Flying saucers in New Mexico? Governor (Bill Richardson) rekindles Roswell

[Khephra]

Ten years after the U.S. Air Force closed its books on the claim that a UFO crashed in Roswell, N.M., in 1947, a top Democratic Party figure wants to reopen the investigation into the cosmic legend.

Despite denials by federal officials, many UFO buffs cherish the notion that in early summer of 1947, a flying saucer crashed in rural Roswell, scattering alien bodies and saucer debris across the terrain.

Now Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico, who chaired the recent Democratic convention in Boston, says in his foreword to a new book that "the mystery surrounding this crash has never been adequately explained -- not by independent investigators, and not by the U.S. government. ... There are as many theories as there are official explanations.

"Clearly, it would help everyone if the U.S. government disclosed everything it knows," says Richardson, who served as Energy secretary under President Bill Clinton. "The American people can handle the truth -- no matter how bizarre or mundane. ... With full disclosure and our best scientific investigation, we should be able to find out what happened on that fateful day in July 1947."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/08/16/MNGAK88OQQ1.DTL

[Bhaisahab]

1. yeah right. like THAT's gonna happen!

roswell, kennedy, 911.. the list grows of things america should tell the world but doesn't.

[indigobusiness]

2. America won't even tell itself when it's full of shit.

That is the worst flaw of America...the refusal to come clean.

Contrition and humility are dead in the good ol' USA.

[James T. Kirk]

3. Hokum! Bunk! Nonsense! Mumbo-jumbo!

The passage appears in a paperback titled "The Roswell Dig Diaries," published in collaboration with TV's SciFi Channel by Pocket Books, a division of Simon & Schuster. The "dig" of the title refers to an archaeological dig at the supposed crash site.

Shame on Richardson for engaging in this sort of deceptive behavior just to boost interest in his state.

I recommend that everyone read "Watch the Skies" by Curtis Peebles for a demolition of the Roswell myth.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

4. If you don't mind, this is an open forum. If you don't like what's....

...being posted, simply don't respond.

Unlike some who post at DU, there are quite a few folks here with open minds.

[truthisfreedom]

5. i have an open mind, and i still appreciate a good debate. remember, the

difference between us and the freepers is that we allow people to think and say what they want, and freeper mentality only allows for groupthink, a la "sign your oath of allegience to bush before you can hear your president speak."

[Stuckinthebush]

8. Heh, heh...

It's an open forum....so be quiet!!!

:D

I'm sorry, that just tickled my funny bone this morning.

[yardwork]

14. LOL! I had the same thought - so since we have open minds

we're not supposed to post differing opinions? Not allowed to reference books that disagree with the original post? It's an open forum, so shut up and listen! And don't disagree! LOL!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

37. Well, I guess you folks put me in my place, right?....

So now I should shut up, right?

You folks have an interesting perspective, don't you?

[TryingToWarnYou]

41. It's the hypocrisy....

Dont you see the irony in your very own statements?

Pity.

[Realityhack]

45. Your open mind

seems to be having trouble dealing with people who differ with you.

I always thought that was a closed mind...

This guy would be on the top 10 list if he was republican.

RH

[James T. Kirk]

76. My mind is plenty open.

I've read a lot on flying saucer stuff and in my younger days and I've made up my mind. We have not seen any compelling evidence of contact with extraterrestrials yet. If I see something new and compelling, I'd be willing to reexamine my views.

[James T. Kirk]

74. O.K. From now on I'll only post for things I agree with.

I have an opinion on this stuff and I wanted to put in my two cents. I recommended a book that I read a few years ago that I thought folks might enjoy from learn from.

Lighten up, MediaLies.

[Carni]

12. "Shame on him?"

Why, what's the problem?

A lot of people both skeptics and UFO enthusiasts find the Roswell mystery intriguing.

What's it to you?

[James T. Kirk]

73. Richardson is being deceptive.

He's playing up the notion that that the U.S. government is lying to the American people from Truman to today in order to boost tourism. I expect that sort of thing from Sci-Fi Channel, but I think that is irresponsible behavior for a government official.

By the way, I think the Roswell story and the whole UFO scene is fascinating and really cool. It's a collective science fiction story that American continually writes and rewrites.

[HawkerHurricane]

6. We want Roswell investigated until we get the right answer

The right answer being an alien spacecraft and government cover up.

Any other answer is proof of the cover up.

Anyone who backs any other answer is either a dupe or part of the cover up.

[truth2power]

17. No, but some people would like answers that sound reasonable.

Every time a govt. official opens their yap about this to explain it, they just muddy the waters with what sounds like an even bigger lie.

IIRC, a few years ago there was a big brouhaha over this and the govt. said (re: the weather balloon theory) that they in fact did send up balloons for some purpose or other and threw four ft. tall dummies overboard to test, what? Hmmm...why 4' tall? Average height of a human, these days, is closer to 6'. But the claims from those at Roswell were always that the "aliens" were about 4' tall. It's this kind of thing that just makes you wonder.

" There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet. I,v.

edit> crappy typo.

[HawkerHurricane]

27. A collection of events connected by location

In 1997, Project Safegaurd was declassified. It was a silly idea, spying on the Soviet Union using balloons and listening devices. The 1947 Roswell 'incident' was part of Project Safegaurd (according to the people involved in the project). The 4' bodies were part of a different project some 5-10 years later.

Lots of government testing/experimenting in that part of New Mexico. Trinity, White Sands, other bases were in that area. Wouldn't surprise me if the cover up was trying to hide waste/fraud/abuse and/or stupid ideas.

[daleo]

31. I thought it was Project Mogul

Using balloons to test for high altitude shock waves, which would indicate a nuclear explosion (test) in the U.S.S.R. Given the technology of the day that hardly seems silly. After all, there were no spy satellites or really high altitude aircraft available at the time.

Not that I necessarily believe the cover story of Project Mogul explains the Roswell reported facts. Just that Mogul doesn't seem like a bad idea, other than that.

If the claims that have been reported are true (I am only thinking of the relatively un-extreme ones, such as the peculiar characteristics of the debris), then I don't think Mogul provides a satisfying explanation.

[HawkerHurricane]

32. Wouldn't surprise me if I got the wrong project name.

I'm shooting from memory, which is the second thing to go as you age.

Big problem I have with most conspiracy theories: They require the government to be hypercompetent (keeping this mostly secret) idiots (letting these leaks through). Of course, I have my own favorites... JFK, MLK, RFK... all assassinated by people with CIA links.
And those I hate with a passion...
FDR Knew...

[daleo]

35. It is true that conspiracy theories are often unlikely

However, a few have worked pretty well. For example, the secret of building nuclear weaponry has been kept under wraps quite well for nearly 70 years now.

I will admit I am a little partial to conspiracy theories and may let my intellectual guard down at times. I think it is partially a desire to go against received wisdom. Probably most of us have a predisposition one way or the other that is founded on less than perfectly rational grounds.

[HawkerHurricane]

38. I had to giggle...

"the secret of building nuclear weaponry has been kept under wraps quite well for nearly 70 years now."

After the leaks that allowed the Russians to build there own bomb within a few years of the U.S. effort...

[daleo]

43. Mistakes were made... n/t

n/t

[Eloriel]

63. Not only that

but the kind of weather balloons the govt said it used in 1947 were not invented until later (at least one year if not longer ... memory fades).

Something else. When the govt released its "final report" on Roswell (called the Blue Book or something similar??) it was seen across UFO buff groups and plenty of more "rational" onlookers as so completely full of hokum and bunk and pure silliness that UFO buffs almost universally figured that the govt must be trying to let the general population in on the secret, but do it in a way that wasn't terribly obvious, less overtly than an outright "Yeah, it was a UFO."

I have two stories to tell about UFOs (obviously, I don't think the concept is fantasy or delusion). One is from my first husband whose first career was as an Army infantry officer. He believes he had an "encounter" with a UFO (and lost some time in the process) while driving late evening on a fairly isolated country road in southern Alambama.

The second is from an uncle of his (a fundy Christian now living in very conservative part of TX). When my son was visiting said uncle a few years back, the uncle, who also spent a number of years in the Air Force back during that time period (late 1940s) flying daily between that NM air base and a CA base (Edwards?), told my son that he and his co-pilots saw NUMEROUS UFOs, just about every day. Uncle X., who is a pretty no-nonsense sorta guy, was fairly nonchalant about relating the whole thing (tho he doesn't talk about it with just everyone, obviously).

I think this news re Bill Richardson is a hoot. I'd LOVE to see the govt come clean on this issue. For a change.

[Dover]

7. Sure to please the Art Bell crowd......which I'm told is substantial.

I think everyone would like to see a full disclosure and are prepared for the truth...whatever it might be.

I know a few people who have seen this......and they are very respectable folks. Changed their view on things substantially (one WAS a devout fundamentalist type).

[IndianaGreen]

13. John Podesta, who worked for Clinton, wants to open the UFO books

The issue is government secrecy! It seems that some of the UFO claims were actually promoted by the government in order to hide some of its most secret programs. These are programs that have little, if any, Congressional oversight (I wouldn't call someone like Biden and Harman as oversight, they are sheep).

Even the CIA has a UFO search website for FOIA:

http://www.foia.cia.gov/search.asp?pageNumber=1&freqReqRecord=ufo.txt

[THUNDER HANDS]

9. they'd never admit aliens existed even if they did

That would kinda, make the whole 'worship god and be civil' notion kinda antiquated if we found out we were all nothing more than some Venusian's science fair project.

[Zynx]

10. I honestly don't believe in UFOs or intelligent life anywhere in the Unive

rse so I reject this notion that a spaceship crash landed in New Mexico ever.

[IndianaGreen]

15. But the US does have Black Programs that cost a lot of money

and that it wants the public that pays for them from knowing what they are. Security is oftentimes used as cover up for waste, fraud, and wrongdoing.

Do a search on the lawsuit that was filed against the US Government by workers that were exposed to toxic substances while working at the "non-existing" Area 51 complex.

[Dover]

16. ..yeah all those $300 toilet seats and $100 screw drivers

the government bills for is going 'somewhere'.

[gulfcoastliberal]

18. One place is Project Echelon

The NSA's little illegal corporate and civilian espionage tool. It's ridiculous.

BTW, Roswell was real. UFOs exist but the CIA disinformation campaigns convinced many people otherwise.

[Zynx]

25. I have no doubt that is true. In fact, if it isn't true, I would pay every

one on this forum $10.

[kayell]

30. Just have to reply to this so I can be in line for my $10.

[RebelOne]

21. How can you not believe that there is intelligent life

anywhere in the universe? There are billions of stars with probably billions of planets out there. Can you not believe that some harbor intelligent life? We are definitely not alone.

[Zynx]

26. Where is there some proof of this?

[TheWraith]

36. Where is there proof that the moon isn't going to fall on the Earth?

After all, you only have some scientific theory that says that this is the way it has to be, and the moon can't fall on the Earth.

There's an old formula that basically says, no matter how pessimistic your assumptions, that there must be other intelligent life in the universe. Number of stars in the universe, divided by percentage of stars with planets, divided by percentage of planets capable of supporting life, divided by percentage of habitable planets on which life arises, divided by the percentage of life-bearing planets on which intelligent life arises. That sounds like a lot of division, but since the number of stars in the universe is, literally, astronomical, it works out that there reasonably must be other intelligent life.

[Eloriel]

64. One of the things I wonder about

is why we think "life" from elsewhere in the universe has to be carbon-based. Or even, for that matter, visible to us.

[IndianaGreen]

67. The Moon is actually going to escape the Earth's gravitational field

The Moon is moving away about an inch a year in its orbit. Eventually it will break free from the Earth's gravity.

[TryingToWarnYou]

42. Its called probability....

It's the incredible arrogance of man to think that we are the only ones in the universe capable of intelligent thought or interstellar travel.

If you do some research on the probability of the existence of extraterestrial life, you might be surprised.

[Realityhack]

46. Wha???

We are capable of intersteller travel? When did that happen?

RH

[TryingToWarnYou]

50. Doh! I meant space travel like to the moon and exploring our solar system

We cant be the only ones out there that are doing this.

[Zynx]

68. Why not? Even if there is other life, who says they are as advanced?

[TryingToWarnYou]

78. They may not be...

but I suspect they are at least as intelligent as we seem to be (which seems to be a bar set rather low when you look at people like Chimpy ) LOL

[Zynx]

70. There might be some bacteria out there, I see no evidence that there is

intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.

[truth2power]

58. Some would dispute that there's intelligent life

here on earth. Nevertheless, given the size of the universe, I don't know how there could not be intelligent life out there somewhere. Because of the vast distances we'll probably never know, unless some more advanced beings have figured out a way to get here via wormholes or something.

Some say they might have already done that.

To repeat myself:

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet. I,v.

[Eloriel]

66. I love that Shakespeare quote

And have used it often myself in other discussions.

[shraby]

28. Sorry, but I've seen a ufo

at my mother's house. It's way out in the country (1 neighbor within a mile from them), and one night my spouse and kids (4) were there visiting. My mom's 4 kids, my 4 kids and my brother's 2 kids all came in to get the binoculars to see the plane that was close to the house. We looked out the patio door and a "plane" was just hanging in the air about the level of the apple trees by the house, about 50-100 feet away from the house. It stayed there for probably 5 minutes or so. There was no noise from it, it had inside lights on. I didn't get a real upclose look cause my husband hogged the binoculars. He couldn't figure out what it was. Then it took off over the apple trees and went east till we couldn't see it anymore. We reported it to the county sheriff but never heard anything more.

[Zynx]

71. Unless there is a nightvision picture of it, I'm not going to say you saw

a UFO. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy UFO stories.

[Minstrel Boy]

11. The National Securty State will never disclose this, and the media

will never permit UFOs to come in from the fringe.

Americans are permitted to believe anything, but to know nothing.

From Richard Dolan: "Understanding UFOs and the Media:
Puncturing a Myth"

Regarding the belief in UFO disclosure through the media, my point is this: when you look at the obvious "management and above" media outlets, you find nothing of a serious nature relating to UFOs. This is because management classes historically have relatively narrow ranges of acceptable beliefs. The first requisite of a successful ruling elite is that it share important foundational assumptions about its society and interests.

If you are born into the American Management Class, for instance, certain assumptions become second-nature, like believing in the corporate American style of capitalism as the best solution to humanity’s problems, or in the inherent goodness of American intentions around the world. Members of this class must share its belief structure, else they become marginalized from real power. As far as UFOs are concerned, all you have to do is study the management-oriented media to understand that believing in the existence of unexplained, highly advanced technology traversing the skies and oceans of this world is simply not acceptable. Not if you are a member of the management class.

To say the least, this is an idea that could be unsettling to the stability of those who rule. How to admit that UFOs are real after almost 60 years of incessant denial, without compromising the very political system upon which you’ve relied to keep things moving smoothly and profitably? Especially if (speaking hypothetically, here) certain of your members reap incredible profits from ground-floor investments in technologies that were adapted from sources that aren’t supposed to exist?

On the other hand, from the perspective of power, it doesn’t really matter what the bottom 80 or even 90 percent think. If they want to believe in aliens, or bigfoot, or conspiracy notions pertaining to the Kennedy assassination (another verboten topic for our management class), then by all means they can. Better yet, turn all that stuff into cheesy entertainment, keeping the rabble happily distracted while at the same time you disable these topics from entering the realm of "serious" discussion.
http://keyholepublishing.com/Understanding_UFOs_and_the_Media.htm

An outstanding book right here, and a dispassionate analysis of the official evidence and cover-up:

[IndianaGreen]

19. John Podesta's Disclosure Project

The Disclosure Project

PROJECT DESCRIPTION

A CALL ON U.S. CONGRESS FOR HEARINGS & LEGISLATION

• To hold open, secrecy-free hearings on the UFO/Extraterrestrial presence on and around Earth.

• To hold open hearings on advanced energy and propulsion systems that, when publicly released, will provide solutions to global environmental challenges.

• To enact legislation which will ban all space-based weapons.

• To enact comprehensive legislation to research, develop and explore space peacefully and cooperatively with all cultures on Earth and in space.

The recorded testimony of scores of military, government and other witnesses to Unidentified Flying Objects and Extraterrestrial events and projects from around the world establishes the existence of a UFO/Extraterrestrial presence on and around Earth. This recorded testimony consists of dozens of first-hand, often top-secret witnesses to UFO and Extraterrestrial events, internal UFO-related government projects and covert activities, space-based weapons programs, Extraterrestrial Intelligence, and covert, reverse-engineered energy and propulsion system projects. The technologies that are of an Extraterrestrial origin, when publicly released within a planned transition period, will provide solutions to global environmental and security challenges.

These numerous recorded witnesses constitute only a small portion of a vast pool of identified present or former military, intelligence, corporate, aviator, flight control, law enforcement officers, scientists and other witnesses, who will come forward when subpoenaed to testify at Congressional hearings. Without a grant of immunity releasing them from their security oaths, many such unimpeachable witnesses fear to speak out.

The legislation will ban space-based weapons and will help to transform the terrestrial war industry into a world cooperative military (without space weapons), civil, and commercial space industry. This will provide unprecedented benefits and opportunities to all on Earth and in space.

http://www.disclosureproject.org/

[Minstrel Boy]

20. Two-hour video of the Disclosure video press conference

at the National Press Club here, free to download:

http://www.netro.ca/disclosure/npccmenu.htm

Eyewitness testimony of former government employees.

[Minstrel Boy]

22. Jimmy Carter asked CIA Director Bush to brief him on UFOs, and Bush

refused.



Marcia Smith stated that Carter had approached Bush and stated, "I want to have the information that we have on UFOs and extraterrestrial intelligence. I want to know about this as President."

George Bush, according to Smith said, "no...that he wasn’t going to give this to him...that this was information that existed on a need to know basis only. Simple curiosity on the part of the President wasn’t adequate."

This Carter-Bush UFO question, referred to by Smith, was probably asked during the first 45 minutes of a multi hour briefing on November 19, 1976. This is the only time that Bush and Carter met while Carter was President-elect. Bush was replaced as DCI, once Carter became President, so there was never a meeting between the two after Carter entered the White House.

The 45 minute segment of the briefing given to the President-elect, was described by the CIA as a briefing on certain "exotic weapons and very closely held items relating to sources and methods."
http://www.presidentialufo.com/newpage11.htm

More here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1956796

[HawkerHurricane]

24. That sounds kind of silly.

Sorry, it might be true and all, but...

The President of the United States asks the head of the CIA (a appointed position answerable to the President) and the CIA head says "None of your business, you don't need to know."

The proper answer to that would be, "Send in your deputy, don't go near your desk, you'll get your last check next week."

Anyone appointed by the/a President can be fired by the President.

[Minstrel Boy]

29. "Anyone appointed by the President can be fired by the President"

If you read the piece, you'll see it was President-Elect Carter, asking CIA Director Bush. Who, you'll remember, was replaced by President Carter.

[HawkerHurricane]

33. Ah, my mistake.

So Carter promptly asked the replacement who told him, right?

[Minstrel Boy]

34. It's there in the link I posted above n/t

[HawkerHurricane]

40. It looks like Carter never asked.

I checked the link. If Carter ever asked Bush's replacement, it's not there (or hard to find).

[Minstrel Boy]

49. From the link:

" If he (Carter) was going to do this he would have to follow a different procedure," stated Sheehan, "that was going to involve all the different branches of government in authorizing this information, because they were afraid that President Carter was going to somehow publicly reveal this. Bush told him that he was going have to go to the Science and Technology Committee of the House of Representatives, in the legislative branch, and have them ask the Congressional Research Service to issue a request to have certain documents declassified so that this process could go on.

"They were," said Sheehan, "trying to stall this thing. That was going to take a long time. . .the NSA, the CIA. . .all these groups were going to hold back documents. So the President much chagrined, decided that rather than having a major confrontation with Mr. Bush, (he) would follow this process. He contacted the science and Technology Committee of the House of Representatives. They in turn contacted the Library of Congress Research Service, and they undertook two major investigations.

...

"The first report on extraterrestrial intelligence," said Sheehan, "stated the Congressional Research Service of the official United States Congressional Library, in its official report to the President, through the House of Representatives Science and Technology Committee, concludes that there are from two to six highly intelligent, highly technologically developed civilizations in our own galaxy over and above our own."

"In the second report they had drawings of different shapes of UFOs that have been sighted," continued Sheehan. "They didn’t site any particular cases, but they said that they believed there was a significant number of instances where the official United States Air Force investigations were unable to discount the possibility that one or more of these vehicles was actually from one of these extraterrestrial civilizations. They put this together, and sent it over to the President. I ended up seeing a copy of it."

[HawkerHurricane]

51. So lets see if I have this straight...

President Elect Carter asks CIA director Bush for info on UFO's. Bush says no, you don't have clearance. Carter is sworn in as President, and then goes through some rigamorole to get the information that he could ask the CIA director he just appointed to replace Bush.

Why?

Now, while going through this rigamorole, people in the Pentagon are uncooprative, and even threatening. So, since this is done on order from the President, why doesn't the President tell this Pentagon prick "hey, give me this info or send in your deputy and your resignation."

Besides which, I thought all Presidents were briefed on Majestic-12 and was told all this anyway.

[Minstrel Boy]

52. "Besides which, I thought all Presidents

were briefed on Majestic-12 and was told all this anyway."

If you truly thought so, then you would be even more gullible than I suspect you take me for.

[HawkerHurricane]

54. The question(s) remain...

Why can't the President of the United States get a political appointee head of the CIA or a Military Officer to give him or his surrogates a straight answer?

I mean, I might buy it if they outright lied and said "Sorry sir, we have nothing on the subject"; instead they gave him the runaround. I can only come to the conclusion that a. Carter is a wimp or b. the events described did not happen as described.

[truth2power]

60. Hawker?

I wonder what your take is on the "foo fighters" that were seen by various WWII pilots.

These seemed, if I remember, to have been UFO type objects that behaved very unlike any aircraft then in existence. I've never read of any reasonable explanation for these events.

[HawkerHurricane]

72. The descriptions I read...

were objects, ball like and glowing, pacing aircraft. Never photographed, only at night. So, call it/them unidentified.

Which merely is saying "I don't know what they were". Doesn't mean I think they were extraterrestrials, demons, angels, or gremlins.

[expatriot]

23. it's just a stunt to increase tourism to southern New Mexico

eom

[James T. Kirk]

75. Word.

It's a dumb stunt. And Richardson should have no part of it.

[Tommy_Douglas]

39. It's weird...

If it was some kind of military experiemental aircraft even if it was wasteful you'd think an administration would say as much. Its been over 50 years I doubt any technology from then would still be significant and any waste or corruption isn't going to be laid at the feet of politicians today...

[Blue Gardener]

44. Extra-terrestrial technology would be significant

I still think there's something fishy about the government explanation.

[Minstrel Boy]

53. "I doubt any technology from then would still be significant"

Right. As I type, my son's wearing his "My Dad Went to Zeta Reticuli and All I Got Was this Lousy T-Shirt." ;)

[Realityhack]

47. Even if you beleive...

in other intelegent life in the univers never mind galaxy. Why would you imagine that the US government could posibly keep that hidden???

RH

[chieftain]

48. If Bush Can

tell people in Michigan that the economy is improving , I would have no problem with Governor Richardson saying that he firmly believes in flying saucers . The Governor is more likely to be correct .

[HawkerHurricane]

55. Or at least...

not as likely to be lying.

[chieftain]

59. AMEN

[Short Strand]

57. Intelligent Life in Roswell ?

I sometimes wonder if that is a missioner . I have lived in Roswell and it was rethug and fundie hell although showing some improvement this election cycle . l have seen some documents that were released under The Freedom of Information Act that are in possession
Of the UFO and Research center here in Roswell . They are very heavily redacted perhaps 80 % leading me to believe that something came down in the desert I have no idea what but the truth is still not being told .
Then again we did have a great UFO festival this July 4th weekend. Concerts by the Drifters, the Platters and the Temptations followed the next night by Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard .
Great music.
First post so be gentle

[onefreespiritedchick]

61. Welcome to DU, Short Strand!!!

:)

[3 Cents and Change]

56. Been to Roswell lately?

That town is a dump and gravy trains off the alien bull shit to the extreme. This is the most obvious tourism stunt I've seen by a politician in a long while.

[nolabels]

62. Fwhewe...........that's a relief,

for a minute I thought the Governor had really gone off the deep end, thanks for pointing that out 3 Cents and Change :tinfoilhat:

[daleo]

69. In a capitalist society, what could validate a phenomenon more

Than people making money off of it. Do you not have faith in the invisible hand?

[pinniped]

65. Is it common practice to place "dummies" inside black body bags?

[Swamp Rat]

77. It's all true and the alien lizards are taking over

Don't vote for Bush! He's an alien lizard!