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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 10:12 PM
Original message
The Mysterious Death of Bush's Cyber-Guru. Now posted online @ MAXIM
Edited on Fri Feb-12-10 10:47 PM by sce56
Filed under Humor Stupid Fun????






Shortly before six o’clock on the evening of December 19, 2008, a man standing outside his home in Lake Township, Ohio heard the whine of an engine in the sky above him. Moments later two red lights broke through the low clouds, heading almost directly toward the ground. It was a light aircraft, and for a second, as it descended below the tree line, the man thought it would climb back up. Instead, there was a terrible thud, and the sky turned orange. When the fire crews arrived, they found the burning wreckage of a Piper Saratoga strewn across a vacant lot. The plane had narrowly missed a house, but the explosion was so intense that the home’s plastic siding was on fire. So was the grass. The pilot had been thrown from the plane and died instantly. Body parts and pieces of twisted metal were scattered everywhere. A prayer book lay open on the ground, its pages on fire.
The crash would have remained a private tragedy confined to the pages of the local press and the hearts of the pilot’s widow and four children, but within days the blogosphere was abuzz with rumors and conspiracy theories: The plane, it was said, had been sabotaged and the pilot murdered to cover up the GOP’s alleged theft of the Ohio vote in the 2004 presidential election. At the center of this plot was the Saratoga’s pilot, a prodigiously gifted IT expert named Michael Connell, whose altar boy charm and technical brilliance had made him the computer whiz of choice for the Republican Party. Left-wing Web sites openly referred to Connell as “Bush’s vote rigger” and claimed that his fingerprints were on all the most controversial elections in recent history. There were dark whispers of electronic pulses or sniper fire being used to bring down the plane—a black ops attack designed to keep him from testifying against his former cronies. Right-wing bloggers and talk show hosts derided such claims as the twisted delusions of liberal nut jobs and tinfoil hatters. The mainstream press sat on its hands.

But while the rumors, innuendos, and allegations continue to swirl through the ether, evidence has recently emerged that suggests the Ohio vote may have been hacked, and that Connell was involved.

<snip>

By any calculation, the Ohio 2004 election was a black day for American democracy. Lou Harris, known as the “father of modern political polling,” and a man not given to hyperbole, called it “as dirty an election as America has ever seen.” All the exit polls suggested Ohio would go to Kerry. But when the vote was counted George Bush had won by 132,685 votes, adding Ohio’s crucial 20 Electoral College votes to his tally. And putting him, not Kerry, into the White House. It has since been alleged that at several points on election night, the Ohio secretary of state’s official Web site, which was responsible for reporting the results, was being hosted by a server in a basement in Chattanooga, Tennessee.
<snip>

The audiotapes of Connell’s last communications with the tower suggest a rising sense of panic and confusion. Realizing that he is still off course, he asks to do a 360-degree turn “to reestablish ourselves.” It’s an unusual maneuver at this late stage of the approach, and the flight controller denies the request. Instead, he advises Connell to “climb and maintain 3,000 feet.” Seconds later there is a loud rushing sound as the cockpit bursts open and the engine goes haywire. Connell screams, “Nine nine November declaring an emergency!” Out of respect for his religious beliefs—and his children—the tower reported that his last words were, “Oh, God!” In fact, he cries out, “Oh, fuck!” Then the tape goes dead.
Capt. Lorin Geisner of the Greentown Fire Department was the first person to arrive at the scene. “We received a 911 call, so we contacted the tower and asked what size plane it was and how many souls were on board,” he recalls. “But we were informed that the tower was in lockdown and that no information was available.”


Tip O the Hat to the Brad Blogs FaceBook page alerting me to this!
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Tutankhamun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Very suspicious, to say the least.
I'm off to Maxim.com for the full piece. As for this post, it's off to the "Greatest" page with 5 recs!
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ladym55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. Official word is pilot error
Locally this story cannot and will not be covered, any more than in Ohio will anyone local admit that 2004 was stolen. Anyone who questions anything is considered delusional.

Both the 2004 election and Connell's death both stink, but will likely to remain in the shadows of shame that marked the first 10 years of the new century in American politics.
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-12-10 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Check out the book in my sigline if we make it a best seller we might pull back the curtain
to reveal the truth behind the madness.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. I'm currently reading this book & highly recommend it to others
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. It turns the Watergate Story upside down now?
Seems like Nixon was set up by Poppy Bush to fail. Then Ford one of the people that hid the truth in the WCR gets the office how convenient.
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. But... Official report not released yet... from article...
After more than nine months, the factual report into Connell’s crash had still not been made public. According to an NTSB spokesperson, it was “still being reviewed.” That’s scant comfort 
to Connell’s family, who just want some sense of closure, whatever the outcome.
Still, “In my mind and my heart,” says Shannon Connell, “I am convinced he was murdered.”
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pa28 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Here's a factual report.
Edited on Sat Feb-13-10 01:21 AM by pa28
Recent and may have been released after the article was written.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20081223X12815&ntsbno=CEN09FA099&akey=1

I don't think they have a published conclusion yet but it looks like they are (not surprisingly) leaning toward spatial disorientation and failure to follow published procedure as well as weather.

