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NEW SCIENTIST: Why doesn't America believe in evolution?

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arenean Donating Member (230 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 02:47 AM
Original message
NEW SCIENTIST: Why doesn't America believe in evolution?
Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals: true or false? This simple question is splitting America apart, with a growing proportion thinking that we did not descend from an ancestral ape. A survey of 32 European countries, the US and Japan has revealed that only Turkey is less willing than the US to accept evolution as fact.

Religious fundamentalism, bitter partisan politics and poor science education have all contributed to this denial of evolution in the US, says Jon Miller of Michigan State University in East Lansing, who conducted the survey with his colleagues. "The US is the only country in which has been politicised," he says. "Republicans have clearly adopted this as one of their wedge issues. In most of the world, this is a non-issue."

Article:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19125653.700?DCMP=NLC-nletter&nsref=mg19125653.700">New Scientist
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NavyDavy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 02:57 AM
Response to Original message
1. I like this guy......good article
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 03:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. Turkey's position a result of alliance US/Islamic fundies
Edited on Fri Aug-18-06 03:39 AM by tocqueville
http://www.qantara.de/webcom/show_article.php/_c-478/_nr-478/i.html?PHPSESSID=5869

I think that the US results are not due to the "separation of Church and State" as the article hints, but because of the lack of it. You don't have such a profound disbelief in science due to a new trend. Relating to plenty of other issues the American public is confused and has been for generations. Church and State in the US are mixed at all levels and the separation is mostly on paper. Which means that the "Church" (at least the the vocal sects) has a power it doesn't have in all other modern countries.

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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 04:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. Because the Protestants preach the inerracy of the Bible
I hope I spelled that right...

Anyway, I'm reading "American Theocracy" and the second section is scaring the shit out of me.

II Chronicles 4:2 contains an error.

"Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."

It is impossible to make a circle with a diameter of 10 and circumference of 30. Little thing called pi. The Bible has a provable error, and therefore is not inerrant. Oops!

Never mind that evolution is observable in microscopic organisms, and that diseases are becoming med-resistant due to evolution.

Maybe God did make the earth 6,500 years ago, and us as well. But if He did, He also made evolution, and He made sure that the universe LOOKED 12 billion years old and that dinosaurs ruled the earth 70 million years ago.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28King_James%29/2_Chronicles
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Actually, according to some accounts I have read,
around that time, pi was defined as three. Engineers, builders and mathematicians knew better, of course, but the highly prized knowledge of pure math was deemed as almost holy--too good for the commoners and, to keep them in their place, such larnin' was kept from them. The well trained and talented were also quite arrogant.

It was well known that there existed no real number ratio, using any numbering system available to them, that could define pi. We have no better definition today, other than cut and fit, to determine the relationship of circumference to diameter.
Some of the better texts that describe the history of the pyramids also bring up the point that, for a long time, pi was considered to equal three.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
24. Aha! you forget the Ancient Greeks :-)
The ancient Greeks knew it was greater than three. They figured it was somewhere between 22/7 and 223/71. The Babylonians used 25/8. The ancient Egyptians used 256/81.

I really think that man changed it to fit the perception of the perfect universe, where irrational numbers don't exist. I think Johannes Kepler had a hard time accepting why the orbits of the planets were elliptical instead of perfect circles because it clashed with his ideas of divine perfection and symmetry.

