Anatomy of a Smear (gay Episcopal bishop)

[northernsoul]

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/4026552.html

Looks like the Strib did a good job of connecting the dots here:

<snip>
The Every Voice Network Web site, a liberal Anglican site, reported Tuesday that the alleged inappropriate behavior "occurred when Robinson touched a married man in his 40s on his bicep, shoulder and upper back in the process of a public conversation at a province meeting around two years ago." Oh, please.

The phony accusation that Robinson was linked somehow to porn on the Web was easy to track down. It was a deliberate, calculated lie, apparently held in reserve until the last minute in case the first vote, in the House of Deputies, went against those opposed to Robinson's elevation to bishop -- which it did on Sunday.
...
The Weekly Standard is important in this. Executive Editor Fred Barnes gave the Robinson story a major boost -- after it was shopped to other news outlets that refused to bite -- when he posted information about the controversy on the magazine's Web site Monday. Barnes asserted that, "Episcopalian bishop-elect Gene Robinson has some curious affiliations," meaning the porn Web site.

No he doesn't, but Barnes does. He's not simply a journalist in this; he's a conservative Episcopalian of outspoken views who sits on the board of the Institute on Religion and Democracy. It's a conservative group which believes that mainline Protestant churches "have thrown themselves into multiple, often leftist crusades -- radical forms of feminism, environmentalism, pacifism, multi-culturalism, revolutionary socialism, sexual liberation and so forth." The group vigorously opposes gay rights within the church.

Also fascinating is who funds the institute. The most prominent names on the list of contributors are Olin, Scaife and Bradley, the same folks who bankrolled the Clinton wars.
</snip>

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. Olin, Scaife and Bradley.

Three wealthy families who will not rest until they use their monies to control every aspect of American Life, or destroy themselves in the attempt.

[RedSox02]

2. I am an Episcopalian

I have no problem with Fred Barnes sharing the same faith as I. I will not say who does or doesn't belong in the church. I don't understand why people seem to forget that(if you are religious anyways) God is supposed to be the ultimate judge. Worry about your own lives and live them the way you feel is right. Bishop Robinson will not bring pain or suffering upon anyone. He is obvioulsy a kind man who has won respect and admiration from the people who know him best, the people who nominated him in New Hampshire. They know more about him than the simple fact that he is gay. I have a few openly gay members in my Church. Very caring and helpful people who couldn't hurt a fly. To think that God would want to strike down these people is outrageous. If I truly believed God had a beef with these people, I wouldn't be a Christian.

[Dem2dend]

5. I have a problem

It doesn't matter so much that he is gay, but the fact that he divorced his wife (and 2 daughters) and moved in with his lover in 1986 doesn't make him sound like "bishop material."
If he's following the Bible closely it says the only reason he could have divorced his wife was for adultery, apparently it was his adultery that caused the divorce.
A church leader should lead by his example.
I imagine they could have found a bishop who hadn't divorced his wife somewhere within the church. The fact that he was gay shouldn't matter, his divorce should.
I imagine I may be opening a can of worms here, but if the church wanted a gay bishop, couldn't they have found one who hadn't been married first?

[glarius]

6. Don't you think the way he empathizes with his congregation is what is

most important?....He strikes me as a very caring, kind, good-hearted person..IMO

[Dem2dend]

7. Empathizing with his congregation

doesn't change the fact that he committed adultery.
David could do nothing to change his adultery but found forgiveness when he repented.
The new bishop hasn't repented, he took another lover and asked the church to look beyond his sin..
This is why I don't believe that he should be a bishop.
A bishop's first responsibility is to God's word and then to his flock.
The Bible covers adultery and homosexuality separately. When we excuse adultery because of homosexuality I fear we are taking liberties with His Word.

[Lindacooks]

8. How do you know?

You aren't God, and you can't read the Bishop's mind. How do you know he hasn't repented? And don't tell me that because he is with another person that means he hasn't repented; that's bull.

[Dem2dend]

11. How do you know he has

since he still is with the other person and none of the google searches I've found regarding it quote him as saying he has?

