NYT Bob Herbert: Kerry 'almost certainly' won Ohio in 2004

[drm604]

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/NYT_Bob_Herbert_Kerry_almost_certainly_0612.html

In the 2004 presidential election, Senator John Kerry (D-MA) "almost certainly would have won Ohio if all of his votes had been counted, and if all of the eligible voters who tried to vote for him had been allowed to cast their ballots," writes columnist Bob Herbert for Monday's edition of The New York Times.

From the NYT article:

Republicans, and even a surprising number of Democrats, have been anxious to leave the 2004 Ohio election debacle behind. But Kennedy, in his long, heavily footnoted article ("Was the 2004 Election Stolen?"), leaves no doubt that the democratic process was trampled and left for dead in the Buckeye State. Kerry almost certainly would have won Ohio if all of his votes had been counted, and if all of the eligible voters who tried to vote for him had been allowed to cast their ballots.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/NYT_Bob_Herbert_Kerry_almost_certainly_0612.html

Of course, this is not news to most of us but the story is getting out there.

[saltpoint]

1. Bob Herbert is rock solid. If he didn't think RFK's piece was right,

he'd say so.

Does anyone now if Herbert is picked up by the Columbus DISPATCH, the Cleveland PLAIN DEALER, the Cincinnati ENQUIRER, and other Ohio papers?

I like that Herbert is making it possible for some people who read his column to begin the week with the impression that the Bush campaign cheated to win.

Also, over the last 2 years Herbert's Iraq columns have been excellent.

[DemReadingDU]

22. Dayton Daily News

occasionally prints Bob Herbert's articles

It will be interesting to see if the DDN will print his latest column as they had an unfavorable opinion op-ed on Saturday to RFK's article...
http://www.daytondailynews.com/opinion/content/opinion/daily/0610rolling.html

[saltpoint]

23. Thanks for that, DemReadingDU. And good for the Dayton Daily News.

Montgomery County there went for Kerry-Edwards, didn't it? Maybe the Blackwell/Rove operation couldn't penetrate the Dayton area as successfully as it did the rest of SW Ohio.

I am a real soft spot for your area. 'Am a graduate of the Wasson Piano School there, many years back of course.

And of Ohio newspapers, the Daily News holds its own, especially against the Cincinnati Enquirer.

And once in a while, you just can't beat a pizza from Vic Cassano's.

[PegDAC]

68. Vic and Mom's

They also had a location in Troy. :9 Only place I ever heard of with a peanut butter pizza. When I was in Arizona the service manager at Saturn of Tucson was Vic's nephew.

There really were problems in the rural Miami Valley counties. I lived in Concord Southwest precinct from the time I was 1 until I was a month away from 18. Never, ever, EVER was there a 98.55% voter turnout, which would mean that only 10 registered voters didn't show up at the polls in 2004. When I was living there, it would have meant that only 6 registered voters disn't show up. I knew of 6 on my STREET who didn't vote. So those numbers are totally impossible.

[saltpoint]

73. Alright! Vic & Mom's in Troy, Ohio. I love it.

And I hear you on the real funny results in some of those rural counties in Ohio.

I think RFK, Jr. got it just right in that Rolling Stone article.

Kerry-Edwards won. Bush-Cheney cheated.

[Cha]

78. Peanut Butter

Pizza!? Gross! :P

[drm604]

33. That op-ed attacks the least strong of his arguments

and ignores the rest. :grr:

[On the Road]

37. That's What Happens in Debating a Public Issue

The case has to be limited to persuasive arguments. Claims have to be substantiated. You can be right and still lose the debate.

[ladym55]

79. In Akron, we've heard NOTHING

The Akron Beacon Journal has completely ignored Kennedy's article, and Herbert's column (which often appears in the Beacon) I'm guessing won't be picked up. You see, the ABJ thinks the election in 2004 was JUST fine. In fact, they ran an editorial today saying that there shouldn't be a PROBLEM with Blackwell running the election and running for governor. They think the changes in voter registration are just peachy. Here's the link: http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/editorial/14787418.htm

I suspect many folks in the Akron area have NO idea the Robert Kennedy Jr. even wrote an article on the election because NO ONE here is covering it.

