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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:15 PM
Original message
Analysis: Universities Overproduce Ph.Ds
College students are getting a raw deal, a recent New York report asserted. The problem is they're taking too many classes from part-time, or adjunct, professors.

But that same report unwittingly revealed something about how higher education is more culpable than it likes to admit when it comes to creating the problem.

The issue is a huge one in higher education far beyond New York, with about half of the nation's college faculty now on part-time contracts. Adjuncts are cheaper for colleges, but they often lack the time and resources for focused teaching, and research shows students' performance suffers if they are taught by part-timers too often.

In its report last month, a 30-member commission called for New York's state (SUNY) and city (CUNY) systems to alleviate the over reliance on adjuncts by hiring 2,000 more full-time faculty for their 87 campuses.

more...
http://www.wral.com/news/national_world/national/story/2330634/
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LuckyLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hiring a tenure-track faculty member is a huge financial outlay. Universities are "saving" by
Edited on Sun Jan-20-08 05:20 PM by CLW
doing everything they can do to not replace dead or retiring faculty with tenure track positions. The lack of financial commitment from states to the state universities has meant that the limited $$$$ flow to the "privileged" areas -- business, computer science, technology, engineering, and medicine. The liberal arts, social sciences, and education? Not so much.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. But college costs an arm and a leg. Where is the money going?
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. Buildings and Big Salaries for Administrators
Every year there's an article in the Ann Arbor News bleating about how underpaid the President of U of M is, compared to the Ivy League presidents, and how the head of the teaching hospital gets over $600K a year plus some pretty hefty bennies. Consider that Bush is paid one third that much, and aside from the Secret Service and the power to kill masses of people, his bennies are no better.

It's called misallocation of resources--but then the whole point is prestige and power, not teaching.
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ladym55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
29. Money goes lots of places
Administrators ... there are LOTS of them and they are well paid. Students today want SERVICES, so there are LOTS of pretty rec centers, deluxe dining facilities, all sorts of support staff ... lots of technology -- classrooms set up for projection --- wireless networks --- massive sports programs ... those coaches cost $$$$ and the deluxe practice facilities cost $$$$.

Who cares about professors and teaching? I spent 19 years as an adjunct-- the conditions were pretty bad. The saddest thing to me is that the STUDENTS didn't care about their education. All they wanted was an A (with no work, please -- they needed time to work out and party!!!)



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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Administrative bloat is a huge rat hole for educational funds
In 1968-72, my college had 1700 students and got by with very few administrators. Even our academic dean was half-time and taught a couple of philosophy courses to keep busy. There was a president, a comptroller, a director of alumni relations, a physical plant manager, a dean of students, a director of development, and everyone else was either faculty, clerical staff, librarian, or maintenance staff.

When I came back to teach ten years later, there were the same number of students and three times as many administrators, literally.

From what I read in the publications of the last college I taught it (till 1993), they've added more administrative positions since I left.

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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-22-08 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #31
48. I second that. I work at a community college, and we have all these Vice Presidents of this and that
many of them--maybe all--friends of the higher-ups who created their positions.

I tell you the rank and file ain't getting the do-re-mi. I have it on the best authority (a woman who works in HR) that 50%, yes, 50% of the faculty at staff are PART-TIME, NO BENEFITS.

Yours truly is one of the 50%.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-22-08 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. Community colleges are especially bad about bloat.
The one where I teach has just over 400 f/t employees, only about 100 of whom teach. The rest are staff and administration.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #48
60. One place I worked at as an adjunct hired me to work part-time during the
summer doing some data entry as they switched over to a new benefits plan.

In the course of doing this job, I saw that each of the vice-presidents had received a $10,000 raise (this was the early 1980s, so it was more like $20,000 today). Meanwhile, the academic departments were being told that they had to cut positions because there "wasn't any money."

At the fall faculty meeting, which I attended, the president announced that each humanities department would have to cut 1FTE. I spoke up and asked about the raises that the vice-presidents (four of them) had received. The assembled faculty gasped, and the president and the four vice-presidents gave me the evil eye. Finally, the president shouted, "That's confidential information!"

Fortunately, the head librarian spoke up and said, "No it's not. According to the rules established by the board of regents, I'm supposed to keep a copy of the college's salary information available for perusal by any donors who want to see it."

So I got off the hook on that one. Fortunately, I knew that I would be moving on at that point, so there were no lasting repercussions. Unfortunately, the faculty still had to decide among themselves which colleagues to sacrifice. It was a tough time.
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LuckyLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
34. Health benefits are the killer in college/university costs. Benefits
that insure employees have skyrocketed in cost. Heating and air conditioning costs for buildings and the cost of technology are also huge consumers of the college budget. Wiring up an entire campus and keeping technology current is not cheap.
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I am a college student
But I think they can find other ways to save money like spending less on sports.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Agree 100%. Oh for the day when society will value intelligence as much as sports! n/t
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
37. Go look at the athletic budget at most major schools
Edited on Mon Jan-21-08 01:43 PM by bamalib
Sports make money for universities. They don't take money.
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lolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. No--only in a very few schools
Only a handful of top-notch athletic schools make money off of sports--USC, Notre Dame (yeah, I know. Not so top-notch this year, but they still sell tickets and get TV money), Duke basketball, etc.

The rest barely break even or lose money on sports.
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-22-08 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
57. The rise of cable/satellite TV and the countless channels
Has diversified the money to scores of schools. I don't have any ready links for you but I have read several articles on this.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. I wouldn't say that there is an overproduction of PhDs
The problem seems to be that universities feel they can hire all of them.

Why aren't they going out into the community for jobs?

I'm sure anyone who is smart enough to get a PH.D is being wasted on part time work.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
32. People hang on in part-time academic jobs for the same reason that
actors or musicians hang on in part-time gigs: they love the work and are hoping to make it into the big leagues.

I actually made it into a full-time job after two years as an adjunct, but others aren't so lucky. When I lost my last full-time job in 1993, I looked at the available jobs and then looked at the 50-year-olds who had been nothing but adjuncts since getting out of grad school, and I thought, "I'm out of here."
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lolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
42. Big name profs want to teach grad students
Most universerties realize there is no future for 80% of the people they give PhDs in history or literature. But to get that big-name, star professor who will boost their rankings, they need to promise that the only classes he or she will have to teach will be graduate seminars.

I honestly believe most of the grad students in arts and humanities are there to provide an audience of followers for these people.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. Not in all fields. I have no idea why anyone would pursue a Doctorate in fields for which there is
Edited on Sun Jan-20-08 05:53 PM by jody
no demand either in academia or elsewhere.

Ultimately, it is up to each candidate to determine whether her/his new doctorate is marketable or not.

Presumably candidates are intelligent enough to make such decisions.

Mea culpa, I forgot such decisions require wisdom and experience, something often missing in a doctoral candidate or those with doctoral degrees in hand in the welfare line.

One additional factor is the proliferation of cheap doctoral degrees including some distance learning programs that give credit for such things as lifetime experience and other questionable practices.

I doubt that those with Ph.D.s from the "Top American Research Universities (1-25)" will have a problem finding a position.
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. your link does not work.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. It does for me. It's to "The Top American Research Universities, 2006 Annual Report" by
Edited on Sun Jan-20-08 05:54 PM by jody
The Center for Measuring University Performance at Arizona State University.

http://mup.asu.edu/research2006.pdf
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. It works now
thanks.
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malakai2 Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Unrealistic expectations and a fake market
Our culture generally tries to instill in children a belief that they can be anything they want to be. At the same time, we teach them to seek careers that make them happy, because money isn't everything. What we don't teach them is that there are costs inherent in reaching whatever goal they chose, and life can be miserable for those who aren't making much of an income, especially if their education was funded by loans. The costs are almost never discussed-universities downplay the costs of attendance while mis-characterizing the employment outlook for graduates (law schools are notorious for doing this), and large lenders create the illusion that huge loan outlays are perfectly fine for anyone who wishes to chase a degree, whether that degree will be marketable or not.

At the same time, education inflation adds hurdles that do not really make for better employees. Try to get into management at a big-box store, and you will be asked to confirm that you successfully completed a bachelor's degree. Twenty years ago, the requirement would have been a high-school diploma, a few years of experience, and a demonstrated ability to work with people. What are stores getting for their demands? A person who is a little bit older, maybe with a little more emotional development, and a broad, shallow exposure to such things as art history, music appreciation, Hindu philosophy, and kitchen chemistry (chemistry for non-majors who can't do math). Where a wildlife manager may once have needed a bachelor's degree for consideration, a master's now makes him merely competitive and even a Ph.D. will not do much to increase his chances of employment. The number of people with graduate degrees, even multiple such degrees, in many fields pretty much requires undergraduates to chase that higher degree to have any shot at meaningful employment in whatever field makes him happy.

When the person in question finally receives his graduate degree and has credentials sufficient to be truly competitive in his chosen career field, he must worry about salary contraction and off-shoring. A person can go through four or five years as an undergraduate, then three to six more years as a graduate, and then possibly do some post-doc work, and then discover that he's suddenly overqualified and will never be able to earn a salary commensurate with his education and experience level. Or perhaps he went to a school that wasn't top 25 due to grades or inability to pay higher fees, and therefore despite being just as good in his chosen field as a student from a "name" school (not knocking those generally, most are very good), he won't be able to compete with someone who can point to Harvard or Duke on his resume. I know I was frequently told by many I trusted that even though I might have had the intellect to get into a top school, I would be better served to go to a much less expensive state school and outperform everyone. How can we reasonably expect kids to know which advice sucks and should be disregarded? And apart from all this, in the background is the chance of recession that would foreclose on that chosen career upon graduation. Who can forecast that?

So here we are asking high school kids to foresee what career fields they enjoy and what the job markets in those fields will be like 10 or more years down the road, then telling them to shoulder so much loan debt that if they are at all wrong in their projection, they'll find themselves stuck at some point paying for something that no longer has any real market value. We tell them that there is no way to short-circuit the process, that they MUST have all these years of education in obscure topics, and that in the end "it will all pay off." We don't tell them that even if they do everything right, it may not all pay off. That's not really fair. Also not fair is that far too many kids get awful advice along the way from parents, teachers, guidance councilors, and others, and don't discover that the advice was wrong until they have spent irrecoverable years doing things the wrong way. What are they supposed to do when suddenly at age 30 they find themselves holding an unmarketable degree and six figures of debt? Some will have lucked out and found themselves a valuable commodity, but it's not like that for everyone.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Your comments after "Also not fair" are absolutely correct. Every HS and college counselor I've met
over the past several decades are basically unqualified. I know there are exceptions, probably we have several on DU, but they are very rare exceptions.

Add to that catalyst teachers/professors who don't have a clue about how to actually earn a days pay and you end up with college graduates who are unemployable and if employed, unhappy. :shrug:
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
38. that is a good analysis
but a scary one nevertheless.
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
39. Wow, you just described my life. I have a B.S. in Physics,
graduating magna cum laude. I also have master's in education. But, I made of few bad decisions based on very bad advice, and now I find myself working in a factory for $9.50/hr. Luckily, my student loan debt is "only" $27,000, rather than six digits.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-22-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #39
50. I have great admiration for people who are knowledgeable in the sciences,
maybe because my science education was so crappy.

Sorry this happened to you. Hope something better comes up.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
43. Bingo. In my field (biology) I can't even get an interview without a MS
I am a technician right now. My 10 YEARS of experience is not enough to move up. I lose out on jobs to recent grad students all the time, even though I have way more experience than they do. I am forced to work fulltime and go to school part-time because my employer (a state agency) WILL NOT PROMOTE ME. They say I have no experience at analyzing data and writing reports but when I ask to do that, they tell I cannot because "it is outside my job description". WTF?
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malakai2 Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. An MS doesn't make things much better
I'm a biologist for a Federal agency, and have been on a term appointment for three years now. I've sent hundreds of application packets for Federal, state, tribal, and local positions, many of them below my current pay grade. In the applicant pools for even the worst jobs (or rather, worst locations, such as rural western SD) are usually several people with doctorates, and the rest have at least one Master's, many of them also with at least several years of extraordinarily specific work experience, sometimes veteran's preference. When people holding Master's degrees are losing out to people with doctorates and years of experience for jobs at or comparable to GS-07 and GS-09, what's the point of trying anymore?

Two other people in my office were in similar circumstances recently. One started the year before I did, could not find a permanent position within the agency, and after hitting the four year limit for term employees, is unemployed. The other married a lawyer and took a similar job that pays much less, but keeps her in her field of choice. Both of them worked in positions that were planned to have been permanently funded, but that will now not even be filled with terms because the funding situation is so dire. I'm probably done at the end of March unless something miraculous happens. And to think all the advice I got as an undergraduate said that the job prospects in wildlife management would be strong...