The details of the accident are like a movie you've seen before but some of the circumstances I've seen noted elsewhere are interesting.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. The NTSB does not say what happened to Connell's blackberry.
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James48 Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
44. NTSB report contains things not possible.
Edited on Sat Feb-13-10 09:18 PM by James48
the NTSB report lists, several times, that the aircraft was in a 30 to 40 degree left bank. The full report is here:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=CEN09FA099&rpt=fi

The full report includes probable cause.

There is nothing on a PA32-301T built in 1997 that would record that kind of bank information. No flight data recorder. No electronic instrumentation which records bank data. You can't get that off radar data. He never said anything like that on the tapes.

So where is that "fact" coming from ? ? ?

Here are the two lines from the report- which are physically impossible to establish as "fact" after the crash:
#1 "The airplane briefly turned right toward the approach course centerline, but seconds later, the airplane rolled into about a 30-degree left bank,"

#2 " The airplane's left bank gradually increased to about 40 degrees at that time. The controller asked the pilot for his present heading and the pilot responded "due north and climbing." The airplane began to climb while remaining in a 30 to 40-degree left bank. The controller instructed the pilot to climb without delay. Pitch increased above 20 degrees with the airplane still in a 30-degree left bank"

Bullshit. There is no datalink on this aircraft transmitting bank information. There is no flight data recorder on a PA32-301T. Radar would not tell you bank information. The pilot said nothing about bank data. I call this one flat out- there is no way this could be know.

As to the plane-

There is no deicing equipment on this model aircraft.

I agree, as a pilot, that after reading- that everything says pilot error in this crash. Possible/probable icing, and spacial disorientation. I've been disoriented a bit myself before- night time in the clouds is bad news. I believe that.

But I am telling you- that there is NO WAY that the bank angles reported in the NTSB report would be or could be known.

Just my 2 cents.

P.S.- Bush sucks.
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pa28 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-14-10 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. Welcome to DU
:toast:

Hey James, always good to have another pilot type around.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-14-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #5
57. Well, Shannon, your hubby got in bed with some evil people
sucks to be him
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
4. Amazing article MUST READ ..wife ands sister believe it could be murder..more..
Edited on Sat Feb-13-10 12:36 AM by wroberts189
Among other things, the contracts contradict Connell’s sworn testimony that SMARTech, in Chattanooga, merely acted as a backup site for election data.

The contracts, signed in March 2004, show that SMARTech was specifically tasked with creating a “mirror site” to manage election night results.“What this means is that Connell’s company was on both sides of the mirror,” explains Stephen Spoonamore. “And that the votes of the people of Ohio were in the control of a fiercely partisan IT company (SMARTech) and operating out of another state.”

Clouding matters further is the persistent specter of paranoid conspiracy that has enveloped the case from the beginning. In September 2009, an anonymous letter was sent to the FBI in Ohio and five other addressees, including Heather Connell. “Enclosed is a document that is not meant to exist,” begins the anonymous writer. Included is what purports to be an “after action report” by a black ops agent. All names have been redacted, but the report provides a detailed time log of actions taken to install an AMD (microprocessor) in the engine of Connell’s plane at College Park Airfield in D.C. the night before he made his fatal last flight. Connell himself is not mentioned by name. Just the registration number of his plane, NP299N, which the agent confirms he had been sent to “neutralize.” The letter accompanying the report is headed MICHAEL CONNELL, HOMICIDE. It ends with the words: “Connell was not NST (national security threat).”

While skeptics may be tempted to dismiss these documents as the ingenious work of a hoaxer intent on pouring gasoline on the bonfire of conspiracy theories already surrounding Connell, 
a number of experts from the intelligence community who have seen the document believe it to be genuine.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. SMARTech was not a backup site, it was a "laundry" site, used to launder the election results.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
6. K & R.....Take note all you enablers that have helped to put America in this state....
The people you helped are not above murdering your ass.
The body pile keeps getting higher and higher.
So
If you know ANYTHING..ANYTHING AT ALL about the vote rigging, 9-11, the drug smuggling, the tortures.... the nukes flying all over the place (please note most of the crew there is also dead.)..
ANYTHING...NOW is the time to step forward and you just might save your own ass.
Because if you don't...if your stupid enough to keep playing their game....it is only a matter of time before you are a
"pilot error/suicide/accidental death" too.
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. K&R and I second that opinion
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
8. “But we were informed that the tower was in lockdown and that no information was available.”
This is the first I've heard of that.

Thanks, sce56. Rec.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. Wonder who was working in that tower at that time.
Was it in lockdown because of the crash? Or what does lockdown mean in this context?
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Good question. Any of you aviators out there have the scoop on this "tower lockdown"?
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
34. Must have been a Homeland Security Event like the last county to announce their election results
The Ohio Factor: Did Homeland Security and the FBI interfere With the Vote Count?
Warren Ohio
http://www.democracynow.org/2004/11/10/the_ohio_factor_did_homeland_security
In Warren County, Ohio, election officials took a rather unprecedented action on November 2:
They locked down the building where the votes were being tallied, blocking anyone from observing the vote counting process.

Sound familiar?
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. That was one of those undesirable events that had receded into the dim recesses, but thanks
for reminding me. Some things we should never forget.

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abq e streeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 02:58 AM
Response to Original message
9. yet another murder I bet these bastards get away with
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 04:07 AM
Response to Original message
10. This was a deeply religious man
a devout man who apparently thought that it was ethical to fix elections and destroy emails for the Republican Party.

this was a man who presented himself as someone whose religious beliefs informed his view of life and death.

