So should we start packing yet, or something?

[Mairead]

Soros is sounding pessimistic and talking of moving to Europe, where democracy and the rule of law seems to be in better shape.

Is it time yet for the rest of us to start thinking about doing something to save ourselves?

[ComerPerro]

1. Wait until the election

Then, if Bush wins, get ready to get the hell out....

[DoNotRefill]

21. It'll be too late then...

Remember, if Bush wins, there's no transition time. Expect him and Ashcroft to come down with both boots.

[Karenina]

51. A post from DoNotRefill grounded in reality.

The "infrastructure" has already been set up. Anyone who believes he will simply be able to "pick up and leave" should invest in Evian first.
How many of you speak a second language? Have you ever spent any extended time OUTSIDE of the U.S.? Are you comfortable with folks who don't look like you or THINK about things the same way you do? Consider the question, in light of the incredible destruction American foreign policy has wreaked upon the ROTW for DECADES, WHO THE HELL WOULD WELCOME A FLOOD OF SELF-CENTERED, SELF-INVOLVED, ARROGANT, WHITE ASSHOLES INTO THEIR COUNTRIES??? The "Ugly American" was written LONG ago. The fate of the entire globe rest in your hands. If you with your Constitution (an incredibly ENLIGHTENED DOCUMENT) and myths of equality and liberty cannot defeat the *monster that threatens to devour us all, WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WOULD WANT YOU???

[CityZen-X]

56. Live With The Greek's

I read somewhere that they will inherit the Earth!

[Kenneth ken]

2. D'you suppose

Soros would adopt us?

I keep thinking that the US will go bankrupt before the "Empire" gets going too strongly. But if that happens, it will create an undertow sort of effect that will destabilize a lot of the rest of the world, too. So, if you go, where would you go?

We can't afford our debt, let alone rising deficits, and I don't think the world would be amused if the misadministration simply declared the debt null and void. So, we will continue to borrow until the world decides (or can no longer afford to) stop lending.

[sweetheart]

3. Why?

Is there really a sense of AWOL the liar winning? Don't you think
this stupid attempt at a constitutional amendment will put a firm
defeat on his campaign, along with the mess in iraq?

Possibly, if you had to sit out a presidential dictatorship for a
term, scottish universities allow you to stay and work for years
afterwards, and clearly, if things work career wise, the stay can
be extended indefinitely like permanent resident or british citizen.

Scotland has a population fall crisis, and needs immigrants... just
a thought. The university course gets you job-credentialed for the
local economy, and you'll never have to even think about an american
president ever again if you don't want to.

[TreasonousBastard]

5. Looking for immigrants, are they...

but, alas, they are not looking for me. A bit too old and not enough investment capital. Most countries I would have to buy my way into with the skill set I have.

Spent some time over there, though, and absolutely fell in love with the place.

(and yes, I did eat the haggis. can't say I liked it much, but I did eat it)

[sweetheart]

13. Scottish university tuitions

are pretty dang cheap by american standards. It may be less
investment capital than you expect.

Also, lifelearning is quite the thing these days and 1 out of 10
grad students is mature/old.

That could get you a Ph.D. programme in geology from university of
the highlands at inverness... a masters in video game programming
from Dundee.... If one were to consider attending this coming fall,
now would be the time to research, apply and prepare to put one#s
stuff inna storage.

(Haggis is good, when i've been tricked in to eating it.. :-) )

The scottish universities are excellent. The food and drink are
quite good, and the company is good hearted.

Likely they ARE looking for you, but it is a huge change to do
such a thing.

[leftchick]

18. how old is "too old to be wanted"?

My hubby and I are in our fourties with two young boys. I am seriously considering this.

[sweetheart]

23. You're fine

The issue in the UK with immigrants, like in all places, the local
people don't want to have the services their taxes pay for, abused
by free riders. By this, primarily, they mean welfare benefits, and
to a lesser degree healthcare.

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ This is the UK "INS" website
and you get the straight poop.

Here is the scottish government statement:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/about/FCSD/MCG-NW/00018738/Introduction.aspx

Scotland wants immigrants who can help the country build businesses
and develop its economy. Bottom line, if you think you can contribute
to that, there is a place.

Here are links to all scottish universities:
http://www.planning.ed.ac.uk/scottish_heis.htm

Once you're accepted, the visa for higher education can be
got at the british embassy, and when you enter the UK with the
visa it becomes valid as long to finish your degree. Then per the
scottish government website link i posted, you can get extensions
to work, and take a path towards permanent residency.

