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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 08:57 AM
Original message
Test your knowledge of the economy: Pass this quiz on to GOP associates
Here's an eye-opening quiz on the economy and how it effects the average worker, dispelling many myths that people have about the state of the lower and middle classes in the U.S.

http://bernie.house.gov/economy/index.asp

I think it would be interesting experiment to have Republican or uninformed friends, family and colleagues take this quiz and see how they score.

Because I spend so much time on DU, I scored 10 out of 10. I know I would not have scored as high without the education that I have received here.

What's your score?
What was the most revealing fact?

BTW, take some time to explore Bernie Sanders' Web site. He's a true champion of the common folk.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. 9 of 10
Edited on Fri Jan-30-04 09:09 AM by Gman
in spite of my background in organized labor and hence my gut instinct that the best way to raise wages is to organize workers, my MBA took over and I said false. Of course the best way to raise wages and benefits levels is to organize.
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GOPisEvil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. 10 outta 10, baby.
But then...I'm a union member. ;-)

I'd be interested to see more results, especially from the conservatives. I'm guessing they'd fail.
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JuniorPlankton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. With all due respect...
Edited on Fri Jan-30-04 09:16 AM by JuniorPlankton
Some of the numbers are suspect:

They are, at best, half-truths
For example, when you talk about union you shouldn't ignore union dues. The real increase from unionization, if any, is much smaller.
When people get paid by the hour it doesn't make sense to compare how many hours they work. You will not be able separate "required" hours from "voluntary" hours. After all, if you compare the levels of consumption, our passion for shopping etc. to other countries...


My result, btw is 8 out of 10 (except two union questions 6 and 10)
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Welcome to DU!
Since you're new, you probably don't realize we actually require people to provide actual facts, data and links to support their assertions.

So, perhaps you could provide proof that union dues eat up any gains created through collective bargaining. Please be sure to factor in benefits. Currently, more contracts are being delayed over health care, not wages.

I'm confused by your point on voluntary vs. required hours, so it would be helpful if you clarified that one.

Also, what does our level of consumption, passion for shopping have anything to do with this survey? :shrug:
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arko Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
67. Well is logic excluded
If the dues are subtracted from the number the number will be smaller logic is all it takes to figure that one out.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. Wow, another one to ignore on this topic!
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. I agree
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 12:27 AM by RationalRose
Well, they tend to come out after dark, SharonAnn, as not to have any confrontation, since the original posters are now fast asleep.
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #67
74. The fact is
that the reason that they are getting the higher wages and better benefits is that they ARE members of the union. Even if you subtract the dues, they are coming out ahead.

Perhaps you think the deal workers are getting a Wal-Mart is better.

Are you against unions?
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arko Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. No I'm not
against unions in general. Although I will admit I have not always felt that way. I had a bad experience with the Teamsters tilted me away from supporting unions for a long time.

I managed construction projects, you know the lowest bidder. Well one day a union contractor won the bid. I was shocked that with the labor rate he was going to be paying that he actually won the bid. That is until his union employees came onto the jobsite. They were to a man dressed and equipped for the job. They were there at the appointed time. They were all qualified for the work they were doing and worked efficiently. My company continued to use this same contractor on projects and we were never dissapointed, the work was completed on schedule and under budget. These union workers were the most skilled and efficient people I've ever worked with. They made me realize that a guy that gets paid $10 per hour and makes nothing but mistakes is a lot more expensive than a man that gets paid $20 per hour and gets stuff done and done right.

I can't say I support every union or every union issue. But there are some I support and respect.

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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #74
87. Those would have to be HUGE union fees
to make the difference (8,000 annually?) negligible. I have heard folks complain about union dues - but never heard that they cost nearly $700 a month...
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
62. wrong
Including union dues, unions workers SILL make significantly more money that non union workers - even MORE if you include the better benefits.

The Republicans - and the DLC - will tell you otherwise, but they are lying.
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. Funny how he never came back
to back up his post. ;-)

You wouldn't happen to have anything handy? The union issues were the ones that tripped up a lot of people here. If not, I'll get back to it later tonight.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
79. Did your employer's "union video" tell you that?
I can speak for myself here...Out of $1,040 a week, my Union dues are $15 weekly, making my pay after your "half truth" clause $1025. Other non-union telecom workers get on average $13 an hour, or $520 a week.

The highest dues I've heard of are the Auto Workers, or the Teamsters, where if I'm not mistaken are around $150 a month. Considering that both, on average, get paid more than I do, I'd say that's pretty reasonable.

By the way...Your welcome for the weekend and the 40 hr week.
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Mixxster Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. 9 out of 10
I got the one about union vs. non-union wage difference wrong. I said $3,400 when it's actually $8,300 more a year.
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Beaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. that's the one that tripped me up too.
nt
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. 10 for 10
Good quiz! I'm passing it on.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
7. 9 out of 10
Missed the one about how much more union workers make.
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. That was a hard one
Any question as to why the corporatists try so hard to break them up?
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Brewman_Jax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
8. 9 of 10
I missed the union wage question. More knowledge makes you smarter. I guess that DU can make you smarter.
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marie123 Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
10. 4 out of 10
and I am a republican.. no surprises here!

:-)
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. No surprises, indeed!
Were you surprised that you were pretty clueless when it came to the plight of U.S. workers and the true state of our economy?

Do you dispute any of the information presented?

Would you like to become more informed or are you more of a "let them eat cake" Republican?
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marie123 Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. hmmm
not sure what a "let them eat cake" republican is and not sure i want to entertain it.

But we can both agree I am a bit out touch with the "plight of U.S.workers". (Employment has always been good to me, of course those days are over.) as it has never been an issue for me.

However, I would like to think I learn something ever day, as I have today.
Thanks for your response
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Basically
the people who say "I've got mine, so screw you."

Care to share something about you current job-related plight? Has it provided you with any revelations or new perspectives?

What brings you to DU and how did you find us?
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marie123 Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. you are correct
that I never noticed jobs going away until it affected me directly. I have been in IT for over 20 years and NEVER had a problem finding a nice paying job.

What brought me over here to DU was the "DUers" themselves, and their information and compassion.

I found this site on 9-12-01 when a DUer posted a message on free republic.com. It was outrageous and I needed to know where it came from. Needless to say the link brought me over to here.

Always made this site a daily stop, so I could read what outrageous stuff you guys were talking about now. It has only been recently that your talk is not so outrageous, but actually factual and damn scary!
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Hmm...
are you conceding that we were right about a lot of things all along.

What are some things that you saw as "outrageous" that are now seen as "truth"?
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marie123 Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. in short
yes, pretty much.

I could never be a liberal, but i wish I had listened more.
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Just curious
How would you define liberal and what are some of the things about liberals makes you sure that you could never be one?
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marie123 Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. how do I define a liberal
Well there are lots of aspects of liberals. They have a great respect for the environment and they desire to preserve it for future generations. They are open minded with a live and let live attitude. They believe part of being in an advanced society, is that it is their duty to see to it that our citizens are not homeless are starving. They have a basic respect for human kind.

What is unfortunate is they think their way is the right way. They have no tolerance when it comes to religion. They despise authority in any shape and can create an atmosphere of confusion and outrage.
They want to control our moneys in the form of taxes


However, most of my work friends are liberal. They don't fear competition rather they encourage it. They don't yell and call you names they explain things to you. Mind you these past few years they do walk by my desk and shake their head, but always with a smile

The best thing about liberals is, when I finally came out and said OMG you were right and I was wrong. They didn't laugh at me, they didn't tell me to tear down my pictures of Bush. They welcomed me and congratulated me for seeing the light.

Don't get me wrong we still have our conflict's, but right now they are right
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catzies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Marie1234, welcome to DU.
I do think there are some contradictions in your post about what you think are the "best" and "worst" things about liberals and perhaps a strong look in the direction of conservatives will lead you to see that what you actually attributed to us about "the right way," "religious intolerance" and "outrage" is more correctly applied to the other side.

And yes, we have "lots of aspects" in our thinking as you have seen. As you so rightly pointed out, we encourage it. :)

I hope you have a very nice day.
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jbm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #39
51. I should have welcomed you on this post...
instead of the one above,but I hadn't read it yet and didn't realize I was going to have a genuine reply. :)

This statement from your post:
<snip>They despise authority in any shape and can create an atmosphere of confusion and outrage.<snip>

has an element of truth in it. I believe there really is a very chaotic element in liberalism and I don't doubt for a second it annoys the hell out of conservatives. I'm from a very conservative background and there are few liberals in this area. The first few times I found myself in a group of liberals I experienced some real culture shock,because there seemed to be so much activity and so little organization,but then I realized that what was really going on was sort of an instinctive brainstorming session. I learned to embrace the experience,hear the ideas,sift through them,and then use the ones I found to be valid as a way to continue to build and enlighten my own personal belief system.

