Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

When did loutish, cruel, and ignorant behavior become socially appropriate?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Editorials & Other Articles Donate to DU
 
TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 08:17 PM
Original message
When did loutish, cruel, and ignorant behavior become socially appropriate?
This bothers me. A lot.

It bothers me a little that people have mean, loutish, ignorant thoughts and beliefs. Not a lot. Because some of my beliefs, when I'm alone in the dark, taking my soul out and looking at it... well, there's a little of the mean, the loutish, the ignorant in me, too. I'm a human being, it's in the DNA.

But I was raised to believe that stuff like that is shameful. That expressing stuff like that will make ordinary people (who have their own Inner Mean Louts, but understand about not letting them out to play,) not want me to live near them or marry their children or work with their spouses or otherwise intersect with them socially.

The closest I let my Inner Yahoo to the surface is when I don't restrain myself from laughing at a mean joke or when I snigger at a cruelly funny remark. And even then, I prefer to do it in privacy, in front of my own computer.

When the Navy SEALs finally took bin Laden out, I admit, there was a small, nasty voice inside me yelling, "Good! I hope you had a last moment of supreme terror and regret, you vile son of a bitch-- and that the shades of every man, woman, and child who's died since you incited your mindless vicious minions to hijack planes in 2001 rise up to accuse you before your Prophet and your God." I admit it. I had those thoughts.

But I tried NOT to express them. Because my Socially Appropriate, Acceptable Self-- the one I resisted acquiring as a child, rebelled against as a teen, chafed against as a young adult, made friends with reluctantly and ultimately learned to appreciate deeply-- told me that the proper, socially appropriate response to that event was more along the lines of: "Well, I'm glad it's over. I would have preferred that he could be brought to trial in a court of law, I would have preferred that no one, not even that sick barstid, die by my government's decree, but I understand the reasons and if this was how it went down, well, I'll make my peace with it."

I have anger-- anger I believe to be righteous and justified-- at the evil done by many of my fellow human-beings. But I try to express that anger in socially appropriate ways. Will I march, will I chant, will I shake my fist and holler? Yes, there are times and places for that.

Will I laugh and applaud tragedy, cruelty, and dehumanization of others? No matter how much evil they may do, I will try hard to condemn actions, express outrage at wrongs, and state opposition to positions and opinions strongly, but without dehumanizing those whom I oppose.

I see a world becoming more habituated to thuggery, to cruelty, to dehumanization. I see a world where politeness, good manners, respectful disagreement, and standards of adult discourse are being shattered and degraded and thrown aside for strident self-expression of beliefs and opinions. I see a world where it's socially appropriate to laugh about the tragedy of people being put to death (hah-hah! YOU DESERVE IT, SUCKER!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!) I see a world where people seeking positions of leadership and authority see no need to remonstrate with thuggish public boo-ing of a service member based on his sexual orientation.

I see a world getting meaner, smaller-souled, colder and more darwinist. (And isn't that just the ultimate in irony? That people who believe the Earth was created 6,000 years ago nevertheless embrace and avow a creepy principle misnamed for the man who first articulated the reasoned science of evolution?)

I see a nation re-shaping its social norms based on the social norms of a suburban junior high school. A nation where adults are not expected to exercise control in presenting their opinions and feelings. Where disagreement stays forever at the level of schoolyard bullying and playing the dozens, and there seems to be no more will to impose any kind of expectations of adult, thoughtful interaction among people who disagree.

But, after all, THEY STARTED IT!

::sigh::

discouragedly,
Bright
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
virgogal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. It all started in the 60's. Everything changed.
Some for the better,some not so good.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. nope
Reagan made greed and idiocy acceptable, and reality TV has made narcissism seem normal and even rewarded
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I agree in part but I do think that attitudes from the sixties and even earlier
in century, attitudes of avant-gard artists share the blame, such as the desire to shock and provoke and sneer at decency. The RW has "appropriated" the tactics of the avant-gard which has always been to attack propriety as evidenced by teatards laughing about letting the uninsured die. The teatards have learnt how to flaunt.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. if there was "shock and provoke and sneer at decency" in the 60's
I'd say it was from the war in Vietnam
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. It was from the war but also from the all the social movements. The social
changes came about because activists were confrontational and lampooned middle-class values. The changes were for the better but we have inherited a whirlwind as the RW seems to have made a study of why the Left was so successful and has come to the conslusions that being polite and mannerly doesn't change things. Limbagh is the RW's Lenny Bruce.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
52. While I get what you're trying to say in your last sentence
it is painful to see Rush Limbaugh compared to Lenny Bruce in any way. Lenny Bruce was heroic and phenomenal, Rush Limbaugh is just a blowhard useless piece of trash.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
23. The artists sneered not at actual decency but at the hypocrisy
posing as decency, when it was in fact, racist, sexist, violent and homophobic in the extreme. Claims of decency by segregated towns, by napalm dropping nations, are masks, not actual 'decency'.
I offer that you should give some specific examples of the art you say sneered at decency. Of course, first you will have to define 'decency'.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. Decency is subjective which is why the term has been appropriated by
both sides of the political spectrum. Everyone who uses it thinks their definition trumps the other. There are lots of examples the first which comes to mind is Lenny Bruce.

