Joe Biden: Why the Senate Should Vote Yes on Health Care.

[elleng]

If the bill passes the Senate this week, there will be more chances to make changes to it before it becomes law. But if the bill dies this week, there is no second chance to vote yes. What those who care about health insurance reform need to realize is that unless we get 60 votes now, there will be no health care reform at all. Not this year, not in this Congress — and maybe not for another generation.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/20/opinion/20biden.html?ref=opinion

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Joe is very persuasive.

I'm inclined to believe him...

[endless october]

2. had me up until the "next generation" talking point.

it would be nice if they would stop insulting us with talking points. i've heard the "accept health insurance with no public option or it will take a generation" BS from several politicians.

don't get me wrong. i like Biden a lot. but don't tell me that the shit sandwich is a cheeseburger, and please don't give me the "generation" talking point as an excuse.

[elleng]

7. You prefer shit for 20 years then, I guess.

How long since Medicare? How long for Medicaid? Figure out this 'dysfunctional' system; Joe's done it.

[endless october]

20. "figured it out?"

that's good news, because all i see is an insurance company profit act being pushed through with all of the good parts gone.

shit, it would take at least a generation just to fix this "reform" if it passes.

"just passing something" isn't what we want to be doing with something this important.

[elleng]

31. Its certainly not what we WANT to be doing,

but that's how this broken system works, it appears.

[lapfog_1]

3. Vice President Biden is either being disingenuous

or he is ignorant of the facts.

The Senate bill, as marked up by the manager's amendment, is pretty much what HAS to come out of conference. Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman have both made remarks to that effect. No PO, no expansion of Medicare, and no change to the adopted abortion language and no other substantive changes.

After conference, the joint resolution will come back to the Senate, where it will face yet another filibuster, which will require 60 votes to break. Ben Nelson knows this, which is why he was confident in making his demand known that he doesn't want to see any changes other than strictly cosmetic to this bill. Harry Reid knows this too, which is why the conference attendees will have their marching orders. No changes. The House will be forced to go along because the President and the Speaker both want this done, one does not cross the President (or the Speaker) lightly.

After the cloture vote, some members of the Democratic caucus may vote against it. Namely Bernie Sanders, possibly a blue dog or two (I thinking Joe Lieberman). However these no votes will be carefully tallied before the vote and the Senate Majority Leader will apply the needed pressure to keep the margin of victory to at least 56 - 44 or maybe 55 - 45.

And after that vote, plus an up or down vote in the House (which it appears will get at least Anthony Wieners vote, if not the entire progressive caucus) then the President can sign this polished turd in the punchbowl.

Oh joy.

But the bill will not change again in any substantive way from the current manager markup.

I have no idea why Joe would put out such a statement, unless he really believes that we ARE that naive.

[elleng]

9. I'm sure he doesn't think we're naive.

Write to him, please.

[lapfog_1]

14. Then he is ignorant of stmts made by both Joe Lieberman

and Ben Nelson today.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/19/ben-nelson-press-conferen_n_398092.html

And Joe was my guy in the primary horse race. I don't like to think of him as not well informed.

[elleng]

15. He IS well informed.

Thats why I suggest you write to him. Don't discard your early impressions.

[ginnyinWI]

26. sorry but I believe Joe is a straight shooter.

This paragraph is the main point:

"The issues in the health reform bill are complicated, but the consequences of failing to pass it are straightforward. Those who would vote no on this bill need to look into the eyes of Americans who don’t have health care now and tell them they’re going to be better off without this bill — better off continuing to live without health coverage. They should explain to all those Americans who are denied coverage because they have pre-existing conditions or whose insurance ran out because of lifetime caps that they don’t need this bill. And they should tell the families who have insurance and the small-business owners who provide it that the relentless rise in their premiums without this bill will somehow make them glad it didn’t pass."

Half a loaf is better than none in this case. Think about how much the right hated the idea of Social Security and Medicare when it was being "born". Now they scream that nobody is to touch it! It will be the same with this legislation: once the people see what it does and doesn't do for them (i.e. death panels), the public will be crying out for more--and the right will have to go along, just like they do now with Social Security and Medicare.

[elleng]

29. Thanks ginny; you're right, imo.

[silverweb]

4. Joe is right.

The current bill is not even close to being the end of this process. It's a start and only a start. Something to build on.

Thank you, Mr. Vice President.

[lapfog_1]

5. Sorry, you are wrong. It's now a done deal.

All the rest will be kabuki theater.

Nelson has said that he will NOT vote for cloture on the bill AFTER it comes back from conference if it is, in any substantive way, different that the bill is right now.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/19/ben-nelson-press-conferen_n_398092.html

operative statement: "Nelson also warned that if in conference with the House the bill is 'materially changed' from what he agreed to he reserves the right to withdraw his support and vote against cloture the next time around."