Fourties are fine. ;-)

Once in scotland, other things work themselves out.

[leftchick]

25. Thanks sweetheart!

and you sure are one! :)

[Emillereid]

64. Is it easier to emigrate if you're parents were Scottish or British --

my husband's a canadian and his father was born in Scotland and his maternal grandfather was born in Wales. I mean we could easily go to Canada, but something about Europe calls us.

[leftchick]

74. my husband has Scottish ancestors...

His great grandfather came over. Our last name is Scottish. Would that help us more? I am liking this idea!

[TreasonousBastard]

35. The change would be easy...

if I could afford it, but I would still have to buy my way in somehow.

Pushing 60, you see, and even the Canucks refuse to take me without a huge wad of cash or a business ready to go.

That said, I would still love to find a way to retire to Edinburgh.

[Mairead]

8. Regretably, I'm too old to be wanted

And once citizenship is given up, it can't be regained.

Great idea for the younger folk, though!

[sweetheart]

14. citizenship

The path of least resistance is "permanent residency" whilst
maintaining US citizenship, and even if, 5 years down the line,
you apply and get UK citizenship, the US one is valid unless you
take your passport to the embassy and turn it in.

The only reason to do that, is if world war is making a real problem,
or if you are very wealthy and the foreign tax exemption is not
enough so you pay big taxes to the US for nothing at all whilst
also being taxed in the nation you live.

It is rare, and pointless to dump a citizenship. I would not recommend it.

The best thing you can do is use it and vote democrat! :-)

[Mairead]

15. .

.

[havocmom]

52. Maybe we should advise the brightest of the younger set to head out

and us geezers with no medical insurance/care can take the risks inherent with saving the nation. I am almost at the point of nothing to lose and getting tired of untreated medical problems anyway.

[shirlden]

55. This old Mom

agrees with you. I would happily stay and fight the good fight if I knew my loved ones were safe in a more progressive country than ours is right now.

:kick:

[silver state d]

4. he is going down but......

how hard is it to emigrate to canada?????? I am only half kidding.

[_Jumper_]

10. Canada allows more immigrants per capita than any country...

...other than New Zealand.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/

That is a link to the Canadian government's English-language site about immigration.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/skilled/assess/index.html

This is a short test you can take to see if you would qualify as a skilled worker.

One more thing, for white people choosing between Canada and Europe is a a good choice but if you are non-white Canada is the place to go. Canada is probably the least racist country on Earth and is far less racist than Europe (most Europeans don't even support outlawing discrimination against minorities, according to the 2000 EU report on racism. In Canada and America over 4/5 of people do).

[SmileyBoy]

66. YESSS!!! I got the minimum score of 67!!!

And I kinda stretched the truth about family in Canada. I have distant relatives in Thunder Bay.

[Sugarbleus]

6. Unfortunately, I am ineligible to immigrate to anyplace that I know of..

Per chance, I looked up some immigration stuff for one country, after reading a thread on the subject for going to England. A person has to be WELL, skilled,self supporting (wealthy) or sponsored by a family member to stay or move to the country. Yikes! I'm doomed either way. I don't meet ANY of that criteria!

I can, however, urge my adult children to move if need be.

All of a sudden, our illegal immigration situation takes on new meaning for me! :(

[Mairead]

20. Don't feel alone, Sugar. I seem to be, too.

I took Canada's 'skilled worker' test and failed: too old.

[_Jumper_]

24. Refugee status

Perhaps you can emigrate by filing as a political refugee.

[Sugarbleus]

67. LOL that might be the ticket! eom

[gula]

29. If your kids should move to Canada then

they could sponsor you as a family member under the family reunification programme.

[Sugarbleus]

68. Yeah, good point n/t

[Kanary]

39. Me, too, Sugarbleus

If things get that bad, I'll be shut out here, (shredded safety net and all), and not welcome anywhere else.

I try not to think about it, because it reminds me of just how worthless I am, anywhere in the world. People care more about animals than about the likes of me.

Y'know, I'd like to see countries with a good Social Democratic system recognize what is going on here, and how many people are going to be ..... "disappeared", and take in those of us who are *not* able to take part in the "normal" capitalist system, then teach us how their system works, and some steps to take to implement it, so that when this country finally hits rock bottom (and it will!!), there will be many of us who can come back and help put a good system in place, with our new skills.

Well, it appeals to me.

Kanary

[strategery blunder]

61. And I'm too young

18 years of age. I failed the test badly as I have little work experience and have not yet had the chance to get a post-secondary degree, though I am in the process of getting one.