"Lenny's four, eight, ten letter words today would not be the weapons of his destruction, "Skover warns. "But would his ideology be shocking today…you bet.

snip

Sex with chickens, transvestite Nazis, pissing in sinks, a gay Lone Ranger, the gender duality of the cocksucker, the hammer effects of social hate-speak like nigger-boogie-kike-wop, the conjugative discussion of "To is a preposition, cum is a verb", Eleanor Roosevelt's tits, the phony imagery of a Jackie Kennedy, the laughable oppression of the Catholic church are just some of the "bits" used to convict Bruce of obscenity. Armed with cryptically worded legal precedence the prosecutors acted as a kind of vengeance squad for the angered American façade.

Causing sexual enticement or turning red the face of a female audience member led to the charge of obscenity in law-speak, but something more sinister was at play. "No one could be convicted for blasphemy in any court," Skover cites. "But in a very real sense Lenny was tried for it anyway."

Blurting "fuck" or "cock" or "tit" may have been the smoking gun, but what Bruce was actually incarcerated for was his irreverent attack on taboo subjects like sexual mores, strained race relations, religious and social persecution, political deceitfulness and asinine celebrity worship. Lenny Bruce voiced too loudly what no one at the time was brave enough to admit in a public forum; things weren't as rosy and wonderful in the good ole USA as previously, and falsely, advertised. And when he refused to bend to threats, those in charge of protecting its image, the government, the church, and the remaining power-based status quo endeavored to bring him down.



http://www.jamescampion.com/cheklenny2.html









Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. Reagan Started It, But W Made It Acceptable to Openly Flaunt One's Crudity
I call it the W Effect.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tumbulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
47. Agreed, but the way was paved by Limbaugh
and the hate radio set who put him in power.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
49. The Christian Right sanctioned that behavior. They put
Edited on Mon Sep-26-11 06:21 PM by alfredo
God's stamp of approval on such behavior.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
22. I second that emotion. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
43. Agreed. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. It started with Ayn Rand enthusiasts
Like Alan Greenspan.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BoredNow Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
60. +1
Yes, it was Ayn Rand who made it acceptable to call the poor and power-less "parasites".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
39. I grew up then....it was still
civilized. People said, 'Please, Thank you and Excuse me.' Shame was alive and well.

It started w/ Raygun in the early '80's. Greed was the ultimate and no room for 'Please and Thank you.' There was no pron until the '80's.

But when Jerry Springer started his show....I could feel the planet shiver in disgust.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
41. I grew up then....it was still
civilized. People said, 'Please, Thank you and Excuse me.' Shame was alive and well.

It started w/ Raygun in the early '80's. Greed was the ultimate and no room for 'Please and Thank you.' There was no pron until the '80's.

But when Jerry Springer started his show....I could feel the planet shiver in disgust.

And now we're gone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
42. Disagree. It began in the 80's with Reagan, the age of greed and the repeal of
the Fairness Doctrine.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PSPS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think the media started the trend for ratings -- Morton Downey Jr.
Subsequently, with the proliferation of cable TV channels, it has been a race to the bottom ever since.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
StarsInHerHair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. when W stole into office
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. Mostly
After that, it was anything goes. And it has.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. 1980 n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I would say 1981, technically
But same idea.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. I count the boneheads electing him as the first big clue.
Swearing him in was like the starting bell for hell.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
40. Long before 1980
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CarmanK Donating Member (459 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. Limbaugh will be gone, KOCHS will die off and Norquist will fade!
Oh and I forgot the Murdogs. After all, the FCC might actually do its job of protecting the american airwaves from corruption and lies and we will once again return to civility in public discourse. The current crop of TMOBS have made it acceptable to be public about racism, bigotry, bullying, hatred, and of course GOD WILL CONDEMN anyone who disagrees with "them" whoever they are?? Evil will never leave us as long as there is mankind. But evil can be overcome. Gov Jan Brewer has black eyes and a black heart, she will be gone in 8 years if not sooner. Super Criminal and Master Thief Rick Scott will be out in FL, DICTATOR IN CHIEF Snyder of MI will see his day and WALKER IS ABOUT TO GO DOWN as the instigation proceeds to uncover his misconduct in office as a County Executive. Of course, he could go sooner, once the recall petitions are circulated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guilded Lilly Donating Member (960 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. Wholeheartedly agree...
Media wars...witless humor, BAD violent, vicious movies, 24/7 cable, ratings wars, Reality TV, anonymity via the user friendly Internet...and a cowardice of many to refuse to accept crassness and bullying and rude, crude behavior. Lack of any accountability from the top down.

