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NYT, pg1: Forget Logic; Fear Appears to Have Edge

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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 08:51 AM
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NYT, pg1: Forget Logic; Fear Appears to Have Edge
Forget Logic; Fear Appears to Have Edge
By VIKAS BAJAJ
Published: October 7, 2008

The technical term for it is “negative feedback loop.” The rest of us just call it a panic.

How else to explain yet another plunge in the stock market Tuesday that sent the Standard & Poor’s 500-stock index to its lowest level in five years — particularly in the absence of another nasty surprise? If anything, the markets should have been buoyed by the Federal Reserve saying it would shore up another troubled corner of finance by lending money directly to companies. Stocks did open higher, but then quickly tumbled as rumors swirled about the viability of big financial firms like Morgan Stanley and the Royal Bank of Scotland.

Anybody searching for cause-and-effect logic in the daily gyrations of the market will be disappointed — even if the overarching problem of a crisis of confidence in the global economy is now becoming clear. Instead, the market has become a case study in the psychology of crowds, many experts say. In normal times, it runs on a healthy mix of fear and greed. But fear now seems to rule, with investors often exhibiting a Wall Street version of the fight-or-flight mechanism — they are selling first, and asking questions later.

“What’s happening is people are crawling into a bunker and pulling an iron sheet over their heads because they think the sky is falling,” said William Ackman, a prominent hedge fund manager in New York. And that bunker is getting very crowded, so much so that some analysts are starting to suggest the markets are showing signs of “capitulation” — another term of art to describe what happens when even the bullish holdouts, the unflagging optimists, throw up their hands and join the stampede out of the market.

Fear can be seen at every turn — in headlines raising questions about another Great Depression, and in the crowds gathered around office televisions to track stocks or to parse the latest pronouncements from the Federal Reserve chairman, Ben S. Bernanke, or the Treasury secretary, Henry M. Paulson Jr. Even James Cramer, the voluble and long-bullish host of an investing show on CNBC, advised investors to sell some stock during appearances on the “Today” show Monday and Tuesday mornings.

To some, signs of capitulation can be read as an indicator that the bottom may be near. Indeed, Sam Stovall, chief investment strategist at Standard & Poor’s Equity Research, is among those who say the market may be close to a bottom....

***

Another barometer of panic: volatility, reflected in the so-called Fear Index (or the VIX), which tracks options trades that investors use to protect against future losses. On Tuesday, it climbed to its highest level since the 1987 stock market crash....

***

If the market is indeed close to the bottom, history suggests any rally in the next few weeks will probably be big. Since World War II, Mr. Stovall estimates stocks have recouped about a third of their bear market losses in the first 40 days after the market hits bottom. But enough investors have to first be persuaded that the economy and housing market will begin recovering soon. Another major test will be third-quarter corporate earnings announcements that will trickle out in the next three weeks. Perhaps the most important indicator will be the credit markets: Investors will regain confidence when they believe financial firms are adequately capitalized and money is flowing more freely through the financial system....

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/08/business/08fear.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 08:55 AM
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1. they need to grow up
they are acting like frightened little children when mommy and daddy leave them with a babysitter for the first time.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 08:58 AM
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2. wow... this borders on propaganda, IMO
so, the fact that people are finally zoning in on the economic realities that the US is financially insolvent, and in fact is going to experience a financial tsunami when the Credit Default Swap market collapses, and they're chiding people for making prudent financial decisions?

For me, this is akin to * telling people to "go shopping", or telling chronic gamblers to keep gambling.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. akin to playing like ur christian but reading the book of Rush for guidance
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 09:05 AM
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3. Panic is the stupidest reason to make any decision
especially a financial decision. Oh, it's great for getting out of the way of a reckless driver or out from under a heavy falling object, but it's useless in other areas.

Look at it this way, panic is what drove the housing bubble, that horrible dread that if you didn't jump at that half a million dollar shack in a bad hood with a shifty loan, you'd have to pay three quarters of a million for it next month. It's why so many good people got sucked into terrible situations. It wasn't greed. It was fear of being shut out.

The same goes for the panic now. People shifting to CDs, T bills or even savings accounts might find themselves with frozen accounts when the panic shifts to getting their assets back out and into equities or just paying the rent in a true meltdown. There is no way to anticipate just how bad this thing is going to be, and even making the "prudent" panic driven decision of protecting one's asset dollar amount has the distinct possibility of backfiring.

Roosevelt was right when he said "we have nothing to fear but fear itself." He was talking about the blind panic that had driven equities below what they were worth, of throwing enough people out of work that the rest were afraid to part with a dime to buy a new pair of shoes, of hoarding what you had if you had anything at all in the fear that times would only get worse.

The situation is awful. I've seen my own portfolio's dollar amount decrease by a third, decrease by what I earned in 15 years as a nurse. That's been tough to take. However, it's only numbers.

I'm keeping equities, cash accounts, and CDs. I will survive and so will you.

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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. A reassuring post, Warpy -- thanks! nt
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I watched my dad for years
and he'd be ecstatic when the market was up, grouchy when it was down. Still, he never let panic guide him, not even in the crash in 1987.

Panic is the dumbest reason to make any life decision.

Just make sure you're diversified and you know something will survive and so will you.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Well said. thanks. nt
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screembloodymurder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
4. We need to make a choice between hope and fear.
My own future has been picked clean by scavengers. I'm voting for my grand children's future.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
6. Markets are driven by fear and greed, not logic.
It's not like this is a new thing going on now, it's old as the hills, and predictable too.
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
9. Thanks for posting DMM
:)
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
10. 'The technical term for it is “negative feedback loop.”' - bollocks
Negative feedback lessens an effect - if a value goes down, then negative feedback will work to stop the decrease. It's 'negative' in the sense that the feedback value had the opposite sign of the main signal. The article is talking about positive feedback.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&q=define%3A%22negative+feedback%22&btnG=Search&meta=

I wouldn't mind so much if the writer hadn't claimed to know the 'technical' term.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Attagirl.
They're trying to sound technical, but don't quite pull it off.
:applause:
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Oops. You beat me to it
Yeah. It's at least a type-2 system judging by its response. And we're seeing how undamped systems can behave sometimes right now...
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-08 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
12. To be technical that's a positive feedback loop
The "positive" and "negative" talk about whether the feedback accelerates (positive) or dampens (negative) the response. Positive feedback loops have this problem with being unstable. As we can see.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-08 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
14. By and large, and over time, dividends decide stock value
Though after the '29 crash dividends also crashed, and the loss of stock values was made real by the failure of the companies to demonstrate earnings for years after.

It is hard to say whether this time resembles the prior. 3rd quarter earnings should over-ride whatever sentiment, but credit markets (in conjunction with the potential for fiscal chaos resulting from unprecedented money supply manipulations) may impact earnings for the long term.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-08 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
15. A Panic Is NOT a Negative Feedback Loop
A panic is an open-ended, oscillatory process, the very opposite of a negative feedback loop. It is a positive feedback, that grows with each cycle until one's speakers burn out, or the amplifire fries, or the economy totally collapses.

Sheesh!

If that's what economists know about feedback, it's no wonder they don't know how to handle a crisis.
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