Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Subverting the Constitution by Opposing the Flag

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Editorials & Other Articles Donate to DU
 
Gene C. Gerard Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 07:50 AM
Original message
Subverting the Constitution by Opposing the Flag
The Senate is expected to vote within the next two weeks on a
constitutional amendment to ban desecrating the flag. Last
summer the House of Representatives, in a vote of 286 to 130,
passed a resolution that would create a new amendment to the
Constitution allowing, “The Congress shall have the power to
prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United
States.” This was the sixth time since 1990 that the House had
approved a flag desecration amendment, only to have the Senate
reject it or simply fail to vote on it. But the Senate now
appears poised to erode our Constitutional right to free
speech and expression by approving it. 

Efforts to protect the flag at the expense of the First
Amendment have been a common occurrence during wartime. In the
Civil War, when Union military commanders took control of
Confederate areas they prohibited the desecration of the flag.
In 1862 New Orleans became the first Confederate city to be
occupied by Union forces. General Benjamin Butler was
commander of the Union army for southern Louisiana. He issued
an order that no flag other than the national flag could be
displayed, and that “the American [flag] be treated with the
utmost deference and respect by all persons, under pain of
severe punishment.”

William Mumford tested this order when he removed the flag
atop the New Orleans branch of the U.S. Mint. He dragged the
flag through the streets before tearing it into pieces and
handing it out to his fellow Confederates. General Butler had
him arrested and subsequently hanged for his act of
desecration.

Congress twice violated the First Amendment while attempting
to protect the flag during World War I. In 1917 Congress
passed a law making it a misdemeanor to publicly desecrate the
flag in the nation’s capital. A year later, Congress passed a
law requiring the termination of any federal employee who
“when the United States is at war…in an abusive or violent
manner criticizes…the flag of the United States.” Many state
legislatures also passed flag desecration laws. 

The Kansas Supreme Court ruled in 1918 that insulting the flag
was a crime. Montana passed one of the strictest flag
desecration laws during World War I. Over 200 residents of
Montana were convicted of disrespecting the flag during the
course of the war. E.V. Starr, after refusing to kiss the flag
as a sign of his patriotism, was convicted and sentenced to
ten years of hard labor.

Congress passed the first flag desecration law during the
Vietnam War, in the wake of anti-war demonstrations. In 1968
Congress passed the Federal Flag Desecration Law that
criminalized anyone who “knowingly casts contempt upon any
flag of the United States by publicly mutilating, defacing,
defiling, burning, or trampling upon it.” Shortly thereafter,
Sydney Street burned a flag after learning that a prominent
civil rights activist had been shot. Street told the crowd who
gathered around him as it burned, “…we don’t need no
[expletive] flag.” He was arrested and convicted under the new
law.

A year later the Supreme Court overturned his conviction in
the case of Street v. New York. The Court didn’t specifically
address Street’s burning of the flag. However, it ruled that
his verbal comments were protected under the First Amendment
right to free speech.

The Supreme Court finally addressed constitutional issues
concerning burning the flag in 1989. In the case of Texas v.
Johnson, the Court ruled on a Texas law that criminalized the
mistreatment of the flag, to include setting it on fire. The
Supreme Court upheld a Texas Court of Criminal Appeals ruling
that the law was unconstitutional. This effectively defined
burning the flag as a protected form of free speech. 

Congress was offended by this ruling and later that year
passed the Flag Protection Act. The legislation made a
criminal out of anyone who “knowingly mutilates, defaces,
physically defiles, burns, maintains on the floor or ground,
or tramples upon any U.S. flag.” The Supreme Court responded
to the new law in 1990 in the case of U.S. v. Eichman. In a
five to four ruling the Court found that the act violated the
First Amendment right to free speech and expression. 

The current effort by Congress to pass a flag desecration
amendment is largely attributable to the war in Iraq.
Supporters, which include such strange bedfellows as
Democratic Senator Diane Feinstein and Republican Senator
Orrin Hatch, insist that it’s needed in order to show respect
to veterans. They hope that the two-thirds majority needed to
forward the amendment to the states for ratification will be
too fearful to vote against it and run the risk of being
labeled “unpatriotic” or “un-American” during an election
year. But the Senate should reject it. 

The flag represents all that is noble about America. It
symbolizes our rights and freedoms, and it should be treated
with respect. But it’s merely a symbol. To outlaw the right to
free speech and expression, especially regarding desecration
of the flag, would be a mockery of the freedoms and liberties
our veterans fought for and defended. 

 


 
 


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for that little history lesson
But my question would be; If the amendment is passed what do those that feel it violates the right to free expression do?
It seems that all they could do is desecrate the flab in public as an act of civil disobedience.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gene C. Gerard Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Reply
I think you are correct. The only response if it became an amendment would be to defy it by civil disobedience. In doing so, of course, there would be a penalty of some sort.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
XelKarin Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Civil Disobedience
I think you'd see a lot of civil disobedience if this became an amendment. I wouldn't be afraid to do a little jail time to show my respect for this country and it's flag. There are worse things, of course, than jail time. I wouldn't put it past this administration to disenfranchise those who do violate the amendment. I think that would be for the courts to decide, though, so we wouldn't know until someone was actually convicted and we would have to be careful. Wouldn't it be their wet-dream to be able to prevent everyone from voting except for the right-wing fundies?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Interesting about the civil war
Seems to me the people most likely to support this amendment would also be the most likely to fly the Confederate flag. How times change. And whilst I don't normally comment on typos, "desecrating the flab" made me laugh. I had visions of DUers daubing slogans on slack-jawed Republican lardasses and then running away as the Repugs waddle after them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VP505 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Here is a part of an Email
I received that you might be interested in and my answer to it:

The Supreme Court has overturned a law which prohibited flag burning. This law was passed by the Congress in response to the Supreme Court's opinion in Texas vs. Johnson. The ruling made the burning of the American flag a legitimate exercise of free speech.

While I believe we must protect the right of every American citizen to speak freely, there is a difference between speaking freely and desecrating the American flag. In my opinion the act of desecrating the American flag goes beyond the mere expression of a point of view; it is a violent act against the symbol of our Nation.

I have the deepest reverence for the United States Constitution, and I do not believe it should be amended casually. However, in this case, I believe the American flag and all it represents deserves the protection of our laws. Therefore, I have decided to support a constitutional amendment that would require due respect for this great symbol of freedom.

Thank you again for your comments. I hope you will continue to keep me apprised of the issues most important to you.

Sincerely,

Pete V. Domenici
United States Senator

PVD: AM

As disgusting as I find flag burning Senator, your opinion on this issue makes the United States seem no better than some tin horn dictatorship and contradicts every excuse this President uses for continuing our occupation in Iraq. The BIGGEST difference between the USA and other countries is our ability to protest against our government without fear of retaliation, your support for this amendment will help destroy that security. How can we as a country claim freedom from Government oppression when the very freedoms the first amendment protects are being destroyed by political game playing from the supporters of this failed Presidency? You know as well as I do that flag burning amendments are nothing more than an effort to improve the Presidents approval rating with his base. You insult the intelligence of your constituency with phony rhetoric and meaningless claims of reverence for the Constitution with your support for this kind of legislation. What's next Senator, a trip to Gitmo for those who speak out against this President???

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. Respect for veterans my ass!
It disrespects us to pass a constitutional amendment of this nature.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. Concretizing a symbol is contrary to our well-being.
Edited on Thu Jun-15-06 01:28 PM by Pacifist Patriot
Who is the Patriot and valued citizen here?

Person A: Recycles, volunteers at a soup kitchen, pays his taxes, participates in an Adopt-a-Road program, writes letters to the editor to try to save a local swamp from developers, calls his congressmen in support of universal healthcare and in opposition of drilling in ANWR, and burned a flag at an anti-war protest.

Person B: Watches Faux News Channel, flies an American flag 365 days a year, (had one on his car after 9/11 until it was in tatters), practically has an aneurysm when he sees the pandhandler at the corner, writes letters to the editor complaining about liberal bias on the front page, doesn't know the name of his congressman, thinks the people in his neighborhood who recycle are aging hippies, spouts foam at the thought of anyone burning a flag.

Okay, hyperbole and theoretical citizens I know.

But my point is that I cannot abide the hypocrisy in protecting the symbol while destroying the people and land which it is supposed to represent. Hey Congress, [rotect our environment and human resources and then you can debate the flag, alright?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
secular humanoid Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I second that!
"I cannot abide the hypocrisy in protecting the symbol while destroying the people and land which it is supposed to represent."

Idolatry is unproductive.



Peace
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EmperorHasNoClothes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. Oh, the irony
That they're trying to pass an amendment to prevent desecration of the flag, which itself is a symbol of the very freedoms the amendment would restrict. Isn't that, in effect, back-door desecration of the flag? I personally think that the ideals represented by the flag are just a bit more important than the flag itself.

It's funny how whenever the Right tries to pass a constitutional amendment, it's always one which restricts our rights, rather than guaranteeing them. I think if they were around 200 years ago, we wouldn't have a document called the "Bill of Rights" - instead it would be a "Bill of Wrongs" (or probably just the 10 Commandments).

It's the same mindset that simply can't comprehend how someone could support the troops but oppose the war. They just can't comprehend that, while I would never burn the flag myself, I will fight to defend the right of others to do so.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1620rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yeah, I must have seen fifty people burning flags on my way to...
..work today :sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. And a very minor piece of irony....
The only "legit" way to get rid of an old or tattered flag is to burn it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hraka Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
23. Back door desecration, back door draft.
Lot of back door stuff going on in that party. (I know there's a gay joke in there somewhere but I can't get it together.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
9. Flags, Nobility, and Old Chestnuts.
I couldn't disagree with this more:

"The flag represents all that is noble about America."

Answer me this: If the flag represents all that is noble about America, would desecration also entail it being flown by people who have desecrated that nobility with ignoble purpose? Could George W. Bush fly that flag? Given all he has done to trample noble principles and ideals, could flying that flag be the same as fashioning it into a diaper and taking a nice stiff dump in it?

A flag is not noble, nor does it represent nobility. For if it does, it should only be treated with respect if the people who hold it noble also hold its ideals noble. The only people I see wrapping themselves up in the flag are those who find our freedoms, rights, and traditions as nothing more than obstacles to be overcome, antiquated concepts which eschew order, inspire free thought and act, and a pantload of other heinous crimes against the regime.

To treat the flag as noble is to submit to another cult, another religion. People are or aren't noble, not their iconography.

That they're still trying to pass a flag-burning amendment is the moldy old chestnut that has gone far beyond its prime.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. Protect the Flag but dump the Constitution! Hypocrites and whores
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FighttheFuture Donating Member (748 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. How ironic, the GOP promotes idol worship, idolatry, for ...
that is what these flag admendments really are!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Auggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. It's GOP election year fodder,
nothing else.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hraka Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #12
24. Whoa, I thought I was the only one
who thought of it that way. I don't even recite the pledge of alliegance anymore.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
15. Ok, call me nuts but....
Edited on Thu Jun-15-06 06:42 PM by Dr_eldritch
As I recall, growing up as the son of blue-blooded New England Republicans, I was taught that it was a statute that the only means ever used to dispose of the flag of The United States of America was to burn it.

I was even taught, in the Boy Scouts no less, that should the flag even brush against the ground or the floor, it must be cremated.
This was the deference to the very symbol which represented America that we paid to the flag.

And now it appears we will no longer be able to pay it even that respect.

What times are these...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cyr330 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
17. "It's needed to show respect for veterans"?
That sure would make a cat laugh. . . . That might be one of the stupidest statements I've ever read. Maybe we could show some respect for veterans by not cutting funding for VA Hospitals and not sending soldiers to wars based on a pack of lies. . . . Now THAT would be respectful.

By the way, Diane Feinstein is a fucking asshole. . .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
left is right Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
18. I maintain that some of the most vile desecration of the flag
comes from those that still insist on flying the confederate flag. The Southern Rebellion was treasonous, pure and simple. If the amendment passes, flying the confederate flag should carry the same punishment as burning the stars and stripes, harsher even.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. I agree. We should ban the Confederate Rag
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kurtyboy Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
19. If this passes, I will seek out a flag to burn, every single day.
on oay it might be the toothpick-mounted beauty that came off of someone's sandwich and was thrown into the trash can.

Another day, perhaps the shower shoe made in China with the flag's image poured into the material.

The next day? Maybe one of those tattered, faded SUV window-mounted rigs I can find alongside the freeway after only a few hours of searching. Or maybe a shirt I can find on the rack at the Goodwill, or a bumpersticker with a big old splat of birdshit on it.

Because, you know, all of those instances are reverent examples of respect, and my destruction of them would be a criminal and unpatriotic show of contempt for veterans (oh yeah, I'm one of those too...).

If I had been told, when I took my oath, that the thing I was protecting was a piece of cloth, I'd have reconsidered volunteering. NO. I was dedicated to the protection of the ideals embodied in the Constitution, which are in fact bigger than the Constitution itself. I was dedicated to my neighbors, my countrymen, and the basic human rights of all people.

As someone else on these boards pointed out, my oath did not have an expiration date--I will always be sworn to protect freedom. Sometimes, the way to do that is to go ahead and burn the flag. I'll wait for the Senate's next move.

Kurtyboy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
20.  i live in republican hell- i live in the home town of st ronald
today the republican paper came out against this flag amendment. yes the home town paper of ronny reagan and fat denny the fixer`s regional office.

when this was brought up several years ago the leader of the ww2 veterans,who i may add,was a very, very conservative republican, said one flag day---"we have a lot of flags but we have only one constitution"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hraka Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Great quote!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
confrontationclaws Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
22. Simple rule regarding the constitution:
if an amendment does NOT begin with "Congress shall make no law..." IT DOESN'T BELONG IN THE CONSTITUTION. It's a "negative" document, people--it doesn't "give" rights--it keeps the government from taking them away. Once that gets turned inside-out, we're history.

Don't forget, sovereignty lies with the people, not the government. They serve at our (dis)pleasure.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu May 02nd 2024, 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Editorials & Other Articles Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC