Hey, British DUers! A few questions...

[Stephanie]

1. Why is Tony Blair leaning on that old wooden box with the rope handles?

2. What are all those old books on the table, and what is the story with that big table, anyway? Do they ever dust that place? Looks a little musty.

3. Tony Blair is lying his ass off, right? Watching this I don't believe him at all. He ducks his head on the last word of every declaration, as if to negate it.

4. What is the reaction over there? The BBC reporters seem chastened, chagrined, but also defiant! They seem to be just barely containing their outrage. What are people saying over there?

[K8-EEE]

1. Yo Steff...

Check out Greg Palast's new column at his website...he's an American (not only American but from my home town YEOW!) who lives & publishes out of the UK cuz, FOR SOME REASON he doesn't get as much play on his Expose Chimpy pieces here.

His new one (I subscribe) talks about the mood of the British press. They are bummed out to no end but feeling defiant he says, this might lead to their finest hour.

[Stephanie]

2. Thanks, I didn't think of that

I love Palast:

http://www.gregpalast.com/

[Stephanie]

4. Excerpt

This is the conclustion:

And now the second invasion of the Iraq war proceeds: the conquest of the British Broadcasting Corporation. Until now, this quasi-governmental outlet has refused to play Izvestia to any prime minister, Labour or Tory.

As of today, the independence of the most independent major network on this planet is under attack. Blair's government is "cleared" and now arrogantly sport their kill, the head of Gavyn Davies, BBC's chief, who resigned today.

"The bleak future for British journalism" portends darkness for journalists everywhere - the threat to the last great open platform for hard investigative reporting. And frankly, it's a worrisome
day for me. I'm not a disinterested by-stander. My most important investigations, all but banned from US airwaves, were developed and broadcast by BBC Newsnight, reporter Watts' program.

Will an iron curtain descend on the news? Before dawn today, I was reading Churchill's words to the French command in the hours before as the Panzers breached the defenses of Paris. Churchill
told those preparing to surrender, "Whatever you may do, we shall fight on forever and ever and ever." This may yet be British journalism's Finest Hour.
###

[legin]

3. To 4

my parents who I would not have said were particularily left wing were not that impressed.

I'll find out more reaction when I actually get around to leaving the house Friday and again Monday - A busy week for me ;-)

[Stephanie]

5. Not impressed by the report?

Didn't think it was any big deal? Or didn't think it was the last word? Or didn't believe its veracity?

[legin]

6. They realise the Hutton report is a total whitewash

and my mum is also a little annoyed by the university fees vote too, the fact that a few MPs changed sides at the last moment to ensure a government win. Sacrificing what they believe in, just to prop up the government in power, were sort of her sentiments.

They were more annoyed than I was over the two things, I must be geting jaded or totally used to it. ;-)

[Stephanie]

7. A whitewash.

Hmmm.Interesting - and they are normally not inclined to be so skeptical?

Has there been any polling?

[legin]

11. Mmmm...

My dad just read the morning newspaper.

Quite animated about it.

What he is saying is that if Hutton had done a slightly more critical report it would have been better for the government, Hoon could have been sacrificed, and the whole thing could have been put to bed easier.

Also showing the first signs of conspiracy theory syndrome by suggesting the Hutton was told to write a report that whitewashed the government so Hutton delibratatly over did the whitewash to make the report look silly.

[sweetheart]

12. That's all a bit cynical

Hutton had very narrow terms of reference for the inquiry. It was regarding Dr. Kelly ONLY. It was not about WMD's, iraq, or anyone else. The MOD did a shameful job of protecting one of their own, and likely the internal ramifications within the MOD will be quite intense.

Dr. Kelly was sacrificed, and the question was whether this was with the foreknowledge or by the instructions of Mr. Blair.. no. It then suggested a deriliction of duty by the BBC board of governors to edit Mr. Andrew Gillian(sp?)'s report... hence the BBC resignation.

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Politics/documents/2004/01/28/huttonreport.pdf

Here is the hutton report. Better to read the facts as written.

[Vladimir]

15. Its so much worse than a Whitewash...

I mean, if this was a whitewash - a bit of blame falling on all sides - it would be shit but things would move on. But it ain't. Its the most unbelievable and grotesque deconstruction of the truth I have ever witnessed. I spent all of Wednesday listening to the Hutton report being delivered, and by the end, I was numb with disbelief. Hutton has not only whitewashed the government, he has also laid the foundations for the destruction and privatisation of the BBC. The Chairman and Director General have already resigned... and with the charter review coming up in 2006 expect the BBC to tread very softly indeed for the next two years. Hutton has effectively silenced the only semi-objective reporting outlet here in the UK for the forseeable future. Aargh, man I have no words to describe my anger and frustration right now. To put things somewhat into context, I was predicting prior to Tuesday:

- Govt. to win top-up fees by 10-20 votes
- Hutton to be a whitewash, laying some blame everywhere but leaving Tony blair in the clear and causing a few resignations in the BBC and MOD.

Bear in mind that I am a born pessimist. Many people were predicting the end of Blair. And even though all the evidence is publicly available on Hutton's website (and exercise that shows the public will eat shit even if you tell them it is shit and that it will make them ill before they bite), no-one in Britain has yet had the balls to call this as it is other than Boris Johnston, and he's a Tory for gawds sake! Disguisting, completely disguisting.

V

[sweetheart]

8. Learning about parliament

Probably better to poke around and learn yourself, as there is a lot more to it than some funny props. The dispatch box is in the house of commons, where tony blair is the leader of the party on the "right" = in government. Which is why he is called "Right Honourable Mr. Blair." All those other things and more on:

http://www.parliament.uk/

People are saying that there is a defecit of public trust in Mr. Blair, and that this, no matter the results of any official inquiries, is the lasting result of the iraq war and the lies that lead up to it. The vast majority of the official government, as in the US, is pro-war... no getting around that fact. The attacks on blair are 2 fold. By the parliamentary opposition party, the attacks are to defeat him in the next election, and they will lie and spit like snakes, as they themselves are like the neocon filth, and have no respect for truth or democracy... (see bill clinton's presidency). The other aspect of the attacks on blair are from his own party, those who feel he lied and has sold them out.

These folks are mostly the british folks you see on this website, as the other lot would not want to be associated with american liberals. These folks know he lied to get britain in to war. More than that, by supporting bush in his world conquest, Blair has taken the appeasement road of a former infamous prime minister, neville chamberlain, "apeasement". (This chap was a bit too freindly with hitler before ww2, and actually trusted that he was on the up and up.) The result has been global strength for bush and global weakening of the very interests that tony blair is in his job to support, "Labour", the common bloke who drives a taxi, cleans your house and the lady at the bakery. Labour is the same as the american democrats (not the DLC).

In the pub, the REAL labour supporters, whom by and large are working class and don't go for internets and such, these folks like tony blair. Some of them still like margaret thatcher (read: reagan democrats). Don't read too much in to the murdoch media frienzy against blair. He has a firm grip on power, even in his weakened state. People have a different distance to power in britain. Americans believe anyone can be president, whereas, british people generally do not believe that anyone could become prime minister... that person is "above" them by birth, and indeed, the way class systems work, sorta is. People trust that he is true to his station, and that a public inquiry in to his behaviour, exhonerating him, allows him to clear his name of kelly suspect behaviour. This leaves the left fringe, whom he has really sold out, foaming mad due to the tuition fee victory, and the opposition mad that he got through and made them eat their words. Also consider that the Hutton inquiry was narrow in focus to Dr. Kelly, and was not designed to determine whether the iraq war was started due to lies.

Likely you'll see evidence of this anger against blair in other posts here. Blair has done the same thing that clinton has. If you did not have a problem with clinton launching an overnight illegal war against Sudan and Afganistan, or bombing kosovo, likely you are like most of british labour. The same democratic folks in america who were put off by clinton, are those same folks in britain put off by blair. Don't read too much in to it. The crisis is over. Business as usual will continue, and the nebulous third way will triumph. Ain't it fun to see a victory of vapourous rhetoric over substance?... well, clinton was great, wasn't he... same same...

