A question for Christians RE: Mel Gibson's The Passion

[scottcsmith]

I've mentioned before being Jewish but I'll mention it again so no one thinks I'm trying to blaspheme Christian dogma; I'm merely curious.

Gibson's The Passion is supposed to contain horrific scenes of violence during Christ's Crucifixion. I got the idea that Gibson is making it really, really bloody and gory as a dramatic device -- to underscore the enormity of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Which brings me to my question: did Christ have free will in his death? Could he have rejected his divinity and not have been crucified? If his death was God's will from the beginning, and there was no choice at all in the decisions Jesus made, why would Christians, for centuries, be angry with Jews for the death of Christ? Or even be angry with Romans, for that matter? If Christ was meant to die, if his entire reason for being was to die to cleanse the sins of mankind, that would mean his death was pre-ordained and that it really wouldn't matter who killed Jesus. So why would the subject of who killed him even be a subject of conversation? Why would it matter? It seems to me it shouldn't matter. But it has mattered, to lots of people, for hundreds of years.

[MrSandman]

1. Even if there was no free will...

Christ's decisions were affected as much by sinners yet to come(Christians ) as by sinners past/present. We all killed Christ.

[blondeatlast]

16. I agree, and I also believe in some way, He knew his fate,

so he went to his death in some degree of Peace.

It gets compicated, but I believed He lived as a human, but knew (there is evidence to support this in the Bible)He would be resurrected.

[MrSandman]

28. So noone truly killed him.

If there had been no cruxification of his human form, there would be no propriation for sinners.

[mstrsplinter326]

2. Touchy subject

I don't know how individuals define the roles of those who killed Christ, as different churches define God's role in the past, present and future. But I think it's safe to say that this is a subject that will cause hurt feelings if responses come vigorously.
I think it's wrong to hate a group of people in that nature anyway. Jews shouldn't hate Germans, as not every German participated in WWII. Not all Native Americans and Blacks should hate white Americans, etc, etc.

[scarface2004]

3. i ve also had this discussion with someone..

i asked if christ had not been crucified would christianity exist?

the answer was of course not...the crucifixion is the inception of the religion, therefore christians shouldn t have to blame anybody since they depend on the crucifixion for the creation of their religion.

[blondeatlast]

17. I think you are exactly right (I am a Xian). The term "Christian"

occurs only twice in the Bible, as Christ is begininng to gain disciples, rationally enough.

I think it is obvious that I DON'T take the Bible literally.

[emanymton]

4. There Be More Than "A Question" ...

For The Record - I am a follower of the teachings of Christ.

1. did Christ have free will in his death? - No

2. Could he have rejected his divinity and not have been crucified? - No

3. why would Christians, for centuries, be angry with Jews for the death of Christ? Or even be angry with Romans, for that matter? - It gives those in power, a tool to divert the masses's attention from the fact that the masses are being cheated, stolen from and lied to. Much like today where the people in power use scapegoats to divert the masses attention. (ie - the shrub's concerns about marriage as a ruse to destroy equal rights.)

4. So why would the subject of who killed him even be a subject of conversation? Why would it matter? - It doesn't matter except as a tool to keep the people ignorant.


Bush Lied, People Died, Media Cheered.

[hang a left]

20. I was thinking along the same lines when I came upon your post

Religious beliefs are used to divide the people, and serve as distractions. Every once in a while there is a book or a movie to stir up the pot. The Da Vinci Code is one that recently pissed off the Catholic Church. This movie will undoubtedly cause friction between Cristians and Jews. Then there are the political debates of Gay Unions, public displays of the 10 commandments, seperation of church and state, pro vs anti-choice et al. These controversial issues are used as tools to keep people fighting and hating while the establishment destroys our country.

On another note, we were at opening ceremonies for little league baseball in our district yesterday. After the president introduced the board, he invited a christian pastor to say a prayer and ask God to bless our season. He ended the prayer with something like "as a christian man" bla bla bla in Christ's name, amen. I was disturbed by this, because I have become more aware of religious manipulation of the masses this year. I refuse to pray in a public setting with others. When it was over I said to my husband that wasn't very representative of all religions. He said something smart alec back like "figures you would say something like that". IMHO it is wrong.

[emanymton]

21. God Is In The Heart

one need look no further.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

23. amen the Kingdom of God is within the heart

[hang a left]

26. Agreed.

It doesn't matter what is in "their" hearts, it is what is in your heart that matters.

