Is H1B Policy to Blame for Shortage of U.S.-born Technology Graduates?

[mule_train]

Source: Information Management

Is H1B Policy to Blame for Shortage of U.S.-born Technology Graduates?
Information Management Online, November 3, 2009

Ara C. Trembly


In a recent blog, I speculated on the reasons for the seeming lack of interest in computer science and engineering careers among our budding college graduates. I noted that many of the Millennial generation seem bored with the technology on which they were weaned, while others are too busy dreaming of becoming the next superstar (sports, entertainment) thanks to the well-meaning—but ultimately damaging—lie that “You can be anything you want to be.”

One reader, however, took me to task for not mentioning what he believes is the real reason behind the lack of enthusiasm for technology among recent graduates. This reader pointed out that thanks to H1B, visas issued by the federal government, low-paid foreign IT workers are flooding the U.S. market and companies are snapping them up rather than pay more for homegrown workers. As a result, potential graduates see little future in an IT career—at least in the United States.


According to Workpermit.com, a Web site devoted to “immigration advice,” an H1B visa is a non-immigrant visa, which allows a U.S. company to employ a foreign individual for up to six years. Individuals can’t just apply for an H1B visa to allow them to work here. The employer must petition for entry of the employee. H1B visas are also subject to annual numerical limits.

When it comes to IT workers brought in under H1B visas, however, American companies get a whopping bonus, because they can pay such workers far below the standard wage paid in the United States for their work. The companies get cheap labor, but U.S. workers, as my reader suggests, get the shaft. I agree with my reader that the H1B program—ostensibly set up to fill a labor gap—has negatively affected the market for homegrown IT talent, and I have written as much on several occasions.


Read more: http://www.information-management.com/news/technology_graduates-10016453-1.html

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pretty astute article

but there's a wrong pre-supposition in the title

there's no shortage of graduates

[Taverner]

1. No, its our own damn education system, giving gobs of $$$ to football programs

and very little to science and, the necessary counterparts, arts and music.

[juno jones]

12. I agree.

Even back in the seventies, science and art funding came after the scoreboard for the football field.

[mule_train]

13. winning games while losing jobs - the priorities of an imbecile nation nt

[Deja Q]

43. The truth is in the middle. Both you and OhioChick are not incorrect...

[ixion]

2. well, not entirely, but it doesn't help

because it's driven the price one can command in the US tech market.

[Go2Peace]

39. It's true. Enrollment is dropping because it is seen as a dead end

I have relatives who were interested in Computer science but decided not to go into it. Young people fear there is no future. They are all too aware of the wage depression and the corporate policy of hiring external labor.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. Many if not most H1-b were educated in US schools.

They transistion directly from education visa to H1-b.

US students aren't taking the classes because a foreign student has that seat.

[Captain Hilts]

18. Right, and US students sometimes have difficulty understanding their TAs in math, science, etc.nt

[Fire1]

31. OH!! Did you go there???? SOMEBODY FINALLY SAID IT!! n/t

[Go2Peace]

40. Many do get an education here but far more come over on not just H1-B but other visa progs

Sorry, but that buys into the "highly educated" foreign workforce. There are many educated H1-Bs but there are as many being ground out through certification mills in places like India.

The majority are not graduates from US schools.

[Newsjock]

4. Wow, what an obscene quote from the CEO of SAS in there

Is there a political angle to all this? You bet. At the recent SAS Premier Business Leadership Series conference in Las Vegas, SAS CEO Jim Goodnight said that for his company, “It has become more and more difficult to hire Ph.D.-level people interested in writing code, and we’re not producing homegrown people.” As a result, SAS is asking Congress to approve more H1B visas to fill the gap, but Goodnight says there is political resistance to that idea.

“Nancy Pelosi refuses to give in on bringing smart people in until the 12 million people who are here illegally—most of whom will vote Democratic—are granted amnesty,” he stated. Interestingly, SAS is very active in funding computer education and literacy in U.S. schools, an effort for which they should be applauded.

This is the sort of thing that gets my blood boiling, and it's way too early in the day for that.

[caseymoz]

24. It doesn't help that a Ph. D likely means $50-$80 thousand in debt for a graduate.

What got us into this in the first place were cuts in higher education under Reagan, where Pell Grants became scarce and education had to be financed with loans. (I remember at the time the interest rates on those loans went from 7 to 9 percent.) Then they made it impossible for students to discharge the student loans through bankruptcy. It meant that banks and post-secondary schools could rake in money from students being in debt, and raise their tuition and fees every year. This has put higher education into some disrepute.*

As a result, higher salaries were needed because students had to pay off these higher debts. Also, anybody getting a Ph. D. takes a gamble that when they choose their course that there will actually be any demand for their specialty, or demand enough that they will get a salary allowing payment for their loans.

The H1B-Visa has greatly aggravated this problem, but it is not the real problem. We solve the real problem instead of finding ways to give money to the rich

_________________

*I really think Republicans had it in for college students after Vietnam. I remember during one round of cuts, Bill Bennett, the new Secretary of Education, said, I remember this, that students now would have to cut back their stereo and party expenses. The cuts in funding were also at the state and local level. It's telling that the Repubs idea of correcting the problem was to enrich banks, enrich schools, and enrich corporations at the expense of students and graduates.

[Captain Hilts]

27. Fed Funding for graduate school was cut in the late '60s because it kept folks out of the draft.

Between that and Reagan, it's wealthy foreigners comprising over half of students in graduate school, outside of law and medical school.

[caseymoz]

30. I wasn't aware of that cut. Interesting they didn't reinstitute it in the 70s. nt

[Captain Hilts]

33. Yes, I've always been fascinated by that. nt

[SharonAnn]

46. Why does he need a PhD to write code?

I would think a PhD would be bored to death with that task.

Architecting the system, developing the algorithms, etc. might be more appropriate use of that talent.

[stray cat]

5. Its not the visas fault American students can't do math or science

[mule_train]

6. no, but it's the visa's fault that math and science wages have been demolished nt

[ramapo]

9. All the math/science hype is a cruel joke

Politicians and educators never stop with the "we must do better in math and science". Well I couldn't agree more.

Too bad math and science is of little value if/when you happen to complete an advanced degree in one of these fields.

Foreign countries (India/China, et al) are churning out engineers at a torrid pace. I believe many of those engineers are busy working and even more important, are valued by industry and government.
These countries have impressive projects ongoing, especially China which will soon leave us in their dust.

[mule_train]

11. India and China don't screw their own citizens who study math and science

that actually is, the one thing we could learn from them

[Vehl]

28. Better yet...US should learn not to screw Teachers!

Ive seen so many teachers given the pink slip during the past year...and during every single time there is a cash crunch.


This is akin to shooting oneself in the foot! because teachers are a national resource...one cannot "create" good teachers in the blink of an eye.. an engineer might be made in 4-5 years...but a good teacher? takes decades. By letting teachers go, not only are they ensuring that the next crop of students will have to face newer-less experienced teachers...but are also effectively cordoning off a segment of the academia that has vast potential. And what will happen if the teachers do get another teaching job a few years down the lane? their skills might be blunted(due to lack of practice). Thus this trend of firing and hiring teachers results in nothing but causing grave damage to the country as a whole.


Have you seen any Asian country firing teachers even if they are facing a recession? nope. In fact teachers are very respected over there and have guaranteed job security. My grandparents were both teachers..and even to this day..their students(even those who studied under them nearly 50 years ago) don't fail to visit them...and even introduce their own kids.These people are spread all over the world, but they make a point of visiting and paying their respect to their teachers whenever they visit their native land. This bond between teacher and student is sadly lacking here...with many of my fellow students treating teachers as they would say...a cashier in a grocery store.

Even though this might sound cheesy...there is a saying in India which goes thus "Matha , Pitha , Guru ,Deivam". Which literally means "Mother, father , teacher, god". It's the order in which a person is supposed to give respect...note that the teacher is listed Before god itself. Even though one does not expect the cultural "quirks" of other countries to be followed in the us...one would hardly be able to disagree that teachers ought to be treated better than they are right now.



Will teachers be willing to give their fullest if they have to face the possibility of layoff every single day?
unless the teaching profession is respected and is not undercut at every single opportunity i see no improvement here in the us. Needless to say..the students need to do their part too.

[Fire1]

32. Hey newbie! NAIL ON THE HEAD!! n/t

[Vehl]

35. Ty:) one of my professor's is getting laid off this sem ...

He is one of the most knowledgeable guys i've met and i think that by letting teachers like him go the university system is making a grave mistake.

Last week he told me that he has a job offer from one of the middle eastern countries..and he might be going there(He is a us born professor)....

Brain drains like these herald a dire future..

[Captain Hilts]

17. Now you understand how folks in the construction and eldercare fields feel. nt

[mule_train]

19. I've always been against destruction of ANY jobs

I had an econ minor in college

I always get (falsely) accused 'of not caring about other jobs'

I've always understood labor economics, lowering wages anywhere lower all wages everywhere eventually and vice versa

[Captain Hilts]

21. I, too, study labor. And I was glad to see your note. nt

[caseymoz]

25. No, see #24. It was changes made to higher ed. under Reagan

He changed it from a grant to a loan-based system. The results have been calamitous in many ways.

[Go2Peace]

42. Deleted

[HughBeaumont]

14. Will you just please SHUT it with the Repuke talking points already?

Yeah, keep defending FAILURE. Joke.

[girl gone mad]

26. I teach relativity to high school students.

You haven't got the first clue what you're talking about.

[Go2Peace]

41. Stray cat, we already know your background.

" If a person is the best for a job thats the person I want.
and don't think the American is usually that person any more"

Don't you think your position is a little anti-social? Don't you think this is part of the "problem"?

[Deja Q]

44. Chicken or the egg, maybe students see NO INCENTIVE TO LEARN OR USE THOSE CONCEPTS...

[The Traveler]

45. Neither can most of the H1B's I've worked with

Frankly, everybody falls somewhere on the bell curve. The average H1B is slightly less astute, in my experience as a UNIX and J2EE systems developer, than the average American born developer. Language barriers are real and probably account for most of my perception. I bet the actual distribution of skill is exactly similar.

Now, don't get me wrong. I have certainly known some top gun H1B developers. They tend to be quietly confident, humorous ... like their equally qualified American born peers. My point is, like our own people, the H1B types fall along the bell curve of competence and knowledge.

I recently had to review the solution to the quadratic equation with an H1B. So, like, don't get me started on the "Americans can't do math and science and they can" thing. That is resorting to a useless stereotype, and does a great disservice to your fellow Americans.

Trav

[ramapo]

7. The irony is....

H1B for tech workers really got its start in the mid-later '90s as a TEMPORARY fix for the lack of technology workers until training/edu ramped up in the United States.

H1B instead turned out to provide tech companies with a way to blunt the compensation demands of US workers.

H1B provided a training ground for foreign workers to come here, gain additional experience, and network before returning home to build the foundation of the huge outsourcers who have sucked tech jobs out of this country.

H1B workers ensured a ready supply of workers to replace Americans.

Over the past decade, it became apparent that many tech jobs provided little security. Try becoming a programmer here. Such jobs are few and far between as so much of this work has gone offshore. Programming was an entry level job that gave you a basic understanding of IT and provided a foundation for career growth.

That is long gone.

There is little reason to major in computer science or engineering if the chance of having a career is not relatively good.

I've been in the industry for close to 30 years (ouch). It has become yet another example of how to destroy a country's employment base. I could provide countless examples that total literally hundreds of thousands of excellentn jobs that have been destroyed.

Sadly, the Clinton administration is responsible for sowing the seeds. Bush provided much water and fertilizer. Hillary was all for H1B. The Obama administration is not exactly rushing to limit the program.

This truly is a country bent on self-destruction.

[mule_train]

8. Hillary and Obama on H-1b

Hillary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOW0cUaGWZU

Obama

Tech workers dealt setback in H-1B case (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9135952/Tech_workers_dealt_setback_in_H_1B_case )

Appeals court affirms lower court decision, cites lack of 'standing'
By Patrick Thibodeau
July 27, 2009 07:45 PM ET

The U.S. Court of Appeals in Philadelphia has ruled against the tech workers that have been fighting a federal decision to allow foreign students to work on a student visa from one year to 29 months.

