Why Nader could be the nail in Democrats' coffin

[kskiska]

He holds just a few per cent of the votes, but that could be enough to tip the scales the Republican way - just as it did in 2000, reports Paul Harris

Ralph Nader surveyed a packed hall of Florida students who had come to hear about his third-party tilt for the presidency. 'I am not here to flatter you. I'm going to take you to task,' he warned in his opening sentence.

'I am looking at the future,' he said dismissively, glaring at the sea of, in his view, apathetic and politically unaware young faces. 'And the future looks much like the past.'

(snip)

That prospect has Democrats terrified. Last week, several new opinion polls showed how crucial Nader could be. In New Jersey the independent has just 2 per cent support, but Bush and Kerry are tied at 48 per cent.

In New Hampshire, Bush and Kerry are tied at 46 per cent, while Nader again has 2 per cent. In Colorado, the former consumer crusader has 3 per cent, leaving Bush with a one-point lead over Kerry. Without Nader, Kerry would probably be winning there. Some Democrats are starting to see the nightmare of 2000 all over again.

more…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1318663,00.html

[AZCat]

1. Nader was on the ballot in 2000...

and Gore still won.

Nader (for all his inches of press coverage) isn't going to be a serious contender, and won't even approach the numbers he got in 2000.

[dolstein]

18. In case you hadn't noticed, Bush is president

If Nader hadn't been on the ballot in Florida, Gore would be president.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at the extent to which Nader's supporters will avoid telling the truth. After all, Nader himself hasn't spoken the truth for years.

[w4rma]

32. I refuse to call that thief "president". However, he does for all purposes

hold the power of the presidency. Everything else in your post, I am in full agreement with, dolstien.

[AZCat]

34. See post #33

I apologize for not being clear enough in my post.

[JackDragna]

37. Yes..

..and if the International World Worker's Party hadn't been on the ballot, either, we would've won. Nader-blaming is an iron shackle around this party that needs to be done away with, permanently.

[krkaufman]

43. In what state, exactly, did the IWWP get more votes....

... than the diff b/w Gore and Bush?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

56. Those that ignore or try to forget REAL historical events are doomed....

...to repeat them. Nader was indeed a factor in the 2000 election, a fact which nobody in their right mind can deny.

If Nader had not been a presidential "candidate", Gore would have undoubtedly gotten the lion's share of the votes cast for Nader. That would have undoubtedly caused enough states to have cast their electoral votes for Gore. That, in turn, would have prevented the NeoCons from taking the action they took in Florida to take control of the country.

You don't like discussing Nader, that traitorous POS? Too bad. If you want to live in a world of fantasy try a few of the Science Fiction forums.

[Green Lantern]

69. Please explain

why Nader did not have a right to run, and why I did not have a right to vote for him if I chose? Nader was not a Democrat running against Gore. The primaries were over. Nader was a legitimate candidate. Just because it didn't suit you is no reason to disallow his candidacy.

Dream on, thinking that most Nader voters would have voted Gore. You have no clue. Most of us would never have voted Gore if Nader hadn't run, and you still would have lost.

BTW how come you folks never mention the Buchanan votes? Or those conservatives that cost Bushwa ? Could it be because it doesn't fit your conspiracy theory?

When are you folks going to realize that Nader and his supporters ARE NOT DEMOCRATS? WE BELONG TO AN OPPOSITION PARTY! What is so hard to understand about that?

[AndyTiedye]

90. Would You Please Explain Nader's Swing State Strategy in 2000

I would really like to know, because I used to respect the man,
and I was shocked by what I saw in 2000. If there is a reasonable
explanation, I would love to hear it.

He SAID he was merely trying to reach 5% for Federal matching.
Yet he spent all of the critical closing days of the campaign
in swing states, CAMPAIGNING AGAINST GORE! He was even
accepting Republican advertising.

We only saw him in California when he needed money, which is odd,
because he could have gotten many more votes if he had campaigned
more actively here. Instead he spent most of his time in states
with few potential Green voters, but a great potential for tipping
the election to Bush*.