Out of respect for his religious beliefs—and his children—the tower reported that his last words were, “Oh, God!” In fact, he cries out, “Oh, fuck!” Then the tape goes dead.

I don't know why he died but it seems that, during his life, he conspired with Karl Rove to deny the American people their right to vote. I'd like Karl to tell us all a little more about that. oh fuck, indeed.

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Sienna86 Donating Member (505 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. It's an interesting thought
Maybe our current President was allowed to win (electronically) in 2008 because the economy was tanking and they preferred the "blame" be on Democratic shoulders.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
12. "...evidence has recently emerged that suggests the Ohio vote may have been hacked,...
Edited on Sat Feb-13-10 08:35 AM by Raster

...and that Connell was involved."
Duh!


And the oh-so-convenient "small plane crash" strikes again.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
13. So let's say he was suspected of terrorism. The definition is very loose.
Couldnt the President authorize his killing? Would that be murder?
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
15. Kick and rec!
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
16. This is really no different than Osama Bin Laden getting 19 religious zealots
to blow up airplanes. BushCo used Connell to hack the vote and then whacked him after he was no longer useful. It seems obvious that Connell was persuaded to hack the vote using his views on religion and abortion. They probably told him that his actions would save tens of thousands of "babies".

I have no doubt that Connell was probably marked for death immediately after, if not before, the 2004 election. The decision to whack Connell was no more difficult for BushCo than deciding what to have for breakfast. Connell might have been a brilliant IT guy, but he was supremely stupid about the ways of criminal enterprises like BushCo.

I would even go further and offer that BushCo would have had to have made certain that Connell did not have information at his home that would reveal the vote rigging scheme.
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ThomThom Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. as I remember he was about to testify to vote rigging
I believe he had already given a statement that has been suppressed
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. 10's of thousands of babies saved to become Cannon Fodder in needless wars for profit.. to be
aborted later in Iraq and Afghanistan..
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
18. It's the line that's edited out that's often the most telling . . .
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20081223X12815&key=1



NTSB Identification: CEN09FA099
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Friday, December 19, 2008 in North Canton, OH
Probable Cause Approval Date: 1/28/2010
Aircraft: PIPER PA-32R, registration: N9299N
Injuries: 1 Fatal.

The pilot obtained a weather briefing prior to the flight to Akron-Canton Regional Airport (CAK), Ohio, from College Park, Maryland. During the briefing, the pilot proposed a route of flight at an altitude of 6,000 feet. The briefer told the pilot that the freezing level at CAK at the time of the briefing was about 3,000 to 4,000 feet, but that the it may drop to the surface as the day progressed. The pilot indicated at the beginning of the 20-minute briefing that he was aware of the hazardous weather conditions and he expressed concern about them, but he decided to depart to CAK shortly after he received the briefing.

At the time of the accident, weather observations at CAK indicated broken clouds at 500 feet above ground level (agl), and overcast skies at 100 feet agl. Meteorological analysis showed a high likelihood of encountering supercooled large droplet (SLD) icing in the area. General aviation pilots operating into and out of CAK surrounding the time of the accident all reported icing conditions, with most of the icing occurring between 3,000 to 3,500 feet. The reports also indicated freezing rain. Three of the pilots reported a rapid accumulation of between 1 and 2 inches of ice within a 15-minute period prior to and after the accident. One pilot reported that he required a significant amount of engine power to maintain airspeed and had a hard landing due to ice accumulation on his airplane.

As the accident airplane approached CAK, the local air traffic controller (ATC) issued the pilot a vector to the instrument landing system (ILS) localizer course about two miles from the runway’s ILS outer marker. The controller advised the pilot to maintain 3,200 feet until established on the approach, and that the airplane was cleared for the approach. The pilot acknowledged and asked if there were any pilot reports of icing below 6,000 feet in the area. The controller responded that there were no reports of icing at that time, but asked the pilot to advise if he encountered any. The pilot did not report icing conditions.

The pilot made a gradual left turn to intercept the localizer, and then leveled out near the approach course heading. Although left of the localizer course, he began descending on the approach and stabilized the airplane at an airspeed of just over 100 knots. The controller told the pilot that he was left of the approach course centerline. The pilot acknowledged and reported that he was "correcting." Recorded radar track information showed that the pilot did not correct to the right, but continued to fly a course to the left of, and almost parallel to, the approach course centerline.

The controller then told the pilot that he was "well left" of the approach course. The airplane briefly turned right toward the approach course centerline, but seconds later, the airplane rolled into about a 30-degree left bank, and began turning away from the approach course centerline. While at 2,800 feet, the pilot requested clearance to perform a nonstandard 360-degree turn while about 2-1/2 miles northeast of the airport in order to reestablish the airplane on the approach course (the pilot had commenced the turn before hearing back from the controller). The controller responded that he was unable to approve the pilot's request.

The controller then instructed the pilot to climb and maintain 3,000 feet. The airplane's left bank gradually increased to about 40 degrees at that time. The controller asked the pilot for his present heading and the pilot responded "due north and climbing." The airplane began to climb while remaining in a 30 to 40-degree left bank. The controller instructed the pilot to climb without delay. Pitch increased above 20 degrees with the airplane still in a 30-degree left bank, and with airspeed significantly decreasing. Shortly thereafter, the airplane entered a spiral-like dive as the pilot declared an emergency. The controller advised the pilot to “…maintain altitude. The airport is two miles west of you," but the pilot did not respond and there was no further contact with the airplane. During these last radio transmissions, the airplane was in a continuous left turn with decreasing radius until it abruptly dropped off the radar.

