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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:00 PM
Original message
The God Worm (PZ Meyers)
This is taken from PZ Meyers' response to a commentary regarding the relationship of the Democratic Party with faith in America.

Pointing out that some people manage to overcome the handicap of superstitious thinking to live admirable lives doesn't change the fact that it is superstition; nor does it excuse the fact that religiosity has become a de facto requirement for political advancement in this country. Where the article completely flops is in its failure to consider its premises…and here's the central one, the big enchilada, the rotting hole in the center of all of the arguments of religion defenders.

But the problem isn't with religion. The problem is that, somehow, we've allowed religion to be defined by the stupid and the warped, resulting in stupid and warped religion at war with all things rational and humane. But religion doesn't have to be that way.


That's backwards. The problem is that we have a well-regarded institution that is practically a mandatory component of public life that demands that people believe in the unseen and unknowable, that insists on an exemption from critical thought, that routinely proposes nonsense and expects its adherents to swallow it hole on the basis of traditional authority. O'Brien writes as if critics of religion think the only flaw in religion is biblical literalism, and that we think all religious people are fundamentalist kooks. This is incorrect. I think it's obvious that even the most rabid fundamentalists pick and choose which parts of the Bible to worship, and pluck out whatever turd fits their inclination from that foul nest of inconsistencies; and I don't care whether the religion is some soft and fuzzy grab-bag of noncommittal platitudes that fosters all kinds of humane and charitable activities. It still bears the damning necrosis at its core.

The problem is faith.

Faith is a hole in your brain. Faith stops critical thinking. Faith is a failure point inculcated into people's minds, an unguarded weak point that allows all kinds of nasty, maggoty, wretched ideas to crawl into their heads and take up occupancy. Supporting faith is like supporting people who refuse to be vaccinated: they're harmless in and of themselves, they may be perfectly healthy right now, but they represent fertile ground for disease, and they represent potential severe damage to the social compact. When you're in a culture that worships Abraham's insanity, you're fostering the nonsense that enables the Son of Sam.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/06/the_god_worm.php

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Not all religion and spirituality is based solely on "faith"
which I don't think has ever really been addressed by so-called scientists who scoff at all believers. Most people I know have had a valid mystical experience; I don't talk of such things because skeptics never believe in them and usually wind up calling people names who talk of them. I know of threads here at DU about mystical experiences that have been hijacked by skeptics and atheists, putting down anyone who wished to talk of such things. It has gotten so bad here that many have quit posting and have set up their own discussion boards elsewhere where spirituality and mystical experiences can be discussed without disruption.

I will also add that basically equating faith (and by extrapolation any religious or spiritual belief) as nothing more than a form of insanity doesn't bridge the gap between progressive people of faith and those with no faith. I really see it as a tool for the religious right to use to show their followers that Democrats are, indeed, Godless and therefore never to be trusted or voted for.
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. What is a 'valid mystical experience'?
I wouldn't call you names over it, and also I do recognize that ultra-ordinary experiences do occur--it's just that my explanation for such would involve transient excitations within the brain... not something supernatural.

Talk about such things to your heart's content, but don't expect everyone to "respect" your interpretations. Try as you might, and even if you're successful, making the state of being "Godless" into some kind of negative is just wrong (and every bit as egregious as any attacks you may have suffered at the hands of Atheists). In fact, being godless is just a sign of intellectual honesty, courage to face the unknown alone and a perfectly rational point of view.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Your whole thought process is so different from mine
we might as well be creatures from different planets. Atheists here as a rule don't respect any form of mysticism, even if it is described; more than once the condescending attitude of people who think that any form of ultra-ordinary experience is plain silly has simply turned people off.

I don't think the state of "Godlessness" is "negative"--but I do see the condescending attitude of people who call themselves "rational" thinkers is counterproductive as far as winning people over to the Democratic Party. Unless you think that saying people of faith really have some sort of mental disease is going to get you massive amounts of converts to progressive causes.

Interesting that you say godlessness is a sign of intellectual honesty. Perhaps it is with you, but I've found in debating many atheists here that they are less than intellectually honest when it comes to science. One fellow I was talking with who claimed to be a scientist himself said, for example, that Newton's theories were proven by Newton's own experiments; no one needed to have a belief that his ideas had some merit and therefore needed to be proven by someone else. I thought this sounded odd, so I talked with a scientist friend of mine, a person who is respected in her field, and the first words out of her mouth was that the poster was anything but a scientist, and that something was not considered scientifically proven until independent researchers had verified the hypotheses. I've also had atheists here claim that scientific research is always objective, and that there are never results that are "fudged", something that even this non-scientist knows to be a crock, as the recent Korean cloning scandal has shown.

Finally, my concept of Reality is that there is only one Being; It is all particles, known and unknown, all the space between such particles; all actions, all scientific laws; it is a living, evolving creation, something including and yet far far beyond human thought processes. One of the wonders and joys of life is to observe the process of Reality unfolding. You face the unknown alone, in your concept; in mine, I embrace it and know that I am a part of it. I can respect where you are, for that is your path, which is wholely and totally rational to you-after all, that's how you have evolved. My evolution-and path-are different than yours. Heck, it is different from many believers out there. But though my path is different, I do not claim it to be superior-how can I when it is just one of many paths, all of which make up Reality? I feel that by being able to understand where someone is coming from, even if I don't agree with it, and treating it with respect, I can change some hearts and minds when it comes to polticial objectives. I just don't see how your viewpoint on things is really going to reach the same outcome.

By rejecting those who have a God concept and saying your rational concept is superior, how is this different in tone and feeling (not rational thought; we're talking emotions here) from what a fundamentalist does when he condemns my liberal faith saying his religious concept is superior?
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Yes, Different Indeed. Thanks for the Thoughtful Reply.
Politically speaking, I agree with you in the obvious--condescension by secular humanist thinkers toward those who hold a "Religion" or follow a "Faith" isn't likely to endear them--or their political party to those on the receiving end. Nobody likes it when someone else is condescending (and subsequently holds their belief system in contempt) toward them.

Warning: This is a very long-winded response, which upon later consideration, may or may not be worth the effort to read... Proceed as your interest dictates and don't feel bad if at any point you feel like quitting... you won't have missed much, I suspect, and I won't mind...

Being a follower of secular humanist thinking or Atheism opens one to infinitely worse condescension backed up by deliberate discriminatory actions by the "majority". Not being allowed to even run for some political offices is the least of it. It can mean becoming a social pariah and enduring rejection by one's own family as well as presenting career roadblocks. It's a lonely road that's filled with severe mistreatment and ostracism. When I say "Intellectual Integrity" or honesty, I mean that there people who no longer believe in the "God" of their "Religion" (if any God at all). They come to doubt as they live and learn and finally to be convinced of the absurdity of their previous belief which was probably foisted upon them since early childhood. There are probably hundreds of thousands (or more) such people, yet, they still attend church or otherwise still claim to 'belong'. They aren't willing to be honest with themselves or perhaps even more particularly, they aren't going to admit their disbelief to others (be it family, friends or peers) because they know what would happen. Outside of relatively covert activities such as certain forums on the internet where like minded people are to be found, many unbelievers would otherwise never express themselves. Some, however, are willing to take the plunge--come what may, and declare to anyone who cares that they don't believe. Finally becoming consistent between their beliefs and the world; no more pretending. That is what I meant about intellectual honesty.

If you consider the amount of human time, energy and resources invested in the pursuit of God, Religion or Faith, you have to recognize that it's truly enormous. Financially, it probably amounts to literally hundreds of Billions of dollars (perhaps even in the Trillions) per year. Billions of people spend anywhere from a couple of hours a week to many hours a day on the topic. Reading/studying, listening to sermons, joining in prayer and song, cooking, sharing, evangelizing and so on, the list of tasks on which energy is spent is long. Now, imagine for a moment (for argument's sake) that you've just had an epiphany and concluded that God doesn't exist and that Religion is just a man-made myth created by a small group of people who sought to control/lead the rest. The implications include the idea that much, if not most, of the time, effort and wealth expended on the study of and implementing the will of an imaginary creator... is all going to waste! If directed toward something "real", just think of all the progress mankind could be making--how far we would already have progressed! Every serious problem facing the world could have been far more thoroughly been addressed. Feeding, clothing, housing and educating the poor, increasing access to public health and medical care services, preserving the environment, the list is endless. This is what in Economics might be called an "Opportunity Cost" where one considers the potential that might be obtained by a different allocation of resources versus the current choice and perceives that potential as the "cost" of choosing the current choice. That was poorly expressed, but that's one way of thinking about Religion. If it weren't for Religion, all that potential might have been realized. Sure, Religion does create and do some useful things, but much of it isn't related to the public good and a significant amount of it is expended in study, prayer, reflection and searching/looking for signs of God's will for the individual as well as various Churches/organizations. If God is real, then He's probably pleased by all that Worship. If not, something more productive could have been done. Of course, from most people's perspective, such hypotheticals are nothing more than blasphemy and not to even be considered.

You mention intellectual dishonesty and give an example. Alas, apparently even Atheists are human and may either engage in lies or exaggerations or may be as deluded as they think Believers are when it comes to their own understanding of Science. Science doesn't have all the answers, it's as limited as mankind is, but at least it seeks to progress. Religion, on the other hand, really doesn't. It's the same old books, scriptures and dogma. It looks forward no farther than to try to convert new believers and, ostensibly, to "know" the will of God and implement it. Certainly Science is filled with examples of falsified data and individual competitiveness--and to a growing extent, greed. Just because most Scientists don't believe in God, doesn't mean that they're immune to the same weaknesses and moral turpitude as other people. I'm not even saying that Science disproves God either, I would say that they are two entirely different things. However, Science has tended to disprove many of the beliefs presented by organized religion over the centuries--a mistake of the leaders of such organizations, not necessarily one of the religion itself--or the God behind it. In any case, I cannot even imagine someone trying to claim that Science is always objective or honest; anyone who would propose such a thing simply knows nothing about the history of science and shouldn't be pontificating about it's merits. Still, it strives to correct itself, every worthwhile theory or experiment or proposal that claims success undergoes a process in which the results are "duplicated" by independent researchers. If it can't be duplicated with the same results, it's been discounted/disproven. Nice try, but no cookie. Try again if you wish... (sentiment expressed to those who made their proclamation). Therefore, at some point flawed theories are exposed and have to be re-worked or replaced. Science strives to progress.

Nevertheless, there simply exists no real evidence that can be seen, touched or measured. There are things we can't measure, yet. There are things we can't explain, yet. Still, no evidence for God. Religion can say that that is by design, if there were a way to prove God exists, there would be no need for "Faith". Of course, Atheists or secular, rational, humanist thinkers would describe "Faith" as the ability to believe outlandish things with no evidence--the more outrageous and more scarce the evidence the better! Whatever. Believers will say they "know" God exists because they've had a profound experience and "sensed" his presence or felt as one with the creator of the universe (or some such thing). Many Atheists would just think they're probably just a bit crazy. They'd be more wrong than right. Scientists studying the physiology of the human brain have actually researched such extraordinary "experiences". This was just something they'd naturally get around to studying, but interesting bits like the fact that people with a particular kind of Epilepsy (temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE)) report incredible "religious" experiences/hallucinations. Inquiring minds want to know why. With the fantastic medical advances in brain scanning equipment, they were able to quantify what goes on in those Epileptic's brains. Naturally, (rather un-naturally it seems to me), they determined to try stimulating the same areas of the brain in "normal" subjects (human Guinea Pigs). One group of scientists did this via a focused magnetic field. Sure enough, all sorts of extraordinary altered states type experiences the subjects would even describe as 'religious experiences' were had. This suggests the human brain naturally has the capacity for creating the idea of God. Did God design us to be that way? For some, that's still a valid question; for others, they can't prove it wasn't so. That's because the word "prove" is very demanding.

In fact, nobody can really "prove" any pattern for sure... the best they can do is show that it happens predictably. It doesn't mean that the 42nd Quadrillionth time it won't do something different. Even so, it just depends on how one chooses to think and how accepting they are of rational/logical thought. A convincing rational argument can be made in which some agree and accept it, while others won't. Actually, I can't think of a thing on which literally "Everyone" agrees. Someone somewhere will disbelieve anything you can describe. "The Sun rises every morning!", someone won't believe it. They might be mentally ill or suffer from some mental deficiency, but they won't believe nonetheless. Likewise it works the other way around... "The Moon is made of Green Cheese!". Somebody will believe! Again, they may be of abnormal mental faculties... but they believe! So much for proving anything.

Politics is especially prone to such differences of opinion. It's interesting that in the very same way Democrats are likely to think Republicans are deluded... So too Atheists tend to think the religious are deluded. Alas, you're right in that one party tends to lean towards rational, humanistic thinking and more often discounts the existence of God... and also therefore looks down upon the other party which tends to attract the more fervent religious people. Which is which is obvious. Certainly, unless those who believe their way of thinking is superior can suppress the urge to dismiss and/or ridicule the thoughts and beliefs of the others, they will face a handicap in convincing them of the righteousness of their analysis of the issues. Ideally, though, they could find a way to convince those who rely on faith to accept rational thinking in a greater way... It is positively awkward that the politics has so commingled with religiousity (or the lack thereof) since it inevitably devolves the discourse into arguing the value of religion!

My concept of reality actually, surprisingly, resembles yours! All the particles, the space within, the transfer and constant co-mingling, joining, changing and disassembling of sub-atomic particles are all controlled by laws of physics, much of which is still unknown to us. On a larger scale, atoms and molecules also follow the laws of physics but also obey other rules as defined in Chemistry, of which we're still just beginning to understand. There are all the forces behind the positioning and other interactions between bits of matter (gravitation, electromagnetism, the strong and the weak nuclear force) and which hold us together. It's all a fantastic, constantly changing soup composed mainly of empty space. It very well might appear to be alive in a sense, but it's really just incredibly complex relationships following the laws that define how everything interacts over time. Within this universe is everything from galaxies and interstellar space, stars, black holes, pulsars, gas clouds, solar systems, planets, asteroids and down to everything we see and know about our world, including ourselves. We are but collections of particles interacting according to the rules and existing only briefly... but special in that our organization has allowed "consciousness". We perceive. We're conceived, live, grow, perceive, interact with others and our environment, experience, remember, age and die. We are never alone in the sense that we are but a part of the vast, constantly changing universe. Then we die in the sense our individual consciousness has run it's course. It's over. Everything is as it should be. All the distress and remorse over the brevity of our existence is just a part of how our consciousness works. It wasn't "designed" but rather was just one of heptillions of potential material interactions possible given the rich set of building blocks and the natural rules that exist in this universe. We're unique to our planet and to our particular evolutionary/geologic period in the life cycle of our planet and sun. What existed before our universe was created, I don't know. What's beyond the farthest galaxy, beyond the end of space as we know it? I don't know. How did our universe arrive at having the particular kinds of sub-atomic particles and energies, I don't know--but there is no need for a designer. To me, "God" is these rules and laws of physics. "He" isn't "sentient" or even "conscious" in any way that we can understand or even recognize. While there is constant change and movement and the passage of time in our universe, it's not "alive" in the sense of the biologic life forms we're familiar with. It doesn't even make sense to refer to the force behind everything as a "He" or a "God", and it/they couldn't care less if we "worship" or "praise" it, and it has no plan for each of us or any 'will' to be implemented by us. It isn't even aware of us or anything, it just is. Similar to what "God" would say... "It is, what it is". As far as we're concerned, it has always been and always will be--though our universe will one day change beyond our wildest imaginings. And again, when it comes to the end, I'm not alone because that's a sentiment that only exists in our minds while we live and it doesn't mean anything once we die. There's no punishment after, there's simply unconsciousness after. The matter and energy that compose our bodies continues to exist in some form. In the short run, we simply dissolve back into our environment--with our preservation technologies, it may take more time, but someday, inevitably we simply become a part of everything else. But that doesn't matter for our brief consciousness will have long since ended. Imagine a flower growing in the field. It sprouts, grows, interacts (rather stationarily) with it's environment, grows old, dies and dissolves back into the field. Our lives are essentially the same except we have a consciousness of our existence as well as an awareness of our eventual mortality. The flower needs no "creator" to guide it through it's life, it does just what it's supposed to do and is a constant part of the universe--at least it's small part of the universe.

Certainly that exposition could use some editing, re-writing and drastic reduction. One might think I'm more wordy than our last Presidential contender.

I like your notion of multiple paths through reality, through the existence and time--for it's perfectly accurate. Our lives depend on everything we encounter and what happens to our part of the universe during the time we're there, and that does mean that every person has their own unique experience--and each individual therefore develops their own mental models based upon what information they encountered as well as what experiences they had--as well as being colored by the specific organization of our physical bodies and minds (genetics and developmental environments/experiences). If anything, the surprise is that we're all as similar as we are.

Back to politics. Just as you say, each of us can influence those we come into contact with, and presuming that I would in some way express condescension toward those whose beliefs involve religion, it seem likely that I wouldn't influence as many people to adopt my proposals as you would. Actually, I don't disagree--if, that is, in my efforts to sway other's thinking I'm forced to deal with their religion--and I choose to engage that part of their belief system. I figure I can make my points in a strictly secular fashion--just as the Democratic platform has done.

While owing to my particular path, I would have to admit to thinking there is a better use of an individual's time than to focus on religion, given our present relatively desperate circumstances, I would certainly avoid any attempt to "save" the religious from their "delusions". Actually, that's a pretty harsh description of my beliefs--much of what I've written here and in my previous post represents, in effect, my explanation of what a hypothetical Atheist would think--and my effort to explain why they would have such a condescending attitude. Personally, I was once religious and still have religious friends. They either know I'm an unbeliever who once thought he believed, or they think I'm just suffering an extended crisis of faith. I haven't sought to disabuse them of their beliefs, and never will. Interestingly, I don't find it difficult at all to discuss politics with them--they aren't fundamentalists (mostly) and are intelligent, rational (aside from their religious convictions) and not hard to talk to.

The Democratic Party as a whole, though, may have some problem with this. Actually, I think the Party gets blamed for every high-profile Atheist or Humanistic thinker who happens to express their anti-religious thoughts and attitudes, even if they aren't really Democrats. Even so, some high-profile Democrats do the same. As to your question of how this is emotionally different from when a Fundamentalist condemns your more liberal faith and claims his views are superior to yours... I don't see any difference. Of course, any rational person knows your views are more reasonable and therefore superior in most ways to those of the fundamentalists, but emotionally, you'd be put off just like any person of faith would be feeling rejected and belittled by the Atheist/Humanist who condemns their beliefs. I note, however, that many Atheist/Humanists are surprisingly satisfied with allowing the Religious to think whatever they want! So, whether this is a serious problem for the Party, I can't say--I'm not a sufficient expert/consultant when it comes to global trends in the Party's efforts to reach "the other side".

In any case, for more reasons why such Secular Humanists might argue that Religion Must go (see the link). Again, that only partially reflects my own beliefs--though, it struck me as interesting and again, I have to admit to thinking the world would be a better place were it not for the "Organized Religions" (if only to have avoided the five hundred year setback known as the 'Dark Ages').

My apologies for writing this book length response. At some point it was either forge ahead or stop with the sense I hadn't fully expressed my thoughts. That, and perhaps a combination of obsessive-compulsive disorder (<--that was intended as humor with just a pinch of fear that it's true) and the idea of discovering just how long a post can I create (and this would certainly be a personal record)(phew)(I feel like a man would imagine he'd feel after giving birth!).


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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Not quite.
In fact, being godless is just a sign of intellectual honesty, courage to face the unknown alone and a perfectly rational point of view.

It is far more intellectually honest to reserve judgement entirely on a matter that reason doesn't come to a conclusion on, rather than making a negative judgement. This doesn't even get into the faith necessary to get past basic skeptical objections to the underpinnings of epistemology.
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Not what I meant.
It is far more intellectually honest to reserve judgement entirely on a matter that reason doesn't come to a conclusion on, rather than making a negative judgement.

In any case, it's hardly intellectually honest to create an imaginary answer to a question that reason doesn't come to a conclusion on. Besides, since we can never have perfect knowledge of anything, we have to use reason to make judgements which amount to our best efforts to explain the available evidence every day. In doing so, a great many of the best minds have concluded that either there is no God or that it would be a negligent judgement to presume the existence of one. Since it is an extraordinary claim, it requires extraordinary evidence; there is no evidence, the logical conclusion, which reason does in fact arrive at is that one cannot claim the existence of God. Having been intellectually Godless until reaching this reasonable, rational and appropriate conclusion, the best course is to remain Godless. The honesty comes in when one admits that one does not believe, rather than avoiding the negative social consequences involved in such an admission by pretending to believe. Such avoidance of one's beliefs, regardless of how they were arrived at, amounts to true "Intellectual Dishonesty" especially as it involves deception of others, and to some extent, oneself. Reserving judgement because you claim you don't know or think you can't make such a decision is itself a form of dishonesty known as avoidance.

As to avoiding getting "into the faith necessary to get to get past basic skeptical objections to the underpinnings of epistemology" (sure), I'm probably comfortable avoiding such a use of or dependence upon such "faith"--depending upon your definition thereof.

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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Heh
I always loved the "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" line... it comes from the idea of challenging something like the theory of gravity; there's a lot of evidence behind it, and so it takes an extraordinary amount of evidence to prove something that runs contrary to it. It has nothing to do with designations like "paranormal," "supernatural," or "divine."

I don't think that it's intellectually dishonest to say "I don't know X, but I believe X," which is exactly what we're talking about when we discuss faith. Obviously, since knowledge requires at least justified true belief (JTB), it's impossible by definition to know things which you believe without full justification.

As for requiring faith to get past the basic skeptical objections, discussing this more with my philosopher girlfriend, I was informed that I had neglected to consider "plenty" of epistemologists who would argue that we can know, for instance, that the zebras in front of us are not, in fact, painted mules.
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. Then...
Then they have the audacity to expect those not infected with their particular form of belief in the imaginary to "respect" their beliefs. How dare you question my religious beliefs? If you don't want them questioned, don't bring them up in public.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. I find this post
personally offensive.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Grannie, do you see this post as being in any way
helpful in getting people to look at the Democratic Party as one that allows variance of thought? To my mind, it actually is fodder for the Anne Coulter types who love to portray us all as "Godless".
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I have no problem with atheism
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 02:26 PM by TallahasseeGrannie
or with people who feel religion is not a good thing. I disagree and that's fine. But this paragraph was offensive to me:

"Faith is a hole in your brain. Faith stops critical thinking. Faith is a failure point inculcated into people's minds, an unguarded weak point that allows all kinds of nasty, maggoty, wretched ideas to crawl into their heads and take up occupancy. Supporting faith is like supporting people who refuse to be vaccinated: they're harmless in and of themselves, they may be perfectly healthy right now, but they represent fertile ground for disease, and they represent potential severe damage to the social compact. When you're in a culture that worships Abraham's insanity, you're fostering the nonsense that enables the Son of Sam."


The poster has described me (and all people of faith or belief) as having a hole in my brain, inability to think critically, an inculcated failure point, and nasty, maggoty, wretched ideas. Then he links Abrahamic religions with the Son of Sam, who was raised a Jew (perhaps the OP is a tad antisemetic?), converted for a while to Christianity, but contended it was "a Satanist" when he was convicted.

The rhetoric is divisive, insulting, over the top, and counter productive. It is bad manners, and even worse: stupid. Stupid because it is all or nothing thinking, black and white. It also mirrors the self-righteousness one encounters with Jerry Falwell..just the other side of the same tired coin.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I agree with you
and see that particular paragraph as nothing but divisive.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. We could try a different approach: Tell me what's good about faith.
My position (and, I think, Meyers') is that faith is generally "good" to the extent that it's also grounded in reality and decency. But then, that begs the question: why not just stick with reality and decency? If people are good, is that because of faith, or in spite of it? I say "in spite of," but I suspect that you have something to say about it.

As far as the Ann Coulters of the world go, history shows that they really don't care whether we atheists try to appease their sensibilities or not. So that argument doesn't hold much water for me.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Well, you see...here's the thing
It doesn't matter whether or not faith is a good or bad thing. It is a freedom. It is the highest form of personal freedom: your world view... Why are we here? What is our purpose? How should I live my life?

We each answer these questions differently. The highest form of rational human behavior is tolerance for beliefs that are different from your own. When someone starts saying you must believe in Jesus Christ or face prosecution, that is not a good thing. When someone starts saying you cannot believe in Jesus Christ or you will face prosecution, that is equally a bad thing. This area of the human psyche just is not negotiable and cannot be controlled one way or the other.

When you ask why not stick with reality and decency, I sense that you don't understand how deep faith is in many of us. It isn't a choice for me. It is who I am.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Hmmm. I once read about a study...
where some neuroscientists did some functional MRI on people and discovered that many people had what I'm going to call "faith wiring" in their heads (I'm sure any neuroscientists reading my interpretation will get a nose-bleed). Equally interesting, they discovered that other people didn't appear to have this same kind of wiring.

I'll stop there before I screw up any more of the details, but at any rate the experiment was very suggestive. It seems possible that what you say might be literally true: faith is something "hard-wired" into your brain, and furthermore, not in mine.

Or, not. But if that is true, I figure it would explain a lot about that feeling of talking past each other that I always seem to get when I try to have these kind of conversations. This entire human dialogue might be a little like somebody who is blind trying to describe how they understand the world to somebody who is deaf. Each sees the world through parts of their brain that aren't applicable to the other.

All that aside, I think that there are certain kinds of faith that all people employ. I certainly have a kind of faith in things that I believe, but can't determine factually. However, I don't put that kind of thinking in the same epistemological class as "reality-based" thinking. It's more the sort of thing I employ if I can't do anything better. I'm pretty sure that the kind of faith that Myers finds poisonous is the kind where faith-based epistemology is put on the same footing (or superior footing, in some cases) as reality-based epistemology. A la Voltaire: "Anybody capable of believing absurdities can be made to commit atrocities."

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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. You had me until your last sentence
I read that quote before and frankly, I don't get the link between believing absurdities and committing atrocities. I think people often believe absurdities and people often commit atrocities, but whether one leads to the other...I suppose they could. On the other hand if you really strongly feel you will end up in hell if you kill, that negates it. And I know, for example, most gang-related murders could be called atrocities, but there is no religious background for that. On the other hand, religion and gang behavior have a lot in common, which is one reason I give religion a pass on a lot of things, because I think it is a human need to group, and that territorialism and tribal identify while positive in many ways, is at the end of the day, what leads to violence.

Anyway, about the hard wiring stuff, that is my theory. And I am sure there is a evolutionary reason why some have it and some don't. I don't think it would be a positive thing for the species for everyone to have it, frankly.

And I agree that "religion" can be poisonous, but not some much faith. And frankly, I don't see a firm connection between the two. I go to church with some folks who are way into religion but not so big on faith, and I know plenty who are the opposite.
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. I dispute our society's basic premise that religion is "good"
Far too many believers expect some sort of blank check because they believe; to them, and to most of our society at large, the premise is that belief is good. They also presume that non-believers are inherently bad and don't deserve a place at the table.

Like many vehement arguments, the two sides differ on a fundamental premise.

This man is pretty much dead-on with his observations, but I don't see a solution; we're stuck with this silliness, and all we can do is try to keep the extremists somewhat at bay. For many, the belief in an afterlife and the specialness one has as the child of a "supreme whatever" is necessary to still the fear and hopelessness so they can simply live. For many, that's a somewhat contained thing in the brain and they're still able to function rationally. Mercifully, it seems like these folks somewhat outnumber the Andrea Yateses out there. Still, accepting something without proof that deals with big issues of life and death is a huge problem: once one accepts things without proof, one is capable of all sorts of things.

There's no way we can escape the pervasive influence of religion in this country and we'll sadly have to play the game to have any voice at all. Still, we don't have to love it, and we'll just learn to live with the blissful put-downs from the sanctimonious that we've never experienced the supernatural experience because we're either too dunderheaded, egocentric or not worthy of this godguy's sweet, sweet love.

Many religious people slag non-believers on a regular basis, yet are somehow outraged when their guesses are called to account. Many non-believers have chips on their shoulders and can't help thumping on all believers as whacked-out fantasists. Snottiness is an equal-opportunity affliction.

Still, it behooves those of the majority in a society like this to be tolerant, and that means to also be inclusive.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Right on!
I don't see how the opinions in the OP are helpful in any way in getting the public in general to believe that Democrats are, indeed, tolerant.

Oh, and just to let you know; this mystic looks on every one of her mystical experiences as a wonderful gift, yet she realizes that not everyone has one, and it isn't because they are dunderheaded, egocentric, or unworthy. Their world view and their lives are just led differently. Personally, I think the "internal wiring" of a mystic is different than, say, a skeptic-nothing right or wrong about it, just different-like some people are genetically prone to straight hair, some to curly hair.

So I say, go in peace-let's not concentrate on our differences, but on what we both want-Democrats back as a majority in Congress, our Constitution back, etc, etc.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. I agree with the tenor of your post
and your final conclusion.

But I wanted to point something out to you. I have proof that underpins my faith. It might not be proof to you, but it is part of my life. It is an accumulation of "coincidences" and minor miracles and daily affirmations that have happened to me. They are not scientifically quantifiable. They are not measurable by scientific instruments. How could they be? I feel, therefore, they are not shareable. They are intensely personal. But I assure you, I am not stupid or silly (most of the time) and generally am a rather stable individual. So don't be quite so quick to think that people with faith are flying blind. If I hadn't had so much affirmation of my faith in my life I would have given up a long time ago and found something else to do with my weekends.
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. "Rotting .. rabid...necrosis... maggoty... disease"
Last time I read something using language like this it was written by Nazis about Jews.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
11. I laughed
Faith is a hole in your brain. Faith stops critical thinking. Faith is a failure point inculcated into people's minds, an unguarded weak point that allows all kinds of nasty, maggoty, wretched ideas to crawl into their heads and take up occupancy. Supporting faith is like supporting people who refuse to be vaccinated: they're harmless in and of themselves, they may be perfectly healthy right now, but they represent fertile ground for disease, and they represent potential severe damage to the social compact. When you're in a culture that worships Abraham's insanity, you're fostering the nonsense that enables the Son of Sam.

That's really all the response it, or any other sort of fundamentalist pablum.
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Dudley_DUright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. just for future reference, PZ's last name is spelled M-Y-E-R-S
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fjc Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
20. The religious right is "right" in this sense...
You can't read something like this and doubt that faith is under attack from science. The contrary is also true, of course, and that gets most of the attention in the media. Interesting that when faith attacks science its regarded as stupid, but when science attacks faith its regarded as both intelligent and needed. It is this kind of thing that gives the religious right all the fuel they need to make their case against modernity. People who argue this way seem to be under the delusion that the religious can be persuaded to abandon their faith. That, is stupid.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
21. Well, this pretty much gets everything upside down, IM(nsh)O
Is there ANYBODY who doesn't have AT LEAST ONE big gaping hole in their thought-processes?

It might be wonderful if we all faced up to our own irrationalities and rationalizations, the things we believe without cause, the ridiculous hopes that we nourish without evidence ... But since nobody's ever seen any such thing, nobody knows what it would be like: the closest we usually get is -- facing up to OTHER people's irrationalities and inconsistencies.

Yes, EVERYBODY gladly points out the GAPING holes in OTHER people's thought processes -- purely as a courtesy (of course) and with only the most altruistic of motives. And then -- can you BELIEVE it? -- ALMOST all of them fail to appreciate this MARVELOUS favor, feeling attacked instead of grateful, and SOME of them -- can you IMAGINE? -- will even be RUDE enough to return the compliment.

But popping peoples' bubbles and raining on their parades is an activity fraught with peril, however the civic-minded the underlying intentions be. When it must be done, perhaps it is best to pick the target carefully, for its importance, and take time to aim for a precise hit.

Religion is often used to bandage psychological scars, and hence appears in many cases where people are damaged or frightened or alienated. In such cases, the proper response requires us seeing past the symptom to the underlying personal or economic or social or political pathology.

Such insight is difficult to obtain, because we do naturally not see our world any more clearly than we see ourselves: our vision is clouded by the gaping holes in our own psyches, our self-justification of our own self-interested behavior, our desire to go along with the crowd, the relentless propaganda directed at us by specific economic interest groups in the form of fake news or "analysis" that merely mystifies current events.

Religion, in itself, presents too hazy and inspecific a target to justify much energy, given the real problems we face. Nor do I consider all religious views repugnant: contemplate, for example, the view expressed in the following nineteenth century poem of James Henry Leigh Hunt, in which the mystical and superstitious elements are completely overwhelmed by the punchline


Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An angel writing in a book of gold.

Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the Presence in the room he said
"What writest thou?" — The vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord,
Answered "The names of those who love the Lord."

"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still, and said "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow men."

The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blessed,
And lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest.

- James Henry Leigh Hunt, 1838

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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. We all have holes in our thinking, to be sure. However...
Certain of these holes, instead of being corrected, are actually elevated above reproach or reason. I think maybe the key question is: do you place any beliefs above and beyond questioning, or not? If you do, that is poisonous. That is the "worm" that Myers is referring to.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Well, your notion of what qualifies as "religious" doesn't overlap ..
.. much with mine.

And your view of "reason" seems different from mine, too. I tend to regard "reasoning" as a collection of more-or-less empirical rules, gradually developed and improved over time, and largely based on material experience, that reflect certain transformational properties that can be applied to language and are useful for systematizing discourse. These rules, and their more precise mathematical forms, have shown themselves to be extremely useful for scientific purposes -- provided that one attends to them carefully and uses the correct assumptions. With sloppy use or bad assumptions, everything goes out the window. So my attitude towards "reason" is amazement and gratitude that it works as well as it does, but in certain circumstances I try to remember that the apparent clarity of thought reason gives me may be misleading. In this sense, I do not regard "reason" as being "beyond reproach."

My attitude towards religion has very little to do with beliefs: more along the lines suggested by Martin Buber in "I and Thou," my religious notions are "subjective" -- in the sense that these notions center around relationships between living subjects. So far as possible here, I prefer that these notions not be intellectual concepts but reflect certain practical habits and skills. Most of the people with whom I actually discuss religious matters in any detail do not consider their own views "beyond reproach" in any sense, since they hope to live and grow and learn. Of course, we all choose who we are, within whatever limits are imposed by our context; this sort of existential choice is fundamentally religious in nature, to my view, whether the person making the choice self-identifies as religious or not. Some of the thinking involved in such choices ("Let's not gouge out the eyes of defenseless strangers," say) seem to me as "beyond reproach" as anything could possibly be; if anyone wants to claim this is irrational and rigid on my part, I'm inclined to regard it as a gaping hole in their thinking, not mine.

The point is this: it's easy to twiddle around with words and convince ourselves that we understand things better than we do, or that we know what's really going wrong in other people's minds, but in fact we generally understand surprisingly little, and we generally have less insight than we think. Almost everybody has seen long loud arguments where the contestants used different words to express their desire for the same objective, and similarly almost everybody has experienced a discomforting moment when it became clear that an apparent agreement was completely illusory because other people can use exactly the same words we use and yet mean entirely different things.

There is a very limited sense in which I completely agree with the OP, and another more sweeping sense in which I completely disagree with it. There are criminally insane uses for "reason" and "religion" both, but in such cases there is an underlying insanity that has nothing whatsoever to do with "reason" or "religion." After noting that precise logic can be associated with paranoid schizophrenia, I do not abandon "reason"; similarly, upon noting the transcendentalist self-justifications of a few fundamentalists, I am not inclined to dismiss all human transcendentalist urges.

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