The true cost of same sex unions

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http://www.marketplace.org/shows/2004/01/28_mpp.html

When you go to the above link you will find a list of stories. One of them is:

The hurdles same-sex couples face when trying marry
Last week, Ohio banned same-sex marriage, evidence that gay unions remain a sensitive issue this election year. Regardless, same-sex couples around the country are struggling to gain the benefits of a marriage license, but they are doing it at the attorney's office. The law regards a same-sex couple as two strangers, but for a fee, a lot of that can be overcome. Problem is, no amount of legal paperwork can override the federal tax code or Social Security rules.
Reporter: Jim Rosenberg

It is an interesting story which details with precision the economic cost of getting the benefits which a couple can approximate. Documents permitting basic medical care rights $1500. Adopting your partner's child $11,000. That doesn't count the lack of access to pensions and survivors benefits.

You will need real audio to listen.

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1. kick

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4. kick

[liberalhistorian]

2. Someone I worked with said, just

a few days ago, that the ban on gay marriages our state (Ohio) had just passed was no big deal because unmarried hetero couples had to do the same thing as far as spending money for the things this article talks about. Bullshit, I told her, because hetero couples have the option of getting married, whereas gay couples have no such option. THAT shut her up for awhile and made her think, at least!

What I want to know, as a member of the American Association of Single People (www.unmarriedamerica.com) is why such benefits are tied to marriage anyway, when a lot of them are what EVERYONE needs (health insurance, tax, legal, social security, and financial benefits, etc.).

You can marry someone you've only known for a day and suddenly get access to all of their benefits (health insurance, etc.), and they yours, but if you've known and been with someone for a long time, yet you're either gay or you choose not to marry, for whatever reason, you're screwed unless you've got money.

Just another example, if you're single, and you die, your social security benefits automatically go to the government, and not to your children or any other family member you may want to designate, even though YOU have worked for those benefits. But if you're married, they automatically go to your spouse no matter how short a time you may be married. And that's just plain bullshit.

So basically singles like me are screwed, and why should such benefits be tied solely to marriage. That's BULLSHIT!

[SoCalDem]

6. Employers are not "family-friendly"..Single people work well for them

straight OR gay.. Single people do not (usually) call in sick when they are, because if they are the only wage earner, they need the money (and more and more companies have pretty shitty paid sick-day policies)... they also usually do not have a sick baby at home...

Benefits packages cost less for single people.. They often do not "need" the life insurance (no one to leave it to),, they usually do not need maternity /parental leave, adoption benefits..

They are more likely to work late..come in early...skip lunch..


In other words.. The gay community has traditionally been a large part of the "single" community, and companies have "known" this all along.. They happily look the other way about the "gayness" because the save so much money on these workers..

When the gay workers decided that they too wanted equal "rights *& opportunities" as their married/straight co-workers, that's when the shit hit the fan.. Now all of a sudden, the gayness is the big deal..

**silly bit to follow*

Gay people should form allianes, just like on Survivor.. The business community likes to tell you that "it's just a piece of paper"...well here's my idea..

2 gay guys, and 2 gay women.. marry each other...buy a duplex..work out your own living arrangements.. :)

[liberalhistorian]

8. Did you see the recent episode

of Lifetime's series Strong Medicine, where one of the doctors had a brother who underwent a sex change operation and whose partner was very ill but the doc's "sister" couldn't put her on her health insurance because her employment didn't have same-sex domestic partner benefits, so the doctor married the ill woman, put her on his insurance so her illness and treatment would be covered, and they then divorced a couple of months later with part of the "settlement" being she got to remain on his insurance? I'm sure that THAT was a real eye opener for a lot of people.

[SoCalDem]

10. A friend of mine did something similar..years ago..

He's a well to do older guy, and a younger woman he knew who had two sick kids, needed a place to stay..He rented her a small house he owned, and after he heard about her struggles, he married her.. They have never "really been married" or lived under the same roof, but they are still married.. After her kids were grown, they were going to divorce, but then SHE had some health problems, so they just stayed married.. He has an insurance policy with her as the beneficiary, and the house she has lived in will be left to her, but everything else is earmarked for his kids from his first marriage..

[PVnRT]

3. That is ridiculous

Bigotry at its finest, pure and simple.

[David Zephyr]

5. kick.

Thanks! :hi:

[arwalden]

7. My Partner And I Have Tried To "Approximate" Marriage

with dozens of legal contracts and other notarized documents. Whenever our travels take us more than 3 hours away from home we ALWAYS make certain to take copies of the documents with us in case they are needed.

-- Allen

NURSE: "I'm sorry Ma'am... you can't go back there."
GIRLFRIEND: "But that's my husband... I'm his 'wife'."
NURSE: "Oh, okay. Go ahead."

NURSE: "I'm sorry Sir... you're not allowed back there, either."
ME: "But that's my partner."
NURSE: "Family only, sorry."
ME: "But he IS my family."
NURSE: "Married couples and blood relatives only."
ME: "But I have a medical power-of-attorney and I'm legally permitted to make my partner's medical decisions on his behalf if he is unable to do so, or if he so directs. I must be permitted access to both my partner and to his doctors and to the same information that would normally be provided to him."
NURSE: "Do you have those documents with you? Please wait here while I page a lawyer to review them."

[Touchdown]

9. The biggest hurdle is having to live with the same person...

...for EVER! :wow:

We should be careful what we wish for. Should gays be as miserable as everyone else?;-)

[liberalhistorian]

12. Believe it or not, there ARE

some good or great marriages, and not all married people are miserable, some are quite happy. And many gay couples have been together for years, even decades, so it's not as if they're unprepared or don't know each other well.

[Touchdown]

16. Okay now, Joke alert.

Try and stay with me heh'? I know...I guess my joke wasn't very funny.

[MadHound]

11. Once again, as with other issues regarding our society, follow the money

I think that part of the reason gay marriage isn't getting a big push is because having to put the GLBT community through all of these hurdles brings in big cash to the legal community. And since for the most part lawyers are but politicians in larval form, there are immense pressures brought to bear to retain the status quo.

I mean, look at it this way, a marriage certificate is what, fifty bucks at most. The cost of putting together paperwork that even comes close to aproximating the benefits of a married couple(power of attorney, health benefits etc.) is at least $3000 dollars. With a GLBT community of aprox 30,000,000 people that adds up to 22.5 billion in the pockets of the legal/paralegal industry just to have a same sex couple aproximate the benefits of a married couple. And if you start getting into children or other more complicated matters, KA-CHING, the cash registers go whirling around again. Why would the legal industry wish to throw this kind of cash out the window? I'm not saying there is some legal conspiracy to maintain the status quo, but there is certainly no monetary incentive for things to change.

Add to this the monetary benefits accrued by the government when so called "single" people die. Social Security benefits roll back into the government pool, along with probate fees, court costs, taxes etc. Add all of this up and it equals plenty of cold, hard cash reasons for the interested parties to maintain the status quo. It also remains as a prominent club and rallying cry to whip up the conservative(and not so conservative) base in this country. How much money pours into various political/religious coffers in order to combat the "Gay Menace"? Quite a bit I would imagine.

I am convinced that if gay marriage could become as profitable to certain people tommorrow as the status quo is today, we would have gay marriage on the day after. But that is unlikely to happen, hence we have to fight an uphill battle against large checkbooks and small minds.

[liberalhistorian]

13. I must respectfully, but strongly,

disagree with you. I'm a paralegal who's sick and tired of hearing lawyers being bashed, because frankly, most of them don't deserve it. The ones who do are the only ones you really hear about. There are many, many lawyers who are working for justice on this very issue, many who donate their time and expertise to assist both gay couples and unmarried hetero couples with these issues at no charge (my boss included, and he barely makes enough to pay me and the overhead, and almost nothing for himself, and that's the case with a lot of lawyers, believe it or not). The opposition is mostly CULTURAL AND RELIGIOUS.

And you want to talk about people profitting off of the status quo and thus not wanting it changed, let's discuss health care, where doctors and hospitals now mostly care about money, refuse to treat the uninsured or demand cash upfront that they don't have, and are now considered among the most ruthless and aggressive debt collectors in the country, and that's been well-documented. They're even using "body attachments" now, whereby if a person is uninsured and doesn't have the full amount to pay a medical debt (and we're talking about things like viral meningitis, pneumonia, miscarriages, heart attacks, etc., and NOT cosmetic surgery or the like) they can, and are being, thrown in jail. Many lawyers routinely get stiffed on fees they've legitimately earned, and they don't go after people like that, and they aren't the ruthless, aggressive, selfish, money-grubbing bastards that the majority of hospitals and doctors have become.

[MadHound]

15. *Sigh*

Excuse me, but what part of "I'm not saying there is some legal conspiracy to maintain the status quo, but there is certainly no monetary incentive for things to change." did you not understand? All I am doing is simply pointing out the fact that big bucks plays a large role in keeping this issue alive. If the government could figure out how to make more money off of gay marriage, trust me, religious and cultural objections aside, we would have gay marriage.

And while I sympathize and admire people like you and your boss, and also recognize the societal need for them and lawyers in general, it still doesn't change the fact that the legal profession is a high dollar profession(average lawyers' salary, 81,000). And with the help of politicians(the vast majority of which are former lawyers) and legal PACS the legal profession has made incredible headway in making the law so incredibly byzantian that you need a lawyer in order perform the simplest of functions. It reminds me of engineers when you get them drunk and talking without reservation. Ask a public works engineer why your local traffic hazard remains a traffic hazard, even though it has been reworked several times, and like as not he will tell that its to create jobs for future engineers. I think the same ethic applies to several different proffessions, including lawyers. If this offends you, oh well, perhaps you need to fraternize with your fellow legal colleagues a bit more, for I've had many lawyers and paralegals tell me the same thing I'm telling you.

I would suggest you face the facts. For every noble lawyer out there who is selflessly advancing the cause of justice in our society, there are ten more who are hacks and whores, simply out for as much money as they can get. If you don't understand this, and understand WHY the public is so hacked at the legal profession, then I'm afraid your thin skin is going to be pierced time and again.

[noonwitch]

14. I personally think that gay marriages will boost some areas of the economy

Marriage consultants, banquet halls, caterers, among others, will all be raking in more money if they are also planning gay weddings. My church will get behind it-we already do civil ceremonies. The UCC, UU, Episcipol and Unity churches will also benefit.