But then, how does one repent for something they are in the process of doing? It seems as though all he could really pray for was acceptance.

Main Entry: 1re·pent
Pronunciation: ri-'pent
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French repentir, from re- + pentir to be sorry, from Latin paenitEre -- more at PENITENT
Date: 14th century
intransitive senses
1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mind
transitive senses

[DrBB]

15. "Repent"

...in John, as in "preaching a gospel of repentance" is the English translation of the Greek term "Metanoia" and is inaccurate in that it uses as its root "paenitentia" (Vulgate) which emphasizes regret and punishment (hence terms like "penal system").

Whereas metanoia means something much broader and more positive in its connotations--a radical reassesment or change of mind about something.

A fairly apt term for what (most) of the Episcopal church has been undergoing with respect to homosexuality.

Regarding your completely misconceived point about Robinson's divorce and his relation with his family, I have addressed that in my other posts.

[Rowdyboy]

20. "Two months AFTER his wife REMARRIED he met....

his partner of fourteen years".

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2023864

His wife knew he was gay before they married, his family was with him at the Convention when the vote was taken.

Any more lies you people who oppose the Bishop want to throw out? Feel free to join your friends on the right.

By the way, there are currently six Episcopal Bishops who have divorced and remarried-including my own. As a matter of fact, if you kicked all the divorced and homosexuals, you wouldn't have much "church" under the age of 75 left.

[Abbalon]

10. Why why don't

you have a parade like those that are held by Southern Baptist to chastise the sin of homosexuality.

I have often wondered why other sins besides homosexuality were never berated on the same level.

Plain old adultery must be happening at a greater rate.

Demtodend, what a contempable thing to say. Do you think we are so stupid as to bite at so flimsy an analogy?

"The Bible covers adultery and homosexuality separately. When we excuse adultery because of homosexuality I fear we are taking liberties with His Word".

Why my good dem2dend have I never seen adultery marched against by fundies? They don't mind some sins. They don't attack a sin they may be party too. No parades condeming alcoholics in 90 years. That one went over real well too.

The demonization of gays or the elevation of a layman to preist seem to be the theme of your problems with a gay minister. By taking two issues you say are separate and combining the two, you have interposed your spin in an effort to condemn homosexuality.

It is the lack of Christian uproar over that particular sin coupled with their very vocal and dangerous uproar over homosexuality that makes me see more in your statements.

Can you in all honesty tell us why the good bishop divorced his wife? Or if he is less than a stellar dad to this kids.

Can you really give us an insight into how his wife feels about him or the divorce?

You have assumed way to much for this openminded Liberal. I have rubbed elbows with to many nazis to be blind to even subtle spin.

If I am in any way out of line. I beg up just show me your case to conclude adultery on the part of the Good Bishop.Lifting the good word can be a noble exercise in personal freedom. It can be quite the opposite too.

My church ws once split asunder by sin chasers. My mother and father separated for three months before getting back together. Why would the church think it their buisness to pass judgement on a personal matter?

[Dem2dend]

17. My issue with him

as I pointed out, is that he has committed adultery against his wife.

I did not write the Bible, I pointed out that both adultery and homosexuality are discussed there. This is fact. The contemptable party in your mind should be God for addressing it, not me for alluding to it.

Adulterer's and alcoholics are sinners. Christ would implore each to turn from their ways. (Stop the sin) I am pointing out that both adultery and homosexuality are addressed in the Bible and you have compared me to a Nazi. Are you judging me for believing the word or for repeating it here?

As far as the bishop being a stellar father, divorce for children is considered by many to be a form of child abuse. The child is robbed of the example of a two parent loving family and they are also then forced to change their lives as a result of a parent's decision.
Consider the life of that child as he grows with separate families to visit for holiday's and birthdays. The logistics of having both parents and new spouses together in awkward situations regarding their children as they grow.

Christ (not I) describes divorce as a condition of hard heartedness.
This is the main problem I see for the bishop, everything else stems from his divorce.

Can you really give us an insight into how his wife feels about him or the divorce?

I gave you insight into how God feels about divorce, that seems as though it should be more important to the church.

Why does the church pass judgement on personal matters?

Because Christians are told to take such matters to another believer, then another and, if they refuse to change, finally to the church. If that Christian still refuses to change their way, they are told to be treated "as a tax collector."

Homosexuality and adultery are viewed by the Bible as sexual immorality. I Corinthians 5 addresses sexual immorality:


Expel the immortal brother:

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature<1> may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."<2>

Condemn Paul for his writings, don't condemn me for posting them

[glarius]

14. I find it impossible to believe a God who could create ALL would

be so unforgiving as you are describing....I believe too much pain and harm has been caused in this world by those "interpreting" the Bible....Judge not lest ye be judged...That's in the Bible too!
edit--I don't mean to sound harsh but I do feel this way!!

[Dem2dend]

18. Judge not

has become a "catch all" phrase which is now interpreted "accept sin."
Since sin is a transgression of the law, we can substitute the word "crime" for "sin".
Would anyone say "ignore crime so that you don't become a criminal"?
We were called to preach the good news to all nations. if we accept sin (crime) rather than to redress it as a transgression, we have embraced it and called it acceptable.

"Judge not" means that we should make certain we are not guilty of the same sin before we "judge" someone else for it.

[DrBB]

19. You're off base

The Episcopal church does not regard divorce in the fundamentalist-literalist light you prefer, and that is the standard that applies. Further, where do you get this "adultery" stuff from? I would urge you (for the 3rd or 4th time) to actually address what Robinson himself has told us on this issue. His divorce as I have pointed out was completely amicable, he maintains a close relationship with his former wife and his kids, and she was quite aware of his orientation and his struggles with it before getting married.


The rest of this is all just a lot of hooey--you're arguing with people who don't buy your fundamentalist-literalist exegetical approach to begin with (nor does the Episcopal church), so going back and forth like this is a waste of time. Either deal with the man's actions as they actually are, or stop wasting your breath. My gentle advice anyway.

[Dem2dend]

21. You're right

I'm apparently using Bible passages to argue with a church that doesn't believe in it.

[DrBB]

22. If literalism/fundamentalism were the only legitimate

...approach you'd have a point. Unfortunately there's about 1700 years of exegesis that says you're wrong.

[Rowdyboy]

24. We have little use for fundamentalism in the Episcopal church...

That's why we're not Southern Baptists, or Pentacostals or Assembly of God-your fundamentalist/literalist approach is pretty much ancient history in our faith and I, for one, am quite proud of that.

We do quite well doctrinally with no instructions from those outside the diocese or the church.

[donco6]

35. Well, not like a RW fundamentalist believes, certainly.

But, that wouldn't apply to you.

[glarius]

23. Because YOU say this doesn't make it so

I have my own interpretation of what God expects of us!

[Dem2dend]

25. What's your interpretation

of "Judge not lest ye be judged"
and how does it stand up against Matthew 18:15-17

If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Christ made both statements, the second dealt with believers within the church.

[glarius]

26. .I couldn't care less about all these Bible quotations

I KNOW HOW TO BEHAVE AND HOW TO TREAT OTHERS....I'm convinced if Christ were on earth today, most of the Bible quoting fundamentalists would be lecturing HIM too...because he would be forgiving everyone and probably hanging out with the wrong people....IMO
edit---I don't think they'd be the wrong people but the fundamentalists would!
This is getting B-O-R-I-N-G!....I've nothing more to say!

[Dem2dend]

27. "I couldn't care less about all these Bible quotations"

That's the real message from the fundamentalists.

[glarius]

29. I haven't read the Bible in years....So what?

I feel as close to God as those of you who are constantly quoting from it....I don't fault you, so don't fault me....I believe we are judged by the way we live our lives, not by how much of the Bible we can recite...No hard feelings....To each his own....

[Dem2dend]

30. If you haven't read the Bible in years,

why did you quote from it and then say "I couldn't care less about all these Bible quotations"? You're not certain what it says yet you're certain you are living according to it.

I guess you're correct, to each his own.

