Why is Vodou disparaged in the USA?

[not systems]

With Haiti in the news I was wondering about the negative attitudes about religions of African origin in the USA.

"Bush accused of supporting Haitian rebels"
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040227-055619-8595r

I think back over all the movie images of "zombies" and the endless negativity about any rituals involving blood sacrifice
as I have read exists in Vodou rituals.

This picture from the "I walk with a zombie" from 1943 seems to characterize what I see as a stereotype of vodou that
I believe still exists widely in American popular culture.



I was reading some about the history of our involvement in Haiti which became the first nation founded by slaves in the
Western Hemisphere in 1791 after a successful slave revolt.

I also looked at this interesting image from about collection of Haitian art "Sacred Arts of Haitian Vodou."



It depicts "The Anti-Superstition Campaign" the caption reads:

"The Catholic church, aided by the government and the
bourgeoisie, tried to force Vodouists to reject Vodou.
Vodou temples were sacked. cult objects burned, Vodou
priests and initiates arrested and publicly denounced.
Those leading the campaign thought they could suppress
what seemed in the eyes of the entire world to be
primitivism and savagery."

I was interested to read this history and wondered what people thought of this aspect of Haitian culture and how it relates
to US involvement in the current coup.

What do people think of this description of religious persecution at the hands of another religion?

I thought back to Clinton's intervention in Haiti and remembered this picture:




I guess this is about what people knew about Haiti ten years ago.

What do we know now?

Is Satan in this photo?

[Kool Kitty]

1. Is Satan in this photo?

That's funny-I always thought that man was Billy Graham.

[Stephanie]

2. Thanks!

That's some interesting history that I was completely unaware of.

[kispoko]

3. good post/topic

'voodoo' to me, having learned more about it sometime ago, is just another beautiful extension of spirituality....

i think part of the stigma attached of course arose from the lack of real knowledge about it and some the practices, as tends to happen when people are ignorant of something.... but another part was likely the fact that it was a mechanism of empowerment for africans, and thus, a danger to the status quo....

and all such things have always been disparaged in the u.s., whether it was the ghost dance religion, wicca (or rather its precursor), vodu.... all about control

[I AM SPARTACUS]

4. I spent a year-and-a half in Haiti, alot of exposure to voudoun...

A widely acknowledged smile in Haiti - Haiti is 90% Catholic and 100% voudoun...

There's lotsa stuff on real voudoun on the web and in print. It's not all "serpents & rainbows"...Nonetheless, even upclose, most Westerners do not seem to get voudoun. The ceremonies are...vivid. I'm not referring to the blood...ceremonies are full of a very free-flowing energy.

There are some areas of the country where mambos & bokors seem to promote more malignant forms of ritual. In the area where I lived & worked, it would be very very difficult and expensive (in both monetary and psychic terms) to get a mambo or bokor to conduct a ritual with a malignant overtone - the idea is that once you open the door, you have no real control over the loa (gods).

If anyone wants to discuss, ask away. If anyone wants to see a series of very nice naive-genre paintings I have - a series of eight-or-nine voudoun scenes, painted in way-upcountry - I'll snap a coupla digitals, put 'em on my site, and provide a link. The paintings are really full of info - everything in the painting symbolizes or depicts something in an actual ritual...

Now, it might be helpful to remember that Haitian voudoun is very very different from Cuban Santarea or New Orleans voo-doo. I don't know much of Santarea, but I was born & raised in New Orleans (and now I live in a swamp and carve ooga-boogas...)...

[not systems]

5. Interesting.

I would love to see photos of your paintings.

I watched a documentary film called "Divine Horseman" that was of a ritual.

It was very interesting and looked like a very enjoyable event for the people involved.

The people became controlled by the loa and then preformed as the loa with different characteristic traits.

Are these rituals typically in public spaces or are they private affairs for a certain family?

[I AM SPARTACUS]

8. "Tell My Horse..."

In the possession, a loa "mounts" the person possessed. The loa then speaks and acts thru the "horse". If the loa has a communication for the "horse", who will likely not remember the possession, the loa speaks to a third party saying "tell my horse..."

In the Artibonite Valley, ceremonies mostly take place in private "lakou" (family compounds). There are a few bokor who have set up a separate lakou for their ceremonies (there's a name for such a lakou, but it escapes me right now). Ceremonies tend to be private to the community of worshippers associated with the bokor or mambo host. There are levels of initiates, some participate on the edge, some in the center. I find it interesting how those levels show up in the paintings I have - in primitive perspective, there is an inner-room, and outer room, and always a symbolic bit o' village in the background.

It'll take me at least a few minutes to shoot, create a page, and upload. I hope you have high-speed, 'cause it'll take a bit longer to juke the photos smaller-with-decent-quality...

N'ap vini, p'ti, p'ti...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. I find the practices intriguing

and would love to see the art

[plaguepuppy]

7. The Pharmacratic Inquisition

Jonathon Ott has a lot of interesting things to say about the reasons for organized religion's deep and viscous hostility to religions like voudou. His basic thesis is that religion began as an immediate, ecstatic experience that involved the use of psychoactive plants as sacraments, and that modern organized religions have in effect substituted a placebo sacrament, allowing true spirituality to be replaced with a top-down system of rules and allowing a bureaucratic priesthood to mediate the divine for the unwashed masses.

http://www.mimbres.com/holp/holpath/pi_ott.htm

[I AM SPARTACUS]

10. quick comment before I go attend to the photos...

...at most ceremonies I attended, very few of the participants were using psychoactive plants. There was quite a bit of rum and clarin, but prob'ly less consumed than in a similar-sized bar-room crowd.

[plaguepuppy]

26. Fermented sugar cane is psychoactive too

Actually alcohol is one of the oldest psychoactive preparations. But being syncretic and developing in a somewhat hostile environment it's not surprising the voudou didn't preserve the use of the more overtly mind-altering plant substances.

BTW, about "mooslim": my "slender cow" comment was just a supid pun on "moo-slim" - blame Frank and Ernest.

[I AM SPARTACUS]

40. well, duh! I think you missed the point...

...there's not THAT much alcohol consumed...

As for the overtly mind-altering substances...there are such substances known to Haitians and voudoun practice. However, that is NOT the most typical "gateway" to communing with the loa...

[Astarho]

34. Is Obeah part of Voudoun

or is it something different entirely? I've heard of Obeah for several years, but have never been able to figure that out.

Thanks.

[Nlighten1]

35. I would love to see them.

Pretty please?

[not systems]

36. check post #17 n/t

[Hammie]

9. Could you possibly mean VOODOO?

The fact that it is practiced primarily in the most screwed up country in the western hemisphere probably doesn't help its image much. Even the new brand name "Vodou" isn't going to help people are going to wonder what you're trying to hide.

You can't even sell big name religions like Christianity, or Judaism (sp?) on DU. How expect to sell an off brand like Voodoo? I think its reputation for involving animal sacrifice is going to be a big turn off for a lot of people.

[DrWeird]

11. Yes, you're probably right.

All that stuff in the Bible about when and how to sacrifice animals properly probably turns off a lot of people.

[I AM SPARTACUS]

12. Oooo...or should I say...Oouuuuuuuuuuuuoooooooouuuuuuu

...your fly is open.

Nothing brand-new about different ways to spell the name, different ways to say it. And I don't know too many people trying to sell any of the spellings. It's a bit ironic tho', you're unsure about how to spell "big-name" "Judaism", but you're spot-on about "voodoo"???

[DrWeird]

13. LOL

I wonder how he spells mooslim.

[plaguepuppy]

15. mooslim

It's spelled "s-l-e-n-d-e-r-c-o-w"

[DrWeird]

16. Sorry, not following.

Although it's odd, because I thought of the spelling "mooslim" after recently reading some Lovecraft...

The stars must be aligned or something.

[plaguepuppy]

14. Hoodoo you think you're talkin' to?

"Voudou is the generic term used to refer to almost any of the New World theologies emanating from the Yoruba religion and kingdoms. There are several different spellings: Vodou, Voudoun, Vaudoux, Vaudou, Vodun, Vo-Du, and the clichéed and somewhat racist "voodoo." Davis chose "Voudou" because it is the Creole-based version common to 18th and 19th century Louisiana."

http://www.africana.com/articles/daily/index_20000813.asp

[I AM SPARTACUS]

17. Hoodoo is different from voodoo, voodoo different from voudoun...

Meaning: hoodoo and voodoo are South Lewsiana terms for different things, voudoun being the Haitian religious practice...

Here's three of the paintings...