Umm...where do I go to escape the draft if Canada won't take me? Or do I just go to the university commons and burn myself as the Buddhist monks did to protest Diem?

It's too bad that my 100th post couldn't be more upbeat:cry:

Edit: Would Canada really take political refugees from America? I doubt it...

[Sugarbleus]

69. Chair, stay in school if you can. Try the "C.objector" status and are

you an only child??? Hang in there.

[strategery blunder]

79. Trust me, I've looked into the only child thing

They got rid of that exemption

If I take the medical exam in hopes of failing it, do I automatically forfeit a chance for CO status?

[Sugarbleus]

87. I'm not sure but someone in here gave me a link to the C.O. option

it is for my 15 year old g.son. I'll look it up and post it in your mailbox. Some say, however, that one should be building a "file" for C.O. before they reach 18.....eek.

[strategery blunder]

81. They also got rid of student deferments nt

[Hekate]

71. Start checking out the universities and community colleges

Your age is the ideal time to be doing that particular thing. I don't know how high the costs are for foreign students though.

Hekate

[DarkSim]

7. Move to Finland.

Our emmigration laws are lean but if you can fit inside the immigration quota it's no problem.

[Mairead]

75. My only problem would be the language

Since it's in a different language group, I wonder whether I could learn it well enough to fit in. I know Svenska is almost an official second language in the border regions, but not learning Finnska would make me feel as though I were being rude and ungrateful.

[Piperay]

9. I am thinking about it

whether chimp gets in or Kerry does, things have gotten so bad here I wonder if it is to late to turn them around. :-( I'm not saying I will go immediately but I would like to leave within ten years. I will not give up citizenship though so the repugs can forget about having one less Democrat around because I will still vote no matter where I am living.

[_Jumper_]

11. Non-white DU'ers

If you are non-white, Canada is the place to go if you seek to leave America. Canada is probably the least racist country on Earth and is far less racist than Europe (most Europeans don't even support outlawing discrimination against minorities, according to the 2000 EU report on racism. In Canada and America over 4/5 of people do).

[izzie]

12. I guess I will stay, some of my family have been here since 1620

I am sure in this number of families we have been thought it all. Leaving England for Holland then here. Some down through NS, Canada to here. Few over the years after we were a country. All from England or Scotland. I am sure to make life better for the ones that did it. I just would not fit any place but here and as things go it will change. That you can be sure of. I also do not see things as the good old days. Each place in time is a good as the people make it. If enough people like thing it will stay this way and if not it changes. As a kid the KKK would turn up in the paper so things do move on.I will hate another 4 years of this group but I will hang in.

[aquart]

17. So, then. Nobody left in the old country?

Me, I got 'em spread all over: Russia, Germany, Israel, England, South Africa, Australia.....

I hate travel. I'll stay and drown in the tsunami that engulfs Manhattan.

[izzie]

19. Well if the Island goes I many be on water front land also.

So be it. I am still staying.

[aquart]

16. Europe doesn't want us.

Look for someone with a cute accent to marry. Or adopt you.

[Vernunft II]

28. Not true :P

My wife is from Rhode Island. I can bring the rest of her family if need be. Not that I think they´d want to leave, they all seem firmly entrenched and determined to change the US back to the place they grew up in.

[Sugarbleus]

70. Where are you vernunft? I'm glad you don't think

the whole world hates us. :D Thanks

[OKNancy]

22. Damn, I wake up really early

this morning, with a sore throat and and fever, and think..okay let's check out DU. What do I find but post after post of doom and gloom.

Snap out of it people. We have work to do.

[NJCher]

26. source for Soros

Do you have a link, Mairead? I'd like to read the remarks in context.


Cher

[Mairead]

32. What I have is a little second-hand, but

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1186440

Actually, on re-reading, I find that my basenote misstates the case a little. He said 'not yet'. I guess my feelings colored my perceptions.

[Loonman]

27. Soros is a fair-weather friend, then

If he's talking about moving to Europe.

[damnyankee2601]

30. Stand and fight.

I'm not going anywhere. I love this country and will fight the fascists in the street if I have to. Anything less is capitulation.

[JETS]

42. AMEN n/t

[fujiyama]

89. Just for kicks...

I took that Canadian immigration test and I failed.

Oh well, I'll just stay here, get a job, buy a gun (not just for jack boot thugs -- after all they ALWAYS are better armed -- but for the crime that will ensue with the second phase of the Bush economy), and leave only when it's so bad that it's impossible to stay.

We haven't lost yet.

[LoneStarLiberal]

31. If I Had Soros' Cash...You Bet

If I had the kind of financial resources George Soros has I sure as hell wouldn't keep them invested in the American financial markets nor wrapped up in American properties.

Don't get me wrong, there's money to be made in both areas, but the amount of risk in keeping large chunks of money in both areas has increased a great deal under George W. Bush's watch.

Since I do not have Soros' financial resources to concern myself with, I'm not actively looking to move. But you can rest assured that I'm keeping the passport handy and my investments in Australian bonds and Chinese equities (for the time being...) right now...

[Kanary]

40. Rich folk do not fare so well in Europe

There isn't that huge gap between the financial classes.

That's why the rich here in the US don't want anything to do with Social Democracies, European style.

He may leave the country, but you can be sure he would take Beeeeg steps to protect his wealth.

Kanary

[sweetheart]

43. are you kidding?

Whilst there is less of a gap between the richest and poorest on
average, europe has plenty of very rich folks. Soros' can afford
to buy a swiss citizenship if he wants one.

The european uber-wealthy are alive and kicking. There are a lotta
folks in europe who are right wing nutballs like bush, and they're
banging on the door of government using their traditional methods
of lying and repressing voters.

The rich do very well in europe. You don't even have to buy health
insurance, so you can save your money... i think you need more
exposure to europe. The stereotype you're singing from is as dead
as calling all americans stupid 'cuz bush is a doofus.

[Kanary]

47. Wellll, geee, Ah gess Ah missed...

There are some countries where huge wealth just isn't gonna be easy to hold on to.

Is Soros clever? Of course. He'll go where he can get away with it.

What I said was, he'll hafta work at it.

It's not as easy as the US to amass, and keep, great wealth.

Kanary

[sweetheart]

54. Well ummm... yes, you missed.

The statistical reality is that you are more likely to do "rags to riches" in europe than in the US. So, saying that its easier to
"amass" great wealth in the US, is "not true"

There are an aweful lotta very wealthy people in europe where the
term "old money" sorta comes from. The aristocracy, like the duke
of westminster have managed to sit on family wealth for generations.
It is easier to "keep" great wealth in europe. That is why soros
may seek refuge there.

As an american national, he will not be taxed on overseas earnings,
and can pretty much live and file his taxes anywhere.

Its pretty much the same on both sides of the atlantic. The rich
can afford the tax advise and the offshore structure of companies
it takes to de-nationalize wealth, and to keep it out of the grasp
of the taxman.

If you gave me 10 million dollars in treasury bonds, i'd liquidate,
them, turn them in to various euro-based currency accounts and
put them in a blind offshore trust, where i and the causes i
believe in are the beneficiaries. The europeans have developed
tax breaks and interntaional workarounds in tax law centuries before
americans even had enough cash to wonder about such things.

The american propagada will lead people to say sweeping ethnocentric
beliefs like that americans can amass and keep wealth "better" than
the rest of the world. The facts on the ground, however, show
america doing much better with poverty than wealth. Amassing
and keeping poverty is easy as hell in the US. You've got the sign
backwards, mate.

[ArkDem]

44. Yep. No aristocracy in any of the

European nations.

[CaptainClark23]

33. I sincerely hope

That the future of this Nation does not depend on you folks who would so easily leave your country behind. I also hope I don't ever have to count on any of you covering my back should things get as bad as they might.

I have overseas options, and I have made my contingency plans, as is prudent. But I fully intend to remain here and work to defend the home that my immigrant grandparents worked so hard to build. I will remain and try to take a principled and moral stand against the facistic forces that threaten to overthrow the principles of equality and liberty.

And what of the poor and oppressed that we all lament so fiercely? Think they have options? Hell no. This is where they live and die. This is where they remain. Any moralistic outpourings of angst that might come in the future as to the plight on the poor and disenfranchised in this country will ring hollow indeed seeing as you will all turn your backs on them and flee for your lives.

Go ahead. See how far you can run.

Fuck Soros, let him go then if he wants to.

I had planned to say more on this, but whats the point...if you all will so easily give up this battle for the future, then I give up on you too. I just hope theres not too damn many of you out there.

[sweetheart]

34. Overseas options work fine

To equate living overseas to abandoning america is pretty silly.
Wesley Clark did exactly that, does that not make him a patriot who
would defend you back?

The media attack on my religious group in 1996, made it so bad that
i left the US to find work, as the black listing and coordinated use
of prime time dateline and such to smear my buddhist group, did
little but entertain 40 million americans and drive "cult members"
overseas to have freedom of religion.

To use your words, "I hope I don't ever have to count on any of you
covering my back, should things get as bad as they might."

Well, you did not cover my back, so i left. I might return one day
in the future, or i might not. The real irony, is that the place i
live in, is the origin for many 1000's of scottish people who went
to colonize america in centuries past. They left when their property
rights were violated during the highland clearances. Had the english
not burned peoples homes and such in those clearances, likely there
would be no "Mac<xxx>" names in US phone books. Centuries later,
this american, had the state/media monopoly attack my freedom
of religion, and my right to work, and similarly deprived of human
rights, much like the original scottish diaspora, american diaspora
has come full circle back to scotland to find freedom.

The is no nobility in sticking it out in the US for no political
representation at all. The us government, and all its political
parties stand for nothing that i stand for. My vote does not count,
beyond dennis kucinich. I figure i've given america the best
decades of my life, and the country, "my" country has only ever
attacked me... fuck the political america, and fuck people who say
leaving the evil political regime is cowardly.

Those same folks, who chided german academics as they pulled out of
germany during intensive nazification half a century ago, ate their
patriotic words hoping to change germany from within. I hope this
time round, it works better from within.

I'm covering you back. I'm voting democrat.

[boobooday]

36. Only if Bush steals the election again.

Perhaps I should spend election night on the border?

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[hippiechick]

37. Yes. n/t

:hippie:

[slackmaster]

38. If it gets really bad I'll be packing

But not in the way you meant.

http://www.packing.org

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DiverDave]

46. Buh-Bye

Thanks for you input.
Oh, just one more thing, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything.

[Codeblue]

45. I was thinking about leaving

just to get away from America for a bit and get some outside perspective on it. Wanted to go to Nepal and learn some things from the Buddhists lamas there. But then I decided to stay and start a revolution instead. Then I read about Peak Oil and decided that I'll just wait until most people are dead before freedom arrives. Then I re-decided to leave and learn about the world without an American bias on it. My dad is Canadian, which makes it easier for me...but being only 18...I dont know. I have no idea what to do.

[sweetheart]

48. Surfing the himalayas

If you want to learn buddhist lama things, it is more present
in the US and western nations than in nepal. The civil war
in nepal is problematic, and it is NOT safe.

The marxist rebels are more in the countryside where you're pining
to go, and the tourists are fair game.

If you're wanting to meet some enlightened people to get a reality
check on life, here are a few:

www.gangaji.org - Profoundly enlightened american woman, teaches in
the indian jnana yoga tradition of Ramana Maharshi

www.adida.org - profoundly enlightened american teaches in california

http://www.ripaladrang.org/teachers.htm - tibetan buddhists who
escaped tibet with monastaries in nepal, india, USA and europe

I respect the romantic image of india and nepal as great seats of
buddhism, rather today, i'd say "buddhist history", but the seat
of buddhism is in the west. If you've gotta see the himalayas, at
least avoid nepal and go to the indian himalaya. It is safer and
you can get a full dose of every religion in the indian subcontinent.

namaste, Good hunting.

-sweetheart

[DrWeird]

57. Ugh.

Most of the buddhism I hear about in the US is the phony Hollywood Steven Seagal Scientology crap. Not saying it doesn't exist, I've just never seen it.

My stepsister and her husband spent a couple of years in Nepal in the Peace Corp. They had a very nice time.

[sweetheart]

58. nepal can be tricky

I was attacked there in 96 "before" the maoist uprising... just by
being obviously a tourist and walking down the street in the worlds
second poorest nation. (at the time). I love the place, but was
really put off by the violence. I got trapped in kashmir when they
closed it in august 1998, and i spent time running away from armed
police shooting bullets at crowds. Since then, there've been
innumerable kidnappings and deaths in kashmir. I realized at the
time that i could be killed in this proxy-civil war, so i dressed
up completely in indian clothes and got out through ladakh. It only
takes one close call to discover that messing with rebels in a civil
war where americans are hated, is not wise.

Nepal is a safe destination, just like columbia is... just if
something happens, as it only does to a small percentage... is it worth that risk.

I agree about the phony hollywood steven segal crap, and this is
put forward by our corporate media state. I submit that anything
the media state puts forward serves their interests in proving
all traditions to be fraudulent and coercive.

That said, traditions the media ignores and has no awareness of,
are potentially very real and authentic. To accept that there are
living super enlightened people on the planet today, would subvert
the entire secular prison state they're building, so all real
mystics must by state-momentum, be "proven" frauds, by never engaging
them and whispering behind their backs. All people who've met
and who would authenticate profoundly enlightened folks, are
deemed "brainwashed" or some such, so that the only credible witnesses
are people who've never me or studied with such individuals.