If I had known it would be this way when I was an undergraduate, I would have chosen engineering and/or economics instead of biology and English literature. As it stands, I'm going back to school for a different degree, provided I can get some scholarship money to work with. So a few years down the road, I'll be another one of those "too many" people holding a doctorate, though not in the field of biology. If after that I still can't find a permanent, relatively comfortable situation, I'll try to become a corporate grifter. That way I can be a callous asshole and earn more money than I'm worth while contributing nothing of value. The last steps of a cathartic death march, if you will.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Well I was hoping for a federal job
when I got done with all this crap because my current employer does not appreciate me and I am not about to be a mere technician with an MS. I am already overqualified for a job a monkey could do (besides which my coworkers are complete assholes).

I was hoping for better news. Guess I am going to have to go work for a consulting firm. I do not want to compromise my ethics that way but I have talents that are not being used and I am just getting to damn old to be on the bottom of the totem pole. I guess I ought to go where the money is and to hell with my ethics. Still I have been told that once you work for a consulting firm, no one in this state agency will hire you back. I am not sure this it true but it frightens me if it is.

The thing is, I ABHOR business and corporations and the way they treat employees. I only ever wanted to work for some government agency because at least then I know the benefits will be good. In the private sector it is also far too easy to fire someone for being too old, as long as they say it was "for cause". I am getting to the age where age discrimination is a real possibility (in the private sector). But I also hate business as a general rule. And do not give a shit about profit.

I am thinking about California again actually. I'd have to figure out a way to go out there and take the tests but I know I won't be selling my soul to work there (even if it is expensive to live there) because the state of California generally cares about the environment (unlike Texas which is a rape and pillage state in regards to the environment).

Also I have noticed some states (Florida, Maryland) are not offering benefits even with advanced degrees.

Nobody told me it would be this difficult when I was in school. I wish they had. I would have been an accountant or something. At least I would always be able to find work there.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-22-08 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
49. Another idea our culture instills is that a college degree guarantees you a good, high-paying job.
Now, we are getting past that foolish idea, but when I was a young adult, early '70's, that idea was definitely out there, and believe you me, it wasn't true then either.

Great post. Please consider starting a thread with this.
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lurky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. You should know your market.
Getting a tenure-track position at a top research university is a long shot. At the department where I am studying, there were over 500 qualified applicants for a single assistant professorship last year. If you are the best of the best, then you have a shot, but how do you know whether you will be the best when you are just starting out? For certain fields, like computer science or economics, having a PhD can get you a good job in industry. My impression is that that isn't true for less "practical" fields, like philosophy or American studies.

Of course, if we were in it for the money, we would have all gone to business school instead of getting our doctorates. Really, I think most people who are crazy enough to go for a PhD are passionate about a subject and are primarily doing it for the love of knowledge. There is a really common attitude these days that the only reason to get an education is for the extra income. I think that's sad.
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. they say go into something that you are interested in.
But a lot of students are choosing majors that correlate with a high salary.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. "something that you are interested in" may qualify you for a FCFS spot in the unemployed line. n/t
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. The UNC system is really pushing for sciences and math.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Please see my msg to you. Math/science are wonderful choices. You probably won't become a
millionaire but you could easily become a Midas in self-satisfaction.
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lurky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. It's a higher risk, unless what interests you is accounting.
But if people were not willing to follow their bliss, we would not have artists, English professors, or philosophers. Or maybe it would be the exclusive domain of the wealthy, as it was in the age of "gentleman scholars".
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I don't disagree but IMO those who follow their dreams rarely dream of wealth. n/t
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. True.
Just a reasonable cost of living, which is not "the salary of VPs" as some would criticize of Gen-Y (and some of their criticisms are valid too...)
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
35. That's freedom for ya.
:shrug:
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-22-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #13
52. "FCFS?" Please elucidate. nt
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-22-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. FCFS = First Come, First Served n/t
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-22-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
51. True, but markets can change. Once it was SO easy to get a job in IT. nt
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
12. The number of doctorates in the U.S. have increased tremendously over the past five decades.
Edited on Sun Jan-20-08 07:09 PM by jody
I'm not sure the source article differentiates properly among the following doctorates. :shrug:

Doctorate

RESEARCH DOCTORATE IN THE UNITED STATES
Doctor of Applied Science (D.A.S.)
Doctor of Architecture (D.Arch.)
Doctor of Arts (D.A.)
Doctor of Business Administration (D.B.A.)
Doctor of Canon Law (J.C.D.)
Doctor of Chemistry (D.Chem.)
Doctor of Comparative Law (D.C.L.)
Doctor of Civil Law (D.C.L.)
Doctor of Computer Science (D.C.S.)
Doctor of Criminal Justice (D.C.J.)
Doctor of Criminology (D.Crim.)
Doctor of Design (Dr.DES.)
Doctor of Education (Ed.D.)
Doctor of Engineering (D.Eng.)
Doctor of Engineering Science (D.E.Sc., Sc.D E.)
Doctor of Environmental Science and Engineering (D.Env.)
Doctor of Fine Arts (D.F.A.)
Doctor of Forestry (D.F.)
Doctor of Geological Science (D.G.S.)
Doctor of Health and Safety (D.H.S.)
Doctor of Hebrew Literature/Letters (D.H.L.)
Doctor of Hebrew Studies (D.H.S.)
Doctor of Humane Letters (D.Hum.Litt.)
Doctor of Industrial Technology (D.I.T.)
Doctor of Juridical Science (S.J.D., J.S.D.)
Doctor of Library Science (D.L.S.)
Doctor of Literature and Philosophy (D.Litt. et Phil.)
Doctor of Medical Science (D.M.Sc.)
Doctor of Ministry (D.Min., D.M.)
Doctor of Modern Languages (D.M.L.)
Doctor of Music (D.Mus, Mus.Doc.)
Doctor of Musical Arts (D.M.A., A.Mus.D.)
Doctor of Musical Education (D.M.E.)
Doctor of Music Therapy (D.M.T.)
Doctor of Nursing Science (D.N.S./D.N.Sc.)
Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D)
Doctor of Physical Education (D.P.E.)
Doctor of Professional Studies (D.P.S.)
Doctor of Public Administration (D.P.A.)
Doctor of Public Health (D.P.H.)
Doctor of Recreation (D.Rec./D.R.)
Doctor of Rehabilitation (Rh.D.)
Doctor of Science (D.Sc., Sc. D.)
Doctor of Science in Dentistry (D.Sc.D.)
Doctor of Science and Hygiene (D.Sc.H.)
Doctor of Science in Veterinary Medicine (D.Sc.V.M.)
Doctor of the Science of Law (L.Sc.D.)
Doctor of Social Science (D.S.Sc.)
Doctor of Social Work (D.S.W.)
Doctor of Sacred Music (D.S.M.)
Doctor of Sacred Theology (S.T.D.)
Doctor of Theology (Th.D.)
Doctor of the Science of Law (L.Sc.D.)

PROFESSIONAL DOCTORATES IN THE UNITED STATES
Doctor of Audiology (Au.D.)
Doctor of Chiropractic (D.C.)
Doctor of Dental Medicine (D.M.D.)
Doctor of Dental Surgery (D.D.S.)
Doctor of Human Sexuality (D.H.S.)
Doctor of Jurisprudence or Juris Doctor (J.D.)
Doctor Liberalium Artium (D.L.A.)
Doctor of Management (D.M.)
Medical Doctor or Doctor of Medicine (M.D.)
Doctor of Music Ministry (D.M.M.)
Doctor of Occupational Therapy (O.T.D.)
Doctor of Optometry/Optometry Doctor (O.D.)
Doctor of Oriental Medicine (O.M.D.)
Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.)
Doctor of Pharmacy (Pharm.D.)
Doctor of Pastoral Theology (P.Th.D.)
Doctor of Practical Theology (D.Th.P., ThP.D.)
Doctor of Physical Therapy (D.P.T.)
Doctor of Podiatric Medicine (D.P.M.)
Doctor of Professional Studies (D.Prof., D.P.S.)
Doctor of Nursing Practice (D.N.P.)
Doctor of Veterinary Medicine (D.V.M.)
Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine (N.D., N.M.D.)
Doctor of Naprapathic Medicine (D.N.)
Doctor of Naturopathy (N.D.)
Doctor of Psychology (Psy.D.)
Doctor of Strategic Leadership (D.S.L.)
Doctor of Clinical Psychology (D.C.P.)
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I did not know that they had a doctor in Business Adminstration.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Yes, see Harvard D.B.A. link below. Problem is some DBAs are not very respectable as well as
confusion with DBA meaning "doing business as". :rofl:

http://www.hbs.edu/doctoral/programs/
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lurky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. The number of for-profit degree mills has increased too,
especially with the growth of on-line universities. I won't name any names, but we have all seen their ads on the web and on TV. I can't imagine a PhD from one of these places would impress many hiring committees.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. And every dean I know laughs about applicants with such credentials. n/t
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lurky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I don't doubt it!
And I feel for people who commit years of their lives and untold thousands of dollars to earning these degrees.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Agree, degrees that have little value in the market place and some/many/most holders don't
have the intellectual ability to contribute in their chosen profession that measures value exclusively on intellectual ability.