[glarius]

32. Yes.....I quoted ONE quote from the Bible

I have no idea what chapter and verse it is and I don't care...That's a far cry from the boring people who spout Bible quotations at the drop of a hat.....I am certain I'm living a good life...I didn't say according to the Bible!...In answer #23 I said "I HAVE MY OWN INTERPRETATION OF WHAT GOD EXPECTS OF US!" ...I don't CARE what it says in the Bible and I don't care what you or anyone else thinks I should be taking from the Bible...This subject has just about run it's course as far as I'm concerned so I wish you well but I've got nothing more to say and other things to do....Adieu :)

[DrWeird]

36. Who the hell died and made you Jesus.

Here's another quote for you:

"Thou shall not give false witness."

Since the only reasoning you give for him being an adulterer is that he divorced his wife and now lives with his lover, I guess I'll see you in Hell.

[DrBB]

9. This is highly inaccurate

"Following the Bible closely"? Um, last I looked, the Episcopal church was not a literalist-fundamentalist outfit, theologically. In fact the canonical position on divorce is quite moderate--were it not, I wouldn't have been married to my wife of now 23 years thank you very much. And I believe the figure is that there are now 9 episcopal bishops who have been divorced.

Regarding Robinson's family, you are completely mistaken. Listen to the interview with Robinson on Fresh Air for a correction to this. Their divorce was completely amicable. In fact Robinson was one who had tried to "cure" himself of his gayness, and his wife was quite aware of his orientation and his struggles to "overcome" it BEFORE their marriage.
http://freshair.npr.org and click on Archives.

I would further add that any traditionalist who is not deeply, deeply ashamed of this last minute, transparent, EpiscoRove-ian smear attempt has lost my intellectual respect.

[Abbalon]

12. Damn

you keep saying stuff I would have said. Just damn. Done been said by somebody else. I must plagerize while I think. Heheeee...

Good on you. This shows that we are on the same page.

Another poster remarked the same thing before me conserning your posts.

I hope this is a trend. That we are all getting on the same page with much the same foundation that is characterised by the wealth of objective information here at DU.

Go team, go....I like seeing Dr.BB carry the ball.

[northernsoul]

16. lay it down, DrBB

I appreciate your calmly delivered insights on this issue.

[TrogL]

28. Please remember this is the Episocopalean church

The Anglican church got off the ground due to a rather famous divorce.

[Karenina]

31. Like, HAL-LO!

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! HAL-LO!!!
I LOVED "A Lion in Winter." Ah, these intimate relationships...

[DrBB]

33. Well, um, different Henry. but yeah.

Lion in Winter was Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine--12th century vs 16th, Plantagenet vs Tudor. But still, all monarchies are soap operas, yeah? :)

[donco6]

34. So divorced people are unworthy of church leadership?

Seems kinda sad to me.

[glarius]

3. New bishop Gene Robinson....nice man

I usually trust my instincts about people...Seeing Bisop-elect Robinson this morning on CNN where he, like a true Christian, forgave the man who accused him....I was impressed by his genuine good heartedness....He has impressed me from the beginning as a sincere, caring person....I think the Episcopalian Church can only gain from having him as a bishop...IMO.
:-)

[KG]

4. as a rather detached observer of this issue

when the accusations were announced, so close to the vote deadline, the first thought that crossed my mind was 'how conveeeeenient' and understood them to be the blatents smears they are.

[Abbalon]

13. Your

branches reach mush higher in the forest than some. Spread the knowledge you have gathered from your better vantange point.

DU is fertile ground for us to grow taller. Funny how intellectual growth allows you your keen insight into current events. I see it happening more and more around here.

The real funny is that rightwingers seem to get shorter and shorter, like stumps submersed in tepid water. They follow the tether of their masters so close that they are forever wearing blinders to what is really going on.

Not like the vast range of liberal thinkers moving inexonerably forward towards Enlighten Humanity.

I see this phenom with wingers as something akin to mass self delusion. They are just afraid to look for themselves. Objective reality is far removed from the worldview of the Conservative Christian Republican Politics of Personal Distruction.