The world does need organization and people who pay careful attention to the details. That is never going to be my strong point,and I don't think it is a strong point in liberalism as a whole. It's our job to create the ideas and then find a way to implement them. In a perfect world,I think it is the job of the conservatives to examine our theories a little closer and sometimes say,"slow down there,kiddo!". Together we make a fine team,but we both have to be doing our jobs. Anyway..once again,welcome to DU! :)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #39
85. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
whatelseisnew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Do you think maybe the talk Has not become Less outrageous?
Rather that you have become aware that the facts themselves have been and continue to be a source of outrage.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
84. welcome
to DU marie123, while I'd have to disagree with some of what you've said about liberals I'm happy to admit I've occasionally made sweeping generalisations about conservatives too.

I also think the tone of some comments posted to you are a bit harsh and/or condescending, how many people actually seek out the other side of a debate - most of us are more than happy to continue to reinforce our own bias' and opinions so I think it's admirable that you've sought out differing viewpoints and are happy to say that you've changed your mind on some things rather than obstinantly holding on to what you've previously believed. If more of us on both sides of politics did that we could inject some honesty back into political debate - we can all be wrong
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DarkPhenyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. "Let Them Eat Cake"
Edited on Fri Jan-30-04 12:23 PM by DarkPhenyx
A reference to Marie Antoinette who is reported to have said "Well, let them eat cake" when she was informed that the pesants didn't even have any bread to eat. Not long afterwards the breadless pesants decided she needed to be about 8" shorter.

I often refer to the "Let Them Eat Cake" factor when having these discussions. Depressingly it is an all too prevalent attitude among the owners and managers in this country. Hell, it's all too prevalent among the poor Republicans.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
68. and the 8" shorter
was a little off the top. Via the guillotine.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
80. I always wondered about "Cake", then I was told about it.
Wanna hear-it? Here it-go!... During the reign of the French Aristocrcay, "cake" refers to the burnt residue from the oven slabs when the bread is removed (sort of like biscuits coming off with the bottom stuck to the pan). In this case, "cake" doesn't mean a sugared flour battered and baked confection. So, what Marie (The Austrian Whore) actually said is even worse than what I thought at first. She should've been de-legged first.

Another bit of Touchdown's usless trivia I thought everybody'd like to know. :D
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kcwayne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Let them eat cake
is a reference to Marie Antoinette, who supposedly said this when questioned about the plight of the French citizens during a critical shortage of food. Marie, along with numerous members of the French aristrocracy were beheaded on the Guillotine when the French Revolution overthrew them.

The remark is construed to be reflective of the disdain for the average person by those who are on top of the social pyramid.
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DarkPhenyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. Oh, sure. I beat you to the answer...
...but you get the thanks. That's justice for you.

:)
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kcwayne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Its always best to have the last word in a debate.
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. So, you say!
:P
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kcwayne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. If you read the thanks posting carefully
you will see that you were being thanked first, and me second.

You are the you in "thanks to you"

So in the final analysis, you were the hero. Don't you feel better now?
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. I was just trying to get in the last word.
:D
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kcwayne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. You did
sort of
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Only if you stop posting
:P
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. Of course the 'cake' will be made off shore by some multinational.
I always heard the cake was actually the flour caked (built up) on the inside of the bakery oven walls.
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jbm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
45. I just wanted to welcome you Marie...
I've been reading your posts. I'm glad you've joined us! :)
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marie123 Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #45
82. thank you
for my welmcome
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DarkPhenyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Which four did you get right?
Just cuz I'm curious.
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marie123 Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. thanks to you an kcwayne
for your replies. I do not remember the four I got right. Give me a sec and I will find out
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
12. 7 out of 10
I divided a million dollars by 365 and came up with 2739.73 dollars per day and I knew the average worker made more than a quarter of that so I said one week. I guess the average CEO makes way more than one million dollars a year. Also missed the union pay difference I said $3400 I also thought for some stupid reason that the Japanese worked longer days. Who'd a thunk it?
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Scottie72 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
91. Here is another simple calculation:
The last time I heard I make just about average if not a little bit above average income. (I am a psydo-hourly worker: which means I must acount for 40 hrs of work between Monday and Sunday to receive my pay (twice a month). Though being hourly I am entitle to overtime and shift diferential...etc. I always work/account for 40hrs a week so my "base" pay never changes unless I get a pay raise.)

