U.S. Chaplains Lend Spiritual Aid in Iraq

[Rose Siding]

snip>
Through a maze of tan-colored, Arabic-inscribed tombs, U.S. troops have scrambled onto mausoleums to open fire, taken refuge in underground crypts and, with bombs falling and bullets flying, wondered whether they might die here.

"Many of them had a great deal of reservation about going into a cemetery," said Capt. Warren Haggray, 48-year-old Baptist Army chaplain living in Fort Hood, Texas. "One of the things that I teach my soldiers from the Bible is that there's a time for war and there's a time for peace, and there are times that you just have to get out there and fight."
...
One Marine deployed near the cemetery, following orders from his superiors, sprayed gunfire on a vehicle that failed to stop at a checkpoint after a series of warning shots, Shaughnessy said.

When the bullet-ridden car rolled to a halt, the Marine found two men and one woman, apparently civilians, dead or on the verge of death, inside.

"It bothered him immensely," Shaughnessy said. "I told him the intention is important. You had warned them that they were in a combatant zone, your intent was not to take any civilian life, and morally, that's significant."

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-iraq-spiritual-combat,0,1620558.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

[northstar]

1. There are no 'winners' in this story......only something BIG to learn/know

:cry:

[Sugarbleus]

2. This is just too sad to bear.........

No winners indeed.

DAMN YOU BUSH/CHENEY/RUMSFELD ET AL....TO HELL for this mess.:grr:

[Djinn]

3. I'd love to know which bit of the Bible

this chaplain thinks justifies the US military to be anywhere near Iraq?

[JohnyCanuck]

4. Must be the part where Jesus says,

"Verily, verily when thou needest oil to maintain thine mega, multinational corporations and the materialistic, consumer driven lifestyle they bestowest upon the land and thou does not have enough oil of thine own, by all means, start wars, kill, maim and destroy and do whatever else thou feelest necessary to get thine grubby hands on what so ever of thy neighbor's oil thou desirest."

[No Passaran]

5. Let me share a part of my experience in Iraq

Imagine seeing a whole family of 5 die in a burning car (parents and three children age 5, 4, and about six months).

Then imagine a whole convoy rolling and not even firing at apparent Republican Guard running around. It was just too much. It was shocking and in those 30 seconds everything stopped. We just drove thru kind of looking thru Republican Guard and not even shooting. First time I cried was when I returned back to the scene couple of days later and saw the spots where the children died. As someone who has two young ones, it was just too much.

For the record it wasn't our vehicle that ran over that family's car. To this day I wonder what they were doing out there on the HWY in the middle of a firefight.

[Rose Siding]

6. Welcome home

I can't imagine it...And I sincerely wish that you didn't have to.

But, having a funky imagination, I wonder about how confused my own family might be if a superior force arrived to take over my neighborhood. I can imagine getting mixed instructions or no instructions or trying desperately to collect all of the family before leaving the area. I can imagine frantically trying to out-guess what was happening around us and deciding that we surely didn't appear threatening and making a tragically wrong decision about where to go.

Whatever the circumstance, that family probably had a far more rational reason for being where they were than Bush had for sending you there. I'm so sorry you have that memory and hope to God you find peace with it.

[JSJ]

7. they were in their own country, so...

...it was and still remains none of your business what they were doing out there.

[No Passaran]

8. sure

y'all made it my business for allowing them to send us over there

you're probably the kind that watches all the action and protests on tv and then has the **** to write your little comments here.

get off your ass and do something usefull. my wife led anti-war protests (with my support and encouragment) even with me in Kuwait waiting on orders to go to war with my full support. she lost a lot of so called "friends" over it but gained a lot more.

[JSJ]

9. still not your business...

...what an Iraqi is doing in his own country. Get it?

[unslinkychild1]

10. OMFG

LAY OFF BRO, okay? This is something he will have to deal with, most likely ALONE.

You know what you remind me of? You remind me of some comedy skit I heard a long time ago, something to the tune of a black guy expecting to be lauded because he DIDN'T beat his wife. The punchline being something like you're not SUPPOSED to beat your wife.

Well, here goes both barrels, friend--You are SUPPOSED to be able to believe your own fucking president!!!!!!! THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH!!!! I know we are mostly jaded here, but damn it, that is the CRUX. And, how do you know the the guy joined up to kill AY-RABS? Maybe he joined up during the Clinton administration when things were sane. Maybe he got sucked into Iraq via stop-loss or whatever. You don't KNOW. Maybe he believed the hype on the news--most amerikkkans apparently DID. How can you lay the blame for this COLOSSAL FUCK UP at HIS feet? Blame shrubbie or the media or the pnac or the idiots in this country that were so revved up to kick Ay-rab ass that they lost their collective souls. Don't blame this soldier.

We NEED to know what's going on over there, but if you treat the vets like shit, most of them will SHUT THE FUCK UP, and we won't know--instead we'll just get regurgitated horseshit the media spews up, and think we're "informed".

Go spit on the administration, and leave Bro to conquer his own demons in ways that he deems fit, like TALKING about it without YOUR condemnation. I know, I'm a newbie and all, but sir/madame JSJ, you just seriously pissed me off.

And, PRAY TELL, after he's shipped over there, thinking he's fighting for OUR fucking freedoms, helping the Iraqis to OBTAIN "freedom", just WHAT THE FUCK WAS HE SUPPOSED TO DO? Run off to Turkey or something?

You are SOOOOOOO way out of line with your comments.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JSJ]

11. if you're a good citizen, you don't need to listen to lying...

...presidents or veterans or schoolboys in an internet forum. You simply do the research and proceed. Had he done the research, he'd have gotten a better idea of the criminality behind the last 40 killing actions the US has committed in countries not our own. He then could have extrapolated what the situation was going to be in the country he'd most likely be shipped off to. Save your wounded bird act on his behalf for the funny papers.

[No Passaran]

13. Boy you just hate US don't you?

"You simply do the research and proceed. Had he done the research, he'd have gotten a better idea of the criminality behind the last 40 killing actions the US has committed in countries not our own."

I approved what US did in Bosnia and Kosovo. I don't remember us killing any innocent civilians in Bosnia and Kosovo.

[RivetJoint]

14. Uhh, we did kill innocent civilians

during the Kosovo war. Don't you remember the scenes of us bombing downtown Belgrade? The Chinese Embassy? The bridge as the train was crossing over it?

[No Passaran]

12. He doesn't have a clue

He doesn't know any better. I don't wanna waste my time discussing anything with someone who has no clue what he's talking about.

To add to some of the things you said:

Yes, I did join during Clinton Administration. I joined because it's what I always wanted to do.
As far as "how do you know the the guy joined up to kill AY-RABS?"
I'm a Muslim myself. I'm not of Arab origin (I'm white), but if you know anything about Islam, you know that we all consider ourselves brothers and sisters. There are no prejudices in Islam where whites don't like blacks and/or Arabs and vice versa.

It seems to me that the guy just hates US military for some reason. He probably thinks it's cool and alright to do it because he's a Democrat not even knowing how many Democrats are in the military right now. This is why war veterans are going over to the other side. When I'm around Republicans they will try and do everything in their power to make me feel loved and this is what I get every time when I'm around some far-left Democrats and it's wrong. That's why Veterans think Democrats don't give a **** about them.

JSJ, you just don't get it + I see you joined the fight kind of late (Your profile May 19th 2004)

I've been here since the beginning (2001)

[PhuLoi]

15. Hunker down and hang tough BRO, you will get shit thrown on

you from time to time by those who were not there and don't have a clue. I've lived with it since 1970. The first ten years are the worst. It was helpful for me to think of the U.S. as Disneyland and the war zone as reality. That way when Goofy says something stunningly insensitive you throw it off.

[unslinkychild1]

17. DON'T WORRY FRIEND

AND don't you DARE leave us. You are loved here. You are right--sadly, he just doesn't get it.

I am a vet too, tho' I never served in combat. I realize you really DON'T have many options--it's the one job you literally CAN'T QUIT. I joined up at 21, jaded yes, but I really had NO clue about all the shit this country has been up to. I mean, you really gotta do some heavy research to find out this crap, and there was no internet at that time to find shit out. At that point in time, I was kinda busy trying to... like.... survive and feed my family. Sure I read, sure I tried to keep informed. Time mag, Newsweek, the newspapers, etc. We all know now what kinda shit I was reading, but who'da thunk it THEN?

as for joining the fight kinda late..... so did I, so what? The issue is, the guy's sadly mistaken if he thinks YOU are responsible for this.

I was against the war before there WAS a war in Iraq, just as I am against the war in Iran that's soon to be if our neocon friends have their way. I generally don't have a lot of sympathy toward the military--after all, they signed on the dotted line. But I don't hear you whining, Bro, and your tale breaks my heart. For some asswipe to come along and lay this shit on your already overburdened shoulders just takes the cake.

[No Passaran]

21. Thanks

People like you make me come back here every day where I'm supossed to be.

[unslinkychild1]

23. Damned right, Bro

This is where you ARE supposed to be. Mayhap YOU can be our next John Kerry. We NEED to hear your side. Everybody is so busy pretending to know what's going on, and what's going through other people's minds that when the truth comes out and grabs them by the throat, they can't stand that it doesn't fit in with their narrow scope of how things "should" be.

And, sir/madame BRO, I am profoundly HONORED that my simple posts could in any way, shape, or form affect your outlook on life or Dems in general.

'Nuff said, pray continue BRO, and rest assured that I will come out BLAZING against stupid shit like that EVERY TIME I SEE IT. In the abstract, such posts might have purpose, but against your very personal account, there is NO DEFENSE of that shit.

[A_Possum]

20. No, he doesn't get it, and it's embarrassing to see

It makes me angry too.

I believe that Democrats like Kerry DO care far more about the military than Republicans do. I think what we're seeing now is that much of the Republican "love" is politically motivated, and they will turn on vets when it suits their convenience.

But the self-righteous kind of bunk from some people I've seen here is just that--bunk. And we all get tarred with that.

[wellstone_democrat]

24. Good to see you back safe and sound

or, as safe and sound as you can be after that. Welcome home.
I'm impressed by both you and your wife. I hope that the homecoming is joyous.

[starroute]

16. Soldiers have moral qualms -- chaplains tell them no biggie

Isn't there something essentially, profoundly, gut-wrenchingly ***wrong*** in that equation?

Aren't clerics supposed to be the ones who raise moral questions, hold the behavior of others to a higher standard, and generally strive to represent the best in human nature?

When did they turn into sophists with a glib rationalization of any sort of debased action? When did they become less moral than the soldiers who look to them for comfort?

This is an outrage and should not be allowed to slip by without notice.

[karlrschneider]

18. You've eloquently scripted my own thoughts on this matter.

There's some sort of absurd inverted logic to have chaplains encouraging others to prosecute war.

[gratuitous]

19. When did the clergy turn into sophists?

As soon as they donned a uniform and starting taking a paycheck from the government.

This is a very difficult question for me to sort through in some ways. I think that the folks in the military need spiritual counseling and guidance at so many levels and in so many ways. On the other hand, as an anabaptist, I can't imagine being in a situation lending spiritual support to armed persons whose stated mission is to kill other persons. I suppose if the clergy and chaplains were wholly independent of the military, that might be a way to go. Of course, being wholly independent, and taking the Bible and its teachings seriously, they'd have a very hard time endorsing armed battle as a conflict resolution technique.

As I say, it's a very difficult question for me.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. The idea of military chaplains encouraging

soldiers to go in there and kill is deeply disturbing. I can see an ethically justifiable role for chaplains in helping soldiers deal with the stress of combat and possible guilt feelings, but to tell them that accidentally shooting three civilians to death is no big deal, that's troubling.

Note that if someone in civilian life accidentally shot up three random people, he'd be prosecuted under the law.

In other words, if a chaplain hears a soldier's confession about committing involuntary manslaughter and offers absolution with the understanding that this is NOT okay, but that we all sin, and that the soldier in question should do his best not to let this happen again, I have no problem with that. When a chaplain tells someone that he has nothing to feel guilty about, then he is not following Christ.

It's all about the ethical and moral framework.