Liebermann endorses US Torture on CNN

[Chicago Democrat]

I didn't see it but Juan Cole did....(snip)

Disturbingly, Sen. Joe Lieberman endorsed torture as an information extraction mechanism on Wolf Blitzer's show on Sunday. He gave the tired example of whether, if one of the 9/11 hijackers had fallen into US hands, one wouldn't have wanted all means used to extract information about the coming attack? There are several things wrong with this stance. First, torture does not work, and there is no evidence that it worked at Abu Ghuraib. Second, the argument that the ends justify the means always turns human beings into monsters. If something is morally wrong, you don't do it if you hope to remain a moral society. Society would be a lot safer if all known heads of identified criminal organizations were taken out by police snipers. We don't do that. Why? Sen. Lieberman should think about it. That way lies a descent into barbarity before which September 11 would pale.

We Americans either stand for something or we don't. What I always assumed we stood for was the US Constitution. Our State Department annually rates other countries by how well their record stacks up against the US Bill of Rights. That custom seems an implicit admission that we hold these rights and values to be universal, not limited to US soil or only a privilege of citizens. And here is what the founding generation of Americans thought about Abu Ghuraib and torture:



Article 10:
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

rest at...

http://juancole.com/

[Wickerman]

1. He should be asked to leave the Dem party

that is disgusting.

[Robbien]

4. Never mind the dem party, he should turn in his human being card

A person harming another person is not something a rational thinking human being should applaud.

[keta11]

2. For warmongers - when in doubt, bring out

9-11!!!

"Sen. Joe Lieberman endorsed torture as an information extraction mechanism on Wolf Blitzer's show on Sunday. He gave the tired example of whether, if one of the 9/11 hijackers had fallen into US hands,..."

[napi21]

3. Very dumb reason!

Unless I'm completely missing the story here, we are dealing with people who are willing to die for their cause. If that's true, why in the world would they give up information to xompromise their commrads, friends, or whatever you want to call them?

Lieberman and thise who agree with him seem to be still looking at this situation as they did the Cold War. We need a mindset change. Religious zellots believe they are succeeding when they suffer for their cause.

Torture or abuse let them accomplish their cause.

[Disturbed]

6. The moral high ground?

This guy and many others in Congress are Neo Fascists.
Until the Democratic Party cleans out the scum in their fish
tank, they will not garner respect. It is way past time that
members of the Democratic Party demand a clean up of the scum in their party. Most Democrats are hypocrites that talk the talk but
don't walk the walk. They are still gourging themselves at the Corp. troughs.

[daa]

5. Zell Leiberman nt

[jeff30997]

7. Wow!

I knew that Leiberman was a conservative,but i never realized that he was such a crackpot!!!:thumbsdown:

[ColdWarZoomie]

8. Wrong Argument

I really do dislike Lieberman. No wonder he sank so fast in the primaries. And his most recent "arguments" are ridiculous.

First questions we should ever ask ourselves are:

1. Is our behavior within the rule of law as framed by our own Constitutional principles?

2. Is our behavior in accordance with what our Founding Fathers envisioned our government to be?

Pretty simple to see how invading a foreign country and torturing innocent civilians there is just plain WRONG.

[Th1onein]

9. Liebermann is not a Democrat. He's a jerk.

[Martin Eden]

10. Immoral and Impractical

I understand the moral argument:

Your captive is a terrorist whose organization is doing everything in their power to destroy you, your family, and your country. This terrorist has information about an impending attack that will kill innocent civilians. Extracting this information supercedes any considerations for the human rights of the captive, who is perfectly willing to destroy himself in order to destroy you. Anything done to this captive to prevent the impending attack is justified.

I agree in principle that the application of torture in this situation is justified.

The problem is that this justification is inevitably applied in situations in which the interrogators do know know whether the captive is in possession of such vital information. This leads to the torture of captives who cannot yield useful information and who may in fact be innocent of any crime.

This is not justified. It is immoral because it takes us down a slippery slope in which torture becomes standard operating procedure. The torture of innocent human beings is immoral even in the context of preventing terrorism, because in the end it is self defeating.

This, in essence, is what has occurred at Abu Ghraib. The images of that torture could not be more self defeating. The result is that terrorism will be multiplied, not defeated.

It is impractical. Hardcore military and intelligence professionals will dismiss moral arguments on the basis that we have no idea of the harsh realities of national security. But they should understand practical results.

Moral arguments cannot be totally dismissed because we live in a world populated by moral beings, whose violent actions often are based on moral judgements (however misguided they may be). When we lose the moral high ground -- which we have done at Abu Ghraib (if not before) -- we have lost a position as strategic as any battlefield high ground.

Therefore, the torture at Abu Ghraib is indefensible both in terms of morality and practicality. In the so-called "war against terror," the two are inextricably linked in achieving security and peace for ourselves and the people we claim to be helping.

Politicians like Joe Lieberman who defend torture, especially in the context of Abu Ghraib, knowingly or unknowingly are leading our country toward an immoral, impractical, and self destructive end.

[LibertyorDeath]

11. Disgusting

[Eric J in MN]

12. Lieberman seems to saying the US government should toruture

Lieberman seems to saying the US government should torture not only people arrested abroad, but also people arrested in the US, since the hijackers were living here in the months before 9/11/2001.