Blumenthal in Salon: "The war is lost." Military experts say they see no

[milkyway]

exit from the Iraq debacle -- and that the war is helping al-Qaida.

<snip>

"This is far graver than Vietnam," said Gen. Odom. "There wasn't as much at stake strategically, though in both cases we mindlessly went ahead with a war that was not constructive for U.S. aims. But now we're in a region far more volatile and we're in much worse shape with our allies."

<snip>
Gen. Hoare believes from the information he has received that "a decision has been made" to attack Fallujah "after the first Tuesday in November. That's the cynical part of it -- after the election. The signs are all there." He compares any such planned attack with late Syrian dictator Hafez al-Assad's razing of the rebel city of Hama. "You could flatten it," said Hoare. "U.S. military forces would prevail, casualties would be high, there would be inconclusive results with respect to the bad guys, their leadership would escape, and civilians would be caught in the middle. I hate that phrase 'collateral damage.' And they talked about dancing in the street, a beacon for democracy."


Gen. Odom remarked that the tension between the Bush administration and senior military officers over Iraq is worse than any he has ever seen with any previous U.S. government, including during Vietnam. "I've never seen it so bad between the Office of the Secretary of Defense and the military. There's a significant majority believing this is a disaster. The two parties whose interests have been advanced have been the Iranians and al-Qaida. Bin Laden could argue with some cogency that our going into Iraq was the equivalent of the Germans in Stalingrad. They defeated themselves by pouring more in there. Tragic."

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2004/09/16/iraq_war/index.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. They are finally speaking out what many of us

have heard over the last year or so... And yes Rummy is shall we say... despised in the ranks

[wtmusic]

2. The Germans in Stalingrad -- first time I've heard that one

and an apt comparison it is.

I feel a chill in the air...

[TankLV]

8. Now where are all those who denigrate us who find ample valid comparisons

to bunkerboy and Hitler?

The similarities are mounting daily.

[RebelYell]

3. MISSION FAILED n/t

[Erika]

4. 1,022 of our troops dead as of 9/14/04

for Bush's war against the Iraqis.

[speedoo]

5. This is getting very scary.

We need a lot of generals who are not in the chain of command to come forward to support these allegations. Maybe that will stop the attack on Fallujah.

Otherwise a lot of people, including probably hundreds of US soldiers, are going to die needlessly.

I just hope Kerry is seriously looking at the pullout option. I'm coming to believe that is the only viable option.

[amandabeech]

11. Yes, and their story need to be carried on the local news and

the front page of local newspapers. Those are the two sources from which most citizens and probably a large number of voters get their news. Even network evening news/CNN/Fox would help.

Very few people read Salon, the NYT and WP (such as they are), let alone Newsweek, Time or U.S. News. No one reads the Guardian, the Independent or the various alternative blogs and websites.

These former military people need to get on Imus, and yes, Stearn. Maybe even that idiot Rush.

I hate to say it, but in Salon, they're just preaching to the converted.

[milkyway]

13. I agree--we need to pull out now. At first I agreed with many Dems that

once bush invaded and messed up Iraq, it was our obligation to stay until things got straightened out. It's become obvious that won't happen. The longer we stay, the further down the spiral Iraq falls. If we were to just pull out now, things might get even worse in Iraq for a while, but then the UN and other less threatening forces will step in.

But no matter what happens, we serve absolutely no legitimate, moral purpose there. Our presence just inflames the situation. (Of course, we do serve the purpose of the BFEE--establish military bases in Iraq to help control the Middle East and its oil, and to provoke more terrorist attacks that can be used as justification for the continuing militarization of the U.S.)

[BeHereNow]

6. Hmmm, do I smell the perfume of mutiny?

Will our military finally say no to being used/abused
by the corporatists?
I believe there are very good and decent people
in our military- perhaps they have had enough
of watching their young troops die, for what?
By now they are aware of the plan to repeat
the performance in Iran. Maybe, just maybe they
will save us all by refusing to place their lambs
on the conveyor belt to the corporate slaughter house.
BHN

[Fovea]

7. I can see nothing to disagree with here.

We are setting ourselves up for the next world war.
If you want a hint about what it will be like, read the home visit scenes from All Quiet on the Western Front, and then watch that French film about the guerilla war with Algeria in the 60's.

[Eloriel]

9. Oh, HOORAY!

That SOMEone is saying it, and SOMEONE else is reporting it, and SOMEWHERE it's being published.

Of course it's a failure, it was ALWAYS going to be a failure. Military historians (good ones) will tell you that there's NO WAY TO WIN a guerilla war, aside from practicing genocide which, unfortunately, seems to be the plan in part for going forward.

Hell isn't hot enough and eternity isn't long enough to roast these criminals.

[Norquist Nemesis]

10. What would happen to the plans

if Kerry wins? So many things are being put off until after November 2 and Bush will still be in charge until January. So will they still go ahead with these plans?

Having Bush in charge from 11/2 through 1/21/05 after losing to Kerry gets scarier with each passing day.

[pretzel4gore]

12. and now the UN's Annan saying the invasion's illegal....

that damn bushinc has got all of us into shit (i believe that was the intention) and there are still 'patriot' types, lotsa old 'greatest generation' members and virtually the entire mass media PROMOTING the jackass!
these people have to be punished. period.
Someday the Iraqis are gonna SUE US....and they'll have law on their side.... and them bushevik pigs think they be safely living like kings in baja california...

[enough]

14. Will these voices be heard?

snip>

"I see no exit," said Record. "We've been down that road before. It's called Vietnamization. The idea we're going to have an Iraqi force trained to defeat an enemy we can't defeat stretches the imagination. They will be tainted by their very association with the foreign occupier. In fact, we had more time and money in state building in Vietnam than in Iraq."

snip>

[milkyway]

15. Mods: Just curious--why was this thread sent to its death in Editorials?

Most of the article contains original quotes from military experts refuting bush's claims about Iraq. I would think this is news, not just the author's commentary.

[teryang]

16. Great article- majority of military experts see defeat

Hello! Mainstream press, wake up!

[Emillereid]

17. Perhaps this carnage is actually what the neo-cons did plan:

Consider this article from before the war:

http://www.alternet.org/print.html?StoryID=15413
Bush's Axis of Upheaval

Jim Lobe, AlterNet
March 18, 2003
<snip>
Despite the stirring rhetoric, however, there is evidence that
democracy may not be an essential part of the neoconservative grand
vision for the Middle East. The breakdown of national states and the
chaos that could result may be just as acceptable an alternative for
the some in the Bush administration and the men who are shaping its
foreign policy.

"Whenever I hear policymakers talk about the wonders of 'stability,' I
get the heebie-jeebies," wrote Michael Ledeen, a "scholar" at the
neo-conservative American Enterprise Institute (AEI) in early 2000.
"That is for tired old Europeans and nervous Asians, not for us."

"In just about everything we do, from business and technology to cinema
and waging war, we are the most revolutionary force on earth. We are
not going to fight foreign wars or send our money overseas merely to
defend the status quo; we must have a suitably glorious objective,"
said the former "anti-terrorism" consultant for Italian military
intelligence and the Reagan administration, who is counted among the
very few foreign policy analysts regularly consulted by Karl Rove,
President George W. Bush's political eyes and ears at the White House.

<snip>
"As soon as we land in Iraq, we're going to face the whole terrorist
network," he told Robert Dreyfuss in the latest edition of The American
Prospect. By that he meant not only al-Qaeda, Lebanon's Hezbollah, the
Palestinian Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but also Iran, Syria and Saudi
Arabia, nations that he calls "the terror masters".

"I think we're going to be obliged to fight a regional war, whether we
want to or not," Ledeen added. "It may turn out to be a war to remake
the world."

Like his fellow neo-conservatives who shuttle in and out of the Bush
administration, like, say, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz,
Ledeen insists that Iraq will be the first "domino" to fall in what
will become a democratic revolution that will spread the blessings of
liberty and representative government across the Arab Middle East.

<snip>

But the prospect of chaos may not be unattractive to neo-conservatives
like Perle, Ledeen, Wolfowitz and his deputy, Douglas Feith.

<snip>

[teryang]

18. Ledeen is an out and out fascist

His insights are only valuable for characterizing the so called leaders who hide behind his claptrap.

This is a war to remake the United States of America into a fascist state. The politics of dynamic instability is an old Nazi and fascist strategy.

[fizzana]

19. A cousin of a friend who works for the Pentagon in the White

House and is also a lifelong Republican. Six months ago when I met her, she was emphatic about one thing - Bush must go.

This person was reluctant to go into too many details but they said that things are a whole lot worse than anyone knows - not just on the ground in Iraq but in how the Defence Dept. manages to screw up everything they touch.