I recommended 3, completely authentic 5-star enlightened traditions.
If you in your heart could accept the possibility, i wholly
recommend meeting one... Gangaji is probably easiest to meet of the
3 i posted. Adida will be hardest. He's got thousands of devotees
and works with an inner circle of advanced adepts... he's got
no time for people who don't believe enlightenment exists.
The Tibetan guys have a whole system, albeit a tad racist, that
puts the non-tibetan (Race) buddhists in to a second category, as if
to be an authentic buddhist, you have to have tibetan skin.

That said, the site i posted has "Namkha Drimed" on it, who is
easily one of the 10 most powerful people on the planet today. He
is very much out of the public eye, and teaches direct enlightenment
in his monastary in nepal, his monastary in orissa, india and in
new york. He escaped with his monastic clan, the chinese invasion
of tibet and is a living master who was in this life, leader of a
tibetan lineage.

I've had profound darshan with all 3 of these masters and would
vouch for them myself. Bottom line, enlightened people usually
have 1000's of devotees (as with all 3 listed). They've got 24x7
working like coaches with 1000's of athletes in the infinite
awakening process of self discovery. They're too busy to mess with
chroinic "show me" nonbelievers... Yet to show up and meet them,
is more sincere, as it has clearly put the nonbelief to a side for
the potential of discovering something profound.

Many folks believe that nepal is filled with buddhist enlightened
gurus who will reorder their lives. My point to the original
poster, was that if his soul really wants the buddhist bit, best
to separate it from any illusions about nepal. The distance to
travel is in inner space, not outer. The guru comes when the
devotee is ready, and is generally next-door, not on the other
side of the planet. But if you're not ready to see the buddhist
next door, and must climb a frikking mountain, eating bad food
in a third world country to see a buddhist... likely appearances
are still a major issue on the path, and perhaps such a devotee
is not ready for advanced teachings.

Namaste,
-s

[Codeblue]

59. Thank you for everything you have said.

I was aware that there are many buddhist temples and the like in the U.S. and Canada, but had no idea of the presence of so many enlightened individuals. The only reason I would go to Nepal or India or any other place is just to get away from America for a while and see things from their perspective. But thanks for the posts.

[Hekate]

72. Buddhism in America...

... is vibrant and growing, far beyond its "Beat Zen" beginnings, as important as they were. Many if not most of Thich Nhat Hanh's books seem to be aimed at Americans, and are readily available in libraries and bookstores. You might look up books by Jack Kornfield ("A Path with Heart"), Rita Gross, and Joanna Macy--all American Buddhists with scholarly credentials. The poet Gary Snyder, a Buddhist.

It seems to me that out of the tragedies of war-torn Vietnam and Tibet a great gift has come to the Western world, in the presence of Thich Nhat Hanh and the Sogyal Rimpoche, respectively. What we do with that gift is up to us.

Hekate

[buddhamama]

77. it exists

the buddhists i know are quiet and do not advertise themselves.

if you're interested here's a link
to one place where we can be found

http://www.bpf.org/html/home.html

[Desertrose]

49. definitely getting the passport current....

I hear Mexico is affordable :)

Peace
DR

But I gotta give DK credit for staying and fighting......sigh...how's he do it? I don''t know if I'm as strong as he is.....

[Mairead]

50. I know wotcha mean, DR

I've thought about Mexico too...Chiapas, particularly. But I know I could never stand the heat--I start getting skin conditions when the temp goes above 80, or even 72 if it's humid.

[stepnw1f]

53. Snap Out of It!

Here's ya chance to fight, and I mean really fight. I'm staying and fighting for what I believe is right. You depressed push-overs can quit if you want to. I changed my mind. I'm staying.

[govegan]

60. Soros is extremely wealthy.

I never have and never will take my cues from those who have not escaped the menace of riches. If Soros, or Gates, or Allen or Buffet, want to leave, we would probably be much better off without them. Of course it would be nice if they took chimpy with them.

The neo-fascist powers attempting to increase their iron grip on American society did not begin in 2000 or even 1980. Most who understand history, politics and culture probably would not dispute that.

I think of Scott and Helen Nearing, known and connected with other cultures and groups the world over. When they abandoned mainstream American culture and society to continue their work in earnest, they gave careful thought to leaving the US. They decided to stay and fight the beast as best they could. They will always be an example for tough, independent thinkers everywhere. They truly loved liberty and social justice.

How far can one go to avoid living an existence dictated by expediency, custom and socially accepted norms?

How many today can grasp the significance of actions such as those of Scott, as he described in his autobiography:

"There was another such occasion, during the German inflation, after the 1914-1918 war, Louis Mayer, a Milwaukee socialist and sculptor, and I had bought some German municipal bonds. After the post-war rehabilitation of Germany these bonds, for which I had paid $800, were worth some $60,000. I pondered the situation. Here were war profits on a fantastic scale that must be paid out of the exploited labor of the German people. I put the bonds into the fireplace and reduced them to ashes. Once again I had escaped the menace of riches."

Could you imagine Dick Cheney pondering whether or not he deserved his Haliburton annual bonus compensation, or whatever he calls it?

Would chimpy question whether or not his Iraq war kickbacks are too large?

[Mairead]

76. um, 'escape the menace of riches' is quite a relative term, I think

Having, around 1920, $800 to spend on bonds and a fireplace to burn them in was almost the definition of riches!

Hardship is much easier to bear when you can do it in comfort.

[govegan]

80. Yes, Scott was once an highly respected teacher.

Scott's income was primarily from his teaching at the University of Pennsylvania, the Wharton School. That was until he was blackballed from teaching because of his strong advocacy of laws preventing child labor, here in the US of course, and other social justice issues. He also was known to defend socialist economic principles.

I don't know if you are familiar with his work, but the Good Life Center is dedicated to Advancing Helen and Scott Nearing's commitment to social justice and simple living, and preserving their last hand-built home. You can check them out at http://www.goodlife.org/

Scott and Helen did indeed know how to live in comfort, but in highly relative terms. Their teachings and examples, many of which are found in the classic Living the Good Life, have inspired many to seek comfort outside of the popular Madison-Avenue-inspired definitions of "comfort."

I find it extremely sad that grand economic success today is so highly respected and valued. The profits of the monopolist-capitalist elite would make $800, probably even in 1820, seem like a thimble at the seashore. Even when he was the most well-off, Scott was never wealthy compared to Soros or the high-flyers of Wall Street, where the Hudson is drunk on its oil.

Nothing wrong with comfort, even a little Southern Comfort can perhaps to the body good from time to time.

[Mairead]

82. "seem like a thimble at the seashore"

Oh absolutely! I wasn't trying to suggest that the Nearings were wealthy in absolute terms, only in relative ones (have you seen a plot of wealth distribution? Talk about non-linear!).

[Emillereid]

62. Do you have a link regarding Soros moving to Europe?

If the Bushit wins we are planning on leaving too.

[berry]

65. I think this is a quotation from Brian Lamb's Booknotes interview

with Soros on Sunday night. I don't know if those are available for web viewing at c-span.org, but maybe. The date would be Feb 29.

Anyway, Brian asked him if he had plans to move abroad since he was so down on the direction America was moving in (not a direct quote, I'm just trying to remember). And Soros said "No." I think Brian asked again, pressing him, and he said that he didn't think so but who can say about the future. So he left it open. (I think this is the gist, anyway.) For sure, he didn't announce that he was giving up on America anytime soon.

Who knows how bad it will get, and how we will feel then.... (Like most of the posters here, I think I can remain hopeful until Nov. But if * gets another term--by fair or foul means--I might have to think of leaving for my mental health. I haven't planned for it though. Maybe I should, just in case.)

[notbush]

63. All this gloom and doom

Makes me want to puke.
Either most of the posters here are real young and can't remember any setbacks in the past, or you haven't read anything about politics in America in the last 2 hundred years.
If Kerry wins he will not create a utopia that will satisfy everyone.
If Bush wins, it will not be the end of America as we know it.
Both parties overpromise....they always have.

[Mairead]

78. "real young and can't remember any setbacks in the past"

Actually, it's because I'm not real young and do remember past 'setbacks' that I'm so appalled. We only get one life apiece, and while it's painless for us now to look back on, e.g., the McCarthy era and think about the blacklists, the people whose lives were wrecked really suffered badly.


In Germany after the war, the Americans were taking a very self-righteous stance and criticising the Germans viciously because of Naziism and the camps. Naturally nearly every German claimed that they had had no idea that the camps existed and that, had they known, they never would have permitted it. So they were guilt-free and the Americans should please shut the hell up.

One woman I knew, whose husband was a retired mechanical engineer who'd worked on the rockets at Peenemünde, just shook her head and said of course people knew. Anyone anywhere near one of the camps knew. It was impossible not to know. But that didn't make the Americans right. Most of her countrymen were right to disclaim responsibility because when it's the government doing it, with whom does one lodge the complaint? You go to the police station and you're the one who ends up in the cell with all your bones broken.

The most you could do, IF you happened to have been in exactly the right place at the right time and IF you were prominent enough that the Gestapo couldn't simply Nacht-und-Nebel you, was maybe make existence a little easier for one or two of the victims with a gift of food or clothing, or the opportunity to rest for an hour. Oskar Schindler's achievement was nothing short of miraculous, but it still depended on his having been in the right place at the right time with the right background and social position.

I point this out because we now have at least one camp, with prisoners who have committed no crimes in the USA. And no one is doing anything about it. Because, of course, when it's the government doing it, with whom does one lodge the complaint? How could we get our home-grown Gestapo to close the camp and let those people go home? How? I can think of no way short of actual blood-in-the-streets revolution. So we shrug and put them out of our minds. 'Life goes on, Indy.'

Some resistance really is useless, not because you'll be assimilated but because so many others already have been.

[dawn]

83. I agree about Kerry's win.

Even if Kerry wins, we still have the Republican House and Senate to deal with. Remember Newt Gingrich in the 90s?

[Karenina]

85. "If Bush wins, it will not be the end of America as we know it."

i beg to differ, notbush. America as I knew it is ALREADY DEAD. What I see from my perch in a "furrin land" is something TOTALLY UNRECOGNIZABLE, FRIGHTENING and emotionally DEVASTATING. I, for one , cannot "go home again" as the "home" I knew simply no longer exists.

[Hekate]

73. Thanks to everyone who helped educate me about where I might go

if I have to. I waver, depending on the latest outrage. These are dangerous people we are dealing with -- some are religious fanatics, some are corrupt beyond belief, and some are mad with power.

The poet Adrienne Rich says: "A patriot is one who wrestles for the soul of her country as she wrestles for her own being." I love this place, and I love the ideas this country was founded on; I love it that our Constitution and Bill of Rights invite us to reinterpret them in every generation, and that in every generation some new group has risen up to challenge the status quo.

I hate, loathe, fear, and despise what the BFEE is doing to my country. But if I (and we) don't speak out, who will? Who would our silence serve?

Two years ago I vowed to stay and oppose them. Yet ever since Bill Moyers explored the then-secret document called Patriot Act II a year ago, I have been thinking that I need to know which way the exit is -- just in case. The only relative I have abroad is one cousin in Canada; my husband and I are pushing 60; I cannot imagine leaving my adult kids behind to face whatever is coming.

Having information helps, though. Thanks again.

Hekate

[maveric]

84. I'll be "packing" but not to leave.

Its my country and I'm not about to walk away and let these nazi bastards take and destroy it.
I wish more on this board would adopt the same attitude.
You call yourselves "Patriots". Show it!

[Indiana Democrat]

86. We're going to win, but...

...if not, I'll eat my computer screen if even ONE of the chicken littles who skwak about leaving the country actually do.

America is much stronger than one stupid man and people know it, regardless of the breathless propaganda.

[sweetheart]

88. swallowing a computer screen

Speaking from this chicken little's experience, once you get out
of the US, there is a tendency to run silent and enjoy the peace of
not having american media blasting away, and american culture
blasting away.

When folks leave, you don't hear. The millions of americans who
live abroad are not on any census... and geez, you've gotta have a
real masochistic streak to bother with american politics once
abroad.

People don't leave because america is not strong. Heck, if they
built 100,000 nuclear weapons, it changes nothing about the systematic erosion of civil rights under the corporate decline of
the country these last 20 years.

It is not easy to move abroad, i'll grant you that. Then ironically,
once you are abraod, the people in your refuge nation will assume
that you support american foreign policy given your passport...
to the point, where you prefer to run silent.

I'm at periscope depth now, but i ran silent for years once out.
When these chicken littles leave, you'll never know to eat your computer.

America is much much weaker than you say. Having a continent of
WMD'S does not change that. One president won't change it either.
GDP, the only number that the uber-americans use to suggest
superpower status, indicates nothing about the real health of
the country or how fast the remaining world goodwill with america
can be erased.

The situation today was inconceivable in that last election. The
amount of wealth destroyed by the pukes is greater than under any
previous administration ever. Do you actually think that if they
take a second term, that the nation will remain strong or not at
risk of nuclear war?

I'll eat MY computer screen if America is not attacked by massive
nuclear weapons within 20 years. There is no strength in that.