A "basin" ceremony, essentially of divination and preparation




Honoring the mambo near the openong of a ceremony




Bousou, Three-Horned Loa, Attends Upon His Devotees

Lessee...the white marks all around are veve, symbols for the loa. Most common veve in the paintings is that of Ezuli Danto, patroness of this lakou. While somewhat difficult to see, thru the "windows" in the back are consistent village images. In the bottom painting, Bousou is about to sacrifice a cow (a rare event indeed, given the wealth that a cow represents in Haiti). Note that the cow is to his right, and is draped with a red, white, and blue-striped blanket. I could go on, 'cause everything - everything means something in these paintings...

Note: Voudoun, religion of an oppressed people, is filled with double-entendre...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. Wow! This stuff brings back memories

When I was a kid, we had a nanny from the Domincan Republic and her room was filled with images similar to these..not sure if this was her practice but the images gave me a flashback when I saw them.

Very interesting and some of the symbolism similar to some "pagan" ( for lack of a better word) practices in the south of Mexico..

[I AM SPARTACUS]

19. how about "religious" instead of "pagan"...

not preachin', 'cause it seems like yer a long-standing member of the choir...

I didn't make it over to the DR while I was on the island, and I don't know the practice there. While I've been to some areas of southern Mexico and environs, I don't know much...but I do know that as another culture that was subjugated to a European power, it seems likely that they, too, wove their cultural images into that of the Catholic church...and in pre-Columbian times, there was a great deal of trade around the Caribe...

[not systems]

23. Thanks.

In the book I was looking at the veve are very attractive symbols
when you were in Haiti do you see these in public art or are
the veve only used in ritual and private art?

Would you see veve on store signs or shirts like brand-names,
did people wear jewelry for their favorite loa?

These questions maybe silly but looking at a book of art and
symbols I can't get much context for how they fit into everyday
life.

When you lived in Haiti did Voudoun permeate peoples daily life
or was it more of a undercurrent in what appear to be Catholicism?

The 90% Catholic and 100% Voudoun line makes me wonder if it
is hidden still or in the open?

[I AM SPARTACUS]

41. veve...never on a t-shirt...but then Arisitide's Lavalas party...

Lavalas party used the cock as their symbol - a "brand" is you will. A bit like the Dem donkey, but oh! so much more powerful and evocative. Not a veve, but a strong, strong cultural symbol. Think about it...and no, I don't have the answer to the most-likely question that might arise.

Your questions are not at all silly. They come across as very sincere.

Veves are not just symbols, they are potent messages - a key to open a door, if you will. A true believer would never put them on a t-shirt or brand-name. Very few people would ever draw a veve. Never graffiti, but always a sign.

Believers in voudoun don't have a favorite loa. The loas claim who they want.

Voudoun permeates normal life - you see it as someone crosses a creek while casually, subtly dropping a few grains of tobacco in offering to Met Dlo or Met Ravin (Master of the Waters, Master of the Ravines). You see it at a crossroads, where there may be a plate of food that no hungry person will touch. You hear it from the local minister, you may tell you that it is a fact that the loas are all around us, everywhere, all the time...but he believes fervently in Christianity.

Hidden? Not at all.

[mitchum]

25. And in the South Carolina Lowcountry, it's known as "root working"...

as practiced by root doctors. There it's a bit closer to African Animism (It has far less of the Catholic trappings) I've always assumed the reason being that very few of the SC slave owners were Catholic, and as a result their slaves did not have access to Church statues, icons, etc...

[tkmorris]

20. My Dad used to say

"Tis better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt".

Ok, my Dad never said that, my Dad lived his life putting his foot in his mouth. Nonetheless it is an interesting saying don't ya think?

[Bridget Burke]

21. "Voodoo" is the American spelling

The Haitian practitioners speak Creole French & "Voudon" is probably closer to their usage. Animal sacrifice is not to my taste--but I'm the cowardly sort who buys my animals pre-killed. And the central mystery of the Catholic mass is the transformation of a bit of bread into the actual body & blood of Christ--which is then eaten by the congregation. The reason I'm an ex-Catholic has nothing to do with this doctrine; I can understand the symbolism.

I find this discussion fascinating because I've had a long-standing interest in the syncretic faiths of the new world. Voudon in Haiti, Voodoo in New Orleans. The belief systems of the Spanish-speaking areas--especially Cuba. And the great riches of Brazil. The English-speaking Protestant slave owners were much more efficient in stamping out the African culture of their "property"--although they were not totally successful.