Note that the Christians, who redefined pi as equal to three, were running around in the Dark Ages, burning witches and heretics, while the Arabs maintained civilization and knowledge. And during those times the Church had a very heavy influence in affairs of state. And since it was largely the monks who did hand-copying of texts, that was essentially a chokehold on knowledge.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
39. That should be "fundamentalists", not "Protestants"
The majority of "mainline" Protestant denominations do NOT teach or believe in "biblican inerrancy".
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 04:34 AM
Response to Original message
4. Nobody actually believes in evolution
We know it to be a fact, in that it happens, but we do everything we can in an attempt to stop it. When I say believe, I mean participate in it. We believe in democracy, so we vote. We believe in the Democrat Party, so we support it. We don't believe in evolution, because there are 6.5 billion people on this planet. Maybe we would've evolved to those numbers, but we didn't. If humans were supposed to live to an average age of 75, it would happen naturally, but we didn't let it happen naturally, because we don't believe in evolution. What we humans do believe in is control and manipulation. Which is why I always enjoy the question; "haven't we evolved beyond such-and-such?" No, we haven't manipulated and controlled things beyond such and such. We stopped letting evolution do its job thousands of years ago.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Every time you choose the mother of father of your child, you participate
in evolution. Willingly or not. Knowingly or not.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
25. We've eliminated the need ot evolve
It's a topic that comes up in science-fiction stories on occasion, The Mote in God's Eye is one of them if I'm not mistaken. We've far outpaced the rate at which evolution can keep up with our changing lifestyle, so we simply adjust our living environment to suit ourselves. Central heat, central air, sunscreen, medicines, implants, glasses, etc.

The general premise is that the human being in the future will be basically the same as current humans because we will have eliminated natural selection. Things that would have killed us are now killed or fixed. Virulent new flu virus? We squash it before it has the chance to decimate the weak and ill and old. Predators? We just declare it a game animal and issue permits to hunters. Prone to cancer? Chemo and radiation. Bad eyesight? We'll zap your eyes with a laser. Balding and becoming less attractive to the opposite sex, thereby limiting procreation potential? Take a pill or get some implants.

I mean, when is the last time you actually had to fight for your food? How about had to kill your food yourself? All those combat and survival kills have mostly faded in the average person. I've taken a few pheasants in the Dakotas, but that was not for survival. Chris Rock had it right; went hunting on a full stomach!
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MaineYooper Donating Member (555 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. I don't agree- selection can not really be eliminated.
however, selection acts on populations, not on individuals, and over much larger timescales than what we can currently observe, especially, as you point out, in comparison to the speed with which our environment is currently changing.

Still, the mechanism is there- it's just going to select for different traits. We don't have to kill our food, or in general, go long time periods between kills (and therefore meals), so the physical aspects that made humans good hunters, or made our bodies good at storing food for long term are no longer advantageous, as they once were.

In fact there are models of diabetes and obesity that postulate that it is the change in lifestyle over such a short timescale that have led to the increase of these maladies. We can treat them, at least somewhat, so any selective force is not likely to be rapid, but nonetheless, if diabesity (the typical joined term for both phenotypes) is severe enough, it can impair the ability to reproduce- hence selection.

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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
28. "...We believe in the Democrat Party..." It's DEMOCRATIC PARTY!
Do not fall for this right-wing bit of business. There is no such thing as the "Democrat Party" -- dropping the "ic" is a slur designed to create a harsher sound and to make negative associations.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/articles/060807ta_talk_hertzberg
The New Yorker
THE “IC” FACTOR
Issue of 2006-08-07
Posted 2006-07-31
<snip>
There’s no great mystery about the motives behind this deliberate misnaming. “Democrat Party” is a slur, or intended to be—a handy way to express contempt. Aesthetic judgments are subjective, of course, but “Democrat Party” is jarring verging on ugly. It fairly screams “rat.” At a slightly higher level of sophistication, it’s an attempt to deny the enemy the positive connotations of its chosen appellation.
<snip>
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The Sushi Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 04:36 AM
Response to Original message
5. It's because we have more Neanderthals than the rest of the world
they didnt die out, they moved to america and became Fundies!
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Freedom_from_Chains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 04:48 AM
Response to Original message
6. I think the more important question is
Why does America need to believe, isn't facts good enough.
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 04:56 AM
Response to Original message
7. The problem is (again) in the framing and the totally
illogical, unscientific questions asked as well as the "pick two" type of answers they are looking for.
The issue is not whether or not evolution or creationism should be taught; it is the fact that creationism is not science and should not be viewed or taught as if it were.

Science, and the teaching thereof, is defined and limited by a certain, very narrow set of standards, terms, and qualifications as to what it is and what it is not, as well as a pre-qualification that it be as free from ideological sanctions as humanly possible.