A ground witness saw two bright lights coming almost nose first toward the ground with the engine “roaring.” The airplane impacted the ground in a nose-down and left-wing-low attitude. Postaccident examination of the airplane revealed no anomalies that would have precluded normal operation. An NTSB sound spectrum study of digital audio recording of ATC communications indicated normal engine operation.

Analysis of recorded radar data indicates that the airspeed, roll, and initiation of a climb brought the airplane close to an aerodynamic stall as it was maneuvering in a steep turn following the controller's instruction of "no delay" and the pilot's declaration of an emergency. The airplane subsequently stalled and rapidly descended to the ground. The characteristics of the descent are consistent with an abrupt stall during maneuvering that was likely aggravated by ice accumulation on the airplane.

Risk factors for spatial disorientation were present at the time of the accident, including dark night instrument meteorological conditions and maneuvering flight. The airplane's sequence of sustained turns was conducive to spatial disorientation, specifically a class of vestibular illusions known as somatogyral illusions. Furthermore, the pilot's report that he was headed "due north and climbing" as he placed the airplane into a turn of decreasing radius was inconsistent with his having an accurate awareness of the airplane's orientation.

The pilot reported a total flight time of 510 hours on his October 2007 FAA medical application, of which 50 hours were accumulated in the past 6 months. The pilot's total and recent instrument flight experience could not be determined. The pilot had a history of seasonal allergies, treated with prescription medication that was reported to the FAA. While an over-the-counter sedating antihistamine was found in the pilot's blood during postaccident toxicology testing, the investigation was unable to determine if the pilot was adversely affected by impairment.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The pilot’s inappropriate control inputs as a result of spatial disorientation, which led to an aerodynamic stall and loss of control. Contributing to the accident were the pilot's decision to conduct flight into known icing conditions, ice accumulation that reduced the airplane's aerodynamic performance, and the pilot's failure to initially intercept and establish the airplane on the proper approach course.

Full narrative available

Index for Dec2008 | Index of months


Maybe, not so mysterious.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Are you pointing out the conflicting info?
"The pilot acknowledged and asked if there were any pilot reports of icing below 6,000 feet in the area. The controller responded that there were no reports of icing at that time, but asked the pilot to advise if he encountered any. The pilot did not report icing conditions."

VS

"Contributing to the accident were the pilot's decision to conduct flight into known icing conditions, ice accumulation that reduced the airplane's aerodynamic performance,
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. That does stand out for me.
Edited on Sat Feb-13-10 11:23 AM by leveymg
The report clearly states that ice accumulation was a contributing factor.

Also, his decision to fly in weather that was so obviously conducive to icing, and a sharp banking and climbing maneuver that predictably would have risked a stall, is curious. He was obviously aware of the risks of icing and a low-altitude stall, but seemed to ignore them. Not the sort of thing that a sane, experienced pilot would do.
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. He was told to fly into the ice zone by the controller who said there was no ice, yes? Or am I
missing something? 
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. You can usually see (and feel) ice build up on the leading edge of the wing, and many Piper
Edited on Sat Feb-13-10 09:32 PM by leveymg
Saratogas have anti-ice boots or TKS (anti-freeze) fluid spray. The rule is: visible ice on the windshield usually means ice on the wings. The nose or tail may drop, depending upon whether the ice is most prevalent on the wings or the tail surface. The initial stall would likely dip one wing, knocking the plane off course. Ice can also build up on the prop, making that less efficient, with a loss of available thrust making recovery all the less likely. If the pilot suspects an ice problem on the wings, all he usually need do is flick a switch, but that is no guarantee that the plane won't stall if sufficient airspeed isn't maintained. Icing problems can mount up.

The weather report indicates that whatever the icing problem on December 19 was, it wasn't extreme, no snow or ice storm; that would probably rule out a tail stall or serious loss of prop efficiency.

I haven't seen whether that particular plane was so equipped with TKS or boots (blow-up rubber balloons mounted on the front of the wings) were deployed. It's the sort of thing that should be in the full crash report.

If there were no TKS or boots, inaccurate information about icing might be an issue. But, a properly trained, rational pilot would avoid any maneuver, if in doubt, such as a rapid banking turn on approach, that might stall the aircraft. That rapid banking turn bothers me. It would be like throwing a car on ice into a sideways skid on a crowded expressway. Loads of fun, but very dangerous. Why would he do that, when all he had to do was come around again? If his brain was still processing a stall due to icing, he might not have reported it or had the wit to put the plane into a shallow dive and come around at high speed at low altitude. Flying a small plane outside your abilities can have strange effects on behavior. Maybe, the pressure was getting to him, or else something else would account for control input of such a risky maneuver. . .
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James48 Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. no deice boots or TKS
This aircraft had no deice boots or TKS system.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Please provide a link for that. Thanks.
Do you have the full crash report? If so, and it isn't on-line, please give the page number.
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James48 Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. See attached
Note: If you want to see the panel configuration of that model year PA32-301T, here is a picture- not of the crash plane, but of one very similar configuration:



Full NTSB report here:

Summary: http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20081223X12815&key=1

Factual report: http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20081223X12815&ntsbno=CEN09FA099&akey=1


For searching the NTSB database, start here:
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp#query_start

enter " 9299N " in the Registration field, and press query.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Looks similar to others. What page is the reference to icing boots/TKS?
Why did they refer to this as a "high-performance aircraft" when it has a airspeed indicator that tops out at 220 knots? Compared to what, a Cessna 150?

