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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 03:58 PM
Original message
An idiot speaks on Intelligent Design
The Face of Evolutionary Design

Evolution as a Religion

By Robert Meyer

Tuesday 21st of December 2004 09:42 AM MST


Recently I saw some news segments that featured debate on whether the teaching of Intelligent Design should be curriculum taught along side of evolution in public school science classes. The individual taking the side of evolution was cornered at one point regarding the origin of matter itself. He repeated the often heard mantra that the universe and corresponding matter composing it simply have always existed. What a classic example of "blind religious faith", I thought, particularly for someone who persists in characterizing the issue as science versus faith.

The first time that I heard the concept of evolution presented as a religion or philosophy, I snickered at the audacity of such a proposition. But the more I have taken notice of how the arguments are made, the more I see the religious aspects of the evolutionary position.

Let’s draw an imperfect, but illustrative analogy to the position of the atheist above. Suppose I come home from work one day noticing that my neighbor’s long grass has been cut. I say to my wife that my neighbor must have cut the grass with his lawnmower. My wife demurs, saying that the grass cut itself. Are these equivalently sufficient explanations as to how the lawn was cut? In one case we have a purposeful and intelligent agent, using a specific means to accomplish a goal. In the other case, you have an inanimate object acted upon itself without purpose. And notice that the explanation of the neighbor cutting the grass with his lawnmower is meaningful, without any discussion of where the neighbor, lawnmower or the grass came from. In like manner, saying that matter has always existed, is not an equivalent argument to saying that the universe was created by God.

Another canard employed in this debate, is that evolution is "scientific", whereas ID is religious mythology. But does evolution itself qualify as a scientific theory, or like Creationism, is it a metaphysical theory? Anyone who has taken an introductory class in the Philosophy of Science, knows a few basic tenets regarding scientific inquiry. First of all, only observational or naturalistic evidence is accepted. If the inquirer asks a how or why question, then develops a hypothesis, it must be testable, and thus subject to falsification before it can move beyond that point. In which respects can any evolutionary theory meet this test? The evolutionist who says that the "fact"of evolution proves the non-existence of God, must derive such information outside the parameters of empirical scientific methods-- a realm that he claims contains no meaningful truth. Thus, such a claim is that of religious dogmatism. Any masonry regardless of its ornate design or quality composition cannot be stacked four feet in mid air without a solid foundation. Those who claim evolutionary theories can do away with the need for God are attempting to do just that philosophically speaking.


More at http://www.richardmullenax.com/?page=columns&art=32918

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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. Talk about your major strawman arguments this is classic.
"The evolutionist who says that the "fact"of evolution proves the non-existence of God"

Er, wait, I don't quite recall that the theory of evolution has as one of its corollaries the non-existence of god or gods. Somebody ring up Darwin and ask him.

They can do nothing except lie. The truth is not on their side.
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I noticed a few deliberate attempts to derail the argument..
Fact: evolution is borne out by the fossil record
Fact: evolution is observable in the lab

And ok.. the existance of matter. I don't pretend to know the origin of the base components of the physical world, but I can say confidently that because a rock exists doesn't necessarily require a big daddy in the sky to have forged it with his mighty hands.

And, you're right, I've never known an atheist (myself included) that believes evolution necessarily negates 'god'.
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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. some points
i'm all about "points" :)

intelligent design is not SCIENCE

evolution is

evolution theory is at a minimum incomplete and/or flawed

file under: big whoop. so is the theory of gravity and tons of other CONSENSUS science

evolution is CONSENSUS science. ID is not EVEN science in the first place

it is no more an 'alternative scientific theory' than a milkshake is an alternative form of filet mignon

that being said, sure there are some people who treat evolution like a religion. that's GREAT but it's kind of irrelevant to the fact that evolution IS science

how some people choose to incorporate it into their belief structure etc. is tangential to the fact that it is a scientific theory that has reached consensus due to its explanatory and predictive factors (among other things)

sure, there are SOME atheists who believe evolution proves god doesn't exist. so what?

iow, i agree with the point to some extent, for some people. evolution *is* a secular religion (not an oxymoron) for some people.

but that's irrelevant as to the validity of evolution.

which, so far, has held up quite nicely thank you




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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Even if you or I believe it does negate 'god'
this is not part of the theory. The claim is made that the theory of evolution is not scientific because 'an evolutionist' states that the theory negates god. An evolutionist could also claim that the theory negates newtonian physics, this evolutionist can have any opinion he wants, but that does not change what the theory of evolution actually states or does not state, and it makes no claims at all about things metaphysical. The argument is a deliberate lie.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Evolution isn't about disproving God
It's about finding the mechanism which makes life grow in complexity. ID is about finding an escape clause. The ID principle, stated simply, says that when a case is difficult to explain by evolution, then just quit trying and invoke God. In what way is it science to quit trying to use the scientific method? The author of this piece is an idiot.
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Cobalt-60 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Who said God couldn't use Evolution?
God doesn't have to perform a traditional magic show.
Maybe the old boy set up the initial conditions to come out the way he wanted then let it rip.
Evolution is a fact. It can be observed in many species around us.
The Big Bang is our best guess based on observations of the universe around us. And with our current tools we can't know who lit the fuse.
In 200 years Big Bang might seem as quaint as Flat Earth, of course. I assure you that the magic show won't take its place.
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POAS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. The writer seems to imply
Edited on Mon Aug-07-06 04:38 PM by POAS
that it is a foolish notion that matter has just always existed but simultaneously has no problem supposing a "creator" who has always existed.

I always wonder at the arguement that such a complex universe must have had a creator while not questioning that a creator would have to be infinitely more complex than the Universe to have even imagined it in the first place and yet this infinitley complex being did not itself rewuire a creator.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yeah-big logical fallacy there
If you say that the universe had to be created basically just because (which is what the complexity requires creation argument really says), then the same has to apply to the creator.
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1620rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Why are these people so insecure in their beliefs that they....
...have to attack science? Even the Catholic church accepts the fact of evolution as God's method of carrying out his Devinne plan. :eyes:
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POAS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Well you sounds like one a dem der Papists!
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