He went to court to block the "Nader traders", who could have gotten
him more votes, at the expense of his spoiler margin in the swing
states.

Then there is this article:
http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/24/24/moberg2424.html
which makes it perfectly clear that he was and is pursuing a
deliberate spoiler strategy:

At an editorial meeting of the Capital Times in Madison, Nader talks about his encounter as a Princeton undergraduate with longtime Socialist presidential candidate Norman Thomas. Hinting at his own possible strategy, Nader recounts asking Thomas his greatest accomplishment, to which Thomas replied, "having my agenda stolen by the Democratic Party." Yet Nader, who argues the Democratic party is irremediably corrupt, also talks about leading the Greens into a "death struggle" with the Democratic party to determine which will be the majority party.

While riding between campaign stops in Michigan, Nader talks at length about how he saw the campaign fitting into his long-term vision for American politics. Although he argues that Democrats who share his views should think strategically and vote for him in states where either Bush or Gore is far ahead (say Texas or New York, respectively), Nader rejects the corollary that people should vote for Gore in states where the race was close. "If you ask me," he says, "I wouldn't vote for Gore under any circumstances."

He acknowledges that if he were voting in the district of a progressive Democrat congressman, like Rep. Henry Waxman of California, he would support Waxman. Then again, if there was a Green candidate, even a weak one, he said he would vote against his longtime ally. "There's an overriding goal here, and that's to build a majority party," he says. "If you're going to build a new party, you go all the way."

"I hate to use military analogies," he continues, "but this is war on the two parties. After November we're going to go after the Congress in a very detailed way, district by district. We're going to beat them in every possible way. If winning 51 to 49 percent, we're going to go in and beat them with Green votes.

[The Magistrate]

106. We Are All Well Aware, Mr. Lantern

Wrecker Nader and his supporters are opponents of the Democratic Party. In the current political situation, the only practical form their opposition to the Democratic Party can take is the lending of support to the hopes for victory of the Republican Party, for the fact of the matter is that our political system is ranged into two broad coalitions, one decisively reactionary, and one to some degree progressive. You may not like that, but it is the actual situation. Persons on the left who will not join in a Popular Front with left-center and center elements under the banner of the Democratic Party are, objectively, providing assistance to the reactionary coalition, by reducing the effective strength of the more progressive one.

What suprises many here is that persons who are dedicated to the defeat of the Democratic Party's candidate for President, and intending to act in a manner that will benefit the Republican Party, express such a degree of surprise and hurt that they are greeted in this forum with some hostility....

"You can't cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[fujiyama]

47. Nader is scum of the earth

but we can't waste too much time or energy worrying about him. I agree that his signatures must be taken to task. So must the republican help he's been recieving. I also would urge all liberals to show EXCITEMENT FOR Kerry. Potential Nader voters must be shown that Kerry has a great liberal voting record - that he wouldn't have taken the country to war and that he'd be strong on all other issues they care deeply about.

Most of his voters from '00 already know the stakes. They've seen the differences.

I really don't believe that at this point, anyone that is going to vote for Nader would vote for Kerry in any situation. Maybe a few, but those are few and far between.

The article is somewhat more alarming than need be. Kerry must worry more about stupid people that will vote for Bush "because he keeps us safe".

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. Speaking of the truth, Bush was NEVER legally elected...

...unless you consider the 5-4 decision by the Supreme Court to be a legitimate election.

If FratBoy is YOUR president, you're welcome to him.

[Green Lantern]

68. When are you folks

going to deal with reality-your party is dying. You lost in '94, you got creamed in '02, you allow two standards for counting absentee ballots in Fl in 2000, don't effectively contest the disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of black voters, your senators don't step up to the plate for them after the election and on and on and still you blame Ralph Nader-no wonder you are losing ground.

BTW how do you account for the losses of '94 and '02? Ralph wasn't running.
You are running out of excuses faster than you are running out of Reagan Democrats.

Your DLC chases the money just as hard as does the RNC, you abandon liberals and liberal values, and yet you wonder why people no longer believe in your message? Could it be that what the DP says and what the DP does are too far apart?

Time for a reality check.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

95. And when are you going to deal with the reality that Nader.....

...is not a party builder? For the last 3 1/2 years he was nowhere to be found. Did he try to build up the Green party? Fuck no he couldn't even get their nomination.

The only reason Nader is appearing on as many state ballots as he is is because of Republican efforts to get him on there. Likewise most of his campaign money comes from Republicans.

Nader has sold out the causes he once stood for and you're living in a fantasy land if you think otherwise.

[fudge stripe cookays]

101. You might want to re-examine

the NAME of this board.

It's Democratic Underground.

If you have a problem with "our" party, I'm sure there's a nice Independent Underground that would be happy to listen to your whining.

FSC

[The Magistrate]

107. The Democratic Party, Mr. Lantern

Received more votes for President in 2000 than did the Republican. It received more than twenty times the votes your favorite splinter tendency received. The wrecker you adhere to will receive no more than one percent of the vote nationwide this time, as there really are very few people so other-wordly as to cast a vote for the wretch in the current crisis facimng the country.

Your cry in this regard is the same cry as the that of the current administration concerning Iraq: you hope that if you say a thing loud enough and often enough, that will make it true. But it will not.

"They don't take chocolate money out in the big world, Arthur...."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Andromeda]

113. This is Democratic Underground.

Members of this forum follow the rules if they are to be in good standing and do not espouse views antithetical to the Democratic party platform such as advocating the destruction and abolition of the Democratic party.

It's okay to disagree with some things and offer suggestions to make it better but that's not your purpose. You want to destroy the only party that has any hope whatsoever in saving this country from the fascists who have taken our democracy hostage.

Ralph Nader passed his peak long ago and he now stands for nothing. His values as well as yours have no redeeming value as they have no practical solution.

You and others like you are the ones losing ground because you have no competent representation. All you want to do is tear down and not build up. Ralph Nader has passed his effectiveness to your cause and I can't understand why you want to be pulled down with him.

You are the one who needs a reality check, my friend. Wake up and smell the coffee.

[x84722]

98. I thought Gore did win in Florida.

I thought Gore did win in Florida.

[LisaL]

31. I don't think anybody here would want Kerry to win

like Gore did. It's not really a win unless you are declared president, is it?

[AZCat]

33. Yes, I agree.

I see that my post was not as clear as it should have been. I merely meant that even with Nader on the ballot in 2000 Gore still managed to get more votes (both popular and electoral college) than Bush. Yes, Nader made it close enough for the Bush team to "steal" the election, but I don't see how Nader could make MORE of a difference now than then, as I feel that his influence has waned.

Sorry for the confusion.

[gmoney]

2. Nader can kiss my ass...

If he doesn't bow out and throw his support to Kerry, he'll prove he's just a Repub stooge.

That and every idiot that votes for him should be personally held accountable for the coming Bush apocalypse.

[Green Lantern]

70. Hey son

get real, the DP is responsible for Bush, not Nader.

Nader did not cost Gore Tenn, Ark. of W Va. You folkks just keep dreaming and role into history as a newly minted third party.

[The Magistrate]

108. None Of That Matters, Fellow

The fact remains that the votes cast for Wrecker Nader by deluded dilletants suckered by the "not a dime's worth of difference" line in Florida are responsible for the current condition of the people and the country. That you attempt to wriggle away from that fact is understandable, for you seek the same outcome in the current election, only you lack the intestinal fortitude to state so openly....

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[KittyWampus]

3. Sad To See The Guardian Being Used For GOP Spin

this isn't the first time.

Project Mockingbird must've included UK.

[private_ryan]

17. what spin?

they're using poll numbers. 2% matters when you're in a tight election

[Child_Of_Isis]

19. You mean the GOP biased polls? n/t

[private_ryan]

26. whatever

we love them when they're on our side...

[Child_Of_Isis]

27. When they are on our side,

it means that we are so far ahead that they haven't any choice but to admit it. Plus, now they know that they are being watched (think Gallup) and may be busted out.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

59. Maybe you ought to take a closer look at some of the polls and....

...who owns them.

Maybe you also ought to look at the methodologies used by these polls such as calling more Republicans to slant the results of their polling toward the GOP.

[fujiyama]

48. The article

is a bit more alarming than necessary, but it's good that the potential for Nader to spoil the election is covered by the paper.

Many Naderites probably do read the Guardian. Hopefully it will convince them that a vote for Nader accomplishes absolutely nothing and that only a vote for Kerry is a vote to get Bush out of office.

[mourningdove92]

4. Hogwash.

Just another way to denigrate the Democrats and Kerry...note the line

"That prospect has Democrats terrified."

bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. Nader can run all he wants. He means nothing in this race.

[AZCat]

12. How come I never meet any of these "Democrats"?

As often as the members of the Democratic Party are portrayed as weak or worried or wishful in the press, I have yet to meet any of these people. You would think the party would be overflowing with them, as opposed to the loyal, supportive, and confident members I encounter instead.

[Green Lantern]

74. Could it be

because they don't speak to you? They talk to us tho, and the message is that they agree with the Greens, they like what Nader says, but, and you can thank your lucky stars for this, they feel too strongly about Bush to abandon the DP.

I worked a pol booth at a statewide fair last weekend and had 1500 to 1600 folks stop on Saturday, the vast majority told us just exactly what I wrote above.

The DP is losing the trust of every day folks in this state. What the DP says and what it does are light years apart.

[The Magistrate]

109. In Other Words, Dear

They have a damned sight more sense than you in political matters. They understand the realities of our political system, and surpass me as much in kindness as they do you in wisdom....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[onehandle]

16. Yep. He'll only get a fraction of what he got in 2000. nt

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. He gets no press, he isn't on most ballots, he never interviews

He gets what I would call bilge votes, votes that would go to grey water candidates that appear on every ballot.

[Rowdyboy]

10. Sadly, he's on 34 ballots and still fighting in 7 states...

He has the potential to be a spoiler

[Francine Frensky]

49. Actually he gets a LOT of press, considering he

has no chance in hell of getting elected.

EVERYBODY in America knows his name. He gets lots of stories on CNN's political shows.

The GOP loves him and he's helping them. He is a traitor.

[Green Lantern]

71. Traitor to whom?

He is not a Democrat.

[The Magistrate]

110. He Is, Dear, A Traitor To The Left And Progressive Movement

He is acting as the witting agent of the worst elements of reaction in our polity, since he is doing everything in his power to secure the election of the miserable reptiles who currently control the government of our country. That, indeed, makes him a traitor to the people and the country itself....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[uhhuh]

112. The Green Party

He has abandoned them since they didn't annoint him their leader this year, and is hurting their efforts to become a influential party.

Other than on Pacifica Radio, and in other progressive media sources, I have not even heard Cobb's name metioned, but he is the presidential candidate for the Green Party. It's like nader is the only candidate that exists other than the chimp and Kerry.

[Dr Fate]

6. There is no coffin- and Nader will do nothing.

He is barely a factor this year.

[cleofus1]

7. hi doc!

I hope you're right about the nadir...I'm really starting to lose respect for that guy...

[mike_c]

8. Nader speaks the truth that no one wants to hear....

"...the future looks much like the past."

[cleofus1]

9. right buddy....

nadir is a repug ass puppet...whose infatuation with dogging this election borders on narcissisum...(hey is that spelled right?)

[llmart]

52. Just remove the "u"....

narcissism

[aquart]

13. Nader is a whore who wouldn't know the truth if it bit him.

The day after he's buried I hope to visit his grave and dance.

He's a fascist tool and has even said he wants to be, because it would get more votes for his cause if the United States were destroyed by Bush.

There are special places in hell for a man who wants others to suffer to achieve his goals. Well, actually, that makes him just like Bush, doesn't it?

[dolstein]

20. If by "truth" you really mean "lies"

then I'd say you're 100% correct.

The only truth anyone around here needs to know is that Nader is more interested in defeating Kerry than he is improving the world we live in.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WhiteTara]

25. actually it looks so grim that four more years of chimpy

will be the end of the world 

[dolstein]

30. Again, you're kidding yourself

One poll comes out showing Kerry leading -- WITHIN THE MARGIN OF ERROR -- and suddenly the Nader apologists come out of the workwork to proclaim that it's safe to vote third party again.

I have some news for you -- there's an excellent chance that the identity of the next president will not be known immediately after election day. BOTH campaigns are preparing for recounts and contested results in several states. There is every reason to believe that this election will be just as close as the last one.

[SoCalDem]

38. Can't recount vapor...

You can bet your last dollar, that the shenanigans will take place in areas that have BBV..

Garbage IN...Garbage OUT..

and just you watch.. the next thing will be to have ALL states remove the recount provisions completely.. That will "solve" that pesky paper ballot issue completely.. No re-fitting of machines necessary :(

[teryang]

53. Right, meaningful recounts not possible with evoting

That has been the unresolved constitutional dilemna from the outset. The funny thing is that the states went ahead and adopting electronic voting without coming to grips with this due process problem (which was well understood by the experts in the industry). The lobbyists just gave the legislators bland reassurances with no foundation in fact and they went along like sheep.

How in the hell did that happen?

[SoCalDem]

89. Money, Money, Money, Moneeeeeeeey

They saw the "opportunity" of HAVA cash, and there was a deadline to receive it, so they ignored any thoughtful process, and opened the doors to the "salesmen".:(

[The Zanti Regent]

50. No, here is the Truth Lying Ralph hides!

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm

[Media_Lies_Daily]

57. And if Nader has his way, Bush will maintain control of the White House...

...Nader is a lying GOP-controlled scumbag. Maybe you need to start listening to some truth for a change.

[Green Lantern]

72. Are you partisan?

Where do you get the idea that Nader is any easier on the Rp than on the DP. They just have more sense than to call him a traitor. they know they will lose votes to him, but they don<'t want to inflame more folks than necessary.[br />Maybe you need to look for the truth for a change. The DLC is as corrupt as the RNC.

[The Magistrate]

111. You Really Are Not Very Good At This, Are You, Dear?

You know perfectly well Wrecker Nader seeks his votes on the left and not the right; persons on the right will not vote for him, for he is the personification of all they detest about the left. You yourself, doubtless, were not a committed rightist before you saw the sickly greenish light that guides your steps now in matters political; the whole thrust of your critique of the Democratic party reveals this. Wrecker Nader may say he is fishing for votes on the right, and on present evidence may well be sufficiently delusional to im,agine he will get them, but the fact is that he will get no appreciable proportion of the votes that are cast for him from that source. They will come from self-indulgent and self-dramatizing left splinterist zealots, and no other measureable source.

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

76. Actually the future looks much worse than the past thanks to Nader

He's no less of an ideologue than Bush only more reckless. He's harming the people he claims to want to help...Bush couldn't care less about those people.

[Erika]

11. Nader hurts t he GOP as much as he does the democrats,...

Let the idiot speak.

[dolstein]

21. Then why is the GOP working so hard to get Nader on the ballot?

Personally, I think the Republicans, not the snake oil selling Nader apologists, are the best judges of what hurts them politically. The fact that they are working hard to make sure that Nader stays on the ballot in battleground states speaks volumes.

[DeepModem Mom]

42. Bingo! The cabal is counting on Nader and fraud to insure a victory --

if the managed media fails them.

[VegasWolf]

82. Exactly!!! Why else would the GOP push so hard! Duh!

New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional

[Media_Lies_Daily]

58. What a MAJOR bullsh** statement. The GOP is helping Nader...

...by getting him on the ballot in a number of states, and is paying for most of his advertising.

"Nader hurts the GOP as much as he does the democrats???"

Oh, brother...if you really believe that, I have some nice bridges for sale.

[Rick Myers]

14. Earth to Paul Harris

"You are an arse..."

[shawn703]

15. I really don't think Nader will hurt us this year

I think the only people who will go out and vote for Nader this year are only those people who would not go out and vote if he wasn't on the ballot. There's no net gain or loss of votes for Bush or Kerry.

I'm just not too sure there's anybody out there that would go to the polls to vote for Kerry if Nader wasn't on the ballot. I think they'd either not vote at all or cast a protest vote for someone else.

[dolstein]

24. I really think you're kidding yourself

NT

[Green Lantern]

75. Have never

missed a vote in 36 years and wouldn't this time-just wouldn't mark in for Pres.

[AndyTiedye]

91. Still Dangerous - The Black Box Voting Machinez will Vote for Nader

in those areas where a large Booosh vote would seem suspicous.
A 2-way race is harder to steal.

[WhiteTara]

22. just because the repukes got him on the ballot

doesn't mean that anyone will vote for the stooge.

[Art_from_Ark]

36. Maybe people won't "touch the screen" for the stooge

but that doesn't mean that the signal couldn't get "mixed up" on the way to the tallying software.

[Kimber Scott]

23. We're not in a coffin. Hard to nail us.

nt

[Erika]

28. The Green Party Dumped Him Big Time

They've seen the environmental damage done by Bush and they know Bush needs to be stopped.

[Swamp Rat]

29. Nader = PodMan or Insane?

[bluestateguy]

35. If that fucker swings another election to Bush again...

!@#%&* :nuke:

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

39. nader's a good guy

i know him - i used to work for him-he means well. he's just disillusioned with the whole process and has no hope left for the two parties. i, of course, disagree with him and think the democratic can and will be reeofrmed-the process has started

you may disagree with his methods, but trust me, if you knew the guy, the last thing i've ever found him to be is an egotist or a liar

[Voltaire99]

40. Possibly the most brilliant critic of American power alive today...

...and yes, he has abandoned hope for the two-party system.

As a progressive I can hardly blame him, although I wish the Democratic Party were sufficiently reformable so that it could be used as a mechanism for the social and economic justice that Nader eloquently represents. Mind, if an insurgency could shake the party rid of its corporate leadership, we might get somewhere. But we won't get anywhere as long as the ABB choir clumsily demonizes him: alienating the left is one of the dumbest things this party has ever done.

[krkaufman]

44. And I can hardly blame the Democratic Party

It is merely a reflection of the deterioration -- or atrophy -- of the electorate since the late '60s.

The American people are to blame for the political options we currently have.

[saracat]

45. So that gives him the right to destroy this country , and us with it?

I think that is the definition of egotist!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

60. He's taking money from the GOP, allowing the GOP to help him...

...get on the ballot in a number of states, and allowing the GOP to pay for some of his advertising, just as he did during the 2000 election.

IMHO, these are NOT the actions of a person the "means well".

These ARE the actions of a con-man, a liar by trade.

[Green Lantern]

78. So far

as of last week, more Dems had contributed to Nader than RP types. So does that make them corrupt also?

[fudge stripe cookays]

102. Source? n/t

[Green Lantern]

77. thank you

he is a good man, and like most of us who have been his supporters, he feels the corruption of the two major party's leadership has become so corrupted by the money, that the system is beyond redemption and must be rebuild, not repaired.

[AndyTiedye]

92. Senility is a Terrible Thing

[vetwife]

96. Then talk to him..please, its one thing to be disillusioned, it quite

another to bring the end to America because of your apathy of the way things are going. I hate to say this but to me, whatever his excuse, his voters should realize that a man this out of the mainstream is only helping Bush and is truly UNFIT TO COMMAND anything. He is doing exactly what? Hurting the people who had all of the respect in the world for him years ago. Is this how he wants his legacy to be? The man who helped Bush bring down America. If you know him, encourage him to seek mental health treatment and I am serious, that was not meant to be snide but worrisome. I do worry he has issues that will lead us all into a world we don't want to go. He needs help and not at the polls.

[Amigust]

105. Actions define him, not his verbal moralizing ...

and Nader's actions say he is a POS.

[ibegurpard]

46. I don't believe that Bush and Kerry are tied in New Jersey.

Sorry, just flat-out don't believe it.

[booksenkatz]

51. Hmmm, I'm a Dem and I'm not terrified in the least

I'm as concerned about Nader as I am about the stuff on the bottom of my shoe. He's a zero.

[OnionPatch]

54. The future looks much like the past....

Yeah, Ralph and with your help, the next four years can look exactly like the last four.

[goclark]

61. This ain't the same Nader

Nader '00 had a few ounces of energy.

The nation did not perceive him as someone that would help Bush steal the election.
Now the huge majority of Nader supporters,like MM see that he is a scum bag.


In addition, he has not worn his age well.
He looks extremely tired and so do his hollow words.

He needs to quietly step off of the tiny stage he is on and take a nap.

[noahmijo]

62. A. Nader isn't even on as many crucial state ballots B. the majority of

Naderites know what it would mean to vote for Nader this time around.

[Thew]

83. Think A is the most important point...

Although Nader gets approx 2% nationally in polls - he cannot get that in the election; he lacks the ballot access in too many states.

[AndyTiedye]

93. Doesn't Matter. He Has Ballot Access Where it Counts

in most of the swing states.

Being kept of the ballot in California probably doesn't
cramp his style at all.

[CBHagman]

63. Don't speak of coffins yet.

For starters, can we really measure how many people Nader has alienated by his vanity campaigns? Can we as yet assess the work of the swing state volunteers? I know the Democrats have people out and about in the swing states, though I have no idea what sort of work the GOP is doing. I know both major parties are bracing for recount fights.

In addition, I'd advise DUers to look at charts of how congressional make-up by party has shifted over the years. These things can turn on a dime, or so it would seem from the figures. Right now we're talking about a few seats one way or the other, not dramatic shifts.

STAY TUNED.

And Nader is a hypocrite who screws the people he claims to help. A friend of mine has firsthand accounts of that.

[drumwolf]

64. Nader voter in 2000. Kerry voter this year. Not too worried about Ralph.

My gut feeling is that Nader won't be a factor this time around, and if the ground-level view here in San Francisco is any indication, he won't be.

At this same time in 2000 there was a very huge groundswell of support for Nader. This time, I see buttons and stickers for Kerry/Edwards everywhere I look and very little if any support for Nader.

The one person I've met who plans to vote for Nader would not vote for Kerry even if he and Bush were the only two names on the entire ballot. He believes that Kerry is every bit as bad as Bush on foreign policy.

[Cappadonna]

65. Nader's Run is symptom of a systemic issue of activists progs.......

My problem with Nader's run isn't that he'll take votes from Kerry, actually. It’s the fact that Nader and his followers are puritanical ideologues convinced wholeheartedly of their own greatness. The fact that Smirk getting back into office doesn't scare them should send chills up the spine of any sane or rational progressive. The scarier problem would be if these freaks ever came to power.

One of my biggest fears with Nader is not whether or not Bush wins...its the eerie notion of Nader a president. My father thinks it would the bizarre bastard child of hardcore political correctness, force-fed Communist and left-wing Fascism that will define a Nader presidency. Remember that crap ass movie "Demolition Man" with Sly Stallone and Wesley Snipes? Remember the vegan, androgynous wimp world that they future was? There was no meat, rock music or profanity or sex. I’m a vegan and I would cringe at the type of world. This is the kind of whacked out world would be a political wet dream from people like Nader. Talking to a lot of Naderites, there's an eerie dictatorial streak within them. They think just because they may be right, they can shoehorn and ram their ideas down people’s throats. Seeing as many of these guys think Communist Russia wasn't that doesn't surprise.


I asked a fellow Green and ardent Naderite how does Nader expect to pass all of his more whacked out notions (like banning videos?) without the support of Congress. He said without blinking an eye that Ralph could just pass everything as an executive order. Isn't that the kind of tyrannical bullshit that they get all pissed about with Bush? It’s fine for Nader to rule by fiat because "he fights for the people"? Come on guys, lay off the weed!


We agree on one point, if Bush gets elected, no Republican would be able to seek office for next 20-30 years, if the nation survives that long afterward. If Nader, or anyone like him, were to get into the driver’s seat, he'll set our agenda back twice as far.

Even the national Green Parties (they are technically two) told Nader to take a hike. Why? Because Nader basically felt that somehow the GP needed him, He calls us political immature because we as a party had the audacity to nominate an actual Green for president. He didn't notice that Greens are officially the nation's third largest political party and are growing in spite of him.

I'm a Green and will continue to be one. But my biggest pet peeves in politics are the stubbornness and arrogance. Nader's a threat because he would put Bush back into office. But I would argue Ralph Nader would be just as scary, if not scarier, if he were in power.


Peace -
Cappadonna

[fudge stripe cookays]

103. He wants to ban videos?

I gotta hear more about this. The guy's freaking nuts.

FSC

[jackieforthedems]

66. Someone Get A BIG Fly Swatter

That's all Nader is - a pesky fly. Anyone who thinks he could seriously win must have had a lobotomy, and anyone who votes for him is an idiot anyway.

[Cappadonna]

67. My worry isn't the fly.....its the Political West Nile Virus he carries.

Like a I said above, Nader and his followers are a pest. But the bigger problem is what lies ahead.....if these fools ever do gain power. They have already shown that they gut their own mother in the name of political piety. Make no mistake, these guys are as scary as they are misguided.

- Cappa

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chicago Democrat]

73. Nader pisses me off!

[DerekG]

79. Nader asks a good question:Why aren't the Democrats landsliding Bush?

Kerry's running against a goddamn fascist, for cryin' out loud. No matter who wins, my sights are going to be on the DLC come November 3.

[clown]

81. Reciprocate

I've asked this before and never really gotten an answer, but why don't the Democratss do the same thing, push the Libertarian party and the Constitution party to all of the conservatives unhappy with Bush's spending and overseas adventures?

[shell_meister]

88. Exactly!

It's a legal and legitimate tactic. There are many pissed off right wing groups that need to be marginalized by their own message!

[robbedvoter]

99. Cuz the Clowns own the media, polling companies

[JohnKleeb]

86. maybe it will be a landslide

It's not the party's fault that people are stupid and support Bush.

[AndyTiedye]

94. Because the Republicans OWN THE NEWS

and operate as an integral part of the Bush* campaign.
From Rove's talking points to everybody's ears.

The Democrats operate under a media blackout, almost.
Most people never saw or heard Kerry speak until last week's debate.

If we still had a free press, we would not be having this conversation,
because Boosh and Cheney and his gang would have been impeached (or
most likely never selected in the first place).

[Smallberries]

84. Not in Florida!

Three of my best friends are Greens, and they're all voting Kerry this year.

Here in Florida, let me assure you that we're taking this election *very* seriously.

[Seabiscuit]

85. Hey! This isn't 2000!

Nader did make a difference in 2000. In 2004 he's senile and irrelevant dead meat, and won't garner more than a tiny fraction of 1% of the vote, which won't make any difference at all.

[shell_meister]

87. Making Assumptions

The question is: If Ralph Nader was not running, would that 1% to 2% vote for Kerry? When Democrats place all of their energies into keeping Nader off of the ballot -- instead of making an effort to win or even understand that 1% to 2%, it affirms Nader's message.

As long as they follow the rule of law, there is nothing immoral about Republican efforts to add Ralph Nader to the ballots. This tactic pales in comparison to their elimination of legitimate registered voters from the roles.

I would argue that the greatest danger (to a fair election) is the Karl Rove Propaganda Machine. It churns out one piece of garbage after the other. It's design is to draw attention away from legitimate issues, confuse and befuddle, misinform, mislead, and misdirect an easily fooled population.

[stepnw1f]

97. Nadar is Just A Distraction

Giving him any attention at this point is useless and counter-productive. Those who support him will do anything to be a spoiler for Kerry. It's a prime example of fanatiscism.

[robbedvoter]

100. Correction: nail in Democracy's coffin. This is not about DNC,

but about the entrenchment of fascism in this country, the world. WTG, Ralphie!

[bringbackfdr]

104. Screw Nader

He got 22,000 votes in NH last time; he won't come near that this time. Gore lost to Shrub in NH by about 7,000 last time; we'll win by more this time.