Carlina for two years each respectively. My opinion is that the friends that I made there (and continue to have to this day) are interested in exactly the same issues that we are up here in the northern part of the country - jobs, safety, the economy and the integrity of the man occupying the White House.

Now with mills closing (especially textiles which are a lifeblood in the southern states) my guess would be that everyone in this country who is living in an industrialized area realizes that BUSH/CHENEY is terrible for our economy.

No matter how they feel about civil rights, patriotism, football or NASCAR, jobs should be an extremely important issue there so my thinking is that perhaps the Dems can gain some footholds.

[annagull]

66. Louisiana, Arkansas, Florida, maybe even Tenn. and VA

These states are in play, especially LA.. I think Bushco* are underestimating the anger out there about jobs and economy.

[enki23]

71. the south is heavily dominated by idiots and assholes

not everyone, or every place. but this is one of those issues that seems little more than a matter of definition. the south is overwhelmingly dominated by republican voters. republican voters are either idiots or assholes. therefore, of those who vote, the south is heavily dominated by idiots and assholes.

[dae]

95. Then according to the electoral college the North would have more

idiots and a$$holes than the South, using your reasoning; millions, and millions more.:kick:

edited; to tone down after cooling off

[kayell]

74. I often wonder to whose advantage it is to insult and alienate southerners

from the democratic party. Especially when the vicious level of invective against any and all southerners includes not only those economically and educationally disadvantaged by corporate greed, and the high percentage of black southerners, but also strikes out against those Southerners here at DU of a decidedly progressive, even activist persuasion. I'm going to have to go ponder on this some more.

[QC]

87. The only advantage it offers

is that it allows some alleged liberals a chance to put "progressive" windowdressing on their tiresome, garden variety prejudices and display them without any risk of getting banned.

[arewethereyet]

76. no, forget the south with Kerry as the nominee

Cafferty is spot on.

[JPace]

78. I live in Western North Carolina,

the factory closings the past year has been
shocking for everyone around here. It is also
noticed that the problem is not being addressed
by this administration. Job loss has a profound
effect on one's ability to focus on the party
that is talking about putting you back to work.

Don't give up on the South....it was once firmly
Democratic and I believe one day will be that
way again.

[DemoTex]

90. Maybe, maybe not JP.

I just drove by the padlocked Coats-American plant between Brevard and Rosman today. Economically, the Carolina's are ripe for the Democrat's picking.

However, it is still a weird place (western NC). I am so sick of seeing old rattletraps with "We Still Pray" bumper stickers that I could scream. Spit in one hand and pray in the other, and see which fills up first (to paraphrase Harry Crews' The Gospel Singer). Or "Guns, God, and Rush Keep Us Free." Almost as bad as Texas.

[Dob Bole]

80. We actually don't need Cafferty or Robert E. Lee..1st Repub in 130 years

Georgia, for the very first time, will probably be out of play. But there are still Florida, West Virginia, Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky as possibilities. Several Southern states still have 2 Democratic Senators. The only thing different is that the South is no longer SOLID, i.e. there is now a Republican Party.

And as soon as Zell Miller fades away, Georgia will no longer be a problem. We still dominate the state govt. And a 2-party system is good, IMO, because it lets politicians keep each other accountable.

[w4rma]

83. JOBS. TRADE. OUTSOURCING. Focus like a laser. (n/t)

[AgadorSparticus]

113. amen to that!! we need to focus on what counts--jobs, economy

healthcare wouldn't hurt either.

[Redleg]

86. Cafferty is just repeating the conventional wisdom. He doesn't really

think for himself. That goes for most of the rest of the mainstream media.

[arewethereyet]

88. take it from a southerner

its conventional wisdom for a reason

[dae]

92. His a$$, he wouldn't know a flapjack from a cowpie! POS!

:kick:

[greekspeak]

94. What is this with the whole South being so bad?

I am a new Southerner, a former midwesterner. I live in Tallahassee, FL, and it is FAR less conservative than southwest Missouri was. I see signs for DEMOCRATS everywhere. Kucinich. Dean. Kerry. The people-people of ALL ages-are much more laid back. I am so glad to get away from that dour, pietistic, self righteous place called the Ozarks that I could dance in the streets. Maybe it is the south central you southern slammers should look at. Texas. Oklahoma. Kansas. Missouri. I've spent considerable time in each. Give me the South any day.

[malachibk]

100. It's about God and race...

Dean was right. Poor word choice with the whole "confederate flag" business, but Repugs are quite adept at commiserating with poor Southerners on God and making them think immigration and affirmative action are to blame for their lot in life. Democrats will reclaim the South when whites stop being afraid to have honest discussions about race, racism and the implications thereof.

[Jacobin]

110. DumbAss Cafferty's Famous Last Flatulent Words

I live in Louisiana.

I'm here to tell you that a majority will hold their noses and vote for Kerry (in spite of his idiotic vote on IWR and NOT, I tell you, because of it).

Louisiana is becoming an ABB state.