What systems are fly-by-wire on this type?
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James48 Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Answers
The FAA defines a "high performance Aircraft" under 14 CFR part 61.31(f) as "an airplane with an engine of more than 200 horsepower". This engine was more than that. It's a technical benchmark related to required pilot training. You need more training if you fly a high-performance aircraft.

What systems are "fly by wire"? None.

Fly-by-wire means aileron or elevator control systems controlled by electronic circuits rather than steel cables. This aircraft is controlled by cables, not electronics. It's originally a 1960's airframe design. Most of those portions- i.e. the control systems, are still that technology.

Note- generally this aircraft has a pretty good safety record- there are no accident caused by control system failures.

Finally- reference icing boots or TKS- I reviewed the file of the plane. It didn't come with any when new, and nothing in the records indicated installation of any deicing equipment later. If if had, there would have been a record in the file called a "337, Record of Major Change or Alteration" recording it. This aircraft had no 337's relating to deicing equipment.

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James48 Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. P.S.
The NTSB report contains things that they could not possibly know as "fact".

See my comment here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=517593&mesg_id=517830
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. There's a major discrepency between the initial and final reports re: other pilots reporting icing
Edited on Sat Feb-13-10 10:26 PM by leveymg
Recall, the initial accident report has the tower telling him there were no reports by other aircraft of icing. However, the later more complete report you linked includes the following:

Pilot Statements Regarding Icing.

Several pilots who operated into or out of KCAK on the day of the accident provided statements regarding the weather conditions they encountered. Their statements are summarized as follows:

Report at 1312 – A pilot who departed in a single-engine turboprop Cessna 208B Caravan stated that he entered the clouds at 400 feet, and started picking up light, mostly clear ice, in the clouds, with tops at 6,100 feet. At 8,000 feet, he noted the temperature of 4 degrees C.

Report at 1741 – A pilot flying a multiengine Beechcraft Baron (BE58) attempted a localizer approach to runway 25 at KAKR. The pilot went missed approach and executed an ILS runway 23 approach at KCAK. He indicated that, at 7,000 feet the temperature was between 5 to 7 degrees C, with cloud tops at 6,500 feet. The aircraft began to accumulate ice entering the clouds from 6,500 feet to the surface, and he also reported encountering rain in the clouds. At 3,000 feet, the temperature was near freezing and he encountered mixed icing, which accumulated very rapidly with 1 1/4 inches of ice on portions of the wing. He reported that he broke out of the clouds between 400 and 500 feet agl.

Report at 1808 – A pilot flying a Cessna Citation business jet (C550) flew the approach immediately after the accident airplane. The flight diverted from Wayne County Airport (KBJJ) located approximately 20 miles east of KCAK due to low ceilings and visibility in fog. The pilot indicated the cloud tops were about 6,000 feet, and he encountered icing conditions at approximately 3,000 feet down to 400 to 500 fee. He stated that he actuated the deicing boots twice on approach. He estimated accumulating up to 1 inch of ice on the approach, and indicated a ceiling of 200 feet agl and visibility 1/2 mile.

Report at time unknown on the evening of the accident - A pilot flying a multiengine Cessna Golden Eagle (C421) near the time of the accident reported cloud tops near 5,000 feet. The pilot stated that he descended into a solid layer of clouds and began encountering icing “right away” below 3,500 feet, with moderate rime type ice. They had difficulty with the landing gear and had increased power setting to maintain their airspeed, which they attributed to the icing conditions. The aircraft landed hard due to the amount of ice accumulation on the airplane. The pilot estimated 1 to 2 inches of ice on the unprotected areas of the airplane, and “a lot” of ice on the unprotected areas of the windshield. He indicated the ceiling heights as 500 to 600 feet and visibility 2 to 3 miles, when he landed, and he provided an icing report to the air traffic control tower’s ground controller


Why would the tower tell Connell there had been no icing reports? Very intriguing. I would go back and re-interview the control tower personnel and/or tapes. It may be that the earlier flights didn't report the problem.

Compare with the following:

As the accident airplane approached CAK, the local air traffic controller (ATC) issued the pilot a vector to the instrument landing system (ILS) localizer course about two miles from the runway’s ILS outer marker. The controller advised the pilot to maintain 3,200 feet until established on the approach, and that the airplane was cleared for the approach. The pilot acknowledged and asked if there were any pilot reports of icing below 6,000 feet in the area. The controller responded that there were no reports of icing at that time, but asked the pilot to advise if he encountered any. The pilot did not report icing conditions.

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James48 Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Conflicts
Edited on Sat Feb-13-10 11:38 PM by James48
Why did the tower tell him no reports of icing?

Because the report at 1741 is a report of KARK (Akron, OH) is located 7 miles S- and the pilot did a missed approach, and then went to KCAK. The BE-58 pilot didn't tell the tower at KCAK of the icing at the time. That was at 1741 hours.

The tower can only discuss icing they know about. As in this report, the tower controller asked the pilot in the accident aircraft to report any icing he encountered- but in this case, the accident pilot didn't report it either.

I don't see that as unplauseable, or even suspect.

The report at 1741 was 12 minutes before the crash time. That airplane (the BE-58) landed 12 minutes before the accident airplane crashed. I would bet that they only reason they had that data is that the probably went back and asked the pilot of the BE-58 airplane later if he encountered ice that day. There is nothing in the record to show that the BE58 pilot said anything to anybody about ice the day of the crash.

As for the report at 1808- that was after the crash, and not applicable to the tower controller's conversation. If anything, the tower controller probably should have told the 1808 flight that the plane before him at 1753 crashed and to be careful and watch for possible ice. That 1808 flight was a Citation jet- a bigger airplane, and with icing gear.

The icing report from the Cessna 421 was not stated with a time. It would likely be after the crash period. Also a bigger plane, and with deicing gear (boots). The pilot of the 421 stated he activated boots on approach. That was passed on to the controller, but there is no time in this report saying when it was passed on. I would presume it was later in the day/evening.

I don't see major inconsistencies with the icing reports. Again, the only thing that sticks out at me- big time, is the report saying the accident airplane was banking. there is NOTHING that could possibly show that as fact. Not a thing.
See my previous comment about the banking issue.



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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-14-10 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. As I said, it may be the icing reports came later. Also, re banking angles:
Edited on Sun Feb-14-10 10:56 AM by leveymg
That was probably extrapolated from the ground radar plots of the position of the aircraft. In order to move a certain distance up-down, side-to-side, at a given rate the aircraft would most likely have to bank. Yes, side-to-side could be done by rudder side-slip alone instead of ailerons, but most pilots would bank to try to quickly move the plane toward the center of the ILS. As for the reported degree of upward pitch, that would be extrapolated from altitude gain that would be on the ground radar plot along with engine rpm that was determined from the radio recordings. There does not seem to have been much of a gain in engine speed between the two transmissions, so any altitude gain would be from deflection of the elevators.

You have more hours than I, no doubt. Wouldn't any pilot routinely report icing upon landing - isn't that SOP? Why didn't the earlier arrivals do that - don't towers communicate icing reports received to other nearby airports?
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James48 Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-14-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. No
That was probably extrapolated from the ground radar plots of the position of the aircraft. In order to move a certain distance up-down, side-to-side, at a given rate the aircraft would most likely have to bank. Yes, side-to-side could be done by rudder side-slip alone instead of ailerons, but most pilots would bank to try to quickly move the plane toward the center of the ILS. As for the reported degree of upward pitch, that would be extrapolated from altitude gain that would be on the ground radar plot along with engine rpm that was determined from the radio recordings. There does not seem to have been much of a gain in engine speed between the two transmissions, so any altitude gain would be from deflection of the elevators.

BUNK.

You can't get that accurate from ground radar extrapolations. NO ONE does that kind of bank extrapolation from conventional radar signals. Radar returns may be as much at 30 seconds apart from the same antenna. You just don't do that. As for pitch information- again- BUNK. You are telling me that are establishing pitch from the sound carried over a VHF radio background noise, and radar returns? No way.

I could go into a 20 degree left bank, with the engine setting unchanged (so the sound would be constant), and I could fly level, adjusting rudder. I could keep a straight course. And no one on the ground could tell if I was in a bank, or flying level.

Wouldn't any pilot routinely report icing upon landing - isn't that SOP?


Nope. No regulation requires that. If it were me, first, I would be grateful that I got down safely. Next, I would call and close a flight plan. Next, I would figure out how I was going to get home, because I just landed at an alternate airport, not the place I was flying to. That may require several phone calls to get mom to come pick me up 20 miles away. Next, I would figure out what I was going to do with the airplane for the night- in a hanger? Or tie it down outside? Next, I would probably go inside and talk to the FBO guys.

Then, and only then, I MIGHT think about calling FSS and telling them about icing. I would NEVER call the tower where I just landed- I dread hearing the words "When able, call the tower". That has a whole different meaning...
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-14-10 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. FAA ATC radar sweeps every 4.7 seconds, weather radar 6-12 secs, approach radar typically 4 secs.
Edited on Mon Feb-15-10 12:20 AM by leveymg
What makes you say the sweep on the approach radar is typically as long as 30 seconds? Do you know what approach radar system is used at that airport? Have you ever worked in ATC or NTSB accident investigation? The information I found indicates aviation radar sweep period is anywhere from 4 to 12 seconds, which is rapid enough to use the traces to plot the rate of descent and lateral movement toward or away from the center of the glide path. Since the accident investigators had that data, it does not seem as difficult to extrapolate the angle of bank during a turn as you claim. Here's what I found during a quick search:

The Radtec 43/250 radar antenna can be used operationally with a rotation rate of 6 rpm, resulting in one 360° sweep every 10 s. ...
science.ksc.nasa.gov/amu/final-reports/radar-scan-strategies-radtec.pdf

A typical Approach Radar might rotate at about 15 RPM or one sweep every 4 seconds. . .
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-300889.html - Cached

At the link above there's a discussion of how Air Traffic Controllers calculate aircraft rates of turn on final approach based upon a series of radar plots. It used to be done with a stopwatch. The angle of bank for a standard "rate one turn" (a 180 degree turn in one minute) is calculated according to a simplified formula:

True Air Speed (TAS)/10 + 7 is pretty accurate, up to 25 degrees bank (normally the limit). See, http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-242305.html

If Connell's airspeed was 120 mph at that point, a standard turn would result in a 19 degree bank. A 30 degree bank would be an extremely violent maneuver on approach, significantly exceeding normal limits for safe flight.