:grr: :mad: :banghead:

[saltpoint]

86. Shame on the Beacon Journal. That article is interesting and well-written

to boot. It ought to be available for everybody to have a look at.

Per another DUer's prompt, I wrote an email to NPR's Diane Rehm at WAMU in Washington, DC this morning, suggesting that she invite RFK Jr onto her program for a discussion of the 04 Ohio vote.

A letter to the Beacon Journal would at least alert readers that the editorial board appears to have made a decision to withhold a story from their consideration.

[drm604]

2. Kicking for the non-insomniacs

This needs one more recommend. I think it's important that this story is getting out there.

[chemp]

3. I'm your huckleberry

rec # is in the books. Too bad all the votes aren't.

[drm604]

6. "huckleberry"

chemp,
I actually had to look up the phrase "I'm your huckleberry". I got your gist, but I was unfamiliar with the phrase. I found a good explanation for anyone else as clueless as myself.

http://home.earthlink.net/~knuthco1/Itemsofinterest1/huckleberrysource.htm

"Huckleberry" was commonly used in the 1800's in conjunction with "persimmon" as a small unit of measure. "I'm a huckleberry over your persimmon" meant "I'm just a bit better than you." As a result, "huckleberry" came to denote idiomatically two things. First, it denoted a small unit of measure, a "tad," as it were, and a person who was a huckleberry could be a small, unimportant person--usually expressed ironically in mock self-depreciation. The second and more common usage came to mean, in the words of the "Dictionary of American Slang: Second Supplemented Edition" (Crowell, 1975):

"A man; specif., the exact kind of man needed for a particular purpose. 1936: "Well, I'm your huckleberry, Mr. Haney." Tully, "Bruiser," 37. Since 1880, archaic.

The first sentence in the final paragraph of my quote is obviously the sense in which chemp was using it.

On Edit: Fixed up my mangled and misleading sentences.

[chemp]

38. Doc Holliday re: "Tombstone"

One of Dalton gang, drunk on his ass shooting his gun in the air asking if anyone is man enough to challenge him.
"I'm your huckleberry" chimed in a just as drunk Doc Holiday.

[CatWoman]

57. that was one of the best quotes in that movie

:D

[shrike]

90. Another one:

Doc Holliday: "He's my friend." (After being asked why in the world he's going along with Earp on this quest.)

Questioner: I've got lots of friends.

Doc: I don't.

[Vidar]

4. K&R

[livvy]

5. He brings out some great points, too, and brings the focus on Blackwell...

and the voter supression that took place.

"Mr. Kennedy's article echoed and expanded upon an article in Harper's ("None Dare Call It Stolen," by Mark Crispin Miller) that ran last summer. Both articles documented ugly, aggressive and frequently unconscionable efforts by G.O.P. stalwarts to disenfranchise Democrats in Ohio, especially those in urban and heavily black areas.

The point man for these efforts was the Ohio secretary of state, J. Kenneth Blackwell, a Republican who was both the chief election official in the state and co-chairman of the 2004 Bush-Cheney campaign in Ohio — just as Katherine Harris was the chief election official and co-chairwoman of the Bush-Cheney campaign in Florida in 2000.

No one has been able to prove that the election in Ohio was hijacked. But whenever it is closely scrutinized, the range of problems and dirty tricks that come to light is shocking. What's not shocking, of course, is that every glitch and every foul-up in Ohio, every arbitrary new rule and regulation, somehow favored Mr. Bush.

For example, the shortages of voting machines and the long lines with waits of seven hours or more occurred mostly in urban areas and discouraged untold numbers of mostly Kerry voters."

[Botany]

7. I live in Columbus, OH

'bout time ..... the data and evidence has been there for day one.
Do I hear a train? Oh, look there is the media sitting in the train crossing ....
do they see the train? Are they going to move?

[Kolesar]

8. No one has been able to prove that the election in Ohio was hijacked.

[bemildred]

9. Seems more like "reasonable suspicion" that the election was hijacked.

Or "beyond a reasonable doubt", or something like that.

It is fascinating to me that there are so many that don't want to even consider the idea, in a country like the USA, where election rigging and dirty politics has a long and illustrious history, that the 2000 and 2004 elections were rigged and "managed", when that ought to be the default assumption.

We seem to have a sort of "Mary Poppins" theory of electoral politics that assumes that politicians and their minions would never even consider cheating to remain in power, whereas all the evidence is that politicians are professional dissemblers and manipulators, dishonest to the core.

[Botany]

10. I can

I saw it with my own eyes I heard it with my own ears.

Also bush/ Cheney 04 paid Sproul & associates 10 million $s. Much of it
for Ohio. He is thug.

In Hocking County a worker for Triad election systems told BOE members
to post cheat sheets on the wall.

The fact that 99.5% of all voters in certain precincts in Miami and Lucas County
voted has been proven false.

The data is there end of story .... and if we can get subpoena power more will come out.

[IndyOp]

11. Botany - Thank you for saying your truth -

what you witnessed over and over and over and over and over. When the truth comes out it will be due to the determination of Ohioans who decided that they would not allow the lies to stand. You and modmom and mopaul and Fitrakis and Wasserman and Phillips and Tubbs Jones and Kucinich and...

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[oldtime dfl_er]

18. Yep, I agree

Thank you, and keep on saying it!

please sign our guestbook: www.ThankYouRFK.com

[Botany]

35. ... give us a free press and there would thousands of voices about 04.

If the 1/10,000,000 chance that you have not seen this.

A little of what I saw and heard in Ohio.

http://www.thousandreasons.org/get_article.php?article_id=13



"They" haven't found one fault in this report so "they" muddy the waters w/
both sides did stuff and have their "friends" in the media bury the story.

[PegDAC]

69. and Conyers! n/t

[AuntiBush]

76. You Go, Botany!

:thumbsup: Truth to power!

[IndyOp]

12. Truth Suppression #12. Require skeptics to solve the crime completely.

The 13 Techniques for Truth Supression

Strong, credible allegations of high-level criminal activity can bring down a government. When the government lacks an effective, fact-based defense, other techniques must be employed. The success of these techniques depends heavily upon a cooperative, compliant press and a mere token opposition party.

1. Dummy up. If it's not reported, if it's not news, it didn't happen.
2. Wax indignant. This is also known as the "how dare you?" gambit.
3. Characterize the charges as "rumors" or, better yet, "wild rumors." If, in spite of the news blackout, the public is still able to learn about the suspicious facts, it can only be through "rumors."
4. Knock down straw men. Deal only with the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Even better, create your own straw men. Make up wild rumors and give them lead play when you appear to debunk all the charges, real and fanciful alike.
5. Call the skeptics names like "conspiracy theorist," "nut," "ranter," "kook," "crackpot," and of course, "rumor monger." You must then carefully avoid fair and open debate with any of the people you have thus maligned.
6. Impugn motives. Attempt to marginalize the critics by suggesting strongly that they are not really interested in the truth but are simply pursuing a partisan political agenda or are out to make money.
7. Invoke authority. Here the controlled press and the sham opposition can be very useful.
8. Dismiss the charges as "old news."
9. Come half-clean. This is also known as "confession and avoidance" or "taking the limited hang-out route." This way, you create the impression of candor and honesty while you admit only to relatively harmless, less-than-criminal "mistakes." This stratagem often requires the embrace of a fall-back position quite different from the one originally taken.
10. Characterize the crimes as impossibly complex and the truth as ultimately unknowable.
11. Reason backward, using the deductive method with a vengeance. With thoroughly rigorous deduction, troublesome evidence is irrelevant. For example: We have a completely free press. If they know of evidence that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF) had prior knowledge of the Oklahoma City bombing they would have reported it. They haven't reported it, so there was no prior knowledge by the BATF. Another variation on this theme involves the likelihood of a conspiracy leaker and a press that would report it.
12. Require the skeptics to solve the crime completely. For example: If Vince Foster was murdered, who did it and why?
13. Change the subject. This technique includes creating and/or reporting a distraction.

[RawMaterials]

13. 13. Change the subject. This technique includes

creating and/or reporting a distraction. 9-11 ?????

[EVDebs]

41. No one has been able to prove the existence of God either

But we see the handiwork daily...

BTW, the DOD dropped internet voting because it wasn't 'secure'

http://www.computerworld.com/printthis/2004/0,4814,89902,00.html

yet domestically modem-connected voting was allowed for. Why is that ?

[Kolesar]

45. I am just quoting Herbert as reported in Raw Story ... eom

[IndyOp]

52. Oops - You were just quoting Herbert as reported in Raw Story...

:toast:

If you had included :sarcasm: it would've helped me understand that you did not agree.

[aquart]

50. Really. What would constitute "proof"?

[maryallen]

53. I believe that's what Conyers' investigation and ...

by extension, what Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.'s "Rolling Stone" article was attempting to do.

Hundreds of people gave personal testimony concerning the '04 Election.

Choose whom you are going to believe.

For me, the people who stood in line for 10-12 hours and cared enough to testify to that account, are the most believable and certainly, contribute evidence to the proposition that the election was stolen, hijacked -- pick your terminology, but it adds up to FRAUD, any way you look at it.

[lies and propaganda]

67. i think thats total shit

no one needs to 'prove' it, just look at the county by county numbers.

Would you belive it only if the msm told ya, cause that aint never gonna happen.

Its soooooooooooooooooo fucking obvious when each county has say 5 registered of each, and yet the repugs got 322 votes and something the Dems got two. Fictional numbers but thats how every county was. Ohio is the new Florida.

[eridani]

74. Because we have been forbidden to look at the primary data

If I, an analytical chemist, told you that there was 1 part per million benzo(a)pyrene in your drinking water, why would you believe me? The reason is that all my data, from sample chain of custody, to raw chromatogram data, to calculation steps, is available for anybody to inspect.

If you doubted me and asked to see my data, and I told you "No, you can't see anything; it's a proprietary secret," what would you think I was trying to pull?

[LynneSin]

14. This just upsets me even more - At John Kerry

Because he promised up to the election that he would see to it that every vote was counted. And yet when I woke up the day after the election - he had conceded.

Hell, I'll support Hillary in the primaries before I support John Kerry. But at least Al Gore had the balls to fight it out even when we knew he had won Florida but was fighting an uphill battle

[rosesaylavee]

17. Respectfully, LynneSin, it has taken this long

for the corporate-stream media to even get to this point and even begin to contemplate there is a problem. IMO, Kerry had to concede as the evidence was buried and concealed. I understand your anger - I had it too for a long while. Kerry and others are fighting it in the courts last I heard and the truth will come out hopefully in time for the election this fall.

Thank g*d for TIA and RFK Jr.

Peace.

[LynneSin]

19. I know but there was some proof there

Kerry didn't want to be "Sore/Loserman"ed like what happened to Gore & Lieberman when they fought 4 years earlier.

Better to have tried and failed than to never have tried at all

[marmar]

44. And for John Conyers....

whom they all reference a lot.

[rosesaylavee]

48. Absolutely... Conyers is really the one responsible

for this information staying alive. Forgive me for leaving him off my list!

He is a true American Hero.

[disndat]

40. It's a BIG mystery why Kerry

conceded even before all the votes were counted, even over the protest of John Edwards. Not only did he conceded too early, he pulled out all his lawyers hired for the purpose of standing up to any suspicious problems that might arise learned from the lessons of the Florida '00 fraudulent election.

[Totally Committed]

43. A mystery? I agree... but, mystery or not,

I still feel that concession as viscerally as if he had come to my house and slapped me in the face in person. We'll never know why he did that -- or at least why he did that the way he did.

TC

[LynneSin]

46. As soon as I heard him do that I went outside and removed my bumpersticker

I was so ashamed that he didn't even try. I'll support Kerry again if he get's the nomination but I have a hard time supporting him the primary because we know the same shit will happen in 2008 and we need a fighter!

[geardaddy]

62. Do you like my tinfoil hat?

I've got three words for you about Kerry conceding before a fight: Skull and Bones.

[karynnj]

80. Lynne

Herbert doesn't say that Kerry could prove this in a court of law. In the op-ed, he speaks of voter suppression in 2004 in Florida and Ohio. His call is the need for fixing the problem.

Nothing is said here that Kerry hasn't said. Kerry spoke of voter suppression and long lines as early as January 2005. The problem is that votes not cast can't be counted.

Gore was down 537 votes, Kerry about 118,000 votes - not the same at all. Additionally there were punch card votes that could be looked at and counted if clear - The situation was totally incomparable.

I thought you were for Biden anyway - if so Hillary is likely closer than Kerry to your positions anyway.

[mojowork_n]

15. Finally!!

You'd have thought this was business as usual, banana republicans being banana republicans -- the scamps -- for all the reaction it got. Except for the assistant publisher of the Seattle paper, who made a personal apology for not having commented. Maybe Greg Palast's book coming out at about the same time has helped, too.

[still_one]

16. Problem is Kerry himself did not think he won Ohio

otherwise he would have fought. In fact Edwards DID want to fight for it, but was over-ruled by the Kerry group. How can we expect to win anything if we don't fight

[BeFree]

25. We will win this...

...because we are fighting. The effort so far has been a grassroots effort and the roots are deep and strong. Being without leaders has made us tougher and required us to develop the skills needed to survive.

Now comes our time for flowering and later the fruiting. Its coming on, and can't be stopped.

[robbedvoter]

27. really? Have those machines been replaced? The people in charge

of miscounting votes in 2000, 2002, 2004 puniched? Ther Dem party voted any bills to make elections veryfiable? How are we fighting that will change 2006? What didn't we do in 2004 that we're doing now?

[still_one]

28. absolutely. Why should blackwell who is running for govenor

in Ohio be in charge of the voting process. That alone signals problems

[still_one]

29. I like you spirit, and believe the process is starting

not only are incumbents being challenged, but grass roots efforts have started

it just doesn't happen overnight

[robbedvoter]

26. What made Edwards stop wanting to fight? TO THIS DAY.

That chestnut is almost as ridiculous as 'we need to win by a large margin so it won't be stolen"
Why isn't Edwards mentioning "stolen election" today?

[McCamy Taylor]

31. Edwards wanted to fight, but he had to follow Kerry's lead.

[robbedvoter]

64. WHY? And why not fight now? Why keep mum now?

Who told you he "wanted" to fight and how much sense does this make in light of his subsequent silence and passivity on the matter? Is someone holding Edwards bound and gagged in some basement since Nov 4 2004?

[karynnj]

81. Has Edwards ever publicly said this?

I see it posted all the time - but have never seen a quote from Edwards.

[johnnie]

20. I wish this would be headline news

It is disheartening living here and being looked at as a red state. Even though I live in Cuyahoga county and it went clearly blue, it seemed beyond belief that bush won Ohio. It pisses me off that it seems to be "business as usual" here and this isn't pissing off the right people.

[Seedersandleechers]

21. Every time

I read about the rigged election I get a gnawing pain deep within my abdomen. Is it just me?

[xxqqqzme]

54. nope - California is about 2

be florhioed. steroid boy's 'feel good' (twins - kindergarten cop) movies are showing up w/ increasing frequency (as they did during the recall). Someone said he was on a Sunday morning 'news' show?? The rethugs started running mud slingers the day after the primary. I fear Angelides will not be able to catch his breath; he has to immdiately jump in.

[robbedvoter]

24. Any comment, Johns?

[emlev]

30. Remember "won Ohio" means "won the presidency"

Ohio's electoral votes, when properly assigned to John Kerry, would have given him the presidency. In case you forgot.

[goclark]

32. No one seemed to be listening to Conyers and all the rest

of the patriots, I am praying that KENNEDY will turn the tide.


One thing for sure, Kennedy would not have written the piece without the aid and support of his Uncle Teddy.

So, Kerry had to give the approval as well.

Let's keep the pressure on Blackwell and all the other CRIMINALS in the ROVE/CHENEY/POPPY White House.

[karynnj]

82. Kerry is quoted in the article

So he clearly knew about it and at least was not against it - or there would be no quotes. Kerry also has spoken many times about the suppression - which if you look at RFK jr's Ohio chart is what makes the numbers work. (The point is that this estimate would not be sufficient legally - they were votes not cast. This was cheating, but unfortunately not against the law.)

[mephie00]

34. This won't change anything...

In 2000, the thousands of disenfranchised black voters was known. The thousands Jews for Buchannan was known. Katherine Harris's 'corrected' votes was known. The arbitrary vote counting deadline (Which the Supreme Court said was unconstitutional but then enforced anyways) was known.
And now we have similar stories from Ohio. Come 2008, there should be more effort to prevent a repeat of Florida or Ohio.

[PegDAC]

70. One solution

Carbonless form. Stubby pencil. Two sets of boxes. One copy in one box, other copy in the other box. Second set of boxes to be secured in, for instance, a bank vault in case it is needed to verify the initial vote count. Verifying vote count to be conducted by a neutral third party, such as non-partisan group in another state (e.g., Oregon counts Ohio). A little more work perhaps, but it might just work.

[nebula]

36. 20 Amazing Facts About Voting in the USA

1. 80% of all votes in America are counted by only two companies: Diebold and ES&S.


2. There is no federal agency with regulatory authority or oversight of the U.S. voting machine industry.


3. The vice-president of Diebold and the president of ES&S are brothers.


4. The chairman and CEO of Diebold is a major Bush campaign organizer and donor who wrote in 2003 that he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."


5. Republican Senator Chuck Hagel used to be chairman of ES&S. He became Senator based on votes counted by ES&S machines.



more:
http://nightweed.com/usavotefacts.html

[WildClarySage]

39. Why aren't people taking up arms over this?

I keep hearing that we need the second amendment right to bear arms against a tyrranical government- and it don't get much worse than stolen elections.

[jarnocan]

42. Our democracy should count! OUR CONSTITUTION should matter!

NY times link http://64.226.238.78/PA/bh/bh210.shtml BU**SH** is "making a mockery" of our democracy and our constitution
http://articlesofimpeachment.net/ please check this out as well.


http://jarnocan.blogspot.com

[mirandapriestly]

47. Rawstory next to the New York Times

that's what I like to see.

[aquart]

49. Republicans are thieves. Republicans steal.

[robinlynne]

51. k&r number 45!

[cprise]

55. Rebuttal to Salon article...

A Vast Political Misfortune



Or Why Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. is Correct in His Assessment
of the Late 2004 Election (which was sadly murdered by the G.O.P.,
may it rest in peace). And Why Salon.com’s Article Attacking Kennedy is Wrong.


http://www.yuricareport.com/Campaign2004/AVastPoliticalMisfortune.html

[Vektor]

56. Blackwell must go. The e-voting machines must go.

First and foremost...election reform has to take place.

[fearthem]

58. GOD, please help us! Is this going to happen again?!

I feel like it's widely known but people who are able to effect change seem to be paralyzed. Of all things, this needs action to protect democracy -- what will it take to get rid of Diabold and others who are posed to cheat us again??!! If our Democratic leaders do not get on top of this and direct monies needed to investigate, use the rule of law, they do not deserve to be elected! We discuss this all the time on blogs but is it being challenged in court, getting the press it must have? I think we must stop talking among ourselves and start calling, writing our representatives, demanding change.

[McCamy Taylor]

60. We need to march for the vote like MLK Jr and the Sufragettes.

The Voting Rights Act has not been enforced in 6 years, since W. took office. State legislatures and officials are now openingly passing laws and making decrees that violate the Voting Rights Act, secure in the knowledge that Al Gonzales will rubber stamp them and even go to court to help defend them if they are challenged.

We have all been disenfranchised. We are all women without a vote. We are all Black living in Jim Crow. We are all American Colonialists being taxed without representation.

How did those people solve their problems?

[fearthem]

72. I agree that it's going to take something drastic as you describe!

[McCamy Taylor]

59. I wonder if they hacked the primary to get a yankee at the top of ballot

A southerner like Edwards would have immediately recognized the kind of election fraud that was imported from Dixie into Ohio, since it is old school in the south. Kerry, being a New Englander could not conceive of the kind of organized election fraud that is required to disenfranchise an entire segment of the population, so he decided that what it could not have happened, even though all the evidence showed that it did happen.

Edwatds could accept reality because it shattered no illusions. This left him better prepared to battle. However, Kerry was too much a Boy Scout to face the truth. This is the meaning of the art I did immediately post election, the piece I call "Requiem for a Candidate"

http://www.grandtheftelectionohio.com/050221.htm

[robbedvoter]

65. Um, so if Edwards understood it so well, why not enlighten us too?

Why allow all dems in this country to be branded as "losers", why allow the "values" voters in red states BS to permeate the news, all the calls to dems to reinvent ourselves in the freepers image? Why not come out with this useful experience that left him so very well prepared - for what again? Another run? Before coming clean? I don't think so.
They both betrayed us - stop trying to make Edwards betrayal smell like roses. Shit is shit.

[karynnj]

83. It actually made Edwards look worse

if he saw it, could prove it and said nothing.

In fact, even RFK and Herbert are NOT saying they can legally prove Kerry won Ohio - Kerry himself has spoken of the voter suppression since Jan 2005. As with Gore and FL, Kerry likely knows that on election day more people in Ohio went out with the intention of voting for him. Cheating got in the way.

Kerry has spoken about the need for election reform in the states.

[kpete]

61. The NYT - YES!!!

and thanks Bob Herbert!!!

This article made my day...

Thanks!

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[byronius]

66. Formerly Tin Foil Hats. Currently The Bandwagon.

[Up2Late]

71. I only have one word.

DUH!

:banghead: :argh:

[AuntiBush]

75. Kicked to Keep It Visible a Bit Longer.

Senator Kerry. Should be President Kerry and prior to that, President Gore.

Thank you Raw Story, NYT Bob Herbert and an extra :kick: for Bobby Kennedy, Jr.

[Cha]

77. Gore and Kerry have an

exclusive Presidents in Exile Club being cheated out of their rightful place by a chimp and his deadly minions.

[Emillereid]

84. Are we going to let them do it again in 2006 and 2008?

We should begin forming election brigades to have people at every polling place who would be able to fix any kind of problem including 'not enough' voting machine and computer glitches, etc -- and we must insist on no machines without paper trails!

[Senator]

85. The words "Never-Elected, Never-Legitimate" need to be used...

...whenever the never-elected bushkid or his never-legitimate regime is mentioned.

Yes, especially among ourselves. You never know who might overhear.

Yes, in LTTEs. Make them cut it out.

Yes, for the rest of our lives.

This is how we get the American People off the hook. By a constant reminder that they've been taken out of the loop.

--

[goclark]

87. STICKIE TIME again: "NEVER ELECTED,,RepubliCONS stole 02,04

Now it's time to kick DIEBOLD out the door!:

Take back America!

[robbedvoter]

88. hear, hear! NEVER ELECTED, NEVER LEGITIMATE!!

[Felty_Tipdish]

89. One thing is certain here ...

... Kerry almost certainly almost won Ohio. Of that, we can certainly be almost certain.