[iverglas]

20. heh

tony blair is the leader of the party on the "right" = in government.
Which is why he is called "Right Honourable Mr. Blair."

Joke ... er, right? (Btw, the "right" that Tony is on, in the non-political sense, is the right of the Speaker -- on the left on camera, same as in the Canadian House of Commons, where MPs actually get desks and don't sit all jammed together like sardines.)

"Honourable" and "Right Honourable" (meaning "very" honourable, and lower than "Most Honourable" and "Most Noble") are long-standing British titles, originally associated with nobility I believe.

http://www.debretts.co.uk/peerage_and_baronetage/peers.html

An Earl is styled Right Honourable, and is formally addressed by the Sovereign as Our right trusty and entirely beloved cousin (and counsellor when of the Privy Council). <ditto for Viscounts>

In case anybody wonders, here's a guide to the Canadian protocol re titles:
http://www.graa.gov.sk.ca/protocol/html/Prot_practice/fms_address/ad_crown.htm

Present and former Governors General and Prime Ministers, and the Chief Justice, are "Right Honourable", as is the British PM there. Present and former Cabinet ministers and Senators, and judges of superior courts, are "Honourable".

Anyhow, you think the box is amusing, you oughta see the Woolsack. On a visit to the House of Lords, I had to be reminded of what that one was all about.

http://www.parliament.uk/works/locomp.cfm

The Woolsack is a seat stuffed with wool on which the Lord Chancellor sits. It was introduced by King Edward III (1327-77) and originally stuffed with English wool as a reminder of England's traditional source of wealth - the wool trade - and as a sign of prosperity.

Today the Woolsack is stuffed with wool from each of the countries of the Commonwealth, to symbolise unity.

I was curious about the box too. (Cdn PMs, Ministers and MPs all speak from their own seats/desks.) In a search, I encountered the info that the reason for Cdn Ministers of Finance wearing new shoes when they bring down their budgets, whereas the Brit Chancellor of the Exchequer carries "an old despatch box", is unknown. (Leslie Nielson's brother Erik wore mukluks, them being from the Yukon and all. Oops, no, that was John Crosbie from Newfoundland.)

Anyhow, now knowing that it is the "despatch box", I find:

http://www.britain.tv/ukpolitics_glossary_d.shtml

Despatch Box
There are two Despatch Boxes in each House situated on either side of the Table which separates the Government from the Opposition on the Floor of the House.

Ministers and Shadow Ministers stand at the Despatch Boxes when they speak in the Chamber, and often lean on the box and thump it for emphasis during their speeches.

The Despatch Boxes in the House of Commons were presented to the Commons by New Zealand after the post-war rebuilding of the Chamber. Despite their name, the Despatch Boxes are not used to contain documents or despatches but hold Bibles instead.

Just in case someone felt the urge to swear, I suppose. ;)


My tale about working-class Labour support, from that visit 10 years ago. We were in old East Ham, east-end London, where my grandfather was born, now part of Newham (and which our racist hotel concièrge had warned us against visiting). An employee in the municipal offices told us how her father was a Cdn soldier in WWII she had never been able to locate. I asked her for her thoughts about the local council elections that had just been held, in which Labour had done very well. She started out by saying there'd been an improvement in the Newham council: "Last time all the councillors but one were Labour." Oh no, I thought; here it comes. ... "This time, they all are."

But even there, at least in the Socialist Alliance's analysis --

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/1727/sw172721.htm

(in the Custom House and Silvertown council by-election in east London last week) Labour won the seat with 578 votes, beating the Tories, who got 329 votes. Labour controls all the seats on Newham council. The turnout in the election was one of the lowest ever at just 10.54 percent - reflecting lack of enthusiasm for New Labour.

.

[Stephanie]

22. Thanks, very informative

Still, those boxes look pretty shabby. I would have thought they were much older.

[sweetheart]

24. Right of the speaker

Interesting your explanation. I was told at parliamentary visitors that "right" had to do with seating relative to the speaker, and that it signified "in government", as otherwise, the opposition would have the same title if it was merely a title of elevation?

I guess in an odd way, it has come to mean both, as nobody there is a duke, and sitting on the right of the speaker means in-government.

I have to ask black rod. ;)

I was fascinated to discover the origin of the term lobbying in the parliamentary lobby where the interests mingle with MP's. Like most tours, parliament tourism spends less time on protocols than on than the history of the building, fires, rebuilding and such.

Do you think there is some significance to the different seat colours in the commons and the lords? Does canada copy the colours as well?

My neighbor, has a woolsack on his metal tractor seat. It is quite comfortable. I guess sitting on a sheep makes you wise. :D

[jonoboy]

9. Tony's just another Tory yes ?( Palaist is great !)

[legin]

10. the cartoonist Matt from the Telegraph

he is not usually so hot on politics, he's great on wry pokes at proachical british life, but this a good one.

[T_i_B]

13. Ah, Parliament

Westminster is the mother of parliaments, and as such a lotof the decor is a bit on the vintage side, but I like the whole look of it. I just wish Tony Blair would stop sticking his hand up the mother of parliaments skirt!

And as to the public's reaction, I have come across quite a few people who consider the Hutton report to be be a whitewash. The Press seems to be siding with Blair though.

[Avonrepus]

14. I think someone has dodged a bullet

I don't know whether the Hutton enquiry went into the question of whether Blair had anything to do with the naming of Kelly, but on Richard and Judy yesterday, Peter Hain (Welsh secretary/Leader of the House) would not say once and for all that he didn't, you would have thought that he would given that the report had just been released.

Then again we have such A terrible culture of secrecy in this country that I'm sure we'll never find out the real truth. I mean it was only 2 years ago that the files over the army's reaction to Bloody Sunday were declassified and that was in 1972 for God sakes and look at the attempts to destroy the civil servant who released the info on the sinking of the Belgrano.

[T_i_B]

16. The Hutton report cleared Blair of that

The Hutton report cleared Blair of any involvement with the naming of Kelly, but it didn't address a massive slice of other issues with IMHO were relevent. Hence a lot of people are calling whitewash.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3439405.stm

Lord Hutton said the validity of the Government's claim that Iraq had WMD ready for use was outside his remit.

And he said doubts about Andrew Gilligan's evidence made it impossible to determine the truth about his interviews with Dr Kelly.

The report also refused to comment on the Foreign Affairs select committee's grilling of Dr David Kelly.

His report went on to say: "The question whether intelligence approved and provided to the Government by the JIC was reliable is a very important question." However, he said, it was "an issue which does not come within my terms of reference and on which I express no opinion".

[Stephanie]

17. What finally happened to Gilligan?

Will there be another investigation into the WMD claims? Or is this one meant to end all the questions?

How is the grilling of Kelly outside of the scope of the investigation? I would think it would be key to it.

[Avonrepus]

18. Here's Steve Bell's view

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/0,7371,1134032,00.html

He's a pretty left wing cartoonist for The Guardian.

[Stephanie]

19. Thanks! I love Steve Bell!

However, I don't get this one. Can you explain it? Who is that in the chair, and in the box?

And Welcome to DU, Avonrepus! Nice to have you here.

[Zero Gravitas]

21. Blair in the Chair

and Hutton on the table. Dunno who the otehr two are, maybe from the BBC?

[rjbcar27]

25. The two in the dock are

Andrew Gilligan (the journalist who started all this) and Gavyn Davies (the ex-chairman of the board of the BBC.)

[T_i_B]

23. The Lib Dems are calling for a WMD enquiry

But the Blairites seem to think that Hutton is going to end all the questions.

However, "new" labour still has a case to answer about whether or not we were lied into an unessessary war.