Tenured professors, department heads, and deans in the upper tier universities can tell the difference and are relatively ruthless in weeding out those who don't have intellectual ability.

It's possible for some of those doctors to find a place in junior colleges or bottom tier four year colleges aka diploma mills.
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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-23-08 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #21
59. Let us call it "Albequerque U." and leave it at that!
I dropped out (actually just haven't registered for any classes since 2003!) of the PhD program in history, which is one of the longest for anyone to complete historically, due to having to teach undergrads, master the historiography of at least three fields and then coming up with a dissertation topic and then producing something worth reading.


I was so fed up that I went to library school and got my MLIS in a year and a half, then an asst. professorship, but not a "real one," i.e., no benefits of actual professorship such as freedom to conduct my classes as I wanted, time off during the day for research and to work on research projects in which I was assisting or even catching up on the literature for production of new lit. The blasted dean would drive up in her Benz at 1 pm and then yell at us if we were doing something "unproductive" such as reading the catalogues the various academic presses had sent for consideration of purchase! We had up to four student workers sitting on their butts waiting to reshelf books and the dean wanted us to do manual location inventories of all bound works to occupy the day for us!

I was never so happy as the day that nasty brain infection led to hand in my ID and keys and say "consider this two weeks notice, vacation starts now."

The latest trend in academic libraries is to hire "technicians" at part time rates and no benes in order to get deserate MLISs to take the job in an off hand chance they will be on the list for hiring FT. Meanwhile students are begging for information literacy courses and tag teaming with the comp and history professors for their intro classes. Sick.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
27. Not everyone gets a degree so they can get a job. nt
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. these days that's a good thing
:o
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Knowledge is good. If you get a degree in order to get work,
you ought to think carefully about what subject you take it in.
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NJCher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
28. overproduction of PhDs?
from a census report:

"Also in 2003, 27 percent of adults age 25 and over had a college degree, another record."

So with less than a third of the people having a bachelors degree, we're overproducing Ph.Ds?

I think the solution is to put more PhDs to work--to change the workforce and the culture to value educated people.



Cher
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
41. I almost forwarded this to some of my grad school buddies ...
Edited on Mon Jan-21-08 05:21 PM by Lisa
... but thought I'd hold back until I see what kind of day they're having, in case I bum them out more!

I've been a sessional lecturer since not too long after I started my PhD. I managed to earn enough money to survive while I finished my degree -- and there have been times when I've been able to do all right without a tenure-track position, though it meant working my buns off, teaching at two different institutions simultaneously.

One thing I'm glad I did is cross-training to teach subject areas other than the ones in which I did my research. Not many people in my department are teaching both physical and human geography courses, and I've been able to pick up extra work that way -- though it does sometimes mean having to jump in, with only a week's notice before the start of term, if someone gets sick or bales out because of another job. Also, I've done guest lectures for a lot of people, and that's won me some goodwill.

I'm in the social/natural sciences, so not as specialized as some of the other disciplines mentioned in the article. I love the work, even if it doesn't pay me much, and some of my friends who've settled for jobs in other fields have been looking to get back into academia (so I'm having fewer regrets these days).

Recently I got some news that made me happy that I decided to stick around here, rather than looking for positions in other countries. If a planned new institute opens up in town, I might be able to get a part-time post there, and extra publications combined with my teaching record would give me an advantage when people start retiring in my department.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-22-08 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. you use way too many commas
just sayin'
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-22-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. hey -- I have to increase the length of my publications somehow! (n/t)
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-22-08 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
46. they over-produce college degrees, period
I cannot tell you how many degreed people I work with who are unable to write a coherent sentence.
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-22-08 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. I just got out of high school.
and my English teachers never touched grammar.
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JPZenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-22-08 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
54. In my field, a PhD is a negative
In my field, most professionals get a Masters degree. If someone applies for a non-academic job with a PhD, that is widely considered to be a negative. People in the field think that you are full of useless information, and should have spent that time getting practical experience.
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