I'd be glad to recommend some books if you're interested in opening your mind. As someone whose knowledge is mostly book-based, I'm happy to learn more.

[I AM SPARTACUS]

22. I suspect hammie'll not be accepting your offer of enlightenment..

...I've run across hammie's posts in other threads...uses terms like "you women's libbers..."...

Since you've done the reading, why not see it firsthand? Just to make things clear - I'm not recruiting. I'd say the same thing to 'bout anyone who's read the background on any subject...

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. It's not Christian

So people will try to tolerate it.

[not systems]

28. What did you think of the painting...

depicting the "The Anti-Superstition Campaign"?

I am surprised that you don't have anything to say on it's interesting subject.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. Old monitor

Can't see it too well. Hard to comment on what you can't see.

[not systems]

30. Ok.

It shows police with priests smashing up items from a
Vodou practitioners house and putting it in a pile.

The caption reads:

"The Catholic church, aided by the government and the
bourgeoisie, tried to force Vodouists to reject Vodou.
Vodou temples were sacked. cult objects burned, Vodou
priests and initiates arrested and publicly denounced.
Those leading the campaign thought they could suppress
what seemed in the eyes of the entire world to be
primitivism and savagery."

[not systems]

31. "people are going to wonder what you're trying to hide"

The book I was reading uses the Vodou spelling.

I have seen 8-10 different spellings but it seems that
"voodoo" refers to the caricature presented and popularized
by the movies and Scooby Doo show.

"How expect to sell an off brand like Voodoo?"

I was not selling anything I was interested in the topic
and thought it relevant given the news of the day.

How do you feel about freedom of religion when it comes to animal sacrifice?

Now that is a interesting question for discussion.

[mitchum]

24. Not by me! I have long used it's more garish aspects...

in both visual and musical art.

[Astarho]

32. Because people don't know much

about it. They think Zombies and Voodoo dolls like we see in the movies. Add to the fact that Voudoun involves calling up spirits and possessions. Also most people don't know Voudoun from Santaria from Ife (sp?) and so forth.

I had some experiances quite a few years ago with a woman who practiced Santaria (it was not directed at me) and I'll tell you it's NOT something you want to fu*k around with.

[historian]

33. Voodoo and macumba

Its voodoo in Haiti and Macumba in Brazil. they are both the result of slavery when they were forced to convert but secretly kept their old gods alive, and merged them with Christianity.
Is it evil? Only if you are an ignorant fundie who wont take the time to research it.

[Az]

37. Clash of the Titans

When one religion collides with another they do not do so gladdly. They are competing for followers. When there is a relative balance between the religions they may seek a truce on the surface. But should the society of one religion be signficantly stronger than the other the sect in the stronger position will demonize the weaker religion.

The rites and rituals of the weaker religion will be associated with the powers of evil. Where they see it as communing with their gods they will be castigated as having dealings with demons. This is simply the means by which religions overwhelm one another. Its evolution. Those that survive, propogate.

[not systems]

38. So our images of Vodou are evolutionary adaptations...

by a Christian society struggling for dominance over
one based on African society. In order to maintain this
dominance the African religion has been "demonized".
This sort of adaptation has provided some advantage so
has survived and propagated over time.

Is this close to your evolutionary view of the
perceptions of Vodou in the USA?

Thanks for your interesting ideas.

[SmileyBoy]

39. I don't practice Santeria. I aint got no crystal ball.

I had a million dollars, but I spent it all. :)

[FDRrocks]

42. If I had a million dollars...

I'd try to clone Bradley Nowell!

[not systems]

43. Now that everyone is thinking about Haiti...

:kick:

[Character Assassin]

44. Your thesis is incorrect.

It is not 'disparaged' in the US. It is misrepresented in Hollywood and in many, many pulpits.

[not systems]

45. 'disparaged'

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=disparaged&r=67

1. To speak of in a slighting or disrespectful way; belittle.
See Synonyms at decry.

2. To reduce in esteem or rank.

'decry'

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=decry.

1. To condemn openly.
2. To depreciate (currency, for example) by official proclamation or by rumor.

Other than being pedantic about words I think I agree with the second part of your post.

What part of my thesis was incorrect?

[Character Assassin]

46. Thanks, I'm aware of the definition

What part of my thesis was incorrect?

In general, it is not disparaged in the US. It is misunderstood, unknown or misrepresented.