That's pretty clear, isn't it?

Don't go hitching your ponies to another dream wagon. It ain't happening.

[gateley]

8. It's not a done deal until the deal is done, voted on, signed into law, right? nt

[lapfog_1]

13. Sure, just don't get any hopes up that Public Option will

suddenly reappear.

In fact, now that Reid has all 60 of his plates spinning, I don't think they are going to want to start changing a lot of things and upset the apple cart, do you? (mixed metaphor, but you know what I mean)

[gateley]

24. Well I'm with you there -- i don't think we have a chance of seeing the PO this

time around.

We know there's pressure coming down to Get It Done, so I'm not expecting a miracle, and you have a valid point about the spinning plates and apple cart. :7 Wonder what the house will do when this is presented to them.

But really, we've been up and down and high and low so many times during this agonizing process, that I really think we don't know what the end result will be yet.

[elleng]

10. Was Nelson referring only to his little hitching post?

[lapfog_1]

12. Did you read the Huffpo piece?

here is another line from the same article:

"Nelson noted that he had successfully fought off efforts to include a public option as well as the inclusion of language limiting the availability of abortions."

So, what do you think?

[elleng]

16. I listened to what he said and not what they wrote,

and I think he's basically referring to HIS issues, abortion funding primarily. If they tinker with public option as per the House, I suspect he won't be the only one to think of jumping ship.

So I suspect that there's room for delicate change in conference, as VP Biden has suggested.

[silverweb]

28. And I think you're wrong.

But time will tell, as it always does.

[gateley]

6. I'm inclined to cautiously believe Joe (no surprise). It's one thing for us out

here, as educated or as procedurally savvy we may be to say: If this happens, then that is the result. Washington is more nuanced than that -- and they always seem to take a painfully circuitous route to the destination.

He might be right about the generation thing -- if we lose in 2010 it may be a long time before we're trusted enough to be given another chance.

IMO, natch. :7

[elleng]

11. With you, gateley!

:fistbump:


And how nicely did he handle the Dean kerfuffle!!!

[mbperrin]

23. If this passes as is, by 2012 the public will have a full gut of what it really

is - a trillion dollar giveaway backed by law with no assurance of any healthcare at all. Read your history on what happened to the Republicans in the South after the Civil War. Their betrayal cost them any office at all for 120 years.

This betrayal will cost our party exactly the same and for the same reason - betrayal.

[defendandprotect]

17. Stop responding to fear-tactics . . . we all deserve better than corporate fascism . ..

[elleng]

18. Unfortunately, that's likely to be with us for a LONG time,

but the fear tactics should be ignored.

[defendandprotect]

19. Well, we've known for 40 years that corporations were buying government and

our candidates -- in fact that they were giving us our leaders --

After 40 years, I think it's time to come together and react as if we

understand this reality --

Doing what we've been doing for the past 40 years and expecting something

different to happen is "insanity."

The news from the White House is that we are "irrational," "irrevelant" -- and powerless.

What they really fear is the power of the powerless.

And they sure as hell fear that DEAN has the power to wake up the public!!!

This is an overwhelmingly liberal nation --

Liberals/progressive have to come together as a voting bloc and decide on plan B-- !!

[Bluenorthwest]

21. When Joe Biden speaks, all I can think about is that debate

where he shouted out his agreement with Sarah Palin on equality issues. They both oppose equal rights for all Americans, Biden and Palin.
This bill could have any number of horrors in it that Joe and Sarah would call 'Christian Values'.
His word to me is that of a man with an agenda, and a bigoted view of my family. His word means nothing to me.

[gateley]

25. Biden opposes equal rights for all Americans? I must have missed that.

I've heard a lot of charges thrown at Biden, but never this one.

[elleng]

30. Facts missing here.

I'm certain that Joe Biden has MANY disagreements with Palin on values. Tho I'm not a member and can't speak authoritatively as one as to 'Christian values,' HE's got them and she hasn't.

[Daveparts still]

22. Now, if you'll will just sign here

Then I will go back to Washington and tell the great Father of your Chiefs concerns. While it is true that you are giving up most of your lands you must remember that this is a very good deal for your tribe. You will be given food and education. Each male member of the tribe will be given land to farm. And Congress has granted you money! I will return to Washington and tell them that you say it is not enough. Perhaps they will give you more money but it might make them angry and you will get nothing so you must sign today. After all, you're only signing away your future and your way of life.

[lapfog_1]

27. +1000

As a 3/8ths Native American (Cherokee and Blackfoot), I approve of this analogy.

And might I add...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: