The real estate war (Israel's greed for land "that doesn't belong to us" )

[Karmadillo]

Excellent, excellent Haaretz opinion piece. You could listen to Bush, Olmert, CNN, and all the rest for 24/7 and not hear this much good sense.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=gideon+levy&itemNo=746698

The real estate war
By Gideon Levy

Last Update: 06/08/2006 02:11

This miserable war in Lebanon, which is just getting more and more complicated for no reason at all, was born in Israel's greed for land. Not that Israel is fighting this time to conquer more land, not at all, but ending the occupation could have prevented this unnecessary war. If Israel had returned the Golan Heights and signed a peace treaty with Syria in a timely fashion, presumably this war would not have broken out.

Peace with Syria would have guaranteed peace with Lebanon and peace with both would have prevented Hezbollah from fortifying on Israel's northern border. Peace with Syria would have also isolated Iran, Israel's true, dangerous enemy, and cut off Hezbollah from one of the two sources of its weapons and funding. It's so simple, and so removed from conventional Israeli thinking, which is subject to brainwashing.

For years, Israel has waged war against the Palestinians with the main motive of insistence on keeping the occupied territories. If not for the settlement enterprise, Israel would have long since retreated from the occupied territories and the struggle's engine would have been significant neutralized. Not that a non-occupying Israel would have turned into the darling of the Arab world, but the destructive fire aimed at Israel would have significantly lessened, and those who continued to fight Israel would have found themselves isolated.

The war against the Palestinians is therefore unequivocally a territorial war, a war for the settlements. In other words, in the West Bank and Gaza, people were killed and are getting killed because of our greed for land. From Golda Meir to Ehud Olmert, the lie has held that the war with the Palestinians is an existential one for survival imposed on Israel when it is actually a war for real estate, one dunam after another, that does not belong to us.

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[Truthiness Inspector]

1. Wow

Could you please elaborate on this:

Peace with Syria would have guaranteed peace with Lebanon and peace with both would have prevented Hezbollah from fortifying on Israel's northern border. Peace with Syria would have also isolated Iran, Israel's true, dangerous enemy, and cut off Hezbollah from one of the two sources of its weapons and funding.

[scarletwoman]

2. Since the poster isn't the author of the piece how can (s)he expand on it?

Go to the link and read the rest of the article. It goes into more detail about Syria further down.

sw

[Karmadillo]

3. Well, I could,

but I think you'd be better served following scarletwoman's suggestion.

[Truthiness Inspector]

5. In fairness

You said this article was "good sense," meaning you understand it and posted it, so I am asking you to elaborate on the part I quoted above.

[Karmadillo]

6. What part confuses you?

nt

[Truthiness Inspector]

7. The part I quoted

I thought that was obvious. Could you explain it to me, since you understand it?

[Karmadillo]

8. Do you mean you don't understand the entire passage

or are there parts that are at least somewhat clear to you?

[Truthiness Inspector]

9. You posted it

and then also called it "good sense." I asked for elaboration/explanation on the part quoted in my reply #1.

That means it isn't clear to me AT ALL, but it is crystal clear to you, but for some reason you are holding back on explaining it.

[Karmadillo]

10. Seriously?

You don't understand any of it "AT ALL"?

[Truthiness Inspector]

11. This:

Peace with Syria would have guaranteed peace with Lebanon and peace with both would have prevented Hezbollah from fortifying on Israel's northern border. Peace with Syria would have also isolated Iran, Israel's true, dangerous enemy, and cut off Hezbollah from one of the two sources of its weapons and funding.

[Karmadillo]

13. Well, to start with,

what do you think it means? You don't have to elaborate too much, but just do the best you can using your own words. That will give me a better idea of where you stand and how I can best lead you to a deeper understanding.

[Truthiness Inspector]

14. LOL, you posted it, not me.

Why is this so hard?

[cali]

15. If you're truly interested in

what that passage meant, please see my post #12. Otherwise continue playing your little game.

[Truthiness Inspector]

19. Be fair

who is playing a game here? Karmadillo posted the article, and called it "good sense." I asked for clarification on part of it, and have gotten the run around. Cali, your reply is the first one in good faith. I am not the one playing a game here. Re-read the thread.

[Karmadillo]

39. A real Truthiness Inspector

wouldn't pretend to have been siincerely asking for clarification. Courage, my friend.

[Karmadillo]

18. But you're the one who doesn't understand it. What good does it do you if

I just tell you what the author means? You need to be able actively construct knowledge in order to make sense of the world.

[cali]

20. You posted an excellent article

and then degraded your own thread. Too bad.

[Karmadillo]

38. I thought

you made your point better in #17. This seems like overkill.

[cool user name]

22. It's rather unambiguous.

It's pretty straight forward. Not sure why or how you could not understand it.

[cali]

17. and you should have.

It would have been far more adult than playing games.

[Ms. Clio]

34. egads

does the sanctimony ever stop?

[Karmadillo]

37. Well,

if Truthiness Inspector had really wanted an explanation, I would have been happy to have complied.

[cali]

12. OK

this has gotten silly: He's making some logical connections. Had Israel made peace with Syria by giving back the Golon Heights, there would be no disputed borders with either Lebanon or Syria, thus diminishing H'zbollah's raison d'etre for building up forces on the border, and reducing support for such activities on their part. He further surmises that peace with Syria would have acted as a wedge between Iran and Syria. Could he be wrong? Sure, but it's a pretty good guess as to how things likely would have worked out.

[Truthiness Inspector]

16. Thank you

It's an opinion piece, but I appreciate your reply because you put thought into it.

[cali]

4. a really good piece.

Thanks for posting it.

[Crunchy Frog]

21. K&R.

[NuttyFluffers]

23. a good read, thanks! n/t

[Oversea Visitor]

24. That is the hard cold reality

But no pro Isreal advocate will ever face this truth.

So they welcome to perpetual misery.
On and on it will go
50 years has pass a million if it need to be
But until you give back the land to the people they will fight and figth and fight.
Call them terrorist call them whatever you want
It does not change anything.

Solution is always there
But there is nothing anyone can do if one do not want to give back illgotten gain.

Just look at History of all the great empire
Maybe one get a clue.

[Truthiness Inspector]

25. What is Malaysia doing to solve the crisis?

Solutions must exist and we ALL have to fight and work for peace, stumble through crap, and try our damndest. Peace is a world-wide issue. There is no peanut gallery.

[Oversea Visitor]

27. Working through the OIC

Presently our PM is the chairperson in OIC.
They do not make news.
OIC is Organisation of Islamic Countries.

Oh alot of rants on Isreal in our news.

Also working with Asean and NAM

But all this little countries
Not newsworthy, speak a lot but noone listen.
So they work quietly.

When ready either Russia or China will do the speaking.

[Truthiness Inspector]

28. Thank you for your response

What is Malaysia's position?

Does Israel have the right to exist? In a peace agreement, should Israel be left alone?

[Oversea Visitor]

30. Bo DIPLOMATIC relation with Isreal

Does it give you a picture.

Isreal has right to exist. That is a given
Isreal will be left alone if they gave back all the lands they taken.

But no one can force Isreal to do that but US.
Isreal spoilt child.
US spoilt it rotten.

Just give back the damn land and GIVE PEACE A CHANCE.
That is all I can say.
But likely any Isrealies Leader going that route will get bum off.
That also is a sad truth.

So after 50 years of fighting I see more.
The reason why muslims countries are so anti Isreal is that that is about the only thing they can do
RANT RANT and RANT.
We see the unfair treatment cause the link is the religion. So stand by each other.
But lots of countries just avoid the problems cause US stand against it.
Just like what happen to Iraq. The world is quiet on this.
But things changing.
Now accept Russia and China as BIG BROTHER.
And Russia and China now laughing all the way to the bank.
Bush totally fuck up that is all I can say.

[Truthiness Inspector]

31. Israel has rightful claim to the land

where Israel is right now. There is nothing to "give back."

Where do you think Israel should be?

[Oversea Visitor]

32. Gee stand by the UN formation rule

West Bank and Gaza not Isreal land.
Already people there no given a choice under Balfour.

What more do you want.
That Isreal has right of land gain by conquest.
That is they occupy Lebanon you mean Lebanon now Isreal.
Where do you draw the fucking line?