It's more than sad, this death of civility. It's killing humanity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. Bothers me a lot too.
Haven't thought long about an answer, but one name popped into my head immediately: Spiro Agnew.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
13. Older then that, started with the Collage Crowd, but in the late 1800s.
The Classic situation was at the end of the Testimony of William Jennings Bryan in 1927. The people of the town did a traditional method of honoring someone, they formed a honor line of both side of Bryan as he walked from the Court house to his Hotel.

On the other side, the reporters, most of whom worked for either republican papers OR democratic papers that had always opposed Bryan instead all gathered around Darrow and slapped him on the back for "Beating Bryan". 30 years before when a US Battleship sunk a Spanish Battleship during the Spanish-American War, when the Crew started to cheer, the Captain of the US Battleship ordered them to Stop, for they were seeing men die and that was nothing at.

Bryan had been attacked all during his Political Life, much of what most people know of him is a product of those attacks. Even his stand on the Scoops Monkey Trial was a product of his view that people should work with each other to better the world, not an attack on Science.

Bryan's sanity was first questioned during the 1896 Presidential election, and continued afterward. The reason was simple the GOP opposed almost everything he wanted to do as far as the economy was concerned (The classic observation was Herbert Hoover's who called FDR's New Deal Bryanism without Bryan). The elections involving Bryan was as nasty as they are today. FDR saw similar hatred, as did Truman, JFK, LBJ, and Carter. Even Clinton was attacked.

On the other hand the Democratic response to these attack has NEVER been to go to the same level, but to attack with facts (Truman's famous statement when someone yelled "Give them Hell, Harry", Truman response was, paraphased "I don't give them Hell, I tell the truth and that is worse then Hell for the Republicans". )

Side Note: Technically the Charge in the Scoop Monkey Trial was for teaching HUMAN evolution, the law did NOT forbid the teaching of Evolution itself. Bryan had written the law for he had seen evolution being used as an excuse for bad behavior even among humans and thought that the teaching of HUMAN evolution was to tied in with Social Darwinism to be permitted to be taught in School. Survivor of the Fittest does NOT encourage people to work to the Common Good, a concept center to Bryan's world view as it is the center of Christianity, but it is a concept opposed by the GOP economic elites for they see themselves as the "Fitness" and as such the people who should get all the awards and the poor just die off as the less fit things these elites view the poor as.

Bryan had read reports on the German High Command of WWI, where it was found the most of the German High Command believed war would kill off the "weak" and promote the "Strong" and that all of this death was justified under the Theory of Evolution. Bryan rejected that concept and saw the Theory of Evolution being used to promote such Social Darwinism. Furthermore Bryan had no problem with people teaching the theory, but the problem was why should people who OPPOSED the theory be FORCED to pay for the theory to be taught (I.e. Taught in Public Schools).

You never hear this argument in any discussion of the Scoop's Monkey Trial for the GOP had so tainted Bryan's reputation that most people see Bryan as a fundamentalist loon, NOT the progressive/liberal politician he was. The GOP wants to do the same to any progressive politician for the same reason, to get people to think of the left as a bunch of loons. The left does NOT help the situation for the Left tends to be so divided that they tend to adopt these GOP talking points as to other lefties instead of seeing what they are, attempts to divide the left so the Right will win.

These attacks were NOT reported in the 1950s, but you saw it in reference to the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s, the demand for Civil Rights in the 1960s, the opposition to the War in Vietnam in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The First effort as to the Environment of the 1970s. Anyone who oppose anything of Reagan in the 1980s, etc. This series of attacks have NEVER stopped as far as attacks on Democrats have been, and those attacks started when Bryan kicked out the "Me Too" right wing Democrats in 1896 and move the Democratic Party to the economic, but electable left (Still to the right of the Socialists and Communists, but way left of the GOP and the DLC wing of the Democratic Party).

M<y point is simple, the attacks have always been there, people just tend to forget them once their generation has passed on, thus we forget about the attacks against Bryan, FDR and Truman. The attacks on JFK tend to die with him, but LBJ (like Bryan) continued to be attack for decades after he passed away, for the simple reason he had made mistakes (such as Vietnam) but did more progressive actions on economic issues then anyone before or since. It is the economic policy of LBJ that make the GOP hate him, but like the attacks on Bryan, it is easier to attack his economic policies by showing LBJ's mistakes, such as Vietnam, and then destroy the economic policies on the quite.

Such severe attacks has been the GOP policy since at least 1896 and it seems to be working for them, most of the people even on this board, DU, can NOT think in terms before 1960, let alone 1980, and the attacks have gone on for over 100 years. The GOP attacks and hope something will stick. Once something sticks, they keep pressing it, unless it turns out to be something good for the Democrats, then it is dropped like a hot potato. If something gets old, I even saw attacks on LBJ during the Reagan years till some cartoonist, on the issue of unemployment, made a cartoon with people "cheering" Hay, Hay, LBJ, how many people lost they job today? (A variation of the Vietnam era chant against LBJ of hay, hay, LBJ, how many kids have you lost today" about the losses in Vietnam). The Cartoonist and others made a point, LBJ had been out of office for almost 15 years, dead for almost 10 years, and the GOP was still attacking him as to his economic policies. Carter was attacked even under Clinton's administration by the GOP, Clinton and Carter are still being attacked today (And they are still attacks on LBJ, but not by high level GOP operatives).

My point is simple, this is NOT a recent development, it has been going on since at least 1896 and will continue for another 100 years, until the GOP is punished for bring it up (As it was during FDR's term of office, where the GOP NEVER gained control of either houses of Government), followed by Truman's only having to face a GOP controlled House of Representatives from 1946-1948, and then Solid Democratic House till 1994 (except for the first term of Eisenhower's administration, 1952-1954). This forced the GOP to behave themselves for they were the political outs and needed some Democratic Support for what they wanted (Mostly Southern Democrats, but while DINOs, they were still proud of being Democrats and would NOT tolerate anyone who attacked Democrats for being Democrats, thus the GOP kept these attacks under wraps, with help from the New Media, but with Reagan and his de facto Majority in the House, the DINOs from the South gave the Democrats technical dominance of the House, but the GOP actual Dominance for most would vote with the GOP instead of their fellow Democrats on economic issues).

The De Facto lost of the House under Reagan left the GOP to release some of their hot heads, but the winning of the House in 1994 permitted the GOP to release them fully. No need to be concerned about the Democrats, they were no loner needed and thus the attacks, which had always occurred even during the 1930s to the 1980s, just came to the surface. This was aided by the net, it was harder for the network to cover up how extreme these GOP members were and thus that control over them was gone. Notice these controls were more to restrict who heard the attacks, not the attacks themselves. The GOP still used the attacks, but made sure only other good republicans heard them. Today, the GOP has no desire to cover up such attacks AND the net permit us all to see them. Thus the attacks are more public today, but the same type of attacks were occurring in the 1930s-1990s, but covered up. If you looked for them you could find them, and that is my point. Just because the NET permit such people to make such statements does NOT mean it is something new, such statements have been made since at least 1896, but now we are back to being open about it, like the GOP was between 1896 and the 1936 (When the GOP lost every state in the Union except Maine and Vermont, it forced the GOP to control these radical and to cover them up, but these radical and their attacks never ever really went away, just covered up so the GOP had a chance of winning an election).

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
28. Wow...
I made it through your entire comment. I hope you use "Scoops" trial as an ironic term. John Thomas SCOPES was the nexus of this historic trial.

Some resources you might appreciate:

Broca's Brain by Carl Sagan

People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck (I made allowances for Peck's 'religiosity,' with which I disagree)

Patterns in Culture by Ruth Benedict

Analyzing Deviance by James D. Orcutt

Blaming the Victim by William Ryan

Our species is a rather recent blip on the evolutionary radar, not far removed from our 'animal' ancestry. Our inflated sense of self worth and 'majesty' will not protect us from our own hubris.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
48. Thanks, yes. I was going to refer to some of those in a response as well.
I'd just like to clarify, since I didn't really do so in the OP, that my concern is not for the presence of mean, loutish thuggery in politics generally-- as many have pointed out, it's always been there. Nor for the sub-rosa expressions of human boorishness and bigotry that characterize our "private" interactions, when we in-groupers are deconstructing whatever out-group we need to pile our resentments on today. Again, ubiquitous.

It's the movement of such grotesque, crude, caitiffery into the "established" public discourse, and the tolerance, even the encouragement thereof by those who theoretically should be attempting to uphold basic adult standards of discourse.

There have always been Lenny Bruces and other shock-for-shock's sake celebrities. There have always been artists and journalists who plant their standards in the "outrage convention" territory. That's fine, that's functional, we need a certain amount of that to keep the pompous babbitry and hypocritical doubletalk at bay. I'm a fan of the Rude One myself.

But in mainstream public discourse? When an elected official can holler "liar" at the President IN THE CONGRESSIONAL CHAMBER, during a nationally televised, official address? When candidates for office are presenting themselves under the aegis of national media, to discuss their qualifications and answer questions?

There have always been incidents of this-- in the run-up to the Civil War fisticuffs broke out more than once in the Senate and House Chambers. There are examples studded like boils on the historical record. But even in their days, the response by the major arbiters of public comment of their era was generally one of disapprobation.

It has seemed to me that throughout my life until the last couple of decades, there has always been a public consciousness that it is desirable to elevate the discourse of the polity to an adult, reasoned, generally restrained level, even if the substance of the debate is bitter division. One respondent in this thread spoke of the need to desensitize the public to such standards and referred to 1930s Germany. Godwin's Law aside, I think that helped crystallize just WHY I feel so uneasy and creeped-out by the whole phenomenon.

Hate is the icky underbelly of human interaction. The rise of human civilization is a long march of institutions intended to restrain manifestations of hatred in order to build ordered societies where differences can be resolved without chaos and bloodshed. When loutish thuggery becomes tolerated and even encouraged by the institutions of our society, can chaos and bloodshed be far behind?

worriedly,
Bright
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #48
58. Actually,
I fully anticipate chaos and bloodshed...

Our species is grossly overpopulated. Calhoun's research with rats highlights our own aberrant responses to relentless population growth--certainly not an optimal framework within which to address the radical income inequity imposed on the vast Hoi Polloi by a mere handful of hedonists.

I most appreciate what Sahlins said about our economic behavior du jour:

The market-industrial system institutes scarcity, in a manner completely unparalleled and to a degree nowhere else approximated. Where production and distribution are arranged through the behavior of prices, and all livelihoods depend on getting and spending, insufficiency of material means becomes the explicit, calculable starting point of all economic activity. ... Consumption is a double tragedy: what begins in inadequacy will end in deprivation.


What begins in inadequacy ends in deprivation... I believe the worst is yet to come.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
53. I'm impressed...couldn't quite get thru it.
Hope your book recommendations are a little easier to follow than our OP. Which one should I start with?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. I'm sorry you found the OP hard to follow. Is there anything I can clarify? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. Well...
I hesitate to recommend one book from that list over any of the others. Personally, I pick up a new or recommended resource and read either the preface, or the first few pages. I will then choose whichever book most intrigues me, or whichever book is most relevant to me at that point in time.

All that being said, and considering the sad state of public discourse these days, I suggest you look at Barry's "The Dog Ate my Homework" before you dive into anthing I listed hereinabove. I think Barry has given us a concise and easy-to-read book about externalizing responsibility--which seems to be the framework within which many of us spew vitriol on our fellow human beings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
59. Good recommendations. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
14. It was here all along but we said "No" to hate in the 60s and 70s. Then Reagan brought it back
when he decreed that AIDS was God's vengeance on gays and therefore he would not fund a cure.

The KKK was a huge national organization with a huge membership in the 1920s. Lynchings were social events where people photographed themselves and sent postcards. The US erected a fucking memorial to celebrate the murder of innocent women and children (who had come under a truce flag) to Sand Creek. We enslaved Africans. We hung "witches".

The good news is we were able to mend our hateful ways for almost a decade not so long ago. The kids from back then are adults now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. The OFA embraced, employed and defended hate speech
went so far as to call those who use it 'good, decent and moral'. Your 'memory' about Reagan is incorrect. Reagan never said a single, solitary word about AIDS until surgeon general Koop forced him to start some action. It was the silence of Reagan that did harm, much as the silence of today's anti equality bastards continues to do harm. In part because of the resounding silence from the Regan administration, the slogan of the era on our side was: Silence = Death Knowledge = Life That phrase still angers the 'moderate supporters' here.
Ronald Reagan is dead. Larry Karmer is alive.
This interviews covers the issues quickly and fairly well. Reagan was poison, the worst President ever but it was not about his 'decrees' for he had none. He did not decree God's vengeance. He said nothing. He did nothing. Koop, a right to lifer, wound up being the one who motivated some steps forward.
It is important for straight Democrats to understand that this was the moment our community came to the DNC, which had previously refused to have us. Yes. Reagan's silence opened the floodgates. Most straight Democrats are sure the DNC has always been 'gay friendly' but the fact is, Bill Clinton was the first Democratic nominee to so much as say the word 'gay' in a positive way. The first, ever, to speak of us as part of the Democratic Party. Bill and other Democrats were moved to some acceptance in the face of the calloused indifference of Reagan, but it took a plague and a despot along with thousands of voices calling for change to get that first, begrudging mention from the Democratic Party.
http://www.democracynow.org/2004/6/10/ignoring_aids_the_reagan_years
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
27. 9/11 didn't help either
I wish I remembered exactly where, but I recall reading a discussion shortly after about how hate was ok again - referring to the "hate is not a family value" meme, and how it was time, and appropriate, to hate again. Turned my stomach...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malthaussen Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
17. Late '70s, Early '80s, I think.
Loutish and cruel behavior have of course been with us always. As debate tactics, they have a long history: the rhetorical mode is called "invective" and is often nowadays confused with the argumentum ad hominem. Read some of the exchanges between Erasmus and Luther some time, and you will see some prime examples; more recently, just about every American politician has employed these tactics with pride.

But the OP wonders when this behavior became "socially acceptable" in the US. While the avant-garde artists might have indulged in it (and always have), and the "Filthy Speech" (ooops, I mean "Free Speech") movement of the mid-sixties may have propagated it among spoiled white middle-class college kids, it appears to have become "acceptable" once the mainstream media began to produce shows in which more and more vile ("realistic") conduct was shown and language became more vulgar ("realistic"). I'd guess "All in the Family" is one of the starting points, certainly by the time of "Hill Street Blues" it was common. I'm not suggesting a causal relationship here, and if there is one I rather suspect it goes the other way -- art imitating life.

I've been dragging my sorry corpus around since before the Dodgers left Brooklyn, and my subjective impression (and that of many of my age cohort) is that people have become "meaner" over the years. People proclaim "I'm rude" as if it were something to be admired. I suppose the argument in favor of such an outlook would be that it is "more honest," which if true is a rather dramatic commentary on human culture right there.

It's an interesting subject, but one that I rather expect would require a long monograph to investigate fully. I suggest, however, that the real question is not when these modes of expression became "acceptable," but when the behavior of hatred, exceptionalism, mockery, and bullying became acceptable. Silly me... I used to think civilization was intended to discourage these, and not the opposite.

-- Mal
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Papagoose Donating Member (361 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
18. It bothers me beyond belief that civility and respect are dying
I was raised in a Republican household, where Jimmy Carter was seen as absolutely the Worst. President. Ever. My father would go on endlessly about what a terrible president Carter was and how he was hurting the country and the economy through his policies. My dad argued at the TV, tried to show me that Carter was wrong on so many issues and implored me to grow up to be a Republican. However, once, my Dad was given the opportunity to meet President Carter...he jumped at the chance. Dad bought a new suit, got a haircut and even a manicure! When the time came, my dad looked President Carter in the eye when they shook hands and told him that it was an honor to meet him. They shared their few seconds of small talk and then the moment passed.

A few nights later, President Carter was on the TV and my Dad started criticizing him again, which was confusing to me. My dad explained to me, not for the first or last time that the President of the United States deserved respect, regardless of party, position or popularity. That the Office of the President was bigger than any one man and that no matter what, was to be treated with dignity.

I have tried, with mixed success, to carry this lesson with me. It was so severely challenged during the reign of GWB, but that stemmed in large part from the fact that I don't believe he was legitimately elected.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
19. K&R! There is a reason for this.
This has been a concerted effort. It is necessary to desensitize the American people to cruelty if the "new fascists" are to achieve their goals.

This is very similar to how it happened in 1920s/1930s Germany. The German nation did not start out with an 'exterminate the jews' policy. First there was a gradual increase in anti-jewish rhetoric and a general scapegoating of jews, socialists, communists, trade unionists, gays and what they termed "the useless eaters". It was like the frog in the water gradually being boiled to death until it was too late. This is PRECISELY what is happening in the U.S.A today.

Do your part in awakening the American people to the peril they face before it is too late.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
25. I get what you're saying, but sometimes I wonder if it's not the Myth of a Golden Age.
I too would prefer a world where civility is applauded and meanness shunned. But I have to look around and admit that even though it may not feel like it at times, I'd still rather live now than in any previous age. I don't think we're more violent or crude than previous generations. We just have faster and wider access to bad behavior. Perhaps in the long run that will work in our favor and subsequent generations will come to value civility even more highly because of the speed and breadth of global communication.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malthaussen Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Not a Golden Age Myth
It's a reasonable thought that the OP may be based more on rose-colored memories than reality, and certainly the point of immediate access to bad behavior through 24/7 media coverage is well-taken. But there are a couple of other considerations to take into account.

The population of the Earth has doubled since I was born. If there are a given percentage of barbarians born in each generation, then the simple doubling of population will create a greater incidence of barbaric acts, and thus a greater incidence of reportage. Then there is the "rat population threshold" problem -- the rate of incidence of barbaric behavior might also be going up as a function of increased population pressure, thus creating even more incidents which can be spread all over the Internet.

Then there is anecdotal evidence, which is what is most subject to the "Golden Age" influence that you address. One of the other problems with anecdotal evidence is also that one must consider who is reminiscing and how their particular environment and experiences may have differed from another's. For example, in my schools there were bullies in sufficiency, but no one ever beat up kids, stole their lunch money, and locked them in their lockers. One might argue that incidents of that nature occurring now or at some other time demonstrate an increased degree of antisocial behavior from what was present earlier; OTOH maybe I just went to nice schools.

Yet some anecdotal evidence is also verifiable in other ways. For example, NASCAR drivers recently refused to meet the POTUS due to disagreement with his political views. The same thing happened when members of the Ryder Cup golf team (the team that represents the US in international competition!) refused to meet with Mr Clinton circa 1990. That refusal generated quite a bit of comment at the time, because it was the first time on record professional athletes had refused a Presidential invitation. Therefore we might conclude, since that was the first such incident, some deterioration of manners kicking in around 1990, at least among privileged white country club children. Many golfers of more seasoned vintage were quite critical of their younger colleagues, arguing that such a thing "would never have happened in their day." There is of course a critical difference between "would" and "did," nevertheless, such a thing never had occurred in their day.

There has never been a Golden Age, and one can produce plenty of evidence of barbaric conduct from the Sixties or any other decade of one's choice. I reckon one would have to get himself a fat grant from the government or a private institution, do some computer and spreadsheet work with interviews and statistical analysis, and write a monograph to produce an "objective" answer to this question. I wouldn't be surprised if someone already has, although I haven't seen one. Pour moi, I believe I am capable of a tolerable amount of judgement as to whether or not my memories are tainted by nostalgia, weltschmertz, or schadenfreude, and so am reasonably comfortable with my subjective impression that people are less "civil" than they used to be. But remember, all human conduct is subject to the tyranny of the bell curve.

-- Mal

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. I think it is entirely too subjective to measure accurately.
I found your reference to school bullying interesting. I had a meeting with some teachers at the end of August, most of whom had been teaching in excess of 15-20 years. The older teachers commented on how much nicer students are to one another than they were in the 80s and 90s. I found the statements shocking as I would have easily assumed the contrary since I haven't been in a high school classroom since the mid-80s. But they all nodded and agreed. I received a nice email from my son's English teacher just Friday afternoon complimenting her class on their compassion and courtesy when one of the students became overly emotional and cried when reading something in front of the class. In her email she commented that if this had happened just five years ago she would have expected at least one or two students to laugh or shame the distraught student. Now she knows she can count on more supportive reactions. I don't doubt bullying persists, I just found the anecdotes from this particular group of teachers quite heartening.

As I said, I understand where the OP is coming from, but if I don't have optimism that humans are capable of better behavior and indeed can move in the direction of increased civility I'd probably go crazy.

That, and I've heard the whole "courtesy is dying or dead" concern expressed for at least three decades now and it has appeared in writing for ages. Didn't one of the ancient Greeks bemoan the decline in civil behavior? Honestly, I see the worst behavior from my elders and celebrities. Most of my peers and the younger generations seem to value courtesy. I suppose if I look for my rose colored glasses I'll find them on my nose though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jtuck004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
26. January 20, 1981 /nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
30. Our Mean and Cold World...
We humans are manifesting a level of mental dis-ease that is both frightening and corrosive. Far too many of us are in react mode, driven by inchoate fears and resentments. Far too many of us are willing to pollute our spirits with negativity, eagerly engaging in name-calling and other forms of vilification. Far too many of us are willing to glorify violence or resort to violence, often just for entertainment or personal gratification.

We seldom acknowledge the import of overpopulation, but Calhoun's research with rats has proven that when a critical level of overpopulation occurs, the outcome isn't pretty. With rats, abnormal sexual behavior, hyperaggression, eating their young, and increased mortality are a few of the problems that occurred--and NONE of the rats survived. With humans, well...isn't it past time we acknowledge that our species has passed a critical tipping point?

When I was younger (and naive) I thought our species was in its adolescence--obsessed with sex, drugs, and all other forms of self-gratification, especially as regards our economic behaviors. However, I've come to understand that overpopulation is THE macro-level manifestation of our species' hedonism. Regardless of how much energy we devote to denying the ravages of overpopulation, they are writ large by our increasingly sophisticated, increasingly corrosive socio-cultural and technological constructs--the very same constructs we use to remain in denial, and to externalize responsibility for our collective hubris.

Bearing this in mind, I feel overwhelmed with disappointment about the choices we (as a collective) have been making, because we seem to be moving inexorably back into 'balance' on a planetary scale. When it's time for Gaia to roll over and scrape us off her backside, the inevitable consequences of our hedonistic overpopulation and denial of personal responsibility promise to be extreme.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stockholmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
33. when the first crown was placed upon a king, this put paid to any myth that the loutish & cruel
would not soon come to dominate human society. Their myriad guises and means of control may have varying manifestations throughout the ages, their will to power does not. A certain toadying typology with the zeitgeist always is drawn to ape the actions of those they perceive to have they whip-hand, thus lout mimics lout, usually with the implicit approval of the lout nearer to the pinnacle of the socio-economic system.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
34. see: Jerry Springer and dawn of Reality TV shows
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
david_vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
35. Two words: Lee Atwater n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hoosier Daddy Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
36. SHUT UP!!!!!
Recced
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
37. Mostly since God got pissy and obliterated all but 8 people in the Great Flood. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LadyHawkAZ Donating Member (800 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
38. I don't think it ever stopped to begin with
There's always been a group or groups that acted as whipping boys to another group, and behaviors to the whipping-boy group have always been clearly separate from behaviors to everyone else. Racism and sexism, for example, have never gone out of style. The only thing that changes is what group you are in and who is in the "bad" group from that perspective.

