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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 02:21 PM
Original message
A War Crime at Qana?
A War Crime at Qana?

By ORDE F. KITTRIE
August 5, 2006; Page A11
Mr. Kittrie is professor of international law at Arizona State University and served in the Office of the Legal Adviser at the U.S. State Department from 1993 to 2003.

(snip)

International law has three major prohibitions relevant to the Qana incident. One forbids deliberate attacks on civilians. Another prohibits hiding forces in civilian areas, thereby turning civilians into "human shields." A third prohibition, the proportionality restriction that Israel is accused of violating, involves a complicated and controversial balancing test. Geneva Convention Protocol I contains one version of the proportionality test, the International Criminal Court Statute another; neither is universally accepted. As a result, the proportionality test is governed by "customary international law," an amalgam of non-universal treaty law, court decisions, and how influential nations actually behave. It does not hinge on the relative number of casualties, or the force used, however, but on the intent of the combatant.

(snip)

At Qana, Israeli aircraft fired toward a building to stop Hezbollah from shooting rockets at its cities. The aircraft did not deliberately target civilians; but Hezbollah rockets are targeted at civilians, a clear war crime. U.N. humanitarian chief Jan Egeland last week called on Hezbollah to stop its "cowardly blending" among women and children: "I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this." If Hezbollah used Lebanese civilians in Qana as "human shields," then Hezbollah, not Israel, is legally responsible for their deaths.


(snip)

Israel's overall military goal is to survive attacks by enemies determined to annihilate it. Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah has stated: "Israel . . . is an aggressive, illegal and illegitimate entity, which has no future. . . . Its destiny is manifested in our motto: 'Death to Israel.'" Thus Israel is attempting to prevent Hezbollah from using its 10,000 remaining rockets, and to implement the requirement of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1559 that Hezbollah be disarmed. Meanwhile, Hezbollah and Iran -- which provides this terrorist group with arms, direction and over $100 million a year -- are in continual violation of international law. Their calls for Israel's destruction violate the international genocide treaty's prohibition of "direct and public incitement to commit genocide."

(snip)

Israel is acting in self-defense and avoided killing civilians, even giving advance notice by phone to the occupants of homes targeted for attack as Hezbollah hideouts. While Hezbollah deliberately maximizes harm to Israeli and Lebanese civilians, Israel puts its soldiers at risk to minimize Lebanese civilian casualties.

The track record of many of Israel's most powerful accusers -- including China, Russia and the European Union -- is not nearly as good at balancing civilian risk against military goals. China killed hundreds of peaceful Tiananmen Square protestors in 1989. It has for five decades occupied Tibet, slaughtering tens of thousands; and it vows to invade Taiwan if it declares independence. Russia has fought since 1994 to suppress Chechnya's independence movement. Out of a Chechen population of one million, as many as 200,000 have been killed as Russia has leveled the capital city of Grozny. Chechen rebels pose no threat to "wipe Russia off the map." All of the leading EU countries actively participated in NATO's 78-day bombing campaign against Yugoslavia in 1999. The military goal was to stop Yugoslavia from oppressing its Kosovar minority. NATO bombs and missiles hit Yugoslav bridges, power plants and a television station, killing hundreds of civilians. Yugoslavia posed no threat to the existence of any of the EU countries that bombed it.

(snip)

URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB115473619322627572.html (subscription)


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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. ahh, the wall street journal reveals the truth....
:rofl:
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. This guy mostly establishes that there's a lot of bad killing going on
not that Israel's is somehow better than everyone else's.

The thing is, it sounds like this guy's definition of a civilian area is reaaaaaaaally broad. Does he think that hiding anti-aircraft defenses in Dresden was a war crime by putting them in a civilian area, thereby justifying firebombing it? ...Probably!
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. Uh, Wall Street Journal = official U.S./Israel line. (nt)
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. What an impressive rebuttal, full of supporting facts
I am impressed

(not)
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. I wasn't aiming for "an impressive rebuttal". The fact that your article
comes from the Wall Street Journal -- an organ of the Estblishment if there ever was one -- speaks for itself. As an organ of the Establishment it will dutifully repeat the approved Official Narrative as dictated by the powers-that-be.

There's only so much pro-military/corporate/neocon/neoliberal propaganda I can take. I'm certainly not going to bother with the highly concentrated version that the WSJ peddles.

sw
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. Very first point is bullshit.
"Israeli aircraft fired toward a building to stop Hezbollah from shooting rockets at its cities" there is no evidence that Hezbollah was using this building for any military activities at all.

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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I have seen at least one counter argument
attributed to French sources which stated that there was a laucher placed on top of the building and that children were intentionally placed in it by Hezbollah, effectively staging the event. I don't believe it any more than I believe those who are screaming it was cold blooded murder.

What I would like to know is why the IAF targeted that buiding. Without that information including possible tactical imagery or video, its all just speculation.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Then why are you repeating it?
Edited on Sat Aug-05-06 02:59 PM by Warren Stupidity
We hashed this all out last week. There is no evidence, by which I meant credible evidence, that this building was a legitimate military target. The theory that the shiite population of Lebanon deliberately puts their children into harms way is an amazingly racist theory, especially considering that, once again, there is no credible evidence that they do this.

"I don't believe it any more than I believe those who are screaming it was cold blooded murder."

I'm sorry but those are not equivalent positions in some he-said she-said staged for tv debate. A war crime was committed when Israel targeted and bombed a civilian area. Without real credible positive evidence that this building was a legitimate military target we are left with the real credible evidence that does exist: the building was full of civilians and it was blown up by the IDF. Those are the facts. The rest is idle speculation.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Because it is an example of the crap spewing from all sides
We hashed this all out last week. There is no evidence, by which I meant credible evidence, that this building was a legitimate military target.
No idea who you mean by "we". Not sure what you would consider credible. Anyone who understands the fog of war would not reach such a conclusion based on what the information that is out there. While it certainly merits investigation when this is over, any conclusion at this point is unsupportable.

This is not a he said she said debate. since until the IDF puts out its version of events, all we have is one side of the story. Until then you don't have a war crime, all you have is indeed idle speculation.

A bombed out building with civilians is not prima facie a war crime. Read the accords and review relavent decisions
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. French sources?
Lebanese website blames Hizbullah for Qana deaths

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284514,00.html#n

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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Do you know much about the factions in Lebanon?
Edited on Sat Aug-05-06 03:03 PM by Warren Stupidity
Basically you are citing an Israeli source that cites a christian phalangist website that claims it has sources that indicate that Hezbollah set up the IDF to blow up the children of Qana. This is a circle jerk of rumor mongering by parties interested in mitigating the damage done by the debacle at Qana. Thanks for playing.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. It was similar data, attributed differently
and I don't give it any more credence than that of those screaming war crimes. All the data is not available. When it is, then and only then should assessments be made.
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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. WSJ? I dearly despise that institution
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. See reply 12, above (nt)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Bravo! What an articulate argument with so many facts
and reasoning, and history, a post so educational and instructive..

Do you have anything constructive to contribute to any debate at all, or is the only way you can reply is saying something about your opponent?

Let me guess, you flunked the debate club at school.. you flunked logic, reasoning, math, or simple comprehension tests.
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orwell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
17. All War...
...is a War Crime...

It is the complete and utter failure of politics...and the abrogation of the duties of citizenship.
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