Theology is not science and science is not theology--period.
Science class is for the teaching of science. There is no place for the teaching of other subjects except as they very narrowly pertain to science, such as a class on writing research papers.

Science is the description of reality without regard to ideology. If there is a demand for the teaching of creationism, so be it, but NOT as science or an adjunct to science.

These definitions should be the focus of the discussion, without all the hand wringing. Teach religion or philosophy if you must, but not as science.
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Poppyseedman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 05:30 AM
Response to Original message
9. Couple of problems here especially for a science publication
1. ....than the US to accept evolution as fact.

(Evolution is a theory, not a fact)

2 ....This simple question.

(Evolution cannot be boiled down to a simple question and get an correct answer)

3. widely publicised advances in genetics, including genetic sequencing, which shows strong overlap of the human genome with those of chimpanzees and mice.

(These same advances also blow HUGE GAPING holes in major parts of evolution as a fact, errr. I mean theory)

4. ...How would these people respond when told that humans and chimps share 99 per cent of their genes?

(Which only proves we are from the same material, not necessarily evolved from that material)


let's see how quickly I will be labeled a fundie for simple pointing out the obvious.

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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. He's a witch!
Burn him! Burn him!
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. We must first see if he floats...............
if he doth float then he is made of wood and thus.........A WITCH!!!!!

He DID turn me into a newt once. I got better though. ;)
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. For starts evolution is a fact!
How it works is the theory. The rest are distortion of the known facts.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. "Natural selection" is a theory.
Evolution is a fact.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
32. Facts are probabilities.
Probabilities developed according to the limits of our perceptions and tools of observation, as well as the mental models we "profile" observations by. Any scientist should be perfectly comfortable saying - the theory of evolution has been so sufficiently backed by research as to be considered a fact. But again, facts are probabilities.

In agreement with other posts, the framing of the question is ridiculous and betrays a core of ignorance. If asked whether I believe in evolution I would say no. Science offers us probabilities which need no belief - no suspension of critical thinking, that is. This is one of the vital mental attitudes that allows progress in science, where innumerable times all but proven "facts" or highly probable "facts" have been discarded and replaced by ones better suited to new observations, and more highly probable.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Just as well the question wasn't "do you believe in evolution?", then
It was: "Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals" with the options of True, False or Not Sure. The question is given at the beginning of the New Scientist article, and is confirmed as the quesdtion in the NYT report on this: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B06E3DB173EF936A2575BC0A9609C8B63

Strangely, the DUers who have criticised the framing of the question haven't actually confirmed they knew what the question was - they seem to think it was something like "do you believe in evolution?", presumably because of the thread title.

You may still think you'd have to answer 'Not Sure'. If so, what evidence might allow you to say 'True'? Is there anyting about the past you would say 'True' to?
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. It is a simple mental posture, but difficult to explain
The central problem is with the scientific approach to certainty and proof, which is quite different from the conventional approach.

A mathematician, for example, would say that mathematics is the only field which offers certain proofs, though these are only so within the framework of the field's axioms. Sagan in "The Demon Haunted World" agrees - "Except in pure mathematics, nothing is known for certain", also describing an "asymptotic approach to the universe...with the proviso that absolute certainty will alway elude us" (28).

The epistemology, or theory of knowledge, which underlays the approach of science to the natural world, allows that the information of the senses is our sole point of mind-to-world contact, and this contact is imperfect. This is one source of uncertainty regarding "facts", toward a judgement that knowledge of what is experienced can only be probable, and not certain.

Belief, then, however convenient, is a form of suspending critical thinking which is contrary to the goals and practice of science.

But I am not explaining this very well...Sagan does a very good job in the introduction to the book I quoted above. In college philosophy and history of science type courses it is also a reasonably common topic of discussion.


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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. So you would answer "Not Sure" to anything outside a formal system?
Would you say you are never sure of anything "beyond reasonable doubt" in the real world? If I asked you, say, your age, would you be unsure about that - given that it relies on a belief about the past?
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. "all existing documentation indicates 41, but proof remains elusive"
But seriously - to be sure beyond a reasonable doubt is not a difficult thing - it is only to weigh the probabilities of one thing and alternative explanations. To be "certain" is where belief comes into play and difficulties arise. If it can be shown that certainty is not in itself possible but is desired, then belief is applied - closing the mind to alternative explanations. This is entirely conventional, common and practical in day to day living. But the deeper you read into the history of science the more you may find this "closing of the mind" as a cause of excessive conservatism. The closed mind relies upon convention and arguments of logic, where science would value more highly evidence and observation.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. Thank you, Poppeseedman! That is the first thing that struck me about
this poll: its simplistic true or false framing.

"Do you believe in evolution?" is also simplistic and wrongly framed. Modern science is not a matter of belief. It is a matter of formulating theories for the purpose of PREDICTABILITY. These theories only incidentally "explain the universe." They are NOT final. They are working hypotheses. And if sufficient FACTS are accumulated to point to a DIFFERENT, more reliable theory--reliable in PREDICTING the behavior of things--scientists will drop one theory in favor of another.

There are ENORMOUS problems in our modern theory of science. One of them is that science often hasn't taken into consideration our very limited perception. We are like tiny little intelligent ants crawling around on our tiny little blue marble in a HUMONGOUSLY, UNIMAGINABLY GIGANTIC universe. We've learned to extend some of our perceptions with devices (telescopes, microscopes), and with imaginative constructs, but we are still extremely small, limited and myopic. Thus, we often encounter surprises. Weird objects in the cosmos that don't fit any known rules of physics. Bizarre creatures at the bottom of the sea that live on sulfur not oxygen. We are still in a VERY EARLY, exploratory stage of our own planet, with some very limited forays out to nearby objects. THINK of all that WE DO NOT KNOW. Have never seen. Cannot perceive with present instruments. Can't even imagine. If the universe were a football field-sized meadow, what we know of it is one molecule of water on one blade of grass.

We do have brains that reach out and try to fathom it all. But we're not very far along that path. We are the subatomic particles inside that one molecule of water, on that one blade of grass, trying to see both what we are and where we are, and trying to see outside of ourselves to that vast "other." That vast "other" is what defines us, really. What we DON'T know. And it is indeed vast--both on the microscopic and the macroscopic levels.

We can blow up at atom. But we still have barely a clue as to what an atom is. It appears to be swirls of nothing swirling around nothing. And if you "split" it, it blows up.

Get down below that level, and "things" become REALLY strange, like objects out of a magician's hat, that appear and disappear, and act across distances, and annihilate each other and become non-existent.

And the theories about all this change from day to day. One day you hear it's the Big Bang, the next day, nope, it's the Big Collapse; then it's String Theory. The thing that everything is made of--that tiny nothing--still blows up. We're stuck on that. We like that. Godly power to blow everything up. But we don't know why it forms rabbits or chrysanthemums or human beings. Or why almost all the big objects that we can perceive in the cosmos are round or in swirls. Do we understand gravity? No. Do we understand galaxies? We do not.

And a good part of the knowledge that we seem to be acquiring more swiftly with every generation results from research funded by corporations, or quasi-government/corporate entities, that have their own purposes of manipulating matter and making a big profit off of it--accumulating wealth. This has led to an extremely unhealthy social and natural environment, in which people catapult from "product" to "product," in swirls of polluted air and water, and never find happiness. And that's just to mention the more benign products--automobiles, toothpaste. The industry of science also creates horribly lethal weapons and "terminator seeds" and is now in the business of patenting the very elements of life.

The pure science of discovery is all mixed up with the science of profit. And science in general thereby develops a NEED to be believed in--a sort of dogmatic edge to it. To get people to buy things, you have to convince them that science has "improved" them. People have to BELIEVE in the "wonders" of science. It becomes almost a religion, with scientists as the new priesthood.

I think a lot of people have become deeply scared and almost crazy with the combination of an unhealthy social and natural environment--indeed, an environment that seems to be attacking us, literally, with global warming; and a social environment that has been ruptured into predator and prey. In some urban environments, we are little better off than ancient cavedwellers hiding from the leopard, and lighting fires (turning on our TVs) to fend off fear and alienation. No wonder that some turn to the old truths of established religions (science being the upstart quasi-religion, to some) for comfort and reassurance. Religions tell us who we are, or try to. They are often modern peoples' only link with the past--and in America that is especially true. In Europe, you have buildings and monuments around you that are thousands of years old, constant reminders of your links with the past. Often your family--your lineage--has been there, in that place, for an even longer time, almost forever. How different it is in most parts of No. America where a building is deemed "old" at 50 years or even younger, and is demolished, to make way for the "new." Throwaway buildings. We still remember not being here. Almost everybody's grandparents came from somewhere else. And it is quite fresh in the minds of newer immigrants. In America, the past is often ripped up behind you. My high school (in Calif) no longer exists. My college no longer exists. The vineyards and orange groves of my youth are gone. The miles of sand dunes at the beaches are paved over and crowded with condos. Stability and roots are often disdained in this ever-reinventing-itself country. Religion can become the rock or the tree you cling to, as the landscape is whisked away.

It's interesting that "belief in evolution" (i.e., attachment to the Enlightenment, science, reason? --if that's what this true/false question means) is strongest in the countries that have the highest quality of life. The Nordic countries and France. The U.S. quality of life--which never reached the heights of those countries--has significantly deteriorated, at a fast clip, under the Bush junta. And hope is often gone here, too. We have a permanent underclass, getting bigger every moment. We have stopped addressing environmental problems, as a nation. Universal health care is a distant myth. The science industries of pharmaceuticals and high-end medicine, and the allied insurance giants, have stopped that cold. And accompanying this social depression is fundamentalist religion that tells you, a) God loves you, if no one else does; b) you are special or superior; and c) you belong somewhere--in this church community. And it further promotes a sort of fatalism--the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, as it will always be; evil stalks the world, as it will always be; we will always have war--we must smite our enemies. No matter the contradictions--these rightwing beliefs are comforting.

The debate is not about evolution. It is about something else, something bigger. Possibly hatred of science, in its priesthood function as the "new religion." It cannot deliver happiness, as advertised. It has become a tool of profit and war. And although the fundamentalists can't see the contradiction here, either--that the science that they hate makes the war that they love possible--perhaps they are reacting, in an unconscious way, to the whoring side of science: its lies, its false promises, in the service of profit.

Science and religion used to be one. Pythagoras considered mathematics to be a religious endeavor. The Druids predicted eclipses and performed religious ceremonies, and were the repositories of vast stores of knowledge. Astrology--desire for connection with the stars--is the mother of astronomy. Scientists were called PHILOSOPHERS and were considered to be wise people--advisers to government, masters of many arts including medicine--and were expected to be more ethical and closer to the gods than other people. It is only later in human development that the functions of scientist and priest diverged. Has modern science become too narrow? Has it tried to make a quasi-religion out of this narrow, materialistic view--insisting upon "belief" in its theories? Has it alienated people with nuclear weapons, and oil spills, and air pollution, and spy technology and GMOs? Has it disassociated from wisdom?

And what of that vast, vast cosmos of Things That We Do Not Know? Is science too narrow, too compartmentalized, too bureaucratized, too corporate-driven, to address the really important questions? Why do atoms form THINGS--including us? Why are we conscious of this? Why do we see order everywhere, and try to create order? What is consciousness for? How is consciousness affecting our evolution? Is "social Darwinism" an adequate viewpoint? Why do we REJECT natural phenomena--such as letting the weak or the sick die or be eaten? Why do we seek to triumph over Nature? Why do we believe in God or in Gods? Why is this universal in human experience? And is there no room in our science classes for the why's of what we consider science? Why shouldn't the human NEED for higher wisdom be the subject of discussion in a science class? And why shouldn't the GOALS of a particular science be subjected to questions of ethics and wisdom? What is so frightening about this? Why NOT include Intelligent Design in a science class, since human beings SEEK design--and since the issue of what human beings seek is actually vital to every scientific inquiry? (Are we IMPOSING our designs upon the facts? Are we changing the behavior of electrons, or other objects, by HOW we look at them?)

I can understand being suspicious of the motives of POLITICAL rightwingers, and powermongers like Bush, and not wanting these malevolent people to dictate school curriculum. But they have seized and controlled the debate, haven't they? Have we considered that the SINCERE believers in Intelligent Design might have something to contribute to human advancement? Possibly even creative new lines of inquiry into what science is FOR? Or a more ethical and conservative approach to the IMPACTS of science on corporate behavior and on society as a whole?

We teach science in public schools, but perhaps we do not recognize that it IS a philosophy--a philosophy of materialism and rationalism that may be a skewed view of human life. And we don't teach any other philosophy! I repeat, science and religion were once one endeavor--and it was called PHILOSOPHY. We severed the two (--long story). And we may well be on the verge of PAYING for this severance, in the loss of our entire race, and all life on earth, in nuclear warfare or other destruction of our atmosphere. Science gone mad. Overly-rational science--science without ethics--in the employ of God-crazed fundamentalists. Where is the common sense--the enlightened humanism--between these two wildly opposite distortions?







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MaineYooper Donating Member (555 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
30. no, I won't label you a fundie...
Edited on Tue Sep-19-06 08:39 PM by MaineYooper
however, as a science publication, New Scientist was reflecting the fact that amongst those most qualified to understand it (meaning the biologists who have made it their life's work), evolution, or more appropriately put, descent from a common ancestor, is accepted as fact. I realize that there are exceptions (the Michael Behes and William Dembskis of the world), but you should understand that they are an overwhelming minority. Amongst professional scientists, this is not even a discussion. It is simply accepted. The popular press likes to play this up as a great debate, but the debate only exists outside of the research community.

That said, there certainly are many holes in our understanding of the mechanism of differentiation and speciation and how it has occurred. It has been said more than once that the arguments between proponents of various models of evolution (punctuated versus gradual, Fisher-Nei vs. Wright) are far more vitriolic than those between proponents of evolution and creationists. These holes and debates and arguments are why this is still an active and vital area of research.

Your third point is only partially correct- the advances blow holes in the theories, but not in the overwhelming acceptance that common origin is valid, again at least within the community of professional biologists.

Your fourth point is missing some information. It's not just that we share the same genes (material as you say), but also that they are arranged in the same ways along the genome (syntenic conservation), and that the amount of conservation correlates roughly with what we would generally hold as being expected given the differences between organisms. (At the genomic level, man and chimp are damn near identical, man and dog are very similar, man and any mammal are similar, chickens are more similar to mammals than fish are, and so on.) I guess you could posit that a creator liked the arrangement and decided to re-use it, but it's a more elegant explanation that this is a result of the divergent processes that have led us to the modern differences from a common beginning.

...edited for punctuation...
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
37. I don't think you understand how a scientific theory works. n/t
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
13. Come now, if humans evolved from apes, then how come
in "Planet of the Apes", there are still humans around?

:evilgrin:
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CanonRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
14. We're a very backward people, and apparently proud of it...
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. No, I don't buy this, CannonRay! Be careful about drawing
conclusions as to what the American people are like, as a whole, from such limited information--and/or from the fascist propaganda machine. I've been surprised time and again by how progressive and how anti-Bush the American people, if you look deeply at opinion polls over several years. I think we should be wary of granting this fundamentalist thing more attention and worry than its numbers really warrant--and also of Bushite MISINTERPRETATIONS and EXAGGERATIONS of it, and EXPLOITATION.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. a lot of them believe in a virgin birth and rising from the dead
not too hard to go from there
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erik-the-red Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
19. Fundamentalism is one of the main factors
I remember reading the article What Place for God in Europe? in the Christian Science Monitor. There's a flash graphic in the middle of the article which shows the percentages of Europeans who worship at least once a week. Only two nations have more than 50% participation - the Republic of Ireland and Poland. Most of the nations have less than 15% active attendance.

By contrast, I believe the number of Americans who worship at least once a week is significantly higher than 50%.

As has been said, Christian fundamentalism is much stronger in the U.S. than in Europe. Many of these persons erroneously believe that humans "came from monkeys." This was a myth started by, you guessed it, Christian fundamentalists in the nineteenth century. These myths die hard.