You mean Iraq now part of US.
Gee NOTHING TO GIVE BACK
You mean people there are garbage
You mean they dont have right
You mean a bigger meaner guy can walk into you house beat the shit out of you throw you out then say house is his.
What kind of crap is that
NOTHING TO GIVE BACK ....... geee

[Ghost Dog]

41. Well said OV.

Legitimate Israel is inside pre-1967 war borders. UN Resolution 242. Some give-and-take on that basis could be negotiated. The Occupied Territories of the West Bank (and some of Gaza Strip) are just that: Occupied. The Settlements there are illegal under international law. To offer Palestinians the present carve-up (and confiscation of the best land) is completely unreasonable and unsustainable, and the same would apply if it turns out Israel really wants to hold on to or otherwise manipulate some of Lebanon.

If Israel does not give there can be no give-and-take, hope for no negotiated two-state solution providing security and a hopefully wealthy, healthy future for as many as possible.

Damn, if only so much Israeli determination and ingenuity (and wealth), and hopefully educated Arab, too, could be dedicated to alleviating water-shortage and alternaive energy and -agriculture problems in what's going to continue to otherwise be an increasingly desertified world in many regions...

[Oversea Visitor]

33. Well?

Does the BIGGER and Meaner Guy has the right to claim your house as his?

It is a simple question.

But the reality such mindset if allow to flourish can affect your future generations.
If you look closely at the US today you be surprise at the reality.
The prevailing mindset that has allowed this once great country to come tumbling down.
And if one is not careful there soon will be a country where the weak the powerless and the poor are nothing but garbage to the rich the powerful.
Where there are 2 laws, one for the rich and powerful one for the oridnary people like you
Where the cops can beat the shit out of you cause you garbage
And lick you arse and boot cause you rich and powerful.
Where went disaster strike you just garbage and its nothing more than boomtime for them.

MIGHT MAKE RIGHT. Better make sure you rich and powerful if you want to have this kind of country.

[Oversea Visitor]

29. Condi has ear full when she came

For Asean meeting.
After that abort trip to Beirut.
No much coverage about what went on
But hmmm Asian very shy of press.
Culture different I guess.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Ok I have to ask the damn obvious question

if Israel has a controlled press (like many round these parts keep yapping) how come this very critical piece was published?

It does fall in the same category as ... if all electrical grid in Lebanon has vaporized how come Beirut has lights in the middle of a bombardment?

After the non sequitours that will not be answered... good points made... but could have, should have, are not going to work now... and that road plan to peace that involved land for peace will be damn hard to sell.

by the way many Israelis have recognized that the poison pill was keeping the territories, but that falls in could have, should have, categories... and selling this will be damn hard.... good luck... though I can think of steps that can be taken by ALL sides that will lead to some peace... after all there are radicals on ALL sides that will not accept peace... not good for business I guess.

[Ghost Dog]

42. Israeli press/media appears to be no more controlled

(maybe, actually, somewhat less) than is that of the USA.

Having said that, the press/media in, say, Syria, Iran, Morocco and elsewhere is seriously controlled, although this doesn't seem to apply to the entire Muslim world. Then again, the press/media is not so sociologically important in many countries, where people tend to form opinions on the basis of more grassroots face-to-face human contact, cafe life, the street grapevine, etc...

[jspaddock123]

35. land and jews..

I find your comments in the current situation in Lebanon juvenile and irrational. It is always unpleasant to see an adult feeding on their you emotions.
I personally have no vested interest either way in the conflict in the Middle East, but I am objective enough to see how biased your comments are.
The truth is, that the state of Israel wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the brutality of Europeans.
Jews returned to, and conquered their ancestral homeland because of centuries of unremitting cruelty persecution brutality and eventually wholesale genocide at the hands of Europeans culminating in the mass slaughter at the hands of the Nazis with the assistance of a lot of European countries.

[Oversea Visitor]

36. Oh no

Please go read history
The Jews did not go back and conquered their ancestral home.
Isreal created by UN ..... BALFOUR.

2) Brutality of European :puke:
Please just one mad person call Hilter

Which planet you live on :(
Your fact all twisted.

Do try to use logic and facts when posting on DU please

[Karmadillo]

40. I sometimes find

my comments juvenile and irrational, too, but I suspect you're referring to the article I posted and in Levy's defense, his comments are anything but juvenile and irrational. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy reading them.

You might, by the way, consider the possibility you aren't quite as objective as you imagine.