Some people just fight the mindset a little harder than others. That's all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
44. I first noticed a lot of obnoxiousness for the sake of being obnoxious
in the early 1980s. That's when bumperstickers like, "Yes, I do own the whole damn road" or "My kid beat up your honor student" began appearing. That's when classroom behavior problems began showing up in college classrooms. That's when gross-out comedies began showing up in theaters. That's when TV sitcoms degenerated into people slinging unfunny insults at one another.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadine_mn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
45. I am not trying to sound trite - but pretty much when Europeans "discovered"
America... and set out to 'own' what was never theirs. The long history of reducation of Native Americans, slavery and internment camps... well its always been the norm.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
46. I LONG FOR THE GOOD OL' DAYS, WHEN IGNORANCE WASN'T CONSDERED A POLICITAL POSITION.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=197263

... Nowadays, conservative radio polemicists convulsed with hatred, writhing with rage, whip-up the uninformed, inciting them to extremism and intolerance, attitudes which are antithetical to the spirit in which this country was founded. Individuals claiming to be “pro-Life” barely hide their willingness to squeeze the life out of those who would dare to disagree with them. What does this lead to – public policy driven by hysteria and superstition, members of congress threatening judges and home grown terrorists blowing up people (I wonder what conservative radio hosts Timothy McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, Paul Hill, James Kopp liked to listen to.). These conservative mouths tell those who are frustrated and disappointed with their lives that the source of all their woes is Big Government. Conservatives like to preach about he evils of Big Government, but they are very comfortable using government power to go after their political enemies ( Tom Delay used Dept of Homeland Security to hunt down Texas Democrats). Republicans show a frightening facility for the techniques of totalitarianism.

The NeoCons preach morality but practice politics of personal destruction, viciously attacking and libeling anyone who disagrees with them rather than addressing their policy positions. First, an outrageous accusation about a political opponent, attributed to an “anonymous source”, appears on a conservative web-site, then Neo-con talk show ‘mouths’ or propaganda sheet (The Washington Times, Neo-Conning the Media) “columnists” pick up the fraudulent charge and toss it around producing a heated stream of meaningless chatter. They are hoping that all the talk about the shadow charges will educe an actual material wrong-doing (if only in the minds of the gullible). The libel is later revealed to have no basis in fact, and all the participants in the mini-hysteria scurry for the nearest crack in the floor-boards. No one ever retracts anything said or admits to their contribution to the misinformation. The mainstream media who often repeat the outlandish rumors also don’t bother to clarify or admit that they were party to a hoax. And an enduring lie takes on a life of its own.

(more)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jack Sprat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
50. 1981 n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
51. It was that way for many years
It kind of died out in the 40's, 50's and early 60's
But it came back again
It's often masked in the 'He's so honest.' mantra
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
abelenkpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
54. The internet and anonymous commenting
has brought hate talk to a new level.

(I say anonymously.)

:hide:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dogmoma56 Donating Member (329 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
56. i now believe in 'Demons', i was a research scientist, IQ164, but Demon infection explains it all..
Doug Coe, Disciple of Anti-Christ Abraham Vereide gave a lecture to his minions, "we don't Recruit, we don't indoctrinate.. we "Infect"

good people get invited to secret prayer meetings and come out hearing voices that instruct them on what to do.. see Jeff sharlots book 'The Family" cheap on amazon.

i have had intelligent friends go Fundi over night.. way far out the other side. totally under their control. my brother became unbelievably irrational in a very short period of time. it is unbelievable.. his mind is GONE.!! NOT THE SAME PERSON IN THERE ANY MORE.

they call themselves Spiritual Warrior's, their weapons are demons. how else could so many people many intelligent and educated be so stupid and belligerent. the Dominionists exhibit the same hate and desire to control or kill as early archaic death cults.. from sumeria, mesopotamia

http://doggo.tripod.com/doggchrisdomin.html

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

http://blog.buzzflash.com/hartmann/10016

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
61. January 20, 1981. /nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syntheto Donating Member (283 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
62. You are so right!
...Let's take the son of a bitches O.U.T!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Editorials & Other Articles Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC