US neo-cons: Kremlin is ‘morally’ to blame for the school massacre

[nolabels]

US neo-cons: Kremlin is ‘morally’ to blame for the school massacre


By Neil Mackay


WHY would a group of leading American neo-conservatives, dedicated to fighting Islamic terror, have climbed into bed with Chechen rebels linked to al-Qaeda? The American Committee for Peace in Chechnya (ACPC), which includes Pentagon supremo Richard Perle, says the conflict between Russia and Chechnya is about Chechen nationalism, not terrorism.

The ACPC savaged Russia for the atrocities its forces have committed in the Caucuses, said President Vladimir Putin was “ridiculous”, claimed Russia was more “morally” to blame for the bloodshed than Chechen separatists and played down links between al-Qaeda and the “Chechen resistance”.

The ACPC’s support for the Chechen cause seems bizarre, as many of its members are among the most outspoken US policymakers who have made it clear that Islamist terror must be wiped out. But the organisation has tried to broker peace talks between Russia and Chechen separatists.

The ACPC includes many leaders of the neo-conservative think-tank, Project for the New American Century (PNAC), which advocates American domination of the world.

ACPC members who are also in the pro-Israeli PNAC include Elliott Abrams, head of Middle East affairs at the National Security Council; Elliot Cohen of the Pentagon’s Defence Policy Board; Frank Gaffney, president of the conservative Centre for Security Policy; Robert Kagan and William Kristol of The Weekly Standard, the house journal of Washington neo-cons, and former CIA director James Woolsey. Former Reagan defence secretary Caspar Weinberger is also in the ACPC.
(snip)
http://www.sundayherald.com/44741

[bemildred]

1. Oil?

You don't suppose all that oil could be influencing their judgement?

It is interesting that we have the terrorism vs nationalism two-sided
coin explicitly depicted here.

[nolabels]

4. A lot of the devices seem the same

It seems that this kind of game has already played out in Latin America. The Arab world seems to be escaping the learning curve. I don't know the any Arab or Muslim language but can guess they are pulling pages right out of the book from there.

Transfer of information (especially in todays instantaneous world) exceeds all other technology, some of these dunderhead imperialist never seem to get it.

[acmavm]

6. Hence the reason for Putin's rather hostile and blatant warning for the

United States to mind it's own businiess.

Richard Perle needs to be put in a cell someplace, either padded or barred, and the key needs to be thown away. Elliot Abrams, the discredited hack, needs to crawl away in disgrace and shame for all the harm he's done over the years.

The people that bush* has drug along with him into Washington do not have any regard for the safety of our country. They just have some really crazy idea that they are meant to rule the world. This is a very serious and valid issue that needs to be made plain and clear to the American people. I don't suppose that a true supporter of the bush* regime would be able to grasp the fact that these are dangerous people, but there are many who would understand. I've talked to a lot of people who don't even know what the Plan for a New American Century is. It's about time they did.

[nolabels]

8. Sometimes it's hard to imagine how uninformed the average US citizen......

is on some of these subjects. Lots of time you can talk to them about some it and they will be totally in the dark. It only makes me wonder why Multi-national corporations are not spending even more money on mass-media mind screwing

You've been indoctrinated into a Psychological Civil War
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=606496

[Lizzie Borden]

22. and they can vote.

I find that particularly frightening.

[nolabels]

29. Only by the grace of what ever do we find ourselves in position

Sometimes the world seems so wacky that I wonder how it figures out how to spin. Get a load of some these quotes

"In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant." — Charles de Gaulle.

"A conservative is a man who believes that nothing should be done for the first time." — Alfred E. Wiggam.

"Traditionally, most of Australia's imports come from overseas." — Former Australian cabinet minister Keppel Enderbery.

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing — after they've tried everything else." — Winston Churchill.
(snip)
http://www.gdargaud.net/Humor/QuotesMisc.html

To be nonsensical and true even to the point of comical listening to any politician and not putting their actions ahead of their words, folly to be sure

[krkaufman]

15. Exactly. I see the neo-cons as perfectly consistent.

*OIL* is the unifying objective.

I'm so tired of hearing that the Iraq war wasn't about the oil. Even Seymour Hersch said on Thursday (in a CSPAN-televised broadcast) that it wasn't; that the Iraq war was a misguided attempt to bring Democracy to the region. Bullshit!

If it weren't about the oil, why is the neo-con campaign for "democracy" so tightly focused on the Middle East?

It's about the oil, and the political power oil provides. Just read their freaking policy paper: Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century

[nolabels]

31. They also seem to fit in that level of maturity

It is the level of denial of a six or seven year old playing games with each other. One says "Did" the other says "Did not", one says "You did too" the other says "Did not" and at nausea it goes on and on.

Of course some that would like to figure why things like this go on, engage in such practices themselves

Reconciling the Mental and the Behavioral: An Evaluation of Behaviorism

Alissa D. Eischens
Northwestern University

This paper examines Skinner's theory of radical behaviorism. The examination describes the concepts of classical conditioning and operant conditioning as well as evaluates Skinner's (1984) "Selection by Consequences." The theory of radical behaviorism is then evaluated for its greatness. Despite criticisms, the theory is shown to have merit in some respects. However, the theory is shown to have fundamental flaws that inhibit its greatness, such as the use of animal research, the "black box" concept of the mind, and the denial of thought and mental processes.

The concept of conditioning is well-established in psychological theory and practice. From Pavlov's research, the world became cognizant of classical conditioning. Through his study of the salivation habits of dogs, the concepts of stimuli and responses have been applied to psychological study. Unconditioned stimuli elicit unconditioned responses; for example, a dog salivates when presented with food. Pavlov then determined that stimuli could be conditioned to elicit conditioned responses. In the case of his dogs, he paired a bell with the presentation of food, and after time the bell itself produced salivation. Finally, higher-order conditioning is possible. This type of conditioning occurs when a conditioned stimulus is able to cause responses from other neutral stimuli by being associated with them. For example, pairing a ball with a bell can cause a dog to salivate in the presence of a ball. In humans, higher-order conditioning can be quite complex; symbols such as words can be capable of evoking emotional responses (Mischel, 1993).

Operant Conditioning
Harvard psychologist B. F. Skinner proposed his own theory of conditioning. His concept, operant conditioning, is at the heart of his highly influential and controversial theory of behaviorism. Behaviorism studies behavior as the basic unit of understanding organisms, including humans. The theory observes behavior and seeks to determine the conditions that affect a given behavior. Essentially, in personality theory, according to behaviorists a person's behavior determines his or her personality.
(snip)
http://www.personalityresearch.org/papers/eischens.html

This information if very good but the thing that I find comical is the argument with it's scholarly veneer of "I am correct ,blah ,blah ,blah" but only brushes around the edges about reconciling a compromise for a more comprehensive and possibly better conclusion.

[Renew Deal]

17. That's probably what it is.

It has to do with access to oil pipelines. The US wants friendly governments in those parts.

[slojim240]

2. They are right. But it's about oil.

follow the money.

[nolabels]

5. For one side it's about money, but the other side.............

Seems to want something a lot more, and that would be their own independent country, much like Iraq once had.

[Deja Q]

3. Oil, or worsening the 'bring them on' attitude?

The neo-cons prove to be more dangerous every day. They can't handle legitimate terrorism and then they go out of their way to make more terrorists by misdealing with them, along with slapping the faces of soverign nations.

Not good.

[nolabels]

7. Yea but they did not invent terrorism, they are merely trying to harness i

Just like the stages in child development when they learn not play with matches because they might get burned. It just seems like we watching these fool Neo-Cons go through the same type of process only on larger and more deadly scale.



http://www.sannet.gov/police/prevention/crimeprev/index.shtml

[Toots]

9. I have to agree with him a bit

I am sure he is creaming himself thinking how neat it would be to fight Russia and how much money the War Profiteering Bush* Cabal could make but he is correct that the Chechnens have been fighting for their liberation for a long time and have no other means of maintaining the fight as they have no army and there is no real connection to Al Qaeda nor for their cause. The only cause is the liberation of their country from Russian occupation. I hope we aren't so stupid and greedy that we get involved in this mess and end up at war with Russia as well as the rest of the world.

[wellst0nev0ter]

10. Just Think On September 11, "We Are All Americans Now"

was the international headline. And when terror attacks happen somewhere else, all we offer is scorn and complacency.

And they wonder why we are alienated.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

11. >>Kremlin is ‘morally’ to blame for the school massacre<<

Who is morally to blame for the 30,000 plus Iraqi civilians who have perished in the last year?

Who is to blame for the cluster bombs we let upon the village of Hilla?

Who is to blame for blowing the shit out of the Iraqi civilian infrastructure during the first Gulf War?

Who is to blame for the depleted uranium induced birth defects loosed upon Iraqi unborn children?

Who is to blame for supporting Saddam Hussein when it suited them??

Can you see the tension building between the U.S. and Russia and friends?? Do you know where this administration is leading us?? Yes.. to Armageddon, glory, rapture, what a sick bunch of idealistic extremist nincompoops.

Not a singe Christian church was harrassed during Bath Party rule... and look at what you have going on now... yes... who supported him indeed....



http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
>>Initially, Iraq advanced far into Iranian territory, but was driven back within months. By mid-1982, Iraq was on the defensive against Iranian human-wave attacks. The U.S., having decided that an Iranian victory would not serve its interests, began supporting Iraq: measures already underway to upgrade U.S.-Iraq relations were accelerated, high-level officials exchanged visits, and in February 1982 the State Department removed Iraq from its list of states supporting international terrorism. (It had been included several years earlier because of ties with several Palestinian nationalist groups, not Islamicists sharing the worldview of al-Qaeda. Activism by Iraq's main Shiite Islamicist opposition group, al-Dawa, was a major factor precipitating the war -- stirred by Iran's Islamic revolution, its endeavors included the attempted assassination of Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz.)<<

[leesa]

12. Really. My first guess would have been American neocons.

Who benefits from this tragedy?? American neocons? Right Guliani?

[ScrewyRabbit]

13. The contradiction only makes sense when you view it

through the neo-con filter. Their world view (or 'Weltanshauung', to use the highly apt term favored by the Nazis) is that everything can be measured by whether it's good for the US. That's the only principle that matters. So naturally what is bad for Russia is good for the United States.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

16. what is bad for Russia is good for the United States.

Doesn't sound like a moral majority trait... so they really shouldn't claim to be....

Ahhhh whatever happened to the good old cold war days.... life was simpler then... you could tell who was who and what was what.... them days are gone...


http://www.pbs.org/newshour/shields&gigot/may98/so_5-15.html
>>There's nothing like a common foe. And I don't know if it was Eduard Shevardnadze, the foreign minister of the late Soviet Union or Mikhail Gorbachev who said we're going to do a terrible thing to you; we're going to deprive you of an enemy, our vision.<<

[oldlady]

14. is Palestinian action about nationalism or terrorism?

"the conflict between Russia and Chechnya is about Chechen nationalism, not terrorism."

we never hear this logic in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, do we?

[Ms. Clio]

19. No, we never do hear that

And we never will.

Just like Native Americans were "savages" and the Euroamerican settlers taking their lands were "civilized."

[Ms. Clio]

18. DUers are alway so far ahead of the curve on these things

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2311067#2311555

[smirkymonkey]

20. ACPC=PNAC=Greedy Oil Sucking Bastards

It's about control of the Caucasus, pipelines, and oil & gas reserves. The US would greatly benefit from Chechen independence with Russia as it would make it easier to control the region.

"The Spoils of Oil"
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Chechnya.asp
"A major oil pipeline carries oil from fields in Baku on the Caspian Sea and Chechnya toward the Ukraine. Grozny has a major oil refinery along this pipeline. For Russia it is important that the oil pipelines and routes they take so oil can be sold to the western markets also meet their needs. However, there are various pipelines in discussion that does not involve Russia.

Major Western oil companies and the American government managed to keep out Iran from the picture. In addition, by also getting oil pipelines routed through Georgia, Russian influence was reduced. As a result, Russia want to do what they can to control the spoils, while the West do the same, leaving Chechnya in the middle being fought for by the two.

There are accusations that external (Western) forces have been used to promote and help destabilize the region, to promote succession to ensure a split from Russia. This would allow them to benefit from a smaller, weaker nation (if Chechnya is successful) that will also make it easier for the West to ensure the resources they want can be further controlled."

More:

Two, Three, Many Iraqs? Next: Chechnya
http://www.tompaine.com/archives/the_dreyfuss_report.php

Tug of War
http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/cau/cau_200012_61_03_eng.txt

[struggle4progress]

21. Members

Morton Abramowitz
Elliott Abrams
Kenneth Adelman
Bulent Ali-Reza
Richard V. Allen
Audrey L. Alstadt
Vadim Altskan
Zeyno Baran
Antonio L. Betancourt
John Bolsteins
John Brademas
Zbigniew Brzezinski
Richard Burt
John Calabrese
Eric Chenoweth
Walter C. Clemens
Eliot Cohen
Nicholas Daniloff
Ruth Daniloff
Midge Decter
James S. Denton
Larry Diamond
Thomas R. Donahue
Robert Dujarric
John Dunlop
Charles Fairbanks
Sandra Feldman
Geraldine A. Ferraro
Catherine A. Fitzpatrick
Erwin Friedlander
Frank Gaffney
Charles Gati
Richard Gere
Douglas Ginsburg
Paul Goble
Marshall I. Goldman
Orlando Gutierrez
Barbara Haig
Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
Robert P. Hanrahan
Paul B. Henze
Eleanor Herman
Peter J. Hickman
Norman Hill
Irving Louis Horowitz
Glen E. Howard
Bruce P. Jackson
Robert Kagan
Max M. Kampelman
Thomas Kean
Mati Koiva
Guler Koknar
Harry Kopp
William Kristol
Janis Kukainis
Saulius V. Kuprys
Kenneth D. S. Lapatin
Michael A. Ledeen
Robert J. Lieber
Seymour M. Lipset
Robert McFarlane
Mihajlo Mijajlov
Bronislaw Misztal
Joshua Muravchik
Julia Nanay
Johanna Nichols
Jan Nowak
William Odom
P.J. O'Rourke
J. Dimitry Panitza
Richard Perle
Richard Pipes
Norman Podhoretz
Moishe Pripstein
Arch Puddington
Peter Reddaway
Peter R. Rosenblatt
David Saperstein
Gary Schmitt
William Schneider
Alexey Semyonov
Andrew M. Sessler
Philip Siegelman
Sophia Sluzar
Stephen J. Solarz
Helmut Sonnenfeldt
Gregory H. Stanton
Leonard R. Sussman
Barry Tharaud
Jack Thomas Tomarchio
Sinan Utku
George Weigel
Caspar Weinberger
Curtin Winsor
R. James Woolsey
Tatiana Yankelevich

http://www.peaceinchechnya.org/about_members.htm


Some of these jerks have been apologists for anti-Russian terrorists for decades ...

[Kimber Scott]

23. Every one of these PNACers need to be taken out of circulation

and put in prison. The world will be much safer without them.

[Career Prole]

28. I'm ready to see neo-conservatism added to some hate crime

legislation.
Meanwhile, we're infected with them.

Bill Schneider..."impartial" CNN political analyst (and PNAC'er)

[moondust]

24. Freedom Fighters do not slaughter children. eom

[lapfog_1]

25. Only WE can fight terrorists!

1) These Chechen guys are not terrorists, but "Freedom fighters"
left over from the cold war. Many Neocons have a hard time shedding
their "Old World Order" concecpts... Soviets bad, mujahedeen GOOD!
Russians bad, chechens GOOD. Took a while to unlearn the first
association, the second will take some time as well.

2) Second, PNAC world domination folk do NOT want a Russian led
coalition war against some group of terrorists, especially if it
should be a successful war (in contrast to the US efforts).

3) PNAC does NOT want a resurgence of Russian military strength.
Especially in the region in question. Chechnya is too close to
various "stan" countries and oil pipelines:

http://www.calguard.ca.gov/ia/Chechnya/Checnhya%20-%20oil%20pipelines.htm

[PROGRESSIVE1]

26. Gee, all of that oil can't be what is influencing PNAC....

to promote Chechen independence, now is it?

:eyes:

Neo-Cons defend the killing of children in the name of Money!!!

:grr:

[agincourt]

27. I'd roll this out,

The neocons defended the Sudan rapists when Clinton bombed them. They were pro-taliban before 9-11. They blamed the 9-11 attacks on homosexuals. Now they defend schoolchildren murderers. People need to wake up to the neo-cons support of terrorism.

[Guaranteed]

30. Yup, that's funny as hell.

It's not the terrorists fault, it's the KREMLIN'S fault.

Fuck YOU, Cheney.

[nolabels]

33. I do love this place, the irony is almost annoying

I posted this article expecting to get to get just a couple people to look at it, a reply or two one could debate with but it went way beyond that (thanks for thinking about it everyone). I also tought the admins would move it to editorials or to some other place also(guess I got lucky)

The "Fuck YOU, Cheney" does seem quite appropriate. I was blown away just a couple of days ago by to learn how interwoven that SOB was in 9/11


9-11 has shown the face of the New World Order


Three elements of a criminal investigation are motivation, means, and opportunity. Evidence is gathered to fill in the details in each of these categories. Anomalies, contradictions, and gaps in that evidence suggest that a probable scenario for 9-11 is a false flag operation in which the perpetrator tries to place blame for a criminal act on an innocent individual or group.

A False Flag Operation? The discovery of a connection between Mohammed Atta and Abu Nidal in Iraq is interesting more for who it implicates as perpetrator of a false flag operation. Since Abu Nidal has been implicated as an asset of the Israeli Mossad, this becomes part of the evidence pointing the finger of guilt at Israel as the perpetrator of 9-11 because of the attempt to mask their involvement with false information that points toward their Arab enemies, especially Saddam Hussein
(snip)
Hijackers on board unproven: As evidence that Arabs were involved in 9-11, the Nidal-Atta connection is not very convincing since there is as yet no incontrovertible evidence that any Arab hijackers were on board or piloted the planes to their target. There is, on the other hand significant evidence to show that

* no human could have piloted Flights 175 and 77 in accordance with the Official Conspiracy Theory, (In that bank into the South Tower at 575 mph, the controls of a Boeing 767 would become almost impossible for a human pilot to handle because of built in Flight Control Computer program.)
* no way for Mohammed Atta or any Arab to trick the USAF to stand down for an hour while they flew around the Northeast, directly over USAF bases without a notice or interception
* no way for jet fuel to burn any hotter than 1110° F.-1740° F. and only when steel is at a temperature of 2000° F-2550° F can it be deformed by heavy force.
* steel angle connectors at the perimeter would not be heated any more than 1000° F. because the heat would be conducted away by the steel façade. This is the temperature of a cook stove on medium.
* no way for a carbon nose cone of a Boeing 757 to slam through a foot thick reinforced wall and not leave debris outside the exit point at the Pentagon,
* no way for cellphones to function at that altitude and speed, (So who made those calls?)
* no way for a building to fall at the rate of free fall and still encounter masses on the way down.
* a Zionist had won a $3.2 billion lease for WTC 1 and 2 in July and had insured it for $3.55 billion should it be attacked by terrorists. He claimed two terrorist attacks for $7.1 billion but had to settle for less.
* Vice President Cheney was in charge of at least 6 training exercises on 9-11, three of which involved real planes simulating hijackings
* and so on
(snip)
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:c4R-bK2QItIJ:www.the7thfire.com/9-11/911_has_shown_the_face_of_NWO.htm+Cheney+%2B+training+exercise+%2B+9+/+11&hl=en

[Bread and Circus]

32. It's interesting that some PNAC'ers and DU'ers actually agree

on something.

Weird.