U.S. helicopter reportedly shot down over Fallujah

[Divine Discontent]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6403689/

FALLUJAH, Iraq - A U.S. helicopter was shot down over Fallujah on Tuesday as U.S.-led forces were pressing home an offensive on the rebel-held city.

"I saw the helicopter collide with a rocket. It turned into a ball of fire and fell to the ground," Reuters reporter Fadel al-Badrani said. "There was smoke everywhere."

<snip>


Ladies & Gentlemen,

[alittlelark]

1. Have I told you all lately

HOW MUCH I HATE THESE PEOPLE!!!!

[juliagoolia]

15. Yes,..Yes you have

But Have I TOLD You how much I hate these things!
These things are not really human, they are animals.

[realcountrymusic]

2. hmm, probably a rocket collided with the helicopter

Sometimes syntax really is important. Where do they come up with these reporters?


Sorry if we lost guys, but I'm close to rooting for the insurgents. CNN's home page has a story about the attack with a photo gallery that shows US medics trying to stabilize a 4 year old injured by our fucking bombs.

And every interview I hear with a soldier is full of this Christian bravado, kick some Muslim ass bullshit. They do not seem to be distinguishing between civilians and insurgents. Or they are high on something.

Anyone catch Jessica Lynch on AAR today? What an airhead. She should be our presidential candidate.

RCM

[wtmusic]

3. Not sure if anyone can distinguish between civilians and insurgents

aren't they kind of the same thing now?

[still_one]

5. you are wrong to root for the insurgents

what is your problem?

any death is wrong, and you are as bad as them to "cheer" one death over another

It is our leadership that is screwed, not these soldiers who are caught in a no win situation

[JSJ]

18. bullshit- cheering for the underdog is correct

[DS1]

24. cheering for the underdog for the sake of cheering for the underdog is

equally ignorant.

[JSJ]

27. it isn't in these american troop-made massacuers of children and civilians

[The Stranger]

64. No one is above the law.

Attacking civilian areas knowing there are civilians there and that they are dying is a war crime. Underdog or not, defending or justifying the commission of war crimes is the most ignorant thing of all.

[mike_c]

48. respectfully disagree about "our soldiers...."

Yesterday one Marine dismissed civilians in Fallujah as simply being "in the wrong place at the wrong time," despite a weeks long siege in which only women and chidren under 14 were allowed to leave. He had ZERO concern for the welfare of civilians still trapped inside Fallujah. The Geneva Conventions require that all possible efforts be made to safeguard the civilian population during battle. In Fallujah "our soldiers" are deliberately targeting civilian homes, businesses, hospitals, and neighborhoods, where they know that approximately 100,000 citizens of Fallujah remain trapped by the siege. This is not tactical warfare. It is murder. It is terrorism in its most bald-faced form.

Would you defend the Nazis at Lidice? They too were "caught in a no-win situation." How about the Red Army at Grozny? Just following orders also.

[calmblueocean]

6. Shameful.

"close to rooting for the insurgents"? Ugh. I'm not in favor of this war, but I'm not so twisted I'm rooting for our own people to die. Geez.

BTW: I heard Jessica Lynch on AAR today, and found her honesty and earnestness charming.

[still_one]

7. I agree on both points

what kind of people would cheer for the demise of our soldiers?

I also appreciated Jessica Lynch's honesty. She never never said she was a hero, and circumstances brought her to where she was. What she is doing for are wounded soldiers is tremendous

[JSJ]

19. folks who aren't brainwashed yahoos, for one, cheer for the deaths...

...of soldiers killing children in a country not their own.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dhalgren]

47. Calm down.

It is difficult to come to grips with the FACT that the US is the "bad guy" here. No one likes it, but that is the fact. Any time a weak nation is invaded by a stronger one for the purposes of looting that weak nation, anyone would be on the side of the weaker, invaded nation. When Saddam invaded Kuwait, the whole world rose up to stop him - and for that very reason. No, you can couch your argument in "root for" sophomoric jargon, but the reality is that the US is the aggressor, the villain, if you will. "Root" for whomever you want, but don't lose sight of the reality...

[realcountrymusic]

22. I expressed myself badly

I certainly do not "root" for the death of our soldiers, but I can't join the rah rah in this country of people also "rooting" for a rout of Fallujah. We are killing innocent people there by the dozens and hundreds as we all write these words.

And on the other hand, I've heard a lot of "rah rah" interviews with Marines about to go into Fallujah where our boys have said some pretty amazingly boorish things. Maybe you have to get that way to be stoked for battle. But frankly what I've heard juxtaposed with pics of bleeding four year olds makes me sick. Ignorant, racist bullshit.

So I'm not sure I'm "rooting" for anyone except the civilians to survive this shit and Jesus or Muhammad to come out of fucking retirement and smite all the warmakers.

And sometimes I wonder whether it won't take a catastrophic loss or battlefield disaster to make this damn country wake up the way it did after the Beirut barrack bombings and the fall of Saigon. Sometimes a short sharp shock is better than endless attrition.

I know a lot of our kids are scared, and getting shot at. But they weren't drafted, and a lot of them signed up because they wanted to do this shit. Especially the ones who joined the Marines. And the ones who didn't have been put through a brutalizing process to make them into killers. They can talk about defending this country all they want, but either they are brainwashed or they must be dealing with some serious cognitive dissonance and mission creep right now, cuz the only thing they are defending is George Bush's sorry ass legacy and his oil buddies' bottom lines. In Vietnam this had an interesting effect, which was called, I believe, "fragging" officers who pushed men into senseless deathtraps to get glory for themselves. Wanna bet we lose a few officers under mysterious circumstances in Fallujah?

This is a bad war, the wrong war. There is no way out. The insurgency *will* win. Insurgencies *always* win over occupying armies in the end, certainly armies that aren't willing to kill everyone in their path. They have every reason to hold on and win. Think Soviets in Afghanistan. Think NVA. And think of what our boys will have to do to keep history from repeating here, which is something so immoral I cannot support it.

Rock and a hard place. The insurgents are thugs. But we are a collective thug and have sent our bully boys to the match.

Or does anyone seriously think we are there to liberate the Iraqi people? We liberated them alright. Straight into the hands of a fascist Islamic insurgency no better than Saddam. But then, neither are we.


rcm

[llmart]

31. Good post and I agree.

Please stop saying how these volunteers in the military "had no choice." What did they think they were doing when they signed up - enrolling in a yoga class? And I don't wish death on any of our soldiers or the Iraqi innocents either, but do the soldiers know how the Bush supporters here at home are salivating over this shit? It's the Bush supporters who are sick; not those of us here at DU who have opposed this war from the get-go.

In this country it takes dire consequences to wake the masses up, just like it did during VietNam. We have very little foresight, so if something dire has to happen before we say enough already, then so be it.

[Bhaisahab]

32. real good response.

good.

[liberalmuse]

38. Funny...

I read your first post and didn't get that you were cheering insurgents at all. I understood your point, but 10 people jumped down your throat. You didn't deserve that.

I am sickened by this attack on Fallujah. I am sickened that our military is being used as an extension of the brutal arm of the hopelessly twisted neocon ideology. I'm just going to hope that there isn't a mass slaughter of civilians. Oh, excuse me, '''''insurgents'''''. I'm sure most of the people killed, including women and children are somehow responsible for the beheadings. This will be a disaster, just like everything else Bush touches, and no good will come of it for our soldiers, or the Iraq people.

[realcountrymusic]

56. yep, I said "CLOSE to rooting"

I didn't say I *was* "rooting for the insurgents." It was a rhetorical figure (hyperbole, to be exact).

RCM

[al bupp]

43. And now, you've expressed yourself well, Sir /nt

[jmcgowanjm]

45. The insurgents are thugs, and Saddam was our stooge

IR are engaging the invaders with a type of weapons that
was not used since the famous Airport battle before the fall
of Baghdad.
This from Mafkarat al Islam.

Of course I can't source Mafkarat al Islam here because,
well basically because the CW 1st, doesn't know about any
famous airport battle and 2nd, well it just
doesn't show US in good light.

That must be changed. Since hospitals and information itself
are the primary initial targets, the only conclusion can be that
the United States wants to cover up in advance the atrocities
it will commit, atrocities almost certainly on a greater scale
than in the last assault.

When the United States bombed Serbian TV during the war
on Yugoslavia, with the same rationale that it
spread propaganda and was thus a military target,
Amnesty International determined that the attack was a
war crime. How much greater a war crime it is to occupy
a hospital (oh, and just by the way, the U.S. military is
launching attacks on the resistance from positions near
the hospital, thus making it in effect a military target for the
other side as well) because it is reporting on the victims of
this brutal assault.

If you want a symbol of Bush's second term, at home
and abroad, there is no more potent one than this
action.

http://uruknet.info/.?p=m6951

oh, and this symbol-Kerry actually has the balls to say he
wants to run again in'08.

[donkeyotay]

63. they admitted as much, that they didn't want civilian casualties shown

You said, "the only conclusion can be that the United States wants to cover up in advance the atrocities it will commit,"

Yes, our first target captured was a hospital, and before that we bombed one to rubble, according to the BBC:

US strikes raze Falluja hospital

A hospital has been razed to the ground in one of the heaviest US air raids in the Iraqi city of Falluja.
Witnesses said only the facade remained of the small Nazzal Emergency Hospital in the centre of the city. There are no reports on casualties.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3988433.stm

If nothing else can be said about this administration, they are much more concerned with appearances than reality.

[donkeyotay]

62. Well, now you have expressed yourself very well

I particularly liked:

"They can talk about defending this country all they want, but either they are brainwashed or they must be dealing with some serious cognitive dissonance and mission creep right now, cuz the only thing they are defending is George Bush's sorry ass legacy and his oil buddies' bottom lines."

We are caught in a conundrum that will tear US apart. I hold our leadership, not the troops accountable, but there is a logical inconsistency to believing that.

Consider how the troops took the blame at Abu Ghraib. The leadership claimed that all soldiers are taught to NOT obey an immoral, illegal order and that they will be held accountable if they go outside the laws of warfare.

To my mind, everything we're doing in Iraq - let alone Fallujah - falls outside the rule of law. We do not have justice on our side.

What we are doing also defies the stated objective of propping up a plausible government there. Everything I have read indicates that attacking Fallujah will be counterproductive to establishing enough national unity to keep this from spiraling into civil war.

[WCGreen]

69. Damn good post........

[The Stranger]

65. Your post seems to miss the point here..

When an attacker is attacking someone illegally, do you root for the attacker?

[KingChicken]

33. You don't remember Vietnam, nobody seems to remember

It gets to a point when our own soldiers become the enemy, this is happening now, they will lose their own humanity if we stay in Iraq. No American soldier can roll the clock back after they kill people, once your hands are stained with blood they remain that way forever, the ultimate price is not death, it's causing the deaths of others.

[Catchawave]

44. I remember Vietnam ....

and thinking of the families of the troops right now :( At least back then, the *news* wasn't public until after the CACO's visit. The poor families are learning about casualties instantly now and I wish the news channels would be more sensitive to them.

What am I thinking !!??!! Forgot, ratings.

[barbaraann]

54. Perhaps the goal of the BFEE is to take our humanity away.

You said something profound:

"..the ultimate price is not death, it's causing the deaths of others."

[bowens43]

39. why is one worse then the other?

You have to remember that the US is the bad guy in this war.

Personally , I don't want anyone to die but I would rather see a dead soldier then a dead civilian regardless of their nationality.

[RummyTheDummy]

9. Even if you are thinking it.....

Probably not a good idea to say it. But we do live a free country. My response would have been it's not my problem.

Which incidentally is my response to the person who started the thread. It's regretable. I wish it wasn't happening. But it's not my problem.

[sr_pacifica]

12. Yeah, why I posted the very vague "ditto"

Don't want to end up on a "no-fly" list.

[sr_pacifica]

11. ditto n/t

[jfern]

16. The media got bored of their phony coverage

They're back talking about every last detail of the Scott Peterson case.

[qazplm]

21. you know what

screw you if you are close to rooting for the insurgents, our soldiers are not the ones to blame, they follow orders or they go to jail, they dont have a choice, you blame the ones that sent them there but not them.

Bravado is what keeps them sane, its just all nervous bluster.

[mike_c]

50. the Nazis were just following orders at Lidice....

The Russians were just following orders at Grozny. Do you excuse their brutality as well?

The murder of civilans is terrorism in its purest form. Our Marines are acting as terrorists-- their objective is to create a blood bath in Fallujah as an example to the Sunnis, just as the massacre of Lidice was an example to the Czechs. Do you really believe they deserve to be honored for this?

[livinbella]

57. You make a very convincing argument

I cannot come up with a reasonable refutation

[realcountrymusic]

58. See my mea culpa above

but screw you too. Our soldiers -- certainly the elite Marines now attacking Fallujah -- volunteered to do this stuff and the Marines I know are kinda in to what they do (other than the onese who have actually been to war).

I do blame the ones that sent them there, which I emphasize in my follow-up post. In fact, I blame myself and all Americans (I'm a member of the "blame America, at last" crowd).
We never seem to learn. That's why empires eventually fall.

Soldiers are not neutral. They are the tools of empire, and just following orders is not a moral defense.

rcm

[Algorem]

40. we're so courageous with our bombs.

[KansDem]

46. How about "a rocket HIT a helicopter?"

Let's give credit where credit is due...

The media makes it sound like some kind of mid-air fenderbender.

[TheIdiot]

51. Please, RCM...

you've been around here long enough to know that some of us have loved ones over there. It's one thing to want change, but not at the expense of our own. Haven't we learned that lesson yet?

[realcountrymusic]

59. indeed, how do you know

I don't have loved ones over there? I do. I am terrified I'll lose someone close to me.

This war is at the expense of every one of us. I never said I wanted to see our soldiers killed. I didn't even say I *was* "rooting for the insurgents." I said I was *close* to it out of sheer frustration with America's somnambulant state. That was a FIGURE OF SPEECH.

But here's another way to think about it. Eventually, we will get our butts kicked out of Iraq. It is a pointless war. The insurgents, as we call them, are freedom fighters to millions of Arabs. We lost 55,000 boys, give or take, in Vietnam. We've lost 1200, give or take, of our boys and girls and moms and dads in Iraq. What would it take to stop this shit before it takes a decade and a generation?

I wish fervently for a bloodless end to all of this. I DO NOT ROOT FOR OUR SOLDIERS TO SUFFER. Do I need to repeat it? I root for our country to come to its f'ing senses and realize there is no "winning" a war based on false and immoral premises.

rcm

[mike_c]

61. message from Fallujah....

http://www.usmlo.org/archive2003/2003-05/photos/mayday/030501.iraq,%20fallujah.03.jpg

[NC_Nate]

4. Jessica Lynch is on

right now.. on AAR

[Qanisqineq]

8. conservatives like live babies so they can have dead soldiers

paraphrasing George Carlin

[Divine Discontent]

10. carlin... woo!

some wacky but oddly truthful stuff.

and ya gotta love the helicopter hitting the rocket, right??? when I posted I was like whatever... these reporters!

I pray for an end to combat operations that my President said happened like a year and a half ago, right??????

[Qanisqineq]

13. yeah, they supposedly ended

about a month before my husband went over there. He's back now, but he can tell you the shit didn't stop when George pranced around in his flight suit.

I don't know if that is the actual Carlin quote, but I know I got pretty close.

[tomreedtoon]

14. Before we get too offended...

I heard a military expert on Nightline claiming that Fallujah would be easy to "pacify" because of American "air superiority." Like the copter that was just shot down, probably with a LAW or a shoulder-mounted antiaircraft weapon. (Like the kind the CIA happily handed out in the area a while ago.)

Curious how a bunch of "towelheads" can knock down our multi-million dollar aircraft and kill our guys so easily.

And the same expert claimed only the "foreign rebels" would run; the "native-born" ones would stay, hole up in single buildings, and become easy targets for our troops. No wonder they shorted our troops on body armor and ammunition.

[Guaranteed]

17. You know, I'm really torn right now.

Part of me knows that that is REALLY fucked up, our soldiers dying, and the other part of me is saying- "You know what? I don't really fucking GIVE a shit, because this is what the Bush supporters want."

Any RW piece of shit quoting me had better use everything I just said.

[TheIdiot]

52. You know they won't....

they'll only use the hateful part because that's what makes us look bad to the 51%. WHEN WILL WE LEARN?!?!?

[Porcupine]

20. "If I had a rocket launcher, I would retaliate..."

Google "rocket launcher song" by Bruce Coburn (sp?)

It's about Guatamala but expresses the feelings of those who have to stand under the threat of those helicopters. Military helicopters are evil tools of repression the world over. Ask a Palestinian.

AmeriKa is a prison nation. We hold pretend elections. Our "leaders" murdered our own people for political advantage in the 9/11 attacks. AmeriKan sourced anthrax was used to attack the press and Democratic Senators. We have looted the pensions and the savings of our elderly in the Enron scandals. The list of sins is very, very long.

Oh and we kill little kids in other lands so we can steal oil they would have sold us at market prices.

If I, personally had a rocket launcher and was on the ground in Fallujah as an Iraqi....I too would retaliate. I would bet that an Iraqi child DIES for every U.S soldier injured.

I want my nation to be about something other than stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.

Those soldiers were volunteers. The U.S. military has been nothing but a corporate foriegn legion for over 30 years now. It's not a video game. They chose their Karma.

[JSJ]

23. also; for every troop killed, an iraqi child may live- good post! nt

[malaise]

25. Not that Simple

My nephew returned home from Iraq in August. He was supposed to return home six months earlier but they were forced to stay on and on.
Was he a volunteer? Well he should have gone to college in 1999(did well in his SATs) but postponed for a year because his girl friend was at the Community College. She became pregnant. He decided to marry her so he signed up in 2000 for four years. Did he expect 9/11 and an illegal war? Not at all - he was terrified. He's lucky and returned with all his body parts but he is bitter and disillusioned.

The week after he left seven soliders in his group were killed. Truthfully, Im just glad he's home and alive but one week more and his wife and daughter would have been on their own. i hate the war and really feel it for the poor citizens of Iraq. Afterall their home country was invaded and I assume that people across the globe will resist invaders.

I feel sorry for kids like my nephew who did not join the army as zealots looking for war. He's lucky - he will start college next year, but only because his folks are willing to give them the basement apartment. He could have been killed.

[heyphillip]

26. Chopper shot down

I haven't heard anything in the news media about this chopper being shot down.

[donkeyotay]

67. Hey, heyphillip - you've got it all wrong. No chopper was shot down.

It was, as someone here said, a fenderbender. The chopper ran into a rocket. A soldier threw himself on an IED, and another stepped in front of a speeding bullet.

No one is responsible. Stuff happens.

[JSJ]

28. how did he get accepted into college with such a woeful lack of...

...knowledge of American-style wars? He should have known that an American 'war' would be genocide. If not, why not? Is he stupid? Was he spending all his time at the mall? The video arcade? The porno palace? What? Ignorance is no excuse under the law. Bet he- and possibly you- didn't know that either.

[malaise]

29. Reasonable Question

How was he to know about US war? He was born eight years after Vietnam and his father apparently didn't think it was important enough to teach him about harsh reality. His mother arrived in the US a year after Vietnam ended. I think the kid became confused after his parents' divorce and decided to make his own decisions.
He signed up before 9/11 despite opposition from the entire family. He is an outdoors type kid. I concede that he lacked political consciousness but how many kids in that country have a clue about reality. I am very conscious of the US role on the planet but he ignored my advice.

[JSJ]

30. no full-time male in kids lives is an old and sad story w/our youth...

...but indulge me, again, and say, if you know, what this kid plans on doing with his life, now. Thanks in advance.

[TheIdiot]

55. If ignorance WERE an excuse...

then you, sir, would be absolved for life. Hopefully between now and the mid-term elections, someone will clue you in on the fact that your brand of insensitivity contributed greatly to our loss on Tuesday. You do us no favors.

[JSJ]

68. oh boo, fucking hoo- your 'heroes' are criminals, pure and simple

[pinerow]

42. She "became" pregnant...what an odd choice of words...It amazes

me that people can "become" pregnant with all the good contraceptives on the market today.

[tkmorris]

36. I love that song

I have been unable to find a CD or record with it but I do have an MP3 (sorry Bruce, tell me where to send the cash, ok man?).

Personally, I can't find it in me to cheer for anyone. The whole thing is just freaking horrible. If you must cheer for one side or the other though, please cheer for whoever you believe is the most innocent in all of this.

[al bupp]

41. Great Song

By Bruce Cockburn, released on Stealing Fire, 1984. Bruce's tunes helped keep me sane through the dark years of the Reagan regime...

Here comes the helicopter -- second time today
Everybody scatters and hopes it goes away
How many kids they've murdered only God can say
If I had a rocket launcher...I'd make somebody pay

I don't believe in guarded borders and I don't believe in hate
I don't believe in generals or their stinking torture states
And when I talk with the survivors of things too sickening to relate
If I had a rocket launcher...I would retaliate

On the Rio Lacantun, one hundred thousand wait
To fall down from starvation -- or some less humane fate
Cry for guatemala, with a corpse in every gate
If I had a rocket launcher...I would not hesitate

I want to raise every voice -- at least I've got to try
Every time I think about it water rises to my eyes.
Situation desperate, echoes of the victims cry
If I had a rocket launcher...Some son of a bitch would die

[UpInArms]

35. related article: US denies chopper down in Fallujah

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200411/s1239540.htm

The United States military denies a helicopter has been shot down over the embattled Iraqi city of Fallujah.

"There was no Multi-National Force-Iraq helicopter shot down," the military said in a statement.

A Reuters reporter in Fallujah says he saw a US helicopter crash after being hit by a rocket.

He says the helicopter came down in the city's Jolan district.

"We have spoken to our operations control centre and they say they have no such reports," a US spokesman said.

<snip>

Residents are reporting seeing smoke rising from across the city amid constant explosions.

...more...

Wonder if this denial is like the ones about wedding parties, civilians killed, etc. ?

Who would believe our "spokeman" anyway?

[maddezmom]

37. military admits a Kiowa took fire link:

A Kiowa helicopter flying over southeast Fallujah took groundfire Tuesday, injuring the pilot, but he managed to return to the U.S. base. By midday, U.S. armored units had made their way to the central highway in the heart of the city, crossing over into the southern part of Fallujah, a major milestone.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=1&u=/ap/20041109/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

[jmcgowanjm]

49. Going to need something to confirm Reuters

I mean what is the credibility of a news service which
is targeted by US snipers.

[PatriotGames]

53. Is this true? I have not seen anything else on it.

[bushisanidiot]

60. Anyone see the movie Red Dawn? It's hard not to cheer for the wolverines

as they struggle to attack the invaders through guerrilla warfare tactics. Why can't the repukes see that the Iraqi "insurgents" are the wolverines?

[Zero Gravitas]

66. How far is Megiddo from Fallujah?

The right wing blood lust won't be satisfied with turning a few cites like Fallujah into rubble...