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How much long-term damage will GOP opposition to homosexual equality do?

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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 10:30 PM
Original message
How much long-term damage will GOP opposition to homosexual equality do?
It will work in the short-term but at some point, whether it is 10 years from now or 25 years from now this will be a dark cloud hanging over their head and would solidify their position as the party of hate.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Agreed.
The moderate people in the GOP need to rise up and join Jim Jeffords. He was their Moses.

Let the nutbags write in for Roy Moore.
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David Dunham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Ineffective for Bush. Most Americans won't support amendment.
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. most Americans already support the concept 2/3
its not a huge leap to ammendment from there
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. Not the numbers I saw
60% didn;t want same sex marriages, but significantly less than 50 % want an amendment.

It won't make it past 2/3 of the House and Senate, much less 38 states.

It is a hot-button issue to placate the Right (which it probably won;t because of the civil union aspect) in a time of GOP desperation.

Just as they're last civil rights blunder cost them a huge majority of minorities, they will pay for this with the exodus of a lot of gay conservatives and have eliminated all hope of ever getting the vote of a lot of moderates.

This is nothing more than another bill on the high-interest political credit card they have been running up for the past three years. They are starting to feel the effects now, this will merely add in the long run.

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viveledifrence Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. jeffords
yep jim jeffords is the right kind of republican, he voted democrat all the time, thats what they like in vermont, a gop guy who is really a democrat....screw them if they dont like it.....
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. I don't even think this will work in the short term
I think after the hoopla dies down over the next couple of days, people will realize this for what it is...a pathetic ploy by the sorriest excuse for a President we have ever had.
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fearnobush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's working tonight because the media has fallen for it.
They are saying Dems are wafflers because they are against gay marriage but are not really against it because they refuse to support a constitutional amendment. HAY MEDIA, waht ever happened to the real issues? tell them what you think.......... <hardball@msnbc.com >
<letters@washpost.com >
<http://www.cnn.com/feedback >
<viewerservices@msnbc.com >
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viveledifrence Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. gay marriage
cnn is part of the neo con cabal, so is cbs...you cant trust them...kerry is right and has the only understandable stance...he opposes gay marriage so the right wing religious nutball gun toting hillbillies will vote for him but wont support the amendment.....i think that makes sense.......
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asthmaticeog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Whatever.
Edited on Tue Feb-24-04 11:09 PM by asthmaticeog
So what, then, helpful media - ANYTHING one's against, one should support a Constitutional amendment prohibiting? There are LOTS of things I'm not in favor of that I'm also not in favor of banning. I'm personally not 100 percent wild about abortion on demand, but since it's none of my god damn business, I figure it's none of the law's, either.

Let's see, if I could create a constitutional amendment against everything I happen not to like, no American would be able to serve brussels sprouts; listen to Limp Bizkit; become a nature illustrator; be white and wear dreadlocks; spend more than $30 on a pair of non-dress shoes (and $8 on a haircut - if you've ever wondered why I don't post to those periodic "what do you look like" threads in the Lounge, well...); play golf; play video golf; patronize bars on nights where they hand out leis or Mardi Gras beads; use Microsoft anything; consume sushi, bagels or pizza from grocery stores; manufacture, import, sell, puchase,or wear white tube socks; chew gum in public ... shit, I could go on all night. JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE'S NOT IN FAVOR OF SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE TO SUPPORT FUCKING WITH THE CONSTITUTION OVER IT. Damn, I'm so sick of these media-created false binaries!

On edit: take comfort in the fact that I obviously wouldn't legislate against swearing.
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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Nature illustrators?
Nature illustrators? Hunh?
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asthmaticeog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Oh, definitely.
Yes, Nature Illustrators. God, that stuff makes me cringe...

Nothing personal agianst the illustrator I linked to, btw - I hate it ALL.
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5thGenDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. White tube socks??
What the fuck???
John
I'm with you on the swearing part, though. Oh, and the $8 haircuts, too.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. Now you're talking :)
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. How much damage does opposition to equal rights under the law do?

Making equal protection an opt-in choice for states could have some very profitable business applications.

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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
10. I don't think it will work in...
the short term, either.

Maybe i just live in the "wrong" kind of place, but I notice that even normally rabid rightwingers around here are rarely homophobes.

Uncomfortable with homosexuality? Probably, but not actually against homosexuals. It's generally a non-issue. It's a mind-your-own-business sort of thing.

True Anecdote:

It turned out that a really hot waitress in a local hangout was a transsexual and nobody lifted an eyebrow. Not the small business people, or the sales people, or the lawyers. Not the truckers or longshoremen. If anything, most people were even nicer to her. (A couple of guys were kinda hoping she'd hurry up with that last operation.) If anything was said at all, it was more in line with respect that she had the guts to go through with it all.


I suspect that's pretty much the attitude everywhere, except where rabble rousing preachers are stirrin' 'em up. Most people know a homosexual or two, and it's difficult to hate Joe two cubicles down just because he has a boyfriend.

Homosexuality as a campaign issue might just backfire, like racism eventually did. Campaigning on segregation way back when simply pointed out how bad segregation really was. Campaigning on homophobia, even if couched in phony marriage sentiment, will simply remind everyone that Joe down there in that cubicle is really a pretty decent guy.

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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. The Northeast is generally "MYOB" about religion, homosexuality, etc.
but what about the rest of the country?

The legacy of this administration will damage the Republican party's reputation in the history books.
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 03:25 AM
Response to Original message
16. It's going to hurt them
There are some interesting and seemingly conflicting traits in the American personality, but for the most part, we don't like marginalization or messing with people's pursuit of happiness.

Those of us who've been around for awhile can interpolate numbers like 55% are opposed to Gay Marriage and 39% are for it and see that the sweep of a very short time will have Gay Marriage winning out. Sure, there are a lot of people vehemently opposed to it, but there are also quite a few steadfastly for it. The real difference is in the indifference: of the majority of the population, I'll wager that there's more of a "oh, fine, go ahead" contingent than a "nah, I really don't think so" bloc of blockheads.

Like everything, we are defined by our extremists, but life works out in the middle.

This shows them as being prissy, twisted prudes all fueled up with hate, and most of us have a few vices tucked away that we could imagine these straight-laced killjoys coming after next. Thus, the desire for personal freedom wins out over the long haul.

I'm not even sure if it's going to work in the short term; this is not a hot-button issue at the moment. Other than that, you're right on the money.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 03:25 AM
Response to Original message
17. It's just a wedge to get to change the Constitution entirely
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 03:33 AM
Response to Original message
19. I would say that gay marriage
Edited on Wed Feb-25-04 03:35 AM by fujiyama
is really not something the republicans can win this election on.
This gay marriage stuff is really red meat for the fundy base.

This election will be about jobs, an increasingly bloated deficit, and a health care system not serving most people's needs. I think many will be annoyed by Bush's obsession over something which doesn't affect them.

Contrary to the way media portrays this issue (as some incredibly polarising emotional issue), this issue probably ranks around the bottom of voters' concerns. Bush knows he can't run on anything substative, but will instead run on fear -- fear of gays, fear of terra, fear fear fear....
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 04:20 AM
Response to Original message
20. talking points
- it's a diversion tactic by bush* & GOPers - they can't defend their record so they muddy the waters with a "hot button" issue

- activist judges? no more "activist" than the ones bush* snuck through with recess appointments. and no more "activist" than the Supremes that selected bush* in 2000

- GOPers are big on state rights - so why are they pushing this issue to the level of a constitutional amendment that would impose federal legislation on states

- :sigh: another election year with more hot air about family values. If GOPers were concerned about family values then they would be valuing familes by supporting programs which help families - not by cutting these programs

- how many heterosexual couples do you know that divorced or decided NOT to marry because a gay/lesbian couple got married or wants to marry?

- defense of marriage act was sponsored by a man who is on his THIRD marriage and signed by a president that was having an affair...

-----------

meanwhile, anyone know how many Senators/Representatives in congress are divorced, getting divorced, been re-married? How many are having extra-marital affairs?
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punistation Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 04:52 AM
Response to Original message
21. A Republican's thoughts on Gay Marriage:
This mini-rant was posted by a notorious anti-liberal Right-winger I know, who's rants are adored by his peers. Even HE thinks the whole issue is idiotic!


--------------------------------------------------------


So the Massachusetts' Supreme Judicial Court upheld a ruling today that gays should have the right to marry in the state of Massachusetts. This will of course lead to many a heated moments as the beer swilling Catholics in downtown Boston get liquored up and decide to voice their opinions to those who may strike them as light in the loafers, I'm sure. I had actually intended on doing a blurb on this subject about a month ago and it slipped my mind, until I received this email last week...

"I live in Indiana, and in the past week or so i have been hearing a lot of talk on the radio about same sex marragies becoming legal. Just hearing that makes my stomach drop. Could you lift my spirits for me by doing a little old fasion gay bashing? Well not really bash them, that could cause a lot of trouble, just tease them a little. It would put a smile on my face.
Thanks a lot!"

long time viewer-
Mike


Now a few years ago I used to live with a girl who had not only a spectacular pair of breasts, but a gay sister as well. I dunno if the gay sister had great boobs too because, well, she was gay. But anyway, this sister lived in California with her -- of what's the politically correct term -- life partner? Yeah, so these two lesbians have been with each other for a like eleven years and they were as committed to each other as any heterosexual couple I know. But since they obviously can't have any children without some help, they decided one of them gets artificially inseminated. They took a look at their jobs, and decided the one who had the lesser paying job would be the one to carry the baby, since her taking time off from work wouldn't be as financially straining. Nine months later, poof they've got a kid.

The first thing that struck me as a little unfair is only my girlfriend's sister -- the one who actually carried the baby -- could be listed on the birth certificate as the parent. Granted even if they could they'd either have to play paper-scissors-rock to see who gets listed as the father, but still it struck me as a little unfair that only one of them was legally allowed to be recognized as a parent. I mean hey, ya wait around for that long putting up with world class b*tchiness beyond belief, you're gonna want some public recognition, right?

The next quirk they came across was health insurance. As it so happened, the birth mother's health insurance coverage was not as robust as the her partner's insurance. You know how that goes, better job and all that, right? Well the baby's medical coverage could not be claimed against this better policy for obvious reasons -- she wasn't legally the child's parent. So this ended up costing them a lot of money out of pocket for medical expenses, and there were even some areas where the child didn't get the same level of care as she could have if she had been covered under the better insurance policy. Again, it seemed unfair not only to the parents financially, but to the baby in regards to her health care.

And suppose for the sake of argument, that while the three of them were driving home from the hospital, there was a car accident and the birth mom was rendered brain dead. If it were a husband and wife deal, the surviving spouse would have legal control over medical treatment (or ceasing of it) for their injured partner, plus have no problem securing sole custody of the baby. But in this case, the surviving lezbo would have no legal recourse despite having just as much time and energy invested as a male partner would.

All these issues because same sex marriages are currently illegal. Okay. So let me think for a minute, that if they were legal, how would they effect my life. Would I have to pay more taxes? No. Would married gay people get a special check out line at the supermarket to get through line faster than me? No. Do they get their own special lane to avoid traffic jams? No. Do they get cheaper car insurance? No. Free car? No. Free socks? No.

So my question would be... what the f*ck do I care if gay people want to be married?

They're not fighting to have two guys dressed in wedding gowns, mascara and five o'clock shadows to prance down the aisle of your local church. They're not fighting for the right to fuck on the crosstown bus. They're not fighting to have Hers-and-Hers bathrooms at the mall. All the benefits and rights they're fighting for, wouldn't impact my life one bit if they did get them, so why the hell would I oppose it? It's like going out and saying you oppose blue socks. You can't see em anyway, so who the f*ck cares?

The only people that could possibly have a valid argument against anti-same sex marriages are the religious groups. "Homosexuality is an abomination!" they say. Well, okay, that's your take on it that's cool. Fair enough. But then there's two things to consider when you enter that realm, too. One, where the hell were you when priests were treating eight year old children like fuck toys? I didn't hear you say too much then, in fact you kind of looked at your shoes, mumbled something about out of court settlements, and then wandered off into the crowds. I don't hear you protest when atheists get married. I don't hear you protest when atheists get married in a church. I don't hear you protest when religious people get married on a cruise ship snot hanging drunk after grabbing the nearest vacationer to serve as their witness. So please, if you're going to get all high and fucking mighty, at least have the courtesy to do it evenly across the board.

And secondly, this situation my friend, is a perfect example of the REAL reason behind the separation of Church and State. It's not just a springboard for some loudmouthed asshole to use and get his name in the paper when he wants to talk about the Pledge of Allegiance, but instead a genuine reason why Judge Judy needs to leave her Bible/Koran/Torah/Whatever at home.

What if I created a religion where marriage was illegal altogether, would the government have to rule all marriages null and void? What if all the 43,000 people in the United Kingdom who checked their religion as "Jedi" all decided they're never going to get laid and decided they could marry their dog? Would governments then have to recognize those marriages? The answer is no in both cases, because the whole purpose of the separation of Church and State is Uncle Sam can't pick and choose what religious movements they're going to acknowledge and which they aren't. Churchgoers have every right in the world to voice their opinions in a public forum, but when it comes time to making laws it's time to have a nice tall glass of Shut-The-Fuck-Up. The only thing Uncle Sam can do is to make sure everyone, man, woman, black, white, tall, short, cute, ugly, straight or gay, gets a fair shake.

Oh by the way, I gave that girlfriend crabs after a nights indecretion with a drunken girl in the dorms. More on that Tuesday!

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