The Programmers Guild and others fighting the student visa extension, approved during President Bush's administration and subsequently backed by President Obama, argued that the extension was a backdoor H-1B increase that has brought more competition to the labor market, hurting wages and job prospects of U.S. workers.

The Bush administration extended the visa in 2008 because of the high demand for H-1B visas at the time, and concern that students, unable to get a visa, would return.

[LiberalEsto]

10. Of course it is

My husband is a database administrator who has seen dozens upon dozens of coworkers replaced by cheap foreign labor in the form of H1B visa holders.

He advised both our kids, as well as the kids of everyone we know, not to bother studying computer science because they would have a very tough time getting computer jobs that would pay them enough to buy a home, etc. Other people he knows in the computer industry have told their kids the same thing.

As an ex-newspaper reporter who has seen 5 of the 6 papers I worked for go out of business, I advised my kids not to major in journalism either. What on earth would be the point of it?

[OhioChick]

15. Hmmm....

· H-1B visas do not create new jobs, InfoWorld, Oct. 25, 2005, http://www.infoworld.com/t/tech-industry-analysis/h-1b-visas-do-not-create-new-jobs-865

· H-1B visa holders are paid less than US counterparts, Hindustan Times, Jan. 13, 2007, http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=cda81c51-7247-4c2a-8e36-2414c5f9686c

· Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers, eWeek.com, April 4, 2007, http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/Study-There-Is-No-Shortage-of-US-Engineers/

· Parsing the Truths About Visas for Tech Workers, The New YorkTtimes, April 15, 2007, http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/business/yourmoney/15view.html?_r=1&ref=worldbusiness

· Skilled American's Jobs May Be in Jeopardy Again, Associated Content, April 19, 2007, http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/220331/skilled_americans_jobs_may_be_in_jeopardy.html?cat=3

· The Science Education Myth: Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support, BusinessWeek, Oct. 26, 2007, http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb20071025_827398.htm

· Look Into Their Eyes: These people lost high-tech jobs to low-wage countries. Try telling them that offshoring is a good thing in the long run, FastCompany.com, Dec. 19, 2007, http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/81/offshore_profiles.html

· Study Says H-1Bs Aren't the Best or Brightest, eWeek.com, may 12, 2008, http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/h1b_foreign_workers/study_says_h1bs_arent_the_best_or_brightest.html

· A computer science professor's never-ending H-1B fight, ComputerWorld, July 21, 2008, http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyId=13&articleId=9110379&intsrc=hm_topic

· High Rate of H-1B Visa Fraud, BusinessWeek, Oct. 8, 2008, http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/oct2008/db2008108_844949.htm?chan=rss_topEmailedStories_ssi_5

· Government Study Finds 21% Of H-1B Applications Violate Rules, InformationWeek, Oct. 20, 2008, http://www.informationweek.com/news/global-cio/h1b/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=211201998

· Pfizer Accused of Using U.S. Workers to Train Foreign Replacements, e-Week.com, Nov. 5, 2008, http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/Pfizer-Accused-of-Using-US-Workers-to-Train-Foreign-Replacements/

· 533,000 Jobs Lost in NOV -- But the Feds Imported Another 140,000 Foreign Workers the Same Month!, NumbersUSA, Dec. 5, 2008, http://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/december-5-2008/533000-jobs-lost-nov-but-feds-imported-another-140000-foreign-workers

· Expatriate executives making way for local hires, The Economic Times—India Times, Jan. 28, 2009, http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/Jobs/Expatriate_executives_making_way_for_local_hires/articleshow/4039529.cms

· While Americans lose their homes, go without medical care, America offers fat stipends to foreign students, excellent jobs to H1B foreign workers, India Daily, Feb. 5, 2009, http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/20501.asp

· The H-1B visa has got to go: With more than 200,000 tech workers on the unemployment line, there's no longer any reason to look abroad for employees, InforWorld—Bill Snyder Blog, Feb. 12, 2009, http://www.infoworld.com/t/tech-industry-analysis/h-1b-visa-has-got-go-258

· Indians involved in major US H-1B visa racket, The Times of India, Feb. 13, 2009, http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/US/Indians-involved-in-major-US-H-1B-visa-racket/articleshow/4124465.cms

· Report finds fraud in 20% of H-1B applications, The Seattle Times, Feb. 15, 2009, http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008746255_h1bside15m.html

· College enrollment in computer science, engineering on the rise, USA Today, March 18, 2009, http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2009-03-17-engineering-computer-enrollment_N.htm

· It's Time to Overhaul H-1B Visas, BusinessWeek, April 2, 2009, http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_15/b4126063331942.htm

· India's Business Schools Out of Date, The Washington Post, May 3, 2009, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/02/AR2009050200702.html?hpid=moreheadlines

· US: H-1B workers outnumber unemployed techies, ComputerWorld, May 26, 2009, http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133529

· Work Visa Bill Threatens Indian Outsourcers, Finance.Yahoo.com, June 3, 2009, http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Work-Visa-Bill-Threatens-bizwk-15423373.html?.v=1

· Analysis: If N.J. sees H-1B use driving down wages, will Congress? , ComputerWorld, June 4, 2009, http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133957]

· Wal-Mart to Start Outsourcing More to India, BusinessWeek, June 8, 2009, http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jun2009/gb2009068_435509.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index+-+temp_global+business

[ccinamon]

22. thanks for the great links! n/t

[Captain Hilts]

16. In part, yes. Not only are US-born kids crowded out, as undergraduates they often complain

sometimes with validity, of not being able to understand their TAs in economics, mathematics or the sciences.

[mule_train]

20. I had TA's that could barely speak English AT ALL

didn't understand or care about the subject or the students

and were arrogant as hell

[Captain Hilts]

23. I had an Intro to US Govt. prof from Korea whom I could not understand, AND

he wrote on the blackboard over his shoulder...on top of what he'd written for the previous class.

Terrible.

[Vehl]

29. I'ts not just us-born kids who suffer cos of ta's

If there is say..an Indian TA who has a thick accent..then everyone who is Not Indian will have an issue with it.
The same goes for say..a Chinese TA with a heavy accent...anyone who is not Chinese will have a hard time understanding it..especially foreign students who have even less of an exposure to Chinese accent than Americans who at least have some exposure.

I had a memorable experience in one of my engineering classes when a Chinese Professor shouted at me for asking to clarify what he meant by the "conchoo button" (it was apparently the control button).He held a gruge against me for the entire semester cos he thought i was making fun of his accent(i wasn't!)

so yeah...its not just US students who have issues with Ta's its most often anyone who is not of the same ethnicity as the TA.


ps: I'm ok with most TA's who have bad accents..cos what they lack in their verbal skills, they make up for in their subject-skills...at least in most cases.

Furthermore..its the student's job to prepare....there were instances when the Ta's/professor's i had were so bad at explaining the subject(not cos of the accents...but cos of their inability to properly explain) that the only way for me to learn the subject was to search online/use the libraries/rely totally on the textbook.

[Captain Hilts]

34. Yes it's up to students to prepare, but they're paying those teachers and TAs. nt

[Vehl]

36. true.

I used to be a volunteer TA for some of those early undergrad classes. The department was not able to pay cos of funding shortages so the professors asked if anyone is willing to volunteer without pay.

only 3 did...which is kinda sad cos i found that by being a TA helped us learn the subject deeper...
i've been working for 2 sems without pay. but its fun :)
will i like to get payed? yep! but they don't have money to hire TA's anymore :(

[Captain Hilts]

37. At Univ. Toronto, we TAs were paid something like $20 an hour. I can't remember

how many hours a week we were paid for. At that time, TAs at Stanford got $8 hour. What a dude I was!

The couple years after Ileft, TAs told me students were still asking for the TA who would sport the tiara and wand as "the Good Grade Fairy."

[Vehl]

38. wow! thats pretty good pay!

I doubt Ta's nowadays in my uni get anything close to that...

..but we do get free chips and sensors and other stuff we need(within reason) for our projects though...and free pizza :P
also the professor sets the lab hour based on our schedules..which is good.

yeah..i try not to be a hard grader...let me rephrase...i'm a easy grader.lol. As long as the students get the concepts i see no reason to trip them up..