NYT: For Many in Missouri, Picking a President Is More a Matter of Values

[DeepModem Mom]

STATE BY STATE
For Many in Missouri, Picking a President Is More a Matter of Values Than Policy
By DIANE CARDWELL

Published: September 19, 2004


ST. CHARLES, Mo. - Tom Ampleman, a blue-collar union member who lives near this suburb just outside St. Louis, says he voted for Bill Clinton twice and then Al Gore, but he is now grappling with deep religious misgivings about the Democratic Party.

"I haven't declared myself a Republican, but if I had to go in there and vote right now I probably would vote for the Republicans," Mr. Ampleman said recently, sitting in his pickup truck at a public park here.

"I'm not happy with the moral issues at all with the Democrats," continued Mr. Ampleman, who works as a welder at an aerospace company. "The Republicans will hurt me in the long run in providing for my family, but it's probably more important to watch out for the unborn and that kind of stuff."

Missouri, almost evenly split between Republicans and Democrats, straddles the Midwest, the Deep South and the Great Plains, and has some of the sensibility of each region. Elections can turn on the interests of labor unions, farmers, city dwellers or suburban parents.

But Mr. Ampleman's internal tug of war, echoed in different ways in interviews with dozens of voters throughout the state, begins to explain why Republicans are increasingly confident they can prevail here this year, even as Democrats say they remain hopeful of winning Missouri's 11 electoral votes....


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/19/politics/campaign/19state.html

[moderatepenguin]

1. Mr. Ampleman certainly has an ample martyr complex...

If he acknowledges that the repugs will screw him over down the road, but wants to vote for them anyway to "protect the unborn," he must consider himself to be a martyr.

Seriously, Ampleman, you're very likely not doing the unborn any favors.

[girl gone mad]

3. No kidding.

How many parents will decide they can only afford to raise a small family because of the Bush economy?

Does Mr. Ampleman give a damn about the children that will remain unborn because of this?

[area51]

48. good point, but

I'm wondering how many people will decide they can't afford to raise children at all because of the Bush economy. And the republinazis need overpopulation in this country to try to keep wages low/jobs scarce.

[saigon68]

72. They could care less

They can always "IMPORT" dark skinned people to "CLEAN THEIR TOILETS"

[theKnave]

78. Personally...

... I think that there's far too much breeding going on anway. There are waaaayyyy to many mouth-breathers running around on this planet. A few less would do us all some good. No offense to any of you mouth-breathers out there. ;-)

P.S. buy some breath mints (this is directed to you mouth-breathers).

deit: clarification

[okieinpain]

69. but it's not only him, it's the females also. I don't understand why

this has to be a big dem item. same thing with gay marriage, hell you can't even get all of the gays to vote on this so why do dems have to carry this load. and just too show that I can give up something, dump affirm action too.

I would rather have a dem in office to appoint supreme court justices, and be without AffirmAction. then to have someone like bush appointing people

[The Zanti Regent]

21. The Screw York Times finds another stooge...

Amazing how this Nazi Party organ "finds" these people....

[iconoclastic cat]

26. I bet that person does not exist.

I now treat all of the US media as fiction and propaganda: all polls, interviews, and editorials are suspect. That conversation was as much a real event as Bush's heart-to-heart with Jeebus.

[MadHound]

33. I live in Missouri, trust me, these people exist.

Sad to say, but the person interviewed is part of an urban mindset that does exist. Even worse, he only scratches the surface of the worst that Missouri has to offer. But thankfully, he doesn't represent the best either. There are many many bright liberal, freedom loving folks in Missouri. Sad to say though, we are getting swamped by bigoted, stupid, fundie neo-cons. We shall see this fall if the majority of people in this state are still bright enough to see the writing on the wall. Let us hope so, for all of our sakes.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. The poster was referring to the time-honored custom of NYT reporters...

...to invent characters that they have supposedly interviewed. They then present these fictional characters as real people to a largely unsuspecting circulation. The purpose is to make one or more political points for their conservative readership.

Yes, undoubtedly certain people do exist in Missouri, as they exist in every state, but my money is on another fabrication by the NY Times.

[Neecy]

41. they certainly do exist

I phone banked last week in Jackson county - a Democratic county, probably one of the more liberal ones in the state - and a very nice woman spent around 3 minutes telling me all of the things she liked about Kerry, then announced, "But I won't vote for him". Same reason as the guy in the article - abortion.

At least she didn't foam about him being a godless Democrat, or just hang up on me when I called. That's what's frustrating - reasonable people who can appreciate the good points in Kerry's platform, who don't demonize him personally, but whose minds close on abortion.

[antigop]

46. here is my response to the those whose minds close on abortion

This is what you need to tell these people.

Fact:
The GOP has had control of the House and Senate since the 2000 elections.

Fact:
7 of the 9 Supreme Court Justices have been appointed by Republican Presidents.

Fact:
Abortion is STILL legal.

What do these people think they are voting for? They have been duped.


Write LTTE's pointing this out.

[tlcandie]

52. Sorry .. facts will not change these peoples' minds....

Their minds are closed off to anything but the bible, their preachers and God.

Unless you can find a way to reach past their mindset then it is true that in the end days even the elect will be fooled.

Their hearts, minds, eyes, ears are not open. The scales have to be removed before they can even begin to hear what is truth. Right now it is poison to them because believing any of it, much less, listening to it puts their soul in jepoardy of going to hell.

It's not reasoning nor truth that will change these people's minds. Prayers to release the chains and energy that keeps them bound is the only method of hoping these people can see the Light that so brightly shines while they stand in the darkness.

[lastliberalintexas]

53. Correction

The repubs have controlled the Senate since the 2002 elections. Hence my argument that they've had almost 2 years.

[antigop]

59. Oops, sorry, typo

You are correct. 2002 elections. I knew that. (I really did.)

It was a typo that I didn't catch.

So sorry.

Yes, they have had 2 years and all they have done is push through the Partial Birth Abortion Act which has now been struck down by three federal courts.

[Drifter]

70. And you forgot ...

that a large majority of Americans are opposed to making abortion illegal.

Cheers
Drifter

[SammyWinstonJack]

58. Reasonable?

How reasonable is it to be only concern with just one issue and apparently not to fully understand the candidates' stand? Reasonable...:eyes: I wish she would just stay home with her reasonableness and not vote. The World would be better off.

[IA_Seth]

75. Unfortunately, I am SURE he does.

I am not trying to rip on any state or anything, but as an Iowan I think I can say that there are PLENTY of those types "sitting in their trucks at a local park" who try (and fail) to justify voting for the war pig.

[tlcandie]

49. The religious institutions of our times have preened people to be

this way! Don't you see it fits with how this is all working? They put the fear into you until you believe you MUST follow and obey all of their rules or you are not good enough to enter heaven.

Martyr complex or not...THIS is exactly why people who are religious (not spiritual) Christians will be voting for this regime come November. As I told my mom a while back, "It doesn't matter what he does or doesn't do, people hear that Jesus is his saviour and that he believes in God and by golly that's it! The brain stops and it needs no further backup or qualifications in order to make a decision!"

Only if you've lived in bible belt, the south or something can you understand the lack of thought needed by a 'religious' Christian to make a political statement.

I say this because I've been there. The hold is strong and it takes a LONG time to remove the chains that hold ones mind, heart, and soul bondage to the doctrine's of man.

[okieinpain]

71. damn straight. I stopped going to church about 2 years ago.

not that I hate church, it just doesn't do anything for me. but some of the calls I've gotten from churh members about me doing the devils work is absolutely hilarious

[Arianrhod]

81. The proof of their blindness

is that they also hate Carter.

These people are not religious, they merely use religion to justify their hatred, bigotry and ignorance.

[ElectroPrincess]

87. Excellent Point Arianrhod :-)

I love Jimmy Carter and must admit to disliking John "No Calico Cats for me" Ashcroft at the visceral (GUT!) level. Perhaps that makes me and DA Missouri folks *even.* <curtsy and exit stage libertarian left>

[Arianrhod]

93. Thanks. :) n/t

[davhill]

2. We have to win back these people

Remind them that during the prosperity of the Clinton years there was actually a huge drop in abortions. Throwing women and medical personal in jail is not the way to stop abortion. Adequate social services and reduced financial pressure on the poor and middle class is. Republicans talk against abortion. Democrats actuallly do something.
Point out that bombing Faluja and Nejaf is killing unborn babies and their mothers as well as other men women and children. The Republican party is the party of death!

[LarryBaker]

5. "Party of death" is going a bit far I think

Unless you are prepared to call the Democratic Party the same thing. Do I have to remind you who got us into WWI? WW2? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Korea? Vietnam? Balkan? The list goes on.

So, which party killed more, do you think?

A reason as good as any to vote for a third party.

[Crunchy Frog]

10. So you're saying

we should have just stayed out of WWII. Even after we were attacked. We should have just sat back and watched while Hitler slaughtered and enslaved the whole of Europe, and Japan did the same to Asia. Then we would have been the "party of life".:eyes:

[LarryBaker]

14. No, I didn't think anyone would be stupid enough to think that,

Which is why I didn't develop it further. All I pointed out was that if were talking deaths (morally right, if there is such a thing, or not) then "the party of death" isn't more applicable on Republicans than on Democrats.

We weren't attacked by Hitler so much as by the japanese by the way, and no, I do not believe it was necessary for Truman to nuke Japan. But I guess since he was a Democrat, he's 100% pure goodness and could do no wrong.

And I note that you don't even touch upon the other events on my list. So, basically, either both parties are the party of death, or they are not. Me, I'm voting for Cobb, if it's safe.

[Crunchy Frog]

18. We were attacked by the Japanese,

who were allies of Germany. We declared war on Japan. Germany then declared war on us.

What were we supposed to do, ignore Germany after it declared war on us? To say nothing about the moral issues of standing by while Hitler slaughtered millions.

And where did I ever say I was exonerating Democrats for the bad things that they've done? I'm plenty critical of the Democrats for many of the things you've listed, though not all of them by any means. I just happen to think it's outrageous to use WWII as an example of Democrats being the "party of death".

Oh, and by the way, why are you here on this board?

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Crunchy Frog]

29. Korea was IMO justified.

It was to counter a blatant act of aggression, instigated to expand the Soviet empire. The big mistake there was invading N. Korea rather than in just repelling their invasion of the South. That brought the Chinese into the picture and created a huge mess.

The Bay of Pigs was, IIRC planned by the previous Republican administration and dumped in Kennedy's lap, much like Somalia was for Clinton.

Vietnam was indefensible, and I would never try to defend it.

I believe that the actions in the Balkans were justified, but I think reasonable people can disagree.

I won't try to defend Clinton's random bombings, and I never have, but at least he didn't actually invade, which is many orders of magnitude worse.

As far as tolerating dissent in my family, you are not my family. From the sound of it you are not even a Democrat, so you are also not a part of my larger Democratic "family". Anyway, my question to you was from genuine curiosity, and was not meant as a paraphrase of "get lost".

This is a board for Democrats and for people who are interested in getting Bush out of office by supporting the Democratic candidate. John Kerry was not the first choice of many on this board, but he is our candidate, and the only viable alternative to four more years of Bush. You've come onto this board attacking the Democratic party and its candidate, and promoting a third party candidate. So my question to you still stands. Why are you here on this board?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

30. Safe?

Oh dear. Hardly. Anything to aid The Chimpenator's re-installation is hardly "safe".

[Andromeda]

79. Then I think you should say "goodby"

to DU because you don't belong here.

This is a form for Democrats and we support John Kerry for president NOT third party candidates.

Go post on a third party message board because you are not going to be welcome here spouting that kind of crap.

[slor]

13. I stand corrected.

Earlier I said that Mr. ampleman made the most recent idiotic statement I had heard in a long time, but you just moved into that slot with blitzkrieg speed. The Democrats did not get us into WW1 or WW2, the hostile actions of the Axis countries did. And while you can argue the horror wrought by the use of the Atomic bomb was morally reprehensible, I am certain that a republican President would have done the same damn thing. Indeed, what evidence do you have that a rethug would have done anything differently. And sure LBJ took us into Vietnam, but Nixon kept it going despite all the evidence that he should not, which is just as wrong as lying to get there. And in more current news, that monkey bush is the guy that got us into this most recent war, and if you think Nader is going to remove him, you are wrong. So if opposition to war is your mission, third parties are out or else bush is in, as is more war, complete with all the idiots that planned the current fiasco. But my guess is that is exactly the scenario that you want anyway.

[LarryBaker]

15. Ok, I get it. Democrats for war=good, Republicans for war=bad.

I applaud John Pilger for telling it like it is:

2004: Choose Your Favorite Pro-War Candidate
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/pilger.php?articleid=2089

Bush or Kerry? Look closely & the danger is the same
http://educationright.tripod.com/id309.htm

The Warlords of America
http://www.lewrockwell.com/pilger/pilger14.html

None of this is discussed in a presidential campaign in which John Kerry strains to out-Bush Bush. The multilateralism or "muscular internationalism" that Kerry offers in contrast to Bush's unilateralism is seen as hopeful by the terminally naive; in truth, it beckons even greater dangers. Having given the American elite its greatest disaster since Vietnam, writes the historian Gabriel Kolko, Bush "is much more likely to continue the destruction of the alliance system that is so crucial to American power. One does not have to believe the worse the better, but we have to consider candidly the foreign policy consequences of a renewal of Bush's mandate . . . As dangerous as it is, Bush's re-election may be a lesser evil." With Nato back in train under President Kerry, and the French and Germans compliant, American ambitions will proceed without the Napoleonic hindrances of the Bush gang.

...

The real debate is neither Bush nor Kerry, but the system they exemplify; it is the decline of true democracy and the rise of the American "national security state" in Britain and other countries claiming to be democracies, in which people are sent to prison and the key thrown away and whose leaders commit capital crimes in faraway places, unhindered, and then, like the ruthless Blair, invite the thug they install to address the Labour Party conference. The real debate is the subjugation of national economies to a system which divides humanity as never before and sustains the deaths, every day, of 24,000 hungry people. The real debate is the subversion of political language and of debate itself and perhaps, in the end, our self-respect.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. Are you still here? Why?

[jwirr]

77. The religious zealots

have not save one single unborn child with their votes. The law has stood since the 70s. BUT the Democrats have saved many babies with their programs that help families afford children, that care for sick children, that investigate child abuse and that help children cope with depressing life threatening feelings. There are many ways that a child can die, only the Democrats look at the situation and answer accordingly.

One reason Missouri has such a strong religious political influence is the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church is located in St. Louis. They don't care about anyone but unborn babies. I know I have just quit going to their political rallies every Sunday.

[Arianrhod]

82. They won't listen to any of it.

They have sold their souls, and they'll vote for the Devil himself if he puts an "(R)" behind his name.

I've used every one of these arguments you mention.

[Arianrhod]

4. So Mr Ampleman apparently feels more responsibility

for other people's unborn fetuses than he does for his own children sitting at his table.

Values, indeed.

[Fovea]

50. And I am sure his children will feel the same way

when Mr. Appleman is out on the streetcorner, selling apples.

[Arianrhod]

62. And for people like that

I have no sympathy whatsoever. They get what they want.

But their votes destroy everyone else's lives.

[slor]

6. Mr. ampleman is a danger to this country...

and his statement is one of the most idiotic admissions I have heard in quite some time.

[Demit]

8. Yes, "the unborn and that kind of stuff" was particularly compelling

I can see Mr. Ampleman has given these matters serious thought.

It's one of the Republicans' great achievements, getting people's focus onto their spiritual lives and away from the misery of their lives here on earth.

[Bozvotros]

22. Agree completely

What the Dems need to do is to ask every anti-abortion repug how they plan to pay for the medical and social costs of all these sacred unwanted fetuses they plan to drag into their world of unfunded social programs and bankrupted state medicaid programs. Many aborted fetuses have medical problems that could cost millions to treat.

Pointing out just how completely hypocritical it is to be "prolife while simultaneously gutting social safety nets for children and families, might shut their yammering sanctimonious pie holes. Someone needs to do a social and financial cost analysis of ending abortion and send it to the RNC for their comments and plans.

Repugs don't want and will never allow abortion to be illegal for just this reason but they can pretend to be for it and that seems to be enough for the faithful sheep.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

31. Salient point:

"Getting people's focus onto their spiritual lives and away from the misery of their lives here on earth."

Just like royalty did to commoners during The Middle Ages and beyond. They used explanations of "God's Will", "Manifest Destiny" and "Divine Right of Royalty" to explain themselves. The King James Version of The Bible was codified with these proofs in mind.

I really think that they want to thin the herd here, raise the mortality rate in this country.

[ikojo]

88. Waiting to live in a mansion in the afterlife always

reminds me of a Utah Phillips song...the refrain goes like this..

You will eat, bye and bye,
In that glorious land above the sky;
Work and pray, live on hay,
You'll get pie in the sky when you die.



THE PREACHER AND THE SLAVE
(TUNE: IN THE SWEET BYE AND BYE) (BY JOE HILL) (1911 EDITION)

Long-haired preachers come out every night,
Try to tell you what's wrong and what's right;
But when asked how `bout something to eat
They will answer with voices so sweet:

(Main Chorus)
You will eat, bye and bye,
In that glorious land above the sky;
Work and pray, live on hay,
You'll get pie in the sky when you die.

And the Starvation Army they play,
And they sing and they clap and they pray
Till they get all your coin on the drum,
Then they tell you when you're on the bum:
(chorus)

If you fight hard for children and wife -
Try to get something good in this life -
You're a sinner and bad man, they tell,
When you die you will sure go to hell.
(chorus)

Workingmen of all countries unite,
Side by side we for freedom will fight;
When the world and its wealth we have gained
To the grafters we'll sing this refrain:

(Last Chorus)
You will eat, bye and bye,
When you've learned how to cook and to fry:
Chop some wood, `twill do you good,
And you'll eat in the sweet bye and bye.

[Kadie]

35. You posted just what I was thinking.

Welcome to DU!

[JoFerret]

7. How did the republicans get to steal the language?

values? How about the values of fairness, decency, justice, truth, hard-work, pensions, health care, education, stewardship of the earth and so on and so on. The dabate has been stolen. The word has been stolen to mean guns, gays and God.

[gottaB]

9. "show me the values"

That should be the campaign theme to win Missouri

[cornermouse]

17. Show me the values.

The churches just got a big wad of money. Mr. Ampelman goes to church on Sunday and the preacher tells them that Bush is a man of God and doing God's work/will. That pretty much sums it up unless he attends one of the evangelistic ones who tend to be much more aggressive. I'm thinking of some of the outside church signs that I saw when Clinton was running for re-election.

[meow2u3]

89. The perfect state to start a "show-me" campaign

Suggestion from fed2dneck to MO DUers: Tell those sanctimonious Rethugs that you're from the Show-me State--Show me you practice the values you preach, or I'll show you what a hypocrite you are!

[Scootman78]

11. Reminds me of the fisherman...

The Daily Show had a piece about a fisherman who has fished with George.

He said that because George Bush "protects my lakes and keeps them loaded with fish, I will definitely vote for him." This was verbatem, but it was what the man said.

If religious/moral belief is more important than your family's well-being, then you have some serious problems with setting priorities. That's my opinion though.

These are the type of voters that the Republican party loves. If they were to write a handbook on how to sway votes, they might want to try this:

"Stupid voters don't care about the 1,000+ dead soldiers, the horrible economy, and corruption. Stupid voters only care about what we tell them is important - family values. Not the family itself though Stay away from mentioning a family's current status, just talk about their core beliefs. The GOP voters are so stupid they'll follow you wherever you lead them."

[DeepModem Mom]

23. So right, Scootman78 -- welcome to DU!

[Crunchy Frog]

12. So all of a sudden, abortion

is a huge issue for this guy, but wasn't when he voted for Clinton twice and for Gore. He was fine with Clinton's zipper problems, but all of a sudden he's "not happy with the moral issues with the Democrats". The party's position on abortion hasn't changed in decades. Either this guy is a phoney who is making it up about having voted for Democrats, or else he's so stupid that he deserves whatever happens to him under a second Bush term.

Maybe this country really does deserve Bush.:grr:

[xchrom]

16. more here than meets the eye -- is it mr ampleman or the nyt

the good gentleman mr amplemann had no problem with voting for pro-choice candidates in presidential elections three times in a row -- now he is faced with voting for a known mass murderer and calling that choice better than democrats based on a moral evaluation?
how did the times find such an ambivalent character, advertise?
either the times or mr amplemann needs to check their own moral reality -- or perhaps both of them do.

[Bosso 63]

20. They are buying a pig in a poke.

Having lived in S. W. Missouri, I don't think that people like Mr. Ampleman are dumb, but they are being sold a bill of goods. They are putting what they think is right ahead of their own interest, this is not a natural tendency of republicans. Some day, they will realize what has happened, and I'm telling you, that hell will have no fury like these people will have towards rove and his ilk. The problem of course is, how long will it take.

[DeepModem Mom]

24. Welcome to DU, Bosso 63 -- and thanks for posting...

from the perspective of one who's lived among Missourians --

[PassingFair]

90. Pig in a Poke my Eye!

We have all inspected the pig. We have all assessed the bill of goods. These people are willfully blind and I, who never reacted with anger am furious with my fellow Americans.

NO SALE!

[RazzleCat]

25. The Real Question, will the Urban cores get out and vote?

I live in Missouri, matter of fact most likely about 20 odd miles from Mr. Idiot. The big question on how Missouri will go is on who votes. The urban areas (St. Louis City, and Kansas City) vs "out state". One last note, St. Charles is the capitol of "white flight" in the St. Louis region, most of the housing is less than 20 years old, and the whole county is something like 98% white, so keep in mind when reading interviews with St. Charles residents, your interviewing persons who left the city/county of St. Louis (crossed the river) to avoid living next to blacks, or new immigrants.

The voting history of Missouri shows that the urban areas vote democratic, and out state goes republican. Our population size should give it to the urban core, but we have a ton of disenfranchising in the urban areas so toss a coin and that's the answer. St. Louis was lost in the Florida mess in 2000, but take my word for it, their was a ton of fraud. Such items as polls closed early, no over site on vote tabulation, court orders to open the polls (after they were closed early ignored). Persons dropped from the rolls, and or election judges saying they can't find them, yet their name was on the roll. Just google the phrase 2000 election + St. Louis. Oh yeah and police not allowing persons to vote, per the election boards instruction.

[DeepModem Mom]

27. Thanks for first-hand info and perspective, RazzleCat -- (nt)

[Neecy]

43. this might encourage you

Rev. Emmanuel Cleaver, the very popular former mayor of Kansas City, is running for a congressional seat this year.

Granted his opponent is a zombie-eyed Republican women who doesn't have a chance, but I think he's really going to drive up the Democratic turnout in Jackson county - and we're going to need that if Kerry is to have any chance at all in Missouri.

[alcuno]

28. I feel like writing to Mr. Ampleman.

"abortion and that kind of stuff." Whatever happened to family first?

[progressivebydesign]

65. I actually wrote a nice letter to one of the people in a NYT article..

someone who said they were voting for Bush now, after being a Democrat all their life. I gave my mail address, my email address, etc... never heard a peep from them. I sent a very, very nice letter to this person. I'm starting to think these people are handpicked by the GOP to be interviewed by some of these reporters at the NYT.

I just wonder why we haven't seen ANY articles about Republicans who are NOT voting for Bush, in the battleground states... and I KNOW they're out there. I sometimes think that the reporters are not sinister, just lazy and unprofessional. They are given an "angle" to pursue by the higher ups, and run with it. Find a voter who is leaning toward BUSH now... that's how it's done. These reporters are not randomly asking voters how they feel, and just writing about it.. they are fulfilling an edict from on high in the corporate tower of journalism. OF COURSE it will serve the republicans! Who do we think are the stockholders of these corporations?

[alcuno]

85. I'll do it.

It was easy enough to find out his address.

[Rich Hunt]

32. whaaa??

What "kind of stuff" is he talking about? That's very telling - what he is really saying is that abortion is part of a broader set of 'moral' issues - probably linked with same sex marriage and other 'depraved' activities. Why do these people think it's perfectly appropriate to impose their 'morals' on others?

In a country with nearly 300 million people, you're never going to convince everyone to adhere to your moral code. As a blue stater, I'd like to be protected from someone else's lousy president. GROW UP.

Christ, they do a bad job of teaching civics in this country. He'd be a lot happier in a theocracy. The U.S. isn't supposed to be one.

[sendero]

34. Just another...

..."do as I say, not as I do" so-called Christian. Nothing to see here, you can find these people in every state.

[NeoConsSuck]

37. Values?

Halliburton? Enron? Ken Lay? Jeff Skilling? Killing innocent Arabs and stealing their oil?

Here's what I think about America's values: I cheer the Iraqi insurgency. I pray they are victorious against America. They are the *only* group right now with the courage to fight the neocons to the death. May they find victory.

Those are my values.

[Kadie]

38. Republicans have values and Democrats don't?

I am sick and tired of this message being pounding to us by the media.

[catzies]

40. "The Republicans will hurt me in the long run..." but he'll vote for them

anyway?!?! :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

[napi21]

42. Did the Dems suddenly change their stance on abortion since

Clinton & Gore??? How all of a sudden is Kerry different?

I understand abortion is a very serious issue for a lot of people, but I didn't think they suddenly changed their opinion after years of being on one side of that issue. I suspect it's something else. Maybe the Gay Marriage issue, and the guy doesn't want to anounce his prejudice.

[lastliberalintexas]

44. Someone needs to ask these people

why abortion is STILL legal. The repubs have controlled the Presidency, the House, the Senate and the Supreme Court for 2 years now, and yet abortion is STILL LEGAL.

I wonder why- could it be that the repubs need it for a wedge issue for people like this? So that they can get people to vote against the interests of their own families? :think:

[expatriot]

45. The best line from Kerry's acceptance speech...

"It's time that people who talk about family values start valuing families."

The DNC needs to make a good ad for these rural battleground states that pretty much says, "vote your interests, they are trying to con you."

[MODemocrat]

47. That's why this Missourian will absolutely not vote for BUSH

George W. Bush is a liar and a cheat, and a war criminal. That's why I'll be voting for John Kerry. He's the man with values and spine.:hi: from Missouri :dem:

[Ravy]

51. I would bet a dollar he pulls the lever for Kerry....

people mostly vote for their own well being in the end.

If pressed by a reporter, of course you are going try to look as good as you can. Making a statement about morality is a logical thing for some to do, when pressed.

He obviously isn't Pro-Kerry, but he doesn't like Bush. The safest thing to say when pinned down is that you will vote your morals, but in the end, in the privacy of a polling booth... things change.

It will come down to economic issues facing HIM, or what he considers moral issues facing others. In the privacy of a polling booth, I think he may reconsider his position.

[arwalden]

54. Republicans Have NO VALUES Other Than HATE and GREED

and BIGOTRY

[MidwestMomma]

55. The media is just setting up the Missouri populace to vote Bush

Missouri prides itself on ALWAYS voting for the the winner in presidential elections. If the media constantly tells Missouri voters that Bush is going to win, then they will vote for Bush to keep their record of ALWAYS voting for the winner going.

This may sound crazy but I saw it happen with the Democratic primaries. The more the media said Kerry was going to be the nominee, the more people in Missouri wanted to vote for him.

My question is this.....how horrible would an anti-abortion candidate have to be before the anti-abortion crowd would not vote for them? Would they vote for Hitler, knowing he was going to take the actions of Hilter, as long as Hitler told them he was anti-abortion? Sadly, I think they would.

[smirkymonkey]

56. So Mr. Ampleman would place his vague morality above

the well being of his existing family? I find this unconscionable.

Most freeper idiots play the morality card, ignorant of the knowledge that the GOP is destroying them in other ways. Mr. Ampleman is AWARE of the fact that the GOP will destroy the lives of he and his family, yet STILL opts for the supposed "moral" high-ground.

Unbelievable.

[Emillereid]

57. This is the kind of information that makes me want to leave

this country -- Americans have simply become too stupid to live with!

This kind of stuff makes me realize that the democratic party desperately needs real leadership -- the kind that stand up for progressive values and explain their correctness to the Mr. Amplemans in our country. This is not a time to pander by saying things like " I am for a woman's right to choose, but personally I think abortion is wrong." That kind of argument just reinforces the republican position and makes the democrats look mealy mouthed and disingenuous. Leaders have to lead and teach in a forward looking manner -- not say whatever makes the latest focus group happy.

[progressivebydesign]

66. This is the kind of information that makes me want to HEAVE

:puke:

I'm tired of seeing these articles portraying Kerry as somehow morally inferior, when that is the furthest thing from the truth. Bush is not Godly, but he's marketed that way. Makes you ill, doesn't it.

[Logansquare]

60. Don't worry Ampleman kids: You'll get pie in the sky when you die

What's wrong with Kansas (or Missouri in this case). The religious right has fattened up the electorate just in time for the slaughter. He doesn't need no stinkin' health care or working wages, he's going to heaven!

The Preacher and the Slave
Joe Hill c.1905

Long-haired preachers come out every night
To tell you what's wrong and what's right
But when asked how about something to eat
They will answer in voices so sweet:

You will eat, bye and bye
In that glorious land above the sky
Work and pray, live on hay
You'll get pie in the sky when you die.
That's a lie

[progressivebydesign]

64. Hey.. if his children get pregnant while they're teenagers

.. then Daddy plans to support all of those "unborn and stuff", cuz he's alll about moral values, which is nice, since he's choosing the man that is screwing up his own children's lives now!

[msongs]

61. republican christian values include...............

killing tens of thousands of civilian men women and children. of course those dead people are not white or christian or american.

as barbara bush said, why bother our pretty little minds with things like dead bodies from American launched wars.

Msongs
Riverside CA

[progressivebydesign]

63. WHY do we keep getting stories like these???

I KNOW the media can easily speak with people who voted for Bush and will NEVER do that again, for MORAL reasons.. like being responsible for the DEATH of over 1,000 of our troops in a fucked up war. But instead, they LOOOVE to feature these heartland stories of people who think the Democrats don't care about "the unborn and stuff". I honestly don't believe a lot of these people who claim they voted for the Democrats before, and now want Bush... I wonder how they find them for the stories...

[NSXBill]

67. Because it is true

I lived in MO for 7 years. My inlaws live there, in Gephart's district in St. Louis. They've ALWAYS voted for Democrats but lately have been hinting that they will vote Shrub.

[Roy]

73. I live in Gephardts district also.....

and I know a lot of new people who don't usually care about or get incolved in politics, but will be at the polls just to oust this rightwing idiot.

New voter registration is through the roof, so, no doubt there will be a redoubling of effort to disenfranchise. But there is also, based on lesson learned in 2000, a redoubling of effort to fight against it.

No matter what the polls say, don't count Missouri out, just yet.

[Sleepless In NY]

68. Truman: "The Buck Stops Here"..... Bush: "None of its my fault"

Truman was from Missouri, can you imagine what he would think of bush? bush looks like a big crybaby, not too mention incompetent, when you compare him to Truman. Thought it was moral to take responsibility for your actions.

[TrogL]

74. The only way to change these people's minds

is to prove the Bush isn't a "man from God". Apparently they've forgiven him for all his sins in the past since he "found Jesus" so bringing those up aren't going to help. That may be one of the reasons why is past military activites (or lack of them) aren't getting any mileage with this crowd.

When was the last time Dubya darkened the doorway of a church?

[dave123williams]

76. Ah, VALUES! Like, um, HONESTY? Honesty is a Value, right?

[Gore1FL]

80. I am a Missourian and I vote on morals too

That is why I always vote straight Democratic tickets.

[yellowcanine]

83. How about the morality of taking food from children to fund tax cuts

for the wealthy, Mr. Ampleman? Morality indeed.

[Zerex71]

84. Such choices...

Hmm, vote for someone who will *directly affect your life now and down the road*, or vote for someone who proclaims to "protect the unborn", which is an entity that for all practical purposes is not a human being and doesn't exist. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. People need to stop voting mythology and start voting for their best interests. "Gee, ma and pa don't have medicine, but I'm damn glad a zygote is 'protected', whatever the heck that means!" Rubes.

[saigon68]

91. I am speechless

At the reasoning Of the witless sheep, Mr Ampleman.

[ikojo]

86. I live in Missouri and KNOW Kerry shares more

of my values than the greedmeister party.

How a UNION member can even think of supporting the man who spent the last two years doing all he can to take away overtime pay is quite beyond my comprehension.

St Charles, MO is OVERWHELMINGLY white and Christian (Protestant and Catholic...very few Jews, although there is ONE Reform congregation, Bnai Torah). Many Boeing employees live in St Charles so of course it skews puke because of the military/industrial connection.

Hey New York Times come to University City and talk to people on Delmar and see what kind of reaction you get.

[eriffle]

92. For Conservatives Pro-Life ends at birth

eom

[Malikshah]

94. Can we put a stop the the Heartland crap?

I'm sick to death of the idea that the midwest has some monopoly on morality or values.

That's complete bunk.

The heartland mono as well is complete crap.

If you live in the US you are a US citizen-- no one group has a better claim to morality etc.

For those of you who might think this comes from someone who is tied to one locale in the US--

I'm a military brat-- lived in 15 different places around the country growing up-- met and dealt with folks from all over-- I'm not the expert--but know enough to know that headlines like Missouri focuses on values is crap!

*end of rant*

[mainer]

95. And we're supposed to CARE what happens to these people?

I'm sorry, but I'm so fed up with these "Kansas-values" people that I just don't care anymore if they lose their jobs and sink into poverty. Those retro red states have taken welfare from the metro blue states long enough. Time to cut the umbilical cord and let Alabama go it alone.

Is anyone else suffering from compassion fatigue for these people?