Tell my kids that all the time, including my hubby, who is the biggest kid I got.

[Nikia]

5. He chose to die

He could have hid or ran away but he chose to have a very public last week, not hidden when he knew that he would be betrayed, and did not resist arrest or execution in any way. He knew that it was necessary to fullfill his mission on Earth.
I think that it was naturaul that the Jewish leaders and Roman officials would have wanted to execute someone who was underminding their authority to the common person like Jesus was. I don't think a group of people based on ethnicity or religion should be blamed as "Christ killers".
I always had more theological wonderment with the involved individuals. We have the high priest seeking to fullfill his official prophecy that Jesus would die for the Jewish people. We have Judas, chosen as a disciple and presumingly a close friend of Jesus, betraying his friend as what some would consider the ultimate sin which he would have never been involved in if he weren't chosen as a disciple in the first place. Then we have Pilate who does not know what to make of Jesus and hesitates in the execution and Jesus does not encourage him otherwise. As a Christian, I have actually felt bad of these people, people chosen to fullfill God's plan, but thus condemning themselves.
On the cross, though, Jesus forgives them "Forgive the Father for they know not what they do." It was forgiven then by him. There is no reason that Christians should hold it against anyone.

[Another Bill C.]

6. With 12 years of Catholic schooling,

I can't remember an instance where I was told the Jews were responsible for Christ's death. We were taught that his death was a preordained certainty no matter who took part in His execution.

[pansypoo53219]

7. yeah,

lutheran upbringing. and although i hear luter was quite anti-semetic, i didn't get any of that.
now talk about catholics? that's a tad different, but i think it's just me and not my sect.

[blondeatlast]

18. Not a Catholic, but a regular Sunday Schooler.

That's the interpretation I got.

[fairfaxvadem]

8. Good Questions.

He did have "free will" in the sense that he was God As Man, however, according to his own testimony, he was there in "fulfillment of the Scriptures", as the Creed goes. So in that sense, he had to die.

But, this movie, which is about the last 12 hours of Christ's MORTAL life misses the point completely. Christianity isn't about the crucifixion, it is about the Resurrection and the days he spent preparing his followers to spread the word, the arrival of the Holy Spirit, etc.

If Gibson wanted to celebrate his belief in Jesus Christ as Son of God, he would have made a film of his 3 years preaching or his time on earth after the Resurrection.

Instead we have this, The Passion, which is out of context in terms of the message and the miracle of Easter Sunday.

Shameful.

[arewethereyet]

12. sequel

gotta think ahead.

[xray s]

9. My faith

I believe Christ did have a free will to reject his divinity. He was tempted to do so not only on the cross, but also in the desert by Satan. If he did not have a free will, he would not have fully experienced being human, and the temptations in the desert would have been pointless.

Even though I believe he had a choice, I also believe there was no doubt he would freely choose death, due to the perfect, forgiving and loving nature of God, and my belief that Christ's death redeems us from our free will choice of sin. Christ's death and resurrection is the ultimate, perfect gift.

That being said, I totally believe that it doesn't matter who nailed Christ to the cross, because he died for all of us, so, in a way, we are all culpable. The controversial line in the movie by the Jewish priest about Christ's blood being on his head and the heads of his descendants pertains to all of us, not just Jews. But that same blood redeems us all too. And here I would depart from most Christian dogma, in that I believe there are many ways to come to God through Christ, both as a Christian and a non-Christian. That sounds like a contradiction, but I do not believe Christ came to divide us, but to unite us. It is human sin that tries to divide us, especially the greatest sin, selfish pride. The sin that caused Satan's fall. I will not put limits on God's grace.

Historically, the message of Christ has been horribly perverted by evil people to justify evil deeds. Evil has a way of latching onto good things to further evil. That doesn't nullify the good, but it does challenge those of faith to oppose evil, even when it is in your own house.

The religion of "Christianity", in all its forms, is an imperfect, human attempt to understand Christ's message. For me, it all starts with the Sermon on the Mount. Things like anti-semitism are the antithesis of that Gospel, and should be vigorously opposed by anyone who proclaims to be a follower of Christ.

Hope this helps you understand one Christian's view of things.

[mistertrickster]

10. I'm a Christian and I'm not going to see it. I don't want the Mel Gibson

version of the New Testament any more than I want his version of Hamlet.

Movies imprint their vision into people's minds. I have my own vision from reading the Bible. I don't want that supplanted by a second-rate action Hollywood heart-throb.

Let the masses lap it up. They love McDonald's too.

[xray s]

11. That is a concern for me too

You can't understand Christ by just looking at one part of the Gospel. I am particularly wary of those who focus on the Passion and the Book of Revelation, especially in the form of sensational entertainment.

I think that is dangerous ground.

[arewethereyet]

13. free will-yes blame-noone and everyone

Christ was made man so that this would be a terrible sacrifice. He did not HAVE to go through with it but He loved the world enough and so desired to bring us salvation that He did it anyway. NOt sure ?, He did ask his "dad" if there was another way.

Was it God's will ? No. It was God's gift that there be made a way for Man to be redeemed and that it would be made possible via a Messiah etc. That Messiah did not have to make the sacrifice.

Shoudln't make the mistake of confusing omnipotence with will. Just because God already knoew how it would work out does not mean that there was no risk.

It is NOT really importent WHO killed Christ other than to complete the prophesy. That some see it otherwise is a matter of ignorance of the complete prophesy and why it was what it was. As was posted earlier, it was because of the sin of the world, including that which was yet to come, like me, that was being redeemed and for which we have to repent and ask redemption for.

Remember, Jesus was not a Christian, he was a Jew. That's a question to cause a lot of head scratching if you're of a mind for it.

Hope that helps.

[ArwenJade]

14. My opinion

Alot of "Christians" forget what the whole purpost of Christ's ministry was. He came to show us his love. Not just for Jews or Christians, but for everyone. Jesus came to show us his love by becoming one of us and teaching us how to live. He died to unite us, not to seperate us.

I also agree with what emanymton said.
There is nothing more powerful than hatred of a common enemy. That's why religion and patriotism can be very dangerous.

[Shanty Oilish]

15. He had free will

Mentioned it in Gethsemane: "Yet not my will, but your will..."

It's easy to miss the humanity of Jesus in focus on the divinity. It's a miracle the Gospels have survived the system, but if you check them out you'll find numerous proofs of Jesus' free will. The temptation comes to mind...

His teachings and example are definitive rejection of predestination.

ed: this is opinion, not doctrine :)

[blondeatlast]

19. When discussing the film, it is important to remember that it's FICTION.

The film is based (particularly the depiction of the Crucifixion) on "The Dolorous Passion of Jesus Christ," by Anne Catherine Emmerich, a Geman nun who recounted her "visions" of the life of Christ and the Crucifixion. This is alsoo suspected to be the source of the "Passion Play."

The book is not taken terribly seriously by Biblical scholars, although I am not aware of any determined discreditation, either. In it, THE AUTHOR is pretty harsh about the role the Jews played and their treatment of Christ; the Bible is FAR less harsh and doesn't spend nearly as much time and detail as Sister Anne.

Those who want to hate any group for any reason will always find some supporting evidence. with that awareness, I use my skills as a librarian to try to enlighten them or at least broaden their resource pool.

[arewethereyet]

24. per the filmmaker, its derived form the Gospel accounts

have not seen the movie so I can't say with authority but I question if blondeatlast can either.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

25. he's supposedly added in extra scenes that aren't in the Gospel

if that's true it's not really accurate to the gospel accounts.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

27. no he didn't "add" the ADL lobbied for Mel to REMOVE scenes and won

Mel removed scenes

[megatherium]

29. Mel supposedly cut the critical line

where the crowd demands that Jesus be crucified: "His blood be on us and on our children!" (Matthew 27:25). But I gather the line is still in the movie, but no subtitles are provided for the benefit of viewers who do not know Aramaic.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

22. Prophecy in the book of Isaiah and Zechariah

what God asked Abraham to do God did Himself ...scaraficed His only son Yeshua/Jesus. the alpha and the omega...... what started Judaism a sacrificed son? (which became a lamb) :shrug:

http://www.messianic-literary.com/prophecy2.htm
http://www.messianic-literary.com/zech.htm


Messianic prophecy can often be compared to two mountains separated by a chasm of time; the first being the earthly ministry and atoning sacrifice of the Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) and the second mountain being the return of Yeshua to rescue Israel and establish the Messianic Kingdom on earth. The unbelieving Jew may only be able to see the second mountain or may not see either. Some Christians may see only the first mountain but may refuse to see the second