I'm not so sure, now, that you know as much as you seem to think you do, particularly about how much data ATC knows about rates of turn (and by extension, angle of bank) and how FAA reconstructs such an air incident. But, I agree that the 30 degree bank angle stated by the NTSB seems extremely peculiar.

Okay, James, here's the bottom-line question. What do you think happened?
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BradBlog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-14-10 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #53
61. JAMES - Please contact me...
James -

Tried to leave you a note via Private Message here, but you account doesn't allow it "yet" for whatever reason.

Would you mind dropping me a line via email? My address can be found under the "postage mark" on the top right of http://BradBlog.com

Thanks!

Brad
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James48 Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-14-10 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. reply
no thanks. Not interested in talking to bloggers.
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Sounds almost like what happened to Wellstone... off course on approach...no correction made etc
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Scruffy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. From my piloting experience
I would have to say that the FAA report is reasonable as far as it goes and the information they have. He was a low time pilot flying in bad weather. But as any pilot knows the FAA always finds "pilot error" as the cause of any crash. This does not rule out possible sabotage as a factor, but if it was its hard to prove unless someone talks. What makes me suspicious is that he failed to center on the ILS. This could have been an avionics problem and a burning wreck leaves no evidence.
Wellstone's plane burned so completely it was suspicious to me.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
23. GOP consultant killed in plane crash was warned of sabotage: report
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2008/Killed_GOP_pilot_suspected_plane_had_1222.html


The Republican consultant accused of involvement in alleged vote-rigging in Ohio in 2004 was warned that his plane might be sabotaged before his death in a crash Friday night, according to a Cleveland CBS affiliate.
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
30. so we have Michael Connell
and Paul Welstone
and Gary Webb
and JFK jr
and Hunter Thompson....Hmmm

unexpected suicides and airplane crashes?

all investigating crimes surrounding the bush crime family...


yeah ..I'm stupid
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Here is a list of plane crashes that had some connections to the BFEE
Found on the internets you know those series of tubes! Yes I know it will look like tin foil stuff but tin foil happens!


I agree on JFK Jr
http://www.john-f-kennedy-jr.com/murdered.htm

Paul Wellstone
Senator Wellstone, his wife Sheila, daughter Marcia, three of his staff and both pilots were killed when his small plane went down in Evelyth, Minnesota, on October 27, 2002. He was a vocal opponent of the Bush administration and the only real progressive in the Senate.




Jake Horton
He was the senior vice-president of Gulf Power, a subsidiary of Southern Company, a cohort of Enron in the energy industry, and a major contributer to the Bush agenda. According to reporter Gregory Palast, Horton knew of the company's appalling accounting practices, and "... had no doubt about its illegal campaign contributions to Florida politicans - he'd made the payments himself. In April of 1989 Horton decided to come clean with state officials, and reserved the company jet to go confront company officials. Ten minutes after takeoff the jet exploded.

Senator Henry John Heinz III
He chaired the three-man presidential review board that probed the Iran-contra affair. He died in a plane crash in April 1991.




Salem bin Laden
In 1979 Bush business Arbusto Energy obtained financing from James Bath, a close family friend. Bath had extensive ties to BCCI and the bin Laden family. Bath was the sole U.S. business representative for Salem bin Laden, the brother of Osama bin Laden. It is well known in certain circles that the Arbusto money came straight from Salem bin Laden, although Bush denies it. Salem bin Laden died when for no apparent reason, he flew his airplane into power lines where it became entangled, and fell 150 feet to the ground. "He was a very experienced pilot. He was a good pilot. We just can't understand why he decided to go right instead of left," recalled airstrip owner Earl May field.

Governor Mel Carnahan
In the midst of a heated race for the Senate against John Ashcroft, the Governor died in a plane crash on October 16, 2000. His death affected Democrats in two ways - it would hurt their chances of seizing control of the US Senate, and it would strongly impact the Presidential race between Al Gore and George W. Bush.


Senator John Tower
He was appointed by the Reagan/Bush Administration to chair the bipartisan committee to investigate the Iran/Contra scandals. He directed the Tower Report and had all the Iran Contra documents that told the real story. He was killed in an airplane crash later in Georgia in 1991. Also killed was his daughter, Marian.



Amaro da Costa
Then Defense Minister of Portugal, he died in a plane crash in Lisbon in 1980. He was planning to disclose that he had discovered documents that showed Portugese officers were helping to traffic arms to Iran.

Sa Carneiro
Former Prime Minister of Portugal and a very popular leader, he died in the same plane crash that killed Amaro da Costa.


Charles M. McKee and Matthew Gannon
Charles M. McKee, ostensibly a military attache for the CIA in Beirut, Matthew Gannon, CIA Deputy Station Chief in Beirut, and three others were on board Pan Am Flight 103, which exploded over Lockerbie, Scotland. They were part of a counterterrorist team in Beirut investigating the possible rescue of 9 American hostages in Lebanon. The McKee team uncovered evidence that a rogue CIA unit called COREA, based in Wiesbaden, was doing business with a man called Monzer Al-Kassar, a Syrian arms dealer and drug trafficker. Al-Kassar was part of the covert network run by U.S. Lieut. Colonel Oliver North. Outraged that the COREA unit in Wiesbaden was doing business with a Syrian who had close terrorist connections and might endanger their chances of rescuing the hostages, the McKee team decided to fly back to Virginia unannounced and expose the COREA unit's secret deal with al-Kassar. They never got there. "For three years, I've had a feeling that if Chuck hadn't been on that plane, it wouldn't have been bombed," said Beulah McKee, 75, Charles McKee's mother, to Time Magazine. Four months after her son was killed for his efforts to expose the CIA, Mrs. McKee received a sympathy letter from George H. W. Bush. Mrs. McKee has never been satisfied with the government's version of events.

Amiram Nir
He was a former Israeli agent who was in Jerusalem with George Bush during Iran Contra. He went under the assumed name of Pat Weber. Nir was scheduled to testify to the Senate subcommittee and it was feared he would reveal the truth. He perished when his aircraft was shot down with missiles from the helicopter of a man called Gene Tatum, 25-year CIA deep cover agent.

Mohammed Zia al-huk
Dictator of Pakistan, and knew all about Iran/Contra, the training, funding, and arming of narco-terrorists like Osama bin Laden. In August 1988, the same day George Bush got the Republican nomination, his plane crashed into the ground with all engines running. The Pakistanis kept the bodies around (in violation of Islamic custom) for weeks, awaiting US experts. They showed up three weeks later and never checked the bodies.


Hale Boggs, Nick Begich and Don Jonz
Boggs sat on the Warren Commission, which concluded that President Kennedy was slain by a lone assassin. Later, in 1971 and '72, Boggs said that the Warren Report was false and that J. Edgar Hoover's FBI not only helped cover up the JFK murder but blackmailed Congress with massive wire-tapping and spying. He named Warren Commission staff member Arlen Specter as a major cover-up artist. Congressman Boggs' plane disappeared on a flight to Alaska in 1972. The press, the military, and the CIA publicly proclaimed the plane could not be located. Investigators later said that was a lie, that the plane had been found. On the plane were Nick Begich, a very popular Democratic Congressman, and Don Jonz, an aide to Mr. Boggs. All were killed.

Dorothy Hunt, Michelle Clark and George Collins
In December 1972, a United Airlines flight carrying Mrs. Dorothy Hunt, CIA operative and wife of E. Howard Hunt, (CIA operative and suspect in the Kennedy assassination) crashed. Believed to be carrying $25,000 in "hush money", she died in this crash, along with reporter Michelle Clark and Chicago Congressman George Collins. Charles Colson has publicly admitted he believes Dorothy Hunt was murdered.

Gary Caradori
He was investigating Lawrence E. King, Jr., a very influential black Republican who was also a friend of George H.W. Bush. King was director of the Franklin Community Credit Union in Omaha, Nebraska, and was suspected of embezzling $40 million. The Nebraska Senate questioned child prostitutes, who accused King of running a child prostitution ring. One of these children said that she saw George H.W. Bush at one of King's parties. On July 11, 1990, Gary Caradori was killed along with his 6-year old son in the crash of his small plane, after a mid-air explosion, the cause of which was never discovered. He had told friends repeatedly in the weeks before his death that he was afraid his plane would be sabotaged.

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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. wow....if you hang out with the Bushes..stay out of planes...
Edited on Sat Feb-13-10 08:21 PM by winyanstaz
The body piles is actually many times higher if you count all the other convenient deaths connected to the Bushes...
Like these:

http://www.thiscantbehappening.net/?q=node/69

or these:
http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg34287.html

and then this site has a lot of information as well:

http://www.globalcomplexity.org/Death%20by%20Association.htm
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. thanks for the info...
Gary Webb investigating the drug trafficking in South America and after some strange occurances and being followed told his friend..
If I show up dead...it is not a suicide

JFK stating in an interview he needed to run for office to investigate who killed his father

Hunter Thompson making statements about the "demolition" of the twin towers and was also investigating a story about a male prostitution ring in the White house dating back to Henry Kissinger.







this makes me sick to my stomach :puke:
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. To be fair, Hunter wasn't all that unexpected.
But I do think you have a point on all of the others.
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Hunter was a little crazy ...but not suicidal...not depressed
and friends don't believe it

..just saying
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Some friends do believe it.
I've read interviews, seen the movie and you could say I'm quite a fan. (Check my sig.)

Hunter actually talked about going out that way.

Doesn't mean I don't miss him in these times.
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. me too and I understand and respect your conclusion
but I believe he was on to some pretty heavy stuff

and I never put anything past these monsters
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
31. and the media will never touch this story
:grr:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
37. Add this to the list of BFEE suspicious deaths.
:tinfoilhat:
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-14-10 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
56. The Bush body count is vast
someone should write a book, but would then run the risk of ending up like Hatfield.
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-14-10 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Russ Baker wrote an excellent book but only hints at the murders. But he does a good job of
connecting Poppy with the hit on JFK
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-14-10 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
59. People might want to consider comments on this link. It supports this post.
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-14-10 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Thanks I always love to find new ways of promoting Russ's book. n/t
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