Clinton to Democrats: Discuss Convictions

[Khephra]

CLINTON, N.Y. -- Former President Clinton, noting an "astonishing turnout among evangelical Christians" in this year's election, warned Tuesday that Democrats "cannot be nationally competitive when we don't feel comfortable talking about our convictions."

"I do not believe either party has a monopoly on morality or truth," Clinton told an audience of more than 4,500 at Hamilton College in upstate New York.

He spoke one week after President Bush won re-election over Democratic Sen. John Kerry and the Republicans bolstered their majorities in the House and Senate.

"I think the current divisions are partly the fault of the people in my party for not engaging the Christian evangelical community in a serious discussion of what it would take to promote a real culture of life," Clinton said.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-bill-clinton,0,2516186.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines

[Celeborn Skywalker]

1. Yes

We need to speak about convictions but not on the rethuglicans terms. We need to speak with conviction on poverty, workers rights, equal rights, etc. and not give in and move even further right.

[The Backlash Cometh]

41. Yeah, and ask them if their mission in life is to help the poor...

Come to think of it, their mission in life ISN't to help the poor. It's to accept Christ, donate to the church and shut-up and listen to the minister.

[TaleWgnDg]

2. What an astonishingly honest statement: "(We) cannot be

nationally competitive when we don't feel comfortable talking about our convictions."

There you go! Clinton's hit the nail on the head, again! He's got an uncanny way to pick up the core of the matter.

And it's true. Democrats need to discuss what Democrats are all about -- the core of our souls. And if it takes translating our own core beliefs into the language of others, including evangelicals, then so be it. This does not mean, however, that we compromise our own values. It merely means that we use their language to explain our own issues. It's been stated over and over again, that America is the land that shares the Democratic Party issues, not Republican issues. And it's about time that the Democratic Party claimed those issues publicly.


This is the DU member still known as a DU insomniac. :hi:

[saracat]

7. I don't think we should "translate our beliefs "

Into evangelical language. If they are too dumb to get it so be it. We don't need their votes anyway. If America needs them to vote we are finished. Clinton is an ass and living in 1992. I hope no one listens to him.

[Merlin]

20. That's damn near as dumb as they are.

How the fuck do you expect them to understand you if you don't speak in their language? Or didn't you bother thinking that far before spouting off you uninformed view.

And "we don't need their votes anyway" is the kind of remark I would ascribe to a mindless, spoiled teenager.

[jdj]

26. we need to translate their beliefs:eviljailankill chri$tian$ have one goal

Armageddon.

What kind of drugs in Clinton ON right about now?

[Gman]

34. We should all be so lucky to be living back from 1992 - 2000

when sanity overall prevailed.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

64. It may be difficult (impossible) to have a conversation with evangelicals

However, I think "a serious discussion of what it would take to promote a real culture of life" is called for in this country. I deeply resent the gap republicans create between policy and actual support of life and their narrow definition of morality.

Even my 5 year-old daughter got it when I talked with her about the election and reasons I worked to elect Kerry. I kept it simple: talked about the environment, people dying in the war in Iraq and people struggling in this country for jobs and healthcare.

Her assessment "So Kerry is for life?"

I think Bill Clinton is right. How do we have this conversation in this country? The problem is that whenever someone seems open to discuss these issues they tend to be like minded or captive audience (my 5 year-old).

I think we could be more specific in articulating the discrepancies of the repubs. For example, during the debates I would have liked to see Kerry talk extensively about the increased abortion rate under Bush, and link the Right to Life movement to children already here and those being killed in Iraq.

Perhaps massive e-mailing and demands that journalists begin to ask these questions and make these links will cause a couple to do so which would be a start.

[Sparky McGruff]

3. I'd like to talk about Bush's convictions...

but as far as I know he hasn't been indicted yet!

[Dr Fate]

6. That's part of it. "Let's talk about Bush's culture of life..."

More DEMS need to say that- then compare his positions on Iraq, poverty, healthcare, children, etc...

[ReadTomPaine]

28. Thank you!

I was going to say much the same, "Great idea! Which Republican should be convicted first?"

RTP

[Dr Fate]

4. I agree with him.

I'm also reminded of Dean being called a "racist" by the idiot PC crowd, when he suggested that Southerners with confederate emblems should come over to the good side & vote for him...who knows, they have eventually taken the damn things off if they were listening to Democrats...

We need to make sure to draw a sharp disticntion between the Fawell/Moonie Repugs from the honest Christians too...

[sandnsea]

16. on health care, education and jobs

Yep, that worked well. That WAS the campaign this year. They didn't come over and vote for us. We have to talk about community and tolerance and working together and lifting people up, values. Not programs.

[xxqqqzme]

5. that 'culture of life' crap

is RW speak. Speak in Democrat and I'll listen.

We CANNOT 'engage' the rabid RW. These people didn't even vote 4 Jimmy Carter, FCS! U can't get much more Christian than that!

[saracat]

8. Amen to that !

These Rw's will never vote for us. And if they did I would be worried about us!

[Dr Fate]

11. They dont have to be RWingers...

...that is the point.

We are talking about church goers-many of who apparently never voted until now.

I'm not willing to give up a few church votes- I know many of them do indeed vote DEM-I think we can do better-

Granted- the main thing is to focus on is the base- who still did not turn out or volunteer on the level that could have been...

[Dr Fate]

9. To be fair- he did not require that we use that term...

I agree that we need to come up w/ our own language.

What terms would we use?

You may be suprised- I know I was when I learned that several of my church-going, Republican voting relatives in N.C. went for Kerry.

We would do better concentrating on our base as far as GOTV- but nothing wrong w/ trying to get a few more votes on the right side...

[quaker bill]

29. What about other people?

Speaking in "democrat" and about 48 percent will listen. Not good enough if you want to win. That would be Clinton's point.

[shawn703]

30. That's not true

My Repub preacher did vote for Carter. He said he was upset when people criticized Carter for admitting that he had looked at women with lust and therefore had committed sin in his heart. He thought that was a great testimony of faith to admit that and to say that God forgives him for his sin.

[mutius]

35. Evangelicals ie Conservatives

Conservatives hate Jimmy Charter and he is more Godly than any president in our time. These people are just plain nuts. The Ronald Reagan Administration stared this Conservative liberal crap back in the eighthes and they think this man was the greatest.

[Pepperbelly]

38. Don't wear blinders because of the words ...

it is a very specific attempt to do one of the things that Bill does so well ... co-opt their LANGUAGE with our ideas. Is the culture of life about abortion? Right now it is. Could it actually be co-opted to mean CONDITION OF LIFE.

I think he might be on to something.

[leftchick]

39. Amen to that....

"culture of life" to wingers means bombing countries back to the stoneage if they are Muslims. Sick, sick sick....

[smirkymonkey]

49. Exactly!

This is such bullshit - Translation: BE more like Republican Christian Evangelicals. Fuck you, Clinton.

"I think the current divisions are partly the fault of the people in my party for not engaging the Christian evangelical community in a serious discussion of what it would take to promote a real culture of life," Clinton said.

It's OUR fault for not pandering to the fundies? He makes me sick.

The problem with the Democratic leadership is that they assume that because the Repukes are winning (albiet, using every dirty trick in the book) that they are somehow RIGHT! And that we need to be MORE like them in order to win. When will we have a leader that actually encourages us to stand for something instead of kissing right-wing ass?

[Magical]

10. Democrats to Clinton: Discuss Fraud

It doesn't matter if the Democrats construct a platform that includes every man, woman, child, and amoeba, if the FRICKEN VOTE is counted by REPUBLICAN OWNED companies, computers with no paper trail, and networks owned by REPUBLICANS.

This is like thinking repainting your car is going to make it run better.

C'mon Clinton, what about the OBVIOUS FRAUD and CONFLICTS OF INTEREST.

ONLY ONE THING MATTERS...
A REAL VOTING SYSTEM THAT INCLUDES ALL AMERICANS AND COUNTS EVERY VOTE FAIRLY and VOTER VERIFIABLY.

[Dr Fate]

12. Let's say the fraud is fixed. We would still need to figure out strategy.

I say we discuss vote- lets investigate this fraud- but we still need to no how to GOTV once it's fixed, right?

I have a bad feeling about possible fraud too-but I need more to sink my teeth into.

[Zhade]

18. It is utterly pointless to discuss strategy...

... before eliminating the chance for the rightwing to commit massive voting fraud.

You don't discuss redecorating while the house is on fire.



======================================================================

Dream Views - Tutorials, Lucid Dreaming Forums and more

MC Frontalot's Special Delivery - one nifty anti-war jingle!

Smash The Trifecta

Casualty Count - updated every three hours from the CentCom database. Watch in real-time as our soldiers die for b*sh's lies.

Reasons To Distrust The DLC

Criminal Intent

[RyomaSakamoto]

40. here's a START

http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/fraud04/fraud04.mp3
http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/airAmericaRadio.com/unfiltered/verifiedvoting.org/dr._david_dill.mp3


come on LEADERS show us your CONVICTIONS :bounce:

[deacon]

15. Damn right--we were robbed again n/t

[ElectroPrincess]

37. A Democrat to Clinton

Discuss the HATE radio and radical right wing media that SPEW lies about Liberals and Democrats every day. Discuss how numerous right wing think tanks are tripping over each other to be in the forefront at presenting "so called experts" that equate ANYTHING liberal or progressive with "commies" or "evil doers" or <shriek> "socialism."

Discuss the FAT war profiteers in the Military-Industrial complex that take positions as a "expert advisors" on cable networks, e.g. James Woosy, Henry Kissinger, Billy Krystal etc. They *always* laud more war and conflict because "IT'S GOOD FOR BUSINESS."

I love ya Clinton but I HATED YOUR NAFTA. And I resent the inappropriate and inane advice that hide the fact that Liberals and Progressives have essentially NO media voice.

No wonder we're detested when the right wing and/or corporate media MISREPRESENTS OUR VALUES and trashes our morals at will.

[LibDemAlways]

47. Amen.

Unless and until we uncover and deal with the fraud, nothing else matters. The repukes could run David Duke next time and we'd lose.
We could remake our platform in their image and we'd lose. We could hold our noses and nominate McCain and we'd lose.

And I'm with anyone here who thinks these brainwashed kool-aid drinkers are hopeless anyway.

[Nicholas_J]

13. Unfortunately Clinton has hit the nial on the head

The fact is that over the last 40 years Democrats have completely disengaged from involvement with anything related to the religious community in the United State and it has given conservatives the opportunity to become thedefacto party of thise who claim to be religious, while the mainstream churches who supported the social gospel and civil rights were given more and more of a back seat in the democratic party. The Democratic party was once the party of Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement was almost inseparable from religious leaders who fought for everyones rights.

King was only the most well known religious leaders involvedwith this cause, but he was not alone, No where near alone as among those who marched with him in most of the marches were 4000 religious leaders from all over the U.S.


Along with Ralph Abernathy, Fred Shuttlesworth, and C.K. Steele, he formed the Southern Christian Leadership Conference The entore movement was couched in the language of religion. His "Prayer pilrimage of freedom drew over 37,000 people to the Lincoln Memorial in 1957. It was largely religious leaders in the United States who started the civil rights movement and imbued the movement with the language of religion. Democrats abandoned this type of leadership after King was assainated, an allowed the conservatives to usurp religion in the United States and they have completely been able to control the language of religion in their campaigns. Anytthing good can be put to uses for bad, and they have turned the religious language that was once used to make the case for civil rights for all into a dialect to make the case for hatred and denial of civil rights for some. Dont forget that there were religious leaders on the right who tried to use religious language to deny civil rights to blacks, but because King's language spoke to higher purposes, more eloquently the religious language of the right rang hollw.As hollow as the religious language of those who used religion to justify slavery did during the Civil War. We need to take the language back and do the same again. To show that the language of the religious right and their values is just a hollpw call to hatred, and a denial of the rest of the bible which far more freqwuentl calles for social justice directly, than it speaks against homosexuality or abortion. While homosexuality is disapproved of in the bible in only three places, there is simply not one word in it that opposes homosexual marriage, and not a single word that directly addresses abortion. The religious right must interpret these parts of scripture in their own way, and indirectly to get to the point of view they take, but they have to twist and turn to absolve themselvesof the requirements for social justice and care for those who are less fortunate. This is where we can defeat them if we take the language back and turn it on them,Kerry tried., with the quotes from James speaking to faith being dead if there are no works to show the outwards signs of faith, and Democrats can make a very powerful point if they direct their atatcks to the small faith of the religious right, and return to the language of the religious leaders who used religion to ground their fight for rights for all in. It is absolutely necessary to make the values of those who voted for Bush seem cheap and shallow in comparison with the broader scope of the language of civil rights as used by people like King. If this is not done, theDemocratic Party can expect to be consignred to the dustbin of history, at least in the United States. Like it or not, in this country, religion has always been a force used in politics, and if we fail to use it, we will fail entirely/

[juliagoolia]

14. Talking so they understand

There are loads of "key" words that people like Jessie Jackson, and Al Sharpton can teach us all.

Listen to them talk to the RW'rs like Falwell and such..

Its true that God wants us to Heal the sick..thats very much a Christian ideal but a way and means to do Gods work ..and leads to Gods work being our own.. ie, health care ..educating doctors, stem cell research etc..

Its true that God does not want us to suffer or to be poor, that he wants us to live life and live it abundantly .. This means having a good job and being able to afford the things we need to have an abundant life.

What he is saying is we need to understand that these people are not online, or reading political books all the time. They are getting their info from pundits, hate-radio, news programs and commercials so we need to talk to them in these ways so they can see we understand what values are important. Then to talk to them and frame these ideals in such a way that they can see we are moral in ways that are meaningful to them as well.

We also need to point out that they have been pandered to as well.No one likes to be lied to. These poor people have crap to live on in the rural areas and 'Robertson, Falwell, Dobson are millionaires telling them how to vote against themselves.

We need to encourage them to keep on changing hearts to help young people create a real culture of life. So they wont make bad decisions and vote war mongers into office. etc.. So they will help clear land mines and stop nuclear proliferation because these things are really opposed to the culture of life.. Its framing these ideas in the language they understand.. thats what rover did..

Rover wrapped a pile of Balony up in the flag and a Bible and he left them with baloney,a stained flag, and a disgraced Bible.

[Milo_Bloom]

17. Sorry, Bill, not quite...

"cannot be nationally competitive when we don't feel comfortable talking about our convictions"

Couldn't agree with him more on this point. One of my biggest problems with Kerry was the wishy washy approach he took towards "moral" issues. "I am pro choice, but personally against abortion because I am a catholic", "I am personally against gay marriage, but okay on civil unions and also okay if a state allows gay marriage"

My problem with what Clinton said is right here, "I think the current divisions are partly the fault of the people in my party for not engaging the Christian evangelical community in a serious discussion of what it would take to promote a real culture of life,"

I don't believe we can have a "serious discussion" with evangelicals, because their positions are not necessarily reality based. "God says gays are evil, thus..." How do you have a serious discussion with that?

I think we need to forget about evangelicals and have the serious discussion with the other 80% of America and stop taking positions that allow us to appear "weak" on these issues. Why do we have to cage our discussion around the radical fringe of the other party?When someone brings up gay marriage look at them quizzically and ask, "isn't this 2004", haven't we gotten beyond discrimination against people"

Shame works in mysterious ways and when you dignify an undignifiable positon, such as discrimination agaist someone because of their sexuality, you give strength to people on the fence. Oh, I guess it is okay to hate them. When you marginalize the fear and make it seem wrong, you have the opposite effect.

I am so tired of being told by members of this party that we have to dignify beliefs and ideas that are so totally repugnant to the American way. If being a member of ANY political party means that I have to try and restrict someone else's basic human rights or that I am going to be making decisions for someone else based on my personal religious beliefs, show me the door!!!

I'm telling you right now, if the dems spend the next four years trying to win the "moral" war or even trying to have this fight, all hope is lost! We can only hope that a disgusted republican decides to run as a third party candidate to give us a chance!!!

[Merlin]

21. You are wrong.

Of course we can't win over all evangelicals. But we can win over a great many of them. I personally know literally dozens of them who were right on the edge in this campaign. What kept them from crossing over is their sense that we are amoral and spiritually ungrounded.

We are not amoral of course, and liberals generally believe strongly in the spiritual values of making the world a better place, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, and on and on.

By conveying our beliefs to them in language they understand we can indeed gain the support of a great many who are very uncomfortable with the broader agenda of the right wing.

[are_we_united_yet]

25. Ummm.....

Didn't Bush come out for Civil Unions right before the elections? That could be characterized by some as ..well..wishy washy.

My point: Evangelicals/Radical Wingnuts are hypocrits. Flaming hypocrits. My opinion, Democrats need to pound that message home. I agree that embracing pieces of these jerkweeds radical agenda is beyond stupid. If the Dems want my support on the party moving towards Christian right, I'm gone.


"...with the other 80% of America and stop taking positions that allow us to appear "weak" on these issues.."

Pure bullshit. If your party has convictions on an issue and you don't take a position on it because you are afraid of politcal ramifications, find another occupation. Don't ask don't tell was a smashing success right? Wingnuts have no shame and sense of continuity and consistency in their value system so couching it interms of "this is 2004 ... " (which I think is a clever rebuttal btw) will be met with some bible thumping mis-interpreted hate nonsense they usually spew. Hell they justified slavery as God's will. No, you have to get in their face on these issues.

[Thor_MN]

31. An evangelist can't speak of democracy without being a hypocrit.

Evangelism is all about trying to push your own mindset on other people. There can be no such thing as the 1st ammendment to an evangelist, because then other people could say and do whatever they want. It would not be fair to say that the two are incompatible, Democracy embraces evangelism, while evangelism strangles Democracy.

My checkpoint has always been that if a concept leads to hypocrisy, there is something fundamentally flawed with that concept. Thinking back to Sunday school, I must have driven the teachers crazy, because everything lead back to "You have to have faith."
I learned at a young age that you can't get around the circular reasoning of a person that has "faith" - there's almost no point in arguing with them. Even if you completely destroy their "logic", they have faith that they are correct.
Their faith means that they don't have to take responsibilty if they are wrong, all mistakes were "god's will." By choosing not to choose responsibilty, they become carefree slaves to the will of those who define their "faith."

[are_we_united_yet]

58. I agree with your argument

well stated and it plays out that way. It really pisses me off though.

[Guava Jelly]

19. nothing we do will work with a anti democrat media

tearing apart any message we put out.
you cant beat a message and if you could you cant beat corrupt elections with corrupt machines ran by corrupt election officials.

[Merlin]

22. We need solutions not complaints.

Deal with it.

[Merlin]

23. The Man is telling the Truth. Here's why.

We can't win over all evangelicals. But we can win over a great many of them. I personally know literally dozens of them who were right on the edge in this campaign. What kept them from crossing over is their sense that we are amoral and spiritually ungrounded.

We are not amoral of course, nor are we devoid of spirituality. Liberals generally believe strongly in the moral values of making the world a better place, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, and on and on. And liberals resonate with the strongly spiritual idea of making the world a better place for all, rather than just grabbing what we can for ourselves.

We must start conveying our beliefs to them in language they understand. We can indeed gain the support of a great many Christians because many of them are very uncomfortable with the broader agenda of the right wing.

[madfloridian]

57. Stop trying to win them over by pretending to believe something.

Or by adopting their stances to pander. It is so obvious.

[Amigust]

62. Those that think they can persuade them should go for it,

others need to denounce them long and loudly and attack their tax status. Start the backlash now. They have demonstrated that as a group they far too dangerous to coddle.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

65. Let's do attack their tax status

I felt very let down by my Unity Church which is full of progressives. The minister insisted that all activity be non-partisan and didn't discuss the specifics of the election. He said because of the constraints re: tax status.

Meanwhile, I hear from friends that at a Catholic Church anti abortion flyers supporting Bush were in the pews - ostensibly unbeknownst to leadership there. I also know at my in-laws presbyterian church there was anti-gay rights talk from the pulpit.

Then there are the churches who turned over their membership roster to the GOP.

[alarimer]

24. We need to be tougher too

Instead of saying Bush wants to "privatize" Social Security, say that he wants to eliminate SS and replace it with a 401k. Repeat many times but use the word eliminate rather than privatize. This article in slate has other examples.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2109374/

Also, from the article:
"They would force a woman to bear her rapist's child even if she had to die doing so." Ford suggests language like this instead of the "I'm pro-life but I believe in a woman's right to choose," which satisfies no one.

[Justitia]

46. I agree! Another example, with Obama B -

We need serious, plain-spoken language calling a spade a spade.

Another valuable example: When Barak Obama was debating Alan Keyes and Keyes was going off on one of his insane, zealot tangents, Obama stopped him cold saying:

"I'm not running to be the preacher of Illinois, I'm running to be their Senator" - very effective!

End of ridiculous debate about who was more "moral".

We must point out the awful, glaring truths of their positions (like the abortion / rape example you mentioned) and clearly, bluntly show how we are different.

We cannot out-republican republicans, and we shouldn't because we're right and they are wrong (said by Clinton too).

We need abrupt, blunt, language of conviction - drawing the distinct differences between us. Howard Dean was VERY GOOD at this, which I found refreshing. Call 'em for what they are and all.

No matter what his detractors said about Dean, he was clear, blunt, devastatingly honest and YOU KNEW WHERE HE STOOD (isn't that what the other side claimed to find so appealing about Bush?).

You highlighted an excellent point, thank you.

[Q]

27. Well...Clinton was one of those responsible for taking the party....

...away from their core convictions. He compromised them away with Republicans that were able to blackmail him for his sexual indiscretions. He traded our principles so that he woudln't get kicked out of office.

- Clinton should just go away...along with the rest of the 'third wayers' who believe in saying and sacrificing anything in order to win.

[lcooksey]

32. Hypocrite

Talk about our convictions? This from the man who advised Kerry to endorse state same-sex marriage bans to win over conservative and moderate voters?

I agree with the principle, but for Bill to make this argument is rather silly.

[markus]

33. This will only be effective if it is both positive and negative

We have to isolate the Cult of LaHaye kool-aid drinkers from moderate suburban voters. The latter must understand that 1) the Democratic's convictions are not far from their own and 2) the evangelicals convictions are, in fact, antithetical to their own.

The core evangelicals must be isolated and ostricised, not played to.

[CWebster]

36. He is not in an ideal position to address the issue

from a fundamentalist viewpoint Clinton's personal behavior damaged Democratic credibility.

The Clintons have done much harm in their centrist manuevering, their shallow me-generation opportunism and their personal lack of discretion.

The Democrats have to hone a populus image that connects and serves--the Wellstone model.

[ElectroPrincess]

43. No! Us progressives need a major media outlet like FOX

How can Liberals and Progressives counter the LIES that are spewed about us each and EVERY DAY, when we have NO media voice save for Air America Radio.

Donate to AAR and PBS (tries to be balanced).

BTW I get no kick-backs but they are our only hope to get our true messages heard.

[tabasco]

52. Separation of church and state is not negotiable.

The fundies are the enemy if they do not agree with this principle. Democrats must stick to our ideals and the ideals of America, and not cave in to the forces of superstition and ignorance.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

66. Already am seeing reports that Fundies want their pay back

for getting Bush elected. That certainly is blurring the line.

[ananda]

42. Wrong.

Kerry/Dems lost the election because of voter fraud, e-machine hacking, and secret counting.

Repeat this meme 1000 times.

That's the ONLY reason we lost.

Any other excuse or belief is just a way of playing the mindf.uck game on Dems and liberals. We're just fine. Our beliefs and values are good. Anyone who says otherwise is colluding with the mindf.uckers.

Sue

[katmondoo]

45. Do not forget the part the media played with all of the Bush ass kissing

also the lies and the down right disgusting dirty politics from the swift boaters on down. They did what they always do well-- destroy a persons character.

[Bush was AWOL]

59. Wrong, Freeper.

That is the ridiculous meme you want us to repeat because it sounds so stupid to most Americans, and you know it.

[Malva Zebrina]

44. I think Clinton is naive about the evangelical community

but not politcally naive. Government apparently in Clinton's politcal mind, now has taken on a new role, that of steering religion and considering the "culture of life" from evnangelicals , who have always sought to inflitrate the government because they claim this is a Christian Nation. This is a Clinton DLC move--and I foresee further incursion of religion into our government. This should not be. Instead, there should be moreof a movement toward enforcing separation of church and state and protecting the rights of the minority religions, which evangelicals cannot abide. I foresee the minority religions having to fight tooth and nail for their rights, as well as other minority groups such as agnostics atheists et al.as pandering to the Christian right takes place in our government.

It is the same mentality that embraced the huge corporations because they were there and why not?-- shifting the Democratic party further to the right.

As a party the Democrats have now, (if Clinton is to be followed or believed and there is evidence and reports that would suggest they will take up that banner), been controlled by the evangelicals and other Christian groups just as they are under the thumb of the big time contributors, the corporations. For certain "liberal" will identify the fringe groups.



So we go down the road, having had more and more corporations rule our lives and the Christian religion will fall into that same slot. They will be oh so busy in congress down on their knees praying on the street corner like never before.

[shrike]

48. I disagree completely

We'd be much better off engaging the majority of Americans who are NOT evangelicals to vote on the real issues -- their pocketbooks being one of them.

I also think Clinton should shut up and go play golf.

[mortimer_az]

50. Clinton's right

We need to listen to him. Granted the Religious Wrong has helped steal the last two presidential elections, and we keep getting painted as heathens or pagans. Personally, I'm an atheist but I live my life according to pretty basic tenets. Treat others like you want to be treated and help those that need it according to the best of my means. I just have no use for belief in any god. But, that certainly doesn't mean that my values are any different from the moderate religious folk.

I can't imagine that the minority fundies have co-opted all of the rest of religion in this country. Most of the regular church-goers don't have anything in common with the conservatives.

We can focus on our values, strong families, helping those less fortunate, supporting education for all, and I bet we will start to pull in the "Red Sea" in center of the country.

[Amigust]

63. None of what we effectively communicate that we value

matters at all in a political system that enables, protects, and turns a blind eye to election theft. None of it.

[malachi]

51. Would discussing "our convictions" with radical Islamists change their

minds? I don't think so. Same result when dealing with whacked out evangelical assholes. Same mind set. It's their way or else.

[leesa]

53. BS. The problem is that our government, Repub and Dem is

a crime syndicate. Don't give us these BS platitudes that this is our failure. Our government stole it and they are blaming it onto us.

[Forkboy]

54. That would imply that the Dems stop running headlong from said convictions

[rman]

55. "culture of life" = "armageddon asap"?

is this one and the same Christian evangelical community?

Billy boy, ever tried engaging in a serious discussion with a Zionist Christian soldier?

[Snellius]

56. Blah Blah Blah

There is no compromising with religious fanatics who regard us as godless baby killers.

[Kellis]

60. The religious right

or atleast the religious fanatics that call themselves evangelicals need to be treated like a cult and dealt with as such.There is no room for their bigotry,hatred and discrimination in American Democracy.If it were up to them we'd all be pledging allegiance to Jesus Christ and Jesusland.
NO WAY will I be courting their vote!!

[Gyre]

61. Blow me Bill, I mean Monica!

Last thing I feel like doing at this point is conceding shit to any goddamn condescending, dumber than monkey-shit jesus freaks.

Gyre