If the unthinkable happens, what will you do?

[Gringo]

Namely, Dumbya actually wins the presidency for the first time in '04, and is able to weasel out of accountability for 9-11 & Iraq due to another "terrorist attack", and the GOP steamroller continues to roll unabated with the help of the Whorewellian media, what will you, in all honesty, do?

This question's probably been done before, but I haven't seen a poll for it.

On edit: someone expressed concern over option 3. I made it more vague. If the mods still think it's a problem, they may decide to delete this thread. For the record, I am not advocating ANYTHING here, just learning...

[hang a left]

1. I have a 16 year old

son, who I will not allow to be forced into the armed services. I have a nine year old boy, but I have time for him. If I even think they are close to bringing back the draft, I'm bailing

[atreides1]

25. I have

3 grandsons, and I will do anything that I can to prevent them from
getting sucked up into this crap. Granted they are still very young,
but even Hitler created the Hitler Youth.

I will stay and fight, so that they won't have too.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

53. liberalnproud that was my first calculation....

my childrens ages ...gmta :7
and likewise, i will send them to family in canada before rummy or wolfowitz could bat an eye

[MercutioATC]

2. Costa Rica is looking really good in 12 years..

...that's how long I'm stuck until I retire. In the meanwhile, I'll do everything I can to make sure this country realizes exactly how it should be conducting itself..

[Gringo]

3. I love it when the freeps vote like that!

Keeps 'em from skewing the poll as much!

Keep on prayin' for Dubya! Ha Ha!

[Jack Rabbit]

4. I am a veteran of the US army

TITLE EDIT

I once took an oath to defend America from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

And so I shall.

[Gringo]

5. Pretty cool sentiment.

I wish I was so brave. I have to admit I put the safety of the wife and kids even above country. Call me a coward, and you're probably right. I will try to stick it out til the last possible minute, though.

[atreides1]

13. I too am a US Army Veteran

And I took the same oath, and I will stand with you.

[mitchum]

20. Not a veteran, but will still stand with you guys

a man with no hope is a man with no fear

[Merlin]

18. Count me in.

n/t

[wellstone_democrat]

48. Yep, I don't recall them taking back that oath

I swore it, meant it, and assume that I am still under obligation to uphold it. And, I shall.

On Edit: This is MY stand. I have *no* problem with those who make other choices for themselves or their families. And, if the worst happens and those of us who stay are successful in bringing back the old republic, I'll stand on the dock and welcome you home.

[KeepItReal]

6. I've survived worse than these F-ckups. Ain't changin a thing

I could just stop watchin TV and live in ignorant bliss...

D.U. is that sh*t so you know I could never sell out like that!

I'm prepared for the worst-case of Bush & Co for 4 more years. So anything else/better is just gravy, baby.

"We ain't goin nowhere...."
- P. Diddy

[Rowdyboy]

7. If Reagan couldn't run me off...

*43 doesn't stand a chance...

[are_we_united_yet]

8. Viva dans France!

You know what I mean

[gardenista]

19. You talk pretty one day n/t

.

[are_we_united_yet]

51. ok we're even

[meisje]

9. So you plan on abandoning this great country during the bad times

and let me guess… you'll want to come back during the good?? How about you do those of us who plan on sticking it out a big favor, don't come back!!!

[Vulcan59]

11. Have to agree with some of this.

I know I sure wouldn't abandon this country. I have faith in our military and if i'm called to serve I will. Infact I plan to enlist after college. I don't really agree with a lot of Bush's reasons for going to war with Iraq, but I do agree with fighting terrorism and defending this great nation.

edit: I think the war on Iraq will be over by then anyway.

[atreides1]

15. And How

Do you plan to defend us, pray tell. Will you violate the Geneva Convention, will you take women and children as hostages, will you
fire on civilians, attack media personnel. Bacuase that is what is going on now. If this is what your idea of defending the nation is all about, then you do agree with the Bush agenda, and will become another willing pawn in his attempt to be king of the world.

If you support Bush and his adminisration then in my opinion you bring dishonor to the Constitution. So when it comes time to take the oath just move your lips, because that's all it'll be worth.

[Vulcan59]

27. RE:

"will you take women and children as hostages, will you
fire on civilians, attack media personnel"

No I will not. I would like to see a source for "take women and children as hostages". I've only seen Iraq fighters do that. As for civilians, the military tries to keep collateral damage down, and grunts are instructed to not intentionally fire on non-threatning civilians. Now of course there are lots of exceptions. I'm not hear to back up Bush in a lot of his policy, but I agree with his fighting terrorism. Such as in Afganistan. I think if a Democrat would have been elected then he would have engaged Afganistan to root out terrorists responsible for 9/11. I think we can agree on that. I think it's cowardly to run away from America. If you don't believe in the war by all means use your rights and protest, but don't flee!

[Gringo]

28. Man, you don't get it do you?

I'm not talking about fleeing service in some war. I'm 35, it would have to be bad to draft me.

I'm talking about the FACT that if Dumbya wins, democracy in this country is OVER. There will be no stopping the fascist police state, and dissenters will be rounded up and shot. I'm not exaggerating or being colorful - that is the logical end I see this thing going to if this bastard gets his way.

Serve in a war to defend America from invasion or attack? Hell yes I would. Serve in a phony murderous war like Vietnam or Iraq? No way. Conscientious objector, but that's assuming America is still America. It's already halfway gone. Dumbya wins, and it's OVER.

[IndianaGreen]

29. Most Americans don't have a clue about totalitarian regimes

They think that if they are wronged they can get a lawyer to get them out of a jam. We can see now how thousands of people were detained, disappeared from view, without charges ever been filed or without getting legal counsel. Imagine the same scenario, except that now it is US that are rounded up because we lack enthusiasm for our new Fuehrer.

Albert Einstein would have died in a concentration camp had he stayed in Germany. He was smart!

[Vulcan59]

32. This is America.

I think ya'll are just paranoid. It won't reach the extremes ya'll are talking about. Of course there is always the possibility and I will keep an eye out, but I really think ya'll are blowing it out of perportion. My 2 cents. IF and a big IF it comes to the outrages perportions you mention I will rebell. I don't think Bush winning another election will throw this great nation into the measures your talking about. He will serve his time and another president will be elected IMHO.

[Gringo]

34. How charmingly naive.

Due process has already been all but destroyed. The American people have made little objection so far to police-state tactics, spying on our own people without warrants, summary executions of so-called enemy combatants, and the nullification of about half of the bill of rights. I realize that you are very young, college age, and you probably don't remember times when corporations didn't control everything, so you probably dont' see it as threatening. I do. In my life, I have seen such a sea change that I don't even recognize this country.

Amorality, rudeness, selfishness and cynicism have become "cool" while at the same time, religious fanatics have gone overboard with their doomsday beliefs and hatred for the unsaved.

Are you not aware that before the Nazis, Germany was the the most democratic country in Europe, with Bohemians and artists flocking to Berlin? Or the way Hitler brought himself to power, staging acts of terrorism to cause panic and take over. He also made up very soothing excuses for each new country he conquered. Do you think he said to the German people "Hi, I'm Hitler, I'm evil and I'm going to take over the world, and exterminate the Jews." It was all packaged to sound very pretty and just, so long as you didn't think about it too much.

We are somewhat different from Nazi Germany, but as people, we are fundamentally the same. We are just as vulnerable to lies/propaganda and groupthink as the Germans were. They're very vigilant about such things today, but we most certainly are not.

[IndianaGreen]

35. Do you think America is inherently better because Gawd said so?

That smacks of racism, or the cult of Americanism as George Monbiot described it. There is nothing special about America, or Americans!

People are people! America does not have a "special dispensation" from the Almighty to make the world right. Americans are not wiser than people in other nations. Americans are not a new master race!

There is nothing special about America, or Americans!

[Vulcan59]

42. Disagree.

There is nothing racist about having pride in my country.

I never said:

"People are people! America does not have a "special dispensation" from the Almighty to make the world right. Americans are not wiser than people in other nations. Americans are not a new master race!"

Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

"There is nothing special about America, or Americans!"

I think there is, that's why I choose to live here.

[tomp]

45. that's not really thinking.

it's nationalism. your naivete or your brainwashing is showing.

[goobergunch]

65. This poster has been tombstoned

[Gringo]

37. Time and more research may change your mind.

BTW, it's "proportion", "outrageous proportions", "rebel" (only one l) Sorry, I get persnickety about these things.

Also what's with all the "y'all's"?

[Vulcan59]

41. ya'lls

I'm Texan. Habbit <:)>.

About the spelling, it seems I can't effectivly spell check untill after the 'submit' button is pushed, lol.

Oh, about time and research. I'll be the first to say I don't know everything, contrary to most of my generation <;)>. I see your point of view and value your experience, but these are my opinions as of now.

[Ein]

62. I think that as well.

We could last through another bush term. If shit shakes up real bad in 2008, we gotta fuck some shit up. If we get a centrist democrat in office in 2004, and get a WORSE THAN BUSH president in 2012, WE REALLY GOTTA FUCK SOME SHIT UP!

But we can outlast bush jr.

[Hanuman]

68. I don't know who's more far-out

You or W.

Rounded up and shot?

I can see the PATRIOT act snaring some possibly innocent folks in it's perverted dragnet, but your T2 hallucinations are kinda sad and absurd.

That said- let's all fight to unelect chimps legally- and take a wait and see approach post '04. Personally, I don't see an apocalypse coming- just more of the same...

[tom_paine]

70. Got a link for you, Vulcan...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54345-2003Jul27.html

Scroll down to read this gem:

Col. David Hogg, commander of the 2nd Brigade of the 4th Infantry Division, said tougher methods are being used to gather the intelligence. On Wednesday night, he said, his troops picked up the wife and daughter of an Iraqi lieutenant general. They left a note: "If you want your family released, turn yourself in." Such tactics are justified, he said, because, "It's an intelligence operation with detainees, and these people have info." They would have been released in due course, he added later.

The tactic worked. On Friday, Hogg said, the lieutenant general appeared at the front gate of the U.S. base and surrendered.

==============================================

(sometimes, at this early stage of Empire, the truth squeezes out...don't expect to see it on CNN and certainly not FAUX REichspropaganda)

So, the answer, Vulcan, is yes. Yes you will do those things if you are told. How you could join the Imperial Amermacht knowing that

a) You are no longer defending the Old American Republic, you are defending the Empire and the selfish interests of the Imperial Family

b) Knowing that as the Imperial Family grows more confident and lawless (God Help Us during the reigns of Emperor Jeb and Emperor George P. Caligula) you Amermacht Soldiers will be called on to do more and more horrific things, including (at least by the end of the reign of George P. Caligula and perhaps much sooner) attack and help round up your fellow citizens.

By the by, I'm a USAF Vet.

But I signed up to protect and defend the Constitution. And though you'll mouth the words when you take your oath, like the rest of the lies in Bushevik Occupied Imperial Amerika, it won't be worth the breath you spent saying it.

You will protect and defend Imperial Family interests, like those poor bastards in Iraq.

[Gringo]

16. The threat from within

from scum like Bush and our own deluded, tv-addled people is far greater than anything Al Qaeda could muster. If you go fight in Iraq, you are defending nothing. I'll salute you for your futile obedience to an evil ruler, but it has nothing to do with terrorism.

[Atlant]

46. What grade are you in now?

> Infact I plan to enlist after college. ... I think the war on Iraq
> will be over by then anyway.

What grade are you in now?

Atlant

[are_we_united_yet]

63. sigh

[hang a left]

12. who are you to tell anyone to

not come back eh?

[Gringo]

21. No, it's a valid sentiment.

Anyone who attacks me for not fighting for this country to the death is well within their rights. I certainly understand the sentiment, and would feel a great deal of guilt if I had to do so, but I would do so.

[atreides1]

24. I have to agree

it's a valid sentiment. If you're not willing to fight for something,
for a belief, for the right to be free, then you're no better then
Ahmed Chalabi.

Look him up, he's been mentioned on this site several times.

[Gringo]

26. Ouch.

But I am a dyed in the wool atheist. I don't believe there's any heaven awaiting me with angels to commend me on my bravery, and I don't believe that I will be able to look down upon the fruits of my labors. I will simply not exist, and who knows what will happen to my kids.

If I take them with me back to Japan, where they were born, they'll hopefully be safe, and that's everything to me.

(With my luck, Kim Jong Il would decide to attack Japan)

[Gringo]

14. I suppose you'd say that to the Jews who escaped Nazi Germany, too?

The preservation of one's life and that of his family comes first. If this country willingly elects Bush in spite of all he's done, it is no longer America, and I want no part of it. So yeah, I won't be back.

[atreides1]

23. But Suppose...

the Jews had fought back like they did at the Warsaw Ghetto, and at
Sobibor. What if they had started resisting before that, we'll never know will we.

The Israelis, who I am not a big fan of, have an oath that they take as part of their swearing in ceremony, "That Masada Shall Never Fall
Again". This is in reference to the Jewish resistance of Rome at the
mountain fortress of Masada.

And how can the country willingly elect Bush, when the voting boxes
that will be used by the states can be compromised.

[Pastiche423]

22. That was a very ugly comment

If I weren't a crip, I'd be gone in a flash. Instead, I will stay and probably die.

[are_we_united_yet]

64. what are you talking about?

you'd be leaving because if you didn't you'd be fighting for BushCo. You'd be promoting the T word.

[JCMach1]

10. We are leaving in less than 20 days

:bounce:

I will still vote here though-- if they bother to count it this time...

[IndianaGreen]

17. Canada

National Anthem Of Canada

O Canada

O Canada! Our home and native land!

True patriot love in all thy sons command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,

The True North strong and free!

From far and wide,

O Canada! We stand on guard for thee.

God keep our land glorious and free!

O Canada! we stand on guard for thee

(repeat)

http://www.copcity.com/anthems/canada.html

[Zhade]

30. The Question.

I've asked it myself. And I think we all know which one I mean:

Where is the line?

Some would say we've crossed it. Certainly looking more like that every day.

Big turning points, though, would be --

1) loss of voting rights (DieBold, anyone?)

2) lack of elections at all - instant violence would follow this (riots, etc)

3) another "ignored" 9/11 and/or another War of Lies

Once that line, whatever I define it is for myself, is crossed, there's really no choice, is there?

Underground.

[imwatchingem]

31. Stay and fight

Some of my ancestors arrived in Plymouth and some meet them when they got off the ship. No one will frighten me out, my roots are too deep and I'm too stubborn.

[Forkboy]

33. First priority

get my family the hell out of here if at all possible.Then I'll see what I can do myself to stop the shits in their tracks.

[Exultant Democracy]

36. I'm a human first, american is a far distand second place.

As a human I will fight against evil, but I will not call a country that has turned to evil my home.

[quinnox]

38. Look forward to 2008

And hope that either Hillary or Gore runs!

[Man_in_the_Moon]

39. Disappointed

I voted 'Other', but really a combination of 2,3,4 is more accurate.

I would:

#2 as long as it was feasible

#3 when appropiate

#4 when it became necessary

And I am more than little disappointed that so many fellow DUers would flee and leave the rest of us to suffer in the hands of tyranny.

[TreasonousBastard]

40. Yeah, well...

it would be nice to come up with some grand statement of how I will bail, or fight on, or whatever. Leaving has some attraction, but fighting on for a cause does, too.

The simple truth is that I have no idea what I would do if that pantload gets reelected. Or steals the election again, more'n likely.

I've done a fair amount of travelling, and there are parts of Canada, Italy, France or Scotland that I could move to in a minute if I had the opportunity, no matter who's in office or what the situation here is. Parts of Romania and the Czech Republic have certain charms, too.

I was born here, got drafted to kill Vietnamese who never did me any harm, and invested most of my life here. But I'm one of those people who's just not all that big on flag waving and country. I figure home is where I hang my hat, and I've hung my hat in quite a few places. Where that hat might go next has very little to do with Washington, and a lot to do with my other circumstances at the time.

I can't conceive of anything that would lead me to harm this country. I could not possibly be recruited as a spy or saboteur, and wouldn't be at all interested in armed revolt. But, truthfully, I can't think of any other country that I would want to harm, either. I can think of moving out, though. It means about as much to me as moving from New York to New Jersey did. And I didn't make that move because I hated the Governor.

[AlienGirl]

43. Depends how unthinkable

I have friends I rely on to know when it's time to go. I have two different routes of finding safety, one in the US that will allow me to continue on in the Resistance, and one to somewhere out of reach.

As soon as my well-versed friends say run, I'm running on one or another route, you can bet on it.

Tucker

[iangb]

44. An 'elaborated other'....

....way down here I'll be taking the only sensible option.......and digging my foxhole REALLY, REALLY deep.

[Nikia]

47. I will fight

I believe that it is the right thing to do and what I am meant to do. I suppose that it depends on how bad things get as far as my methods. I know that people have never regained or won any rights except through resistance. Sometimes, I feel hesitate to take a stand and let others take a stand or let an issue drop. The end of democracy is not an issue that I will let drop and I will take a stand when others are afraid to take a stand. I would like to live to old age and live somewhat of a normal life, but if I would die fighting for the return to democracy in America, then my life would have meaning.

[Monte Carlo]

49. No way that I'm leaving this big happy F'n mess.

I was born in America, I've lived in America, and it is going to take a lot more than some know-nothing chief executive to make me leave. We've been through worse and survived.

[DavidNY]

52. I agree with Monte Carlo-- the USA survived 12 years of Reagan/GHWBush...

and we'll survive 8 years of GWBush if we have to, though I desperately hope it doesn't come to that. Things will only get worse if those of us who love America and see W for what he really is abandon our country; we need to stay and help take our country back. (That last wording was not meant as a plug for Howard Dean, by the way, though he did coin a nice phrase-- I think John Kerry would do a better job as President and has a better chance of winning the fight to start with, though I'm not a Dean-hater or anything and would put him 3rd or 4th if I had to rank the currently announced Democratic candidates.)

[Gringo]

55. I daresay that...

the 8 years of Clinton-Gore did nothing to turn around the destruction of the Reagan/Bush years. They merely slowed it down for a while.

There would be no Dumbya without Raygun and Rush having paved the way.

[never cry wolf]

50. i have a 17 year old son

and my family has a cabin on an island in canada. he will be safe, i will do what need to be done to make the place right for him to return.

he is quite political, btw, and is the chicago area kerry high school coordinator. therefore i am sure his name will come up if the draft is reinstated.

[zonmoy]

71. but

what on earth makes people think that if they leave the country they will be safe from the right wing nuts.

[bluestateguy]

54. To you people who would leave America: YOU ARE LOSERS!!!

That's just what the Freepers want! One more non-Republican vote leaving the country.

[Gringo]

57. I will stay as long as my vote means anything.

There is an enormous possibility that post 2004 elections will be about as real as Saddam's last re-election.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ulysses]

56. I'm staying.

This is my home.

[EAMcClure]

59. Prison, here I come!

If Bush gets re-elected, prison will be better than life on the outside. So I will do my best to disobey the illegal occupation. Scout's honor.

Eric

[Woodstock]

60. I was tempted to run away

but I THINK I might be able to suffer through 4 more years, although it will be the toughest thing I've ever done.

[knight_of_the_star]

61. Depends on the situation

If there is no one that would be waiting back at home for me (wife, girlfriend, family, etc) I would be busy surfing around at the neo-anarchists cookbook if you get my meaning, but if I have any of the above I'm getting them to safety and going with them. Maybe the presence of an American who has been there to serve as a diplomat for us could help, sort of like what Ben Franklin did during the Revolution.

ON EDIT: On second thought, if things get that bad I will leave anyway just to serve as the messenger, the diplomat for the rebels fighting back home. We knew during the Revolution that we could not win without outside aid, the South knew that during the Civil War, we are going to need people to go abroad, especially to the NATO nations, to convince foreign governments to jump in and aid us in our fight against the facist government in the US.

[goobergunch]

66. I'd stay and keep working on political strategy...

for 2006 and 2008.

UNLESS the draft was reinstituted. Then I'd leave the country.

[stoner_guy]

67. Canada

I'm thinking that the fishing is good in Canada. Maybe I'll emigrate

[Feanorcurufinwe]

69. these are not exclusive choices.

these are not exclusive choices.

[SideshowScott]

72. They want us to leave..Staying and fighting is a nightmare to the right..

I hear all the time from the Rightys how the Libs and Left should leave and how they wish they wish we were gone all together..Shades of hitler totaly..But I think that staying and fighting is a nightmare to the right..They WANT easy wins beacuse they know that its a sham and they are scared crapless that one day people will wake up to that fact..With us out of the way it will be a cakewalk for the right to take advantage of america even more..
I WONT leave
I will stay and fight for what i belive beacuse I am an american
But i will say it will be a big kick in the groin if Bush wins next year.