I make around 45,000 a year. A work year is 2080 hours. That is 40 hours a week for 52 weeks. My hourly wage is around 45,000/2080 = 21.50 (this is not exact but close enough for discussion sake). Acording to the quiz if a typical CEO earns my salary in about 5 hours his hourly wage is about 9,000 an hour. Now multiply that by 2080 and a typical CEO earns about 18.7 Million dollars a year. Which is an OUTRAGE!
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. I guess I am not typical
I am President and CEO of a small corporation with about three million in gross revenues. I have set my salary at $42,000 a year. I have at least two employees that earn more than myself.
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SPQR Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
16. 10 out of 10
Some I knew, some I just picked the most depressing answer. It worked. :(
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DarkPhenyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
17. Bummer, I got 80%. n/t
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. Which two did you miss?
BTW, we all know how smart DUers are. Don't forget to pass this link along. Everyone loves quizzes and interactive formats. I'm sure they won't be able to resist trying it and who knows, maybe they'll learn something.
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DarkPhenyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Union wages...
...and CEO vs. blue collar worker wages.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #33
88. I missed the ceo question (the only one I missed)
tried calculating out both the one week and five hours. I knew that the average CEO salary had grown exponentially, but did not realize how much. I am guessing that they are including options and other forms of compensation for CEOs that are not available to blue collar workers. But I wasn't surprised that I got it wrong (when I guessed the week) - just more depressed, given that many of the companies paying these salaries do so whether or not the company does well ... *sigh*

I keep wondering when they will start outsourcing CEOs. There are some European and Japan companies that are more than competitive - bet their leaders would work for US companies at lower compensation than the US ceos are making...
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
22. Got 9 out of 10 correct.... (n/t)
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
23. 10 out'a 10
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kcwayne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
24. 10 out of 10, it was easy
all you had to do was pick the most outrageous disparity or the most unintuitive to the American myth and that was the answer.

I did have to do a doubletake on the CEO compensation. For what they are making a company could fill the Super Bowl with Indian CEO's.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
28. 10 out of 10-that was too easy
I love Bernie!
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
31. wow.... I got 10 out of 10!
Now I know I spend too much time here! THanks for the link prolesunited..I sent it on to a friend! :)
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
40. Like taking candy from a baby - 10 out of 10
The only one I even thought about much was the union pay.

What's funny is when you hit yuppy repubs with these questions,
and they start ranting, "Here you go again with that class warfare
bullcrap".
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
41. 10 of 10, quite simple really.
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
42. 10/10!
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MacCovern Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
43. First Question is very misleading!
Edited on Fri Jan-30-04 05:04 PM by MacCovern
#1 The average wages of American workers have increased since 1973, keeping pace with productivity and profits.

Looking at data, it sure looks like average wages have gone way, way
up since 1973. Just look at the link below which has census data:

http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/h11.html

In 1973, using 2001 dollars, the average "mean" household income was $41,955, and by the year 2001 the average income had increased to $58,208, for a 38%+ increase!!!!! Oh, but there's more: in 1973 the average household size was 2.97 people, and by 2001 that had dropped to 2.58 people per household. Even though the average number of people
per household is down, income is way up!!!!!!!!!!!

Now let's look at households with only one person. For those households the mean income in 1973 (2001 dollars) was $19,961, but by 2001 it had jumped to $31,724. What a drastic increase when you realize all of these dollars are adjusted for inflation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a big problem with other things on Bernie Sanders website. Why doesn't he indicate sources for the data that he uses???? I used a source my data in this post, but it's too much to ask of Bernie to do the same. Bernie is more of a Socialist and not a Democrat, and I will be glad to argue other questions in his ridiculous quiz.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. I take it you scored under fifty percent.
:shrug: whatever
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. Would you indicate what other problems you have with his Web site?
What other questions did you think were ridiculous or answers were untrue?

This might interest you:
In 1992 the 400 individuals and families with the highest income in the U.S., according to tax returns filed with the irs, received on average $12.3 million in "salaries and wages."

By 2000, the latest year available, that figure had more than doubled, to $29 million.

More significant, in 1992 it took the combined wages of 287,400 retail clerks at, say, Wal-Mart, to equal the pay of the top 400. By 2000 it required the combined pay of 504,600 retail clerks to match the pay of the top 400.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101040202/bintro.html


Did you realize he was author of a bill that would repeal portions of the Patriot Act? How is that being a Socialist?
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MacCovern Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. Other Problems with Bernie's Site
On Bernie Sanders site, in the "Wage Gap" section he indicates:

"Between 1973 and 1997, the average annual incomes of the poorest 20% of families actually fell by 5% ($701)..."

As usual for his site, there is no source of reference. When I look at the historical data at census.gov I find a different story.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/f03.html

The poorest 20%, indicated as the "Lowest Fifth" in the census data I'm referencing had income of $12,949 in 1973, and in 1997 the income was $13,261. (All dollars are 2001 dollars). From 1997-2001 the average income of the poorest 20% increased every year, but Bernie doesn't mention anything past the 1997 figure for some reason.

Bernie indicates that 20% of children in the USA live in poverty, but the latest stats prove him wrong again. Census figures indicate 16.7% of children live in poverty (see link below of PDF file). Maybe Bernie just hasn't updated his site in a few years.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p60-222.pdf

Please don't get me wrong, I don't think Bernie Sanders is evil because he is a Socialist, and it's great that he tried to fight the Patriot Act! He should just be much more careful in the data he uses as he tries to get it to fight his Socialist agenda.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. Apples and oranges, read the question again
The question number 1 is:

"The average wages of American workers have increased since 1973, keeping pace with productivity and profits."

Your statement is:

"In 1973, using 2001 dollars, the average "mean" household income was $41,955, and by the year 2001 the average income had increased to $58,208, for a 38%+ increase!!!!! Oh, but there's more: in 1973 the average household size was 2.97 people, and by 2001 that had dropped to 2.58 people per household. Even though the average number of people
per household is down, income is way up!!!!!!!!!!! "

Your statement is average mean income not the question of what is the average wage.

So how can they be different? How about the HOURS people work. Below are statistical quotes from the same site that give an idea how those mean family incomes are up.

"The productivity (output per hour of labor) of American workers has increased more than 30% since 1973. If workers received their fair share of that productivity increase, real wages would have increased by almost one-third. But instead, wages have been falling while corporate profits have been rising."

"If workers' wages had kept pace with productivity increases between 1973 and 1998, the average wage in 1998 would have been $18.10 an hour. That's $5.33 an hour higher than wages actually were in 1998, which adds up to a loss of $11,000 a year for a full-time worker."

"American workers' real (inflation adjusted) incomes have fallen since 1973. The average hourly earnings of production and non-supervisory workers in the U.S. fell by almost 10% between 1973 and 1998 (from $14.09 in 1973 to $12.77 in 1998)"

"In recent years, everyone in the family has had to work harder to make ends meet. It is increasingly uncommon to see a middle-class family that does not have two breadwinners. The average middle-income family is working almost two months longer every year compared to 20 years ago. Whether they want to stay home with the children or not, many parents are now forced to work because their families need two incomes to pay the bills."

"The number of Americans working more than one job at a time increased 92% between 1973 and 1997. Americans who hold more than one job work an average of 48 hours a week, and about 40% of them work 50-69 hours a week."

Lastly, why do you suppose in most households there are TWO breadwinners. Do you suppose the government CPI may be low, thus understating the real effect of inflation? Or do you think americans are just living that much higher on the hog and they need to have both work just to support their extravigant lifestyle?
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MacCovern Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. both: twisted CPI and excessive commercialism
Why are there two breadwinners? It's a little of both, but mostly it's
the "extragant lifestyle". Did you know one third of American families now have 3 or more cars??????? I remember when I was a kid growing up in the late 1960's/early 70's, and I lived in a very nice neighborhood, no one had a three car garage. Now three car garages are extremely common.
It takes more than one breadwinner to keep three vehicles up and running so you can "keep up with the Joneses".
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Please supply the source on 1/3 families have 3 cars
But also, if it requires 2 breadwinners, then would be safe to say it requires at least 2 cars per family? I wouldn't call 2 cars extravagant.

I also can remember raising a family beginning in 67 and being the sole breadwinner. I didn't get a second car until 79. Believe you me it was hard until about mid-70's until I landed a job that paid enough and had good benefits.

What is really galling though, is to work 37 years and not see any benefits of the improvement in productivity. You know that little measurement that says I produce 30% more widgets per hour now but get paid 10% less. Where is that extra money going I wonder, maybe to pay the CEO and build plants in China, Mexico, Brazil and about every place that pays the workers $2 per day.

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MacCovern Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Source for car/vehicle info......
is Gregg Easterbrook's book, "The Progress Paradox: How Life Gets Better While People Feel Worse"
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. OK, I'll take your word for it
I have never read the book. So I guess I will have to trust the source. 1/3 of the houses has 3 car garages does sound high to me. But do not live in a new neighborhood. Maybe the new homes going in all have 3 car garages.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. So what was your score?
Or do you have a problem with ALL the questions because they shake the core of your belief system?
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MacCovern Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #69
75. A score is just a number....
LOL

Actually, I didn't even submit my answers, but I knew the answers that Bernie was looking for anyway. Overall, I have no problem with most
of the questions on the quiz. Bernie is very big on unions, and they
still serve a purpose, but let's face it America is better educated
today than it was 50 years ago and most people with college degrees
do not join unions. There are exceptions, but you know that they never
will. In the service sector, I wish there was a larger union presence.
I was in Las Vegas 3 months ago, and the culinary union is very strong among hotel workers there - not just restaurant employees, and it's important that the union remain strong there. On the opposite end of the spectrum is the union organizing the grocery strikes in California.
Do they honestly think the employees shouldn't contribute to their own medical insurance? Do they think the grocery store chains are going to cave in to their demands? Of course not, they can find replacement workers to do that work with no problem. It doesn't take a genius to stock shelves or toss a can into a grocery bag. I bet even B*ush could do that work if he was trained properly!
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #43
72. The proper measure is used, it's "constant dollars" where
adjustments are made for inflation. It's how all correct multi-year financial analyses are made.
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MacCovern Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #72
76. I used constant dollars!
Sharon,

If you read my post again, you'll see that the data I was referencing used constant dollars. The info from census.gov used 2001 dollars going back over 35 years.
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priller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
78. He's talking about the wages of "workers"
by that I assume he's not talking about the upper classes. And I agree the question could be phrased better.

But while the average household income has gone up, if you track it by income levels, almost all of that increase has gone to the very top, the vast middle has stayed about the same, the poor's average income has actually decreased slightly.

Check out "Wealth and Democracy" by Kevin Phillips. He shows very clearly that from the end of WW2 up to the early 70's, there was a fairly equitable rise in income at all levels. After that nearly all the increase went to the top.
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Honesthumanbeing Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
49. 10/10
This quiz was easy--just pick the answer that appeals to liberal intuitions.
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petrock2004 Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. must be why i liked it
i've got lots of those :evilgrin:
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guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
54. 10/10

I paused a little on the CEO pay question,but then consideded that the last time I looked,CEO's were making in excess of 500 times the pay of line workers.CEO compensation is a lot more than their published salaries. They get stock options,no-interest loans,free country club memberships,etc. etc. etc................
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
56. 10/10 here too
All of these are known facts.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
57. 10 - 10 n/t
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JPace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
60. 10 out of 10.....but
I don't feel good, knowing the sad truth
about our country is depressing!

The sheep keep being told how lucky they
are to live in America.....and they just
accept that.

Bah!
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #60
70. Well, we know how smart
you 10 out of 10 scorers are, but what about your family and friends?
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
63. Rats, I missed one.
:( I misunderestimated the average pay of CEOs. They asked for that of "major" U.S. Corporations. I neglected the word "major".
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
81. Kick
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. That was certainly nice of you
Let me know if I can return the favor sometime! :hi:

Sometime this week, a friend and I are going to do a thread on unions, their achievements and misconceptions. That seemed to be an area that tripped up a lot of people.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
86. 10/10
Some lucky guesses in there.

I hate it that the gap is widening. And the fact about Bill Gates making as much as 45% combined is really depressing. And now he wants people to have to pay for each email.

AAAAEEEERRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
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YNGW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
89. 10/10
But I answered the way I knew he wanted it to be answered, which his answers are not necessarily and most likely not the truth.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #89
92. If you can prove that these answers AREN'T the truth
by all means, enlighten us.
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Scottie72 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
90. Perfect!
Awsome quiz. Short and right to the point questions. This is what we need to preach, and what we need to fix!
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
94. Can't bring up the link; server seems to be down.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
95. 9 out of 10
missed the % of workers that belong to unions.

Otherwise.. I know everything!
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