I remember my psychology professor asking my class approximately how close chimpanzee and human DNA were. She wanted to confirm whether the number was as high as 90%. A student immediately said, "No, it's more like 60%." Now, I'm the kind of person who has a brain shock when I hear an incorrect answer. I think, "Is that right? Nah." But, there was no brain shock on this occasion. I raised my hand and said, "It's more like 95%. It's shockingly close."

Hard to believe for some, easier to acknowledge for others.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
21. America Has a Strong Anti-Intellectual Class
which is one reason why American Mensa is so large. To be able to find some intellectually able and curious people to talk to is no easy thing. Mensa fills this need.

Where did all these Know-Nothings come from? I fear it is a legacy of the legal inequalities upon which the nation was founded: slavery, minority status of women, lording it over the new immigrants, abuse of power, genocide. America isn't a pretty country. It's rather like a horribly disfigured accident victim: normal left profile, utter destruction on the right.
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
22. I love Evolution dammit.
I hope to see more of it soon. Unfortunately, it won't be soon enough.

America seems to like it's fairy tales, and to be spoon fed spirituality. It's sad, there is so much more to evolution than "evolving from apes"

Evolution always seemed to me to fit nicely with the Christan concept of free will, as well as many allegorical creation myths. Some of the aboriginal peoples evidently had a greater grasp on the profound complexity of life than our current crop of anti-evolution fundamentalists.

Here's a neat website from Berkley, Evolution 101:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

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gula Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
23. How could they with a 2 time pres being a prime example of
devolution.
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Briar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
26. It isn't just the US. In the UK as well
belief in creationism is spreading like a plague. I spotted this in today's Guardian:

"Evolution forgot the democratic process

Barbara Toner

...
Opinionpanel Research reported this week that almost one in three students in the UK shuns scientific evidence on the origins of man, preferring instead the explanations offered by creationism and intelligent design.

They don't give a monkey's for Darwin's theory on natural selection. They have even less time for biological evidence linking all organisms to a common ancestor, thereby relating us not only to the gibbon, but also to flies.

Twelve per cent believe God made the world in the past 10,000 years and put man in it. Another 19% believe God's hand can be seen in all living things, whose existence is otherwise beyond our comprehension. Only 56% put their money wholesale on the theory of evolution. And the reason this is terrifying is that the beliefs of this 31% are rooted in extremes of religion that teach metaphor as fact, and we know where that takes us.

...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1853692,00.html

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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
27. Brain Washing. All you learned from Science is false The Bible is the only
truth. I am so glad that I am not one of the Brain Washed.
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cyr330 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
29. Remember Terry Schiavo?
I take this with a grain of salt. . . I knew quite a few of the anti-evolution "koolaid drinkers", but thankfully, my interactions with them were in my distant past. . . .

This idea that the public is "anti-evolution" makes me think of what the media said about the entire Terry Schiavo affair. From what I recall, an overwhelming majority of Americans thought that government should keep its nose out of the private, healthcare decisions of its citizens, but the media played it as if there were some kind of ideological struggle going on, splitting the country more along the lines of 50% vs 50%, rather than 90% vs. 10%. Let's not forget who the messengers are: the same people who claimed that GWB "won" the presidential debates in 2004. Need I say more?
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
35. what occupation do we allow laymen to supervise besides teachers?
The most ignorant parent can come in and dictate not only how their child is treated, but what content they can be shielded from.

In other countries and cultures, teachers are deferred to on education matters the same way a doctor is on medical ones and mechanics are on automotive ones. If you told your doctor place magnets on your stomach to cure cancer, at best, he would politely tell you to leave, and at worst he would sedate you and you'd wake up in straightjacket.

When the same thing happens to a teacher, you get called into the principals office and he says, "Now Bill, what's all this about chemotherapy, radiation, and surgery? You know this is a magnet believing community. Can't we find a way to treat our patients without violating their beliefs?"

This is one of the reasons why a lot of smart people flee K-12 education even though they can deal with the low pay, large classes, and pinhead administrators.
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