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Iraq On a Knife Edge- (Rebels Control Basra!)-Independent UK

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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 03:26 PM
Original message
Iraq On a Knife Edge- (Rebels Control Basra!)-Independent UK
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=549831
(Iraq On a Knife Edge)



10 August 2004


The new Iraq was on a knife-edge last night as violence and political instability confronted the regime of Iyad Allawi, the interim Prime Minister.

In Basra, a British soldier was killed and several others were wounded. Army Land Rovers were set on fire in clashes with militia loyal to the Shia cleric Muqtada Sadr, leaving the militia in control of the city's main road junctions.

The world oil price climbed to a new high of $44.98 a barrel ­ closing later at $44.80 ­ as oil facilities were targeted by the same militia and Iraq stopped pumping oil in its strategic southern oil fields.

In the Shia holy city of Najaf there were fierce clashes for the fifth consecutive day between US soldiers and Sadr insurgents who have vowed to fight to the death. The fighting has claimed 360 lives since Thursday, according to the US military.

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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. Here we go
Edited on Tue Aug-10-04 03:44 PM by JoFerret
""The official added that the governor of Najaf, Adnan al-Zurufi, who met Mr Allawi on Sunday, had "given us approval to conduct operations in and around the shrine. We have elected at this point not to conduct operations there, although we are prepared to do so at a moment's notice."

He said that about 2,000 US Marines, supported by US Calvary units and 1,800 Iraqi National Guards (ING) and police were now massed at the city. The official said US and Iraqi forces had been moving into the cemetery to clear an area but "as they pull back the Mehdi militia will come back into the cemetery and continue to launch attacks. The primary objective right now is to take additional ground from these insurgents."
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BadGimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. FUBAR
its all fubar people
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. They must hate our freedom ?
I don't believe we ever WERE in controll in iraq. Now even the illusion is fading.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. Depends.
Are you talking territory or minds?
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-11-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
51. Both
This makes me think we are in as much control as Von Paulus and the 6th Army was at Stallingrad.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. BBC UK just led late news; indicated Iraq on verge of disintegration --
n/t
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llmart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. But...but...but...
they have a stockmarket!
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Anymore detail DeepModem Mom??
No mention what so ever tonight on the news about Basra. The Iraq news was all about Allawi's "iron fisted resolve against the insurgents"... :puke:
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. TV news is never in depth, even in UK, but it's the Shiite uprising...
BBC was leading with. I'm not sure BBC thinks it can be stopped.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
33. Oh well, that's just not our problem any more, is it?
After all, we magnanimously gave them their sovereignty a few weeks ago. :shrug:

/sarcasm
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wrate Donating Member (376 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. You would hardly know this by watching any of the American news networks.
n/t
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. They seem to be trying hard to keep a lid on everything...
until the election. I'm not sure they can.
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OK_DemX2 Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. So much for being "Liberators".....
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Do Iraqis have the right...
to self determination or not? The US Neo Fascists stated that Iraq has been liberated. If so, the Iraqis should be able to chose what type of Govt they desire. The present US Puppet Govt. that the US has set up does not represent the majority of Iraqis. It seems that al Sadr has more support than the US Puppet Govt. does.
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Myrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Well, no ... that would be Sovreignty
... and we all know that Sovreignty is a concept that President Doofus is not real familiar with.

:evilgrin:


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Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Al Sadr is toast
"It seems that al Sadr has more support than the US Puppet Govt. does."

False. Iraqis are sick and tired of the insurgents and want them out of the way so they can get on with their lives. There may be little love for the US presence, but there is less love for the insurgents who kill civilians indiscriminately and kidnap Iraqis for profit.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. That Is Unlikely, Mr. La Paz
Insurgencies on this level cannot continue without a good deal of popular support. If this is absent, guerrilla operatives swiftly find themselves in the hands of the security services....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. Indeed...
and it is also worth noting that the Iraq insurgency is not one monolithic hand led by Zarqawi, Bin Laden, or Satan, but rather that it is composed of a variety of different groups, not all of which are aligned.

It seems to be the foreign fighters who are launching the car bombings, and from what I've read it isn't like they and the Iraqi nationalists are best of friends....
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. they & the Iraqi nationalists, true
Edited on Tue Aug-10-04 09:56 PM by Aidoneus
or even they and the Iraqi "Islamists". The Zarqawi-myth is disliked also by the most elder sheikhs of the mujahideen in Fallujah, and also by Sayyid Muqtada(H.A.) for example. There is far too much at work to simplify matters as above; some tendencies are more effective and respected than others that are trying to butt in.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Many of the subtleties in this are beyond me...
Edited on Tue Aug-10-04 10:18 PM by Darranar
I'm stuck in a position of trying to keep track of the present and the past at the same time, in a situation where little is clear and few sources are trustworthy....

The Zarqawi stuff seems doubtful to me; the resistance, as a whole and even restricted to anti-"coalition" foreign fighters, seems too scattered to have a single hand, or even two or three, behind it, and the "safehouse" raids seem to have flimsy evidence behind them, with bases that make little sense at all.

Are those in control of Fallujah, for the most part, Ba'athist or "Islamist" (or neither, as the case may be)? Is there a significant foreign presence there?
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. that "as above" bit wasn't about you, btw
Edited on Tue Aug-10-04 10:58 PM by Aidoneus
sorry, I'm not really in any mood to write right now. I'll try to speak on this a little later, ok?--bookmarking this to remind myself.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. eh..
Edited on Tue Aug-10-04 09:45 PM by Aidoneus
far from toast, Sayyid Muqtada(H.A.) is by far the biggest thing going right now. Where is it that you are getting your information?
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Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. Muqtada is not Al Sadr
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-11-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #42
46. ...it might be the 4hrs sleep I've had in the last 3 days talking, but..
huh?
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-11-04 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #42
48. I ditto the "huh?" BBC Link
The Sadr group

This group represents a radical, home-grown trend which some see as a force to be reckoned with. It is named after a popular religious figure, Ayatollah Mohammed Sadeq al-Sadr, who was assassinated - apparently by agents of the Saddam regime - in 1999.

The group is now led by the ayatollah's 30-year-old son, Muqtada al-Sadr.

Muqtada IS Al Sadr, unless you are referring to his dead father.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2967717.stm
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Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-11-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. Sorry, I was confused for a moment there, Muqtada is Al Sadr . . . nt
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
38. That's wishful thinking.
From everything I've read, which means mostly non-U.S. sources, the Iraqis don't necessarily love al-Sadr, but they HATE the occupation and understand that the violence is due to our presence in their country.

Sorry, al-Sadr isn't losing support - he's GAINING it. And God help us if they make a martyr out of him!

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Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Not Gaining support, no groundswell
If Al Sadr were gaining support, his army would not be holed up in a cemetery and dying in droves. If he were gaining support, the siege would be broken and his thugs would be running free.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Several Small Points, Sir
Edited on Tue Aug-10-04 11:45 PM by The Magistrate
By no means is the whole of Mr. al'Sadr's militia operating today in the vicinity of the Ali shrine and the old cemetery. There are sizeable contingents at Baghdad and Basra, among other places.

It is very questionable whether the condition of even those forces could be properly described as beseiged. The cordons are very loose, and those reported as encircled have slipped them before.

Matters on the ground generally differ greatly from the happy reports given by headquarters to the press for eager retelling by cheerleading journalists. The claimed casualties inflicted are certainly greatly inflated, and the corpses will by no means be comprised exclusively, or even predominantly, of Mahdi militiamen.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. I bow to The Magistrate's explanations, which pretty much prove you wrong.
Sorry - this post is more wishful thinking on your part. Iraq is exploding in resistance, in no small part thanks to al-Sadr's followers.

Time will show you the reality of al-Sadr's support. I can't say I like the guy, but I sure can't say I blame him for fighting back, either.

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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-11-04 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. Dying in droves?
What info do you use to justify this statement? The "we've killed 300 militia in 2 days" line the US military has been spewing the past few days? They said the same thing in Vietnam, fabricating bodycounts when they fired a few thousand rounds into the jungle and found no bodies. If you recall, we didn't exactly win their either.

Also recall the seige of Fallujah, where the US military claimed to have killed over 600 militia fighters there. Reporters who went in after the fighting found an entire soccerfield turned into a cemetary, with many of the graves those of women and children, not the 600 resistance fighters the US claimed to have killed. Basically, whatever the US military tells you regarding how many Iraqi fighters they killed, take with a gallon of salt.

BTW, the news reports have been reporting resistance fighters are setting up roadblocks and attacking US forces throughout Basra, Najaf and Baghdad for the past few days. Hardly holed up in a cemetary if they're actively patrolling streets, wouldn't you say?

Look at your initial statement in reverse. If Al Sadr's forces WEREN'T making sizable inroads against US occupation, would they still be fighting and dying today? Would the US still be losing 2 soldiers/day on average? If Al Sadr truly were toast, he would have been dead or captured a long time ago. Instead, his uprising seems to be at the very least maintaining itself, if not growing.
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-11-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
52. I'm not so sure the US is ever going to prevail.
We created a political vaccum and now are stuck with the results. I think something similar to what happened in the Balkins is going to follow until the Iraqis sort this mess out - AND regain control of their oil.
How many lives do you think the coillition of the willing is going to spend there before the last Americans bug out on the choppers lifting out of the remaining defended buildings in the Green Zone ?

I can't WAIT until we invade Iran next. and on to Syria ? ( but wait where's the OIL?)
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. Yes ....these are sad times.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Sad
Sad, sad, sad.
But Bush is happy and smirking just the same.
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maddogesq Donating Member (915 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
14. These song lyrics seem appropriate for the situation.
Edited on Tue Aug-10-04 07:11 PM by mdogdrum
"Just a step cried the sad man
Take a look down at the madman
Theatre kings on silver wings
Fly beyond reason
From the flight of the seagull
Come the spread claws of the eagle
Only fear breaks the silence
As we all kneel pray for guidance

Tread the road cross the abyss
Take a look down at the madness
On the streets of the city
Only spectres still have pity
Patient queues for the gallows
Sing the praises of the hallowed
Our machines feed the furnace
If they take us they will burn us

Will you still know who you are
When you come to who you are

When the flames have their season
Will you hold to your reason
Loaded down with your talents
Can you still keep your balance
Can you live on a knife-edge"
--Emerson, Lake, Fraser, Janacek
(Emerson, Lake and Palmer)

Sorry, but I think song lyrics sometimes forcast future events.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
15. Thank You, Mr. Memory
Edited on Tue Aug-10-04 08:48 PM by The Magistrate
It is a damned shame that such serious and important news as this is wholly absent from the "party press" with which our country is currently afflicted. On questions of this war and occupation, there is no room whatever for doubt that the press is serving as a mere speaker box for the clique currently in control of the government, and with a blinkered servility that would make a Pravda editor blush.

The degree of hostility felt towards the U.S. occupation by ordinary Shi'ites has gone unreported, been glossed over, and gone unrecognized. Perhaps the worst of it is that the people in charge of policy may actually believe themselves the delusions they attempt to foist on the people of our country, and thus may genuinely be surprised by such developments. The idea that a word from the chief puppet in Baghdad would make pitched battle in Najaf seem inoffensive to the mass of Shi'ites is beyond ludicrous; it can only proceed from some devil's brew of ignorance, hubris, and incompetence sufficient to warrant prosecution for criminal negligence when displayed by people with power over more than the mouth they run at a bar.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. al Sadr
He and his malitia have popular support. Confusing him and al Q or other extremists is a common error and one that the US Admin. would like for everyone to believe. I am not supportive of al Sadr or his msg. but the Iraqi people do have the right to support whatever politician they desire to. Iraqis of course are sick of all the violence but it still doesn't seem that they are pro-US colonization, which is what the US Puppet Govt. is backing. Here is the truth behind the so-called "sovereignty".

Full Sovereignty?

"Throughout the spring, as hundreds died in the spiraling conflict, as Regime bosses applied their hardcore "anti-terrorist" tortures to innocent bystanders raked up in their occupation nets, as Regime mouthpieces prated endlessly of "liberation" and "sovereignty," Bush viceroy Paul Bremer was quietly signing a series of edicts that will give the United States effective control over the military, ministries -- and money -- of any Iraqi government, for years to come, The Wall Street Journal reports.

Bremer has placed U.S.-appointed "commissions" made up of Americans and local puppets throughout Iraqi government agencies; the ministers supposedly in charge weren't even told of the edicts. These boards "will serve multiyear terms and have significant authority to run criminal investigations, award contracts, direct troops and subpoena citizens," the Journal reports. Any new Iraqi government "will have little control over its armed forces, lack the ability to make or change laws and be unable to make major decisions within specific ministries without tacit U.S. approval, say U.S. officials.


Earlier Bremer edicts laid the Iraqi economy wide open to ruthless exploitation by Bush-approved foreign "investors"; dominance of such key sectors as banking, communications -- and energy -- is already well advanced. The latest dictates aim to ensure that this organized looting goes on, no matter what kind of makeshift "interim government" the United Nations manage to piece together. Bush's plans to build a Saddamite fortress embassy in Baghdad and 14 permanent military bases around the country are designed to provide the knee-breaking "security" for these lucrative arrangements."



http://context.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/05/21/120.html
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
39. Re: "the speaker box"- I just reread a CIA tell-all about press steering.
While most of us are duly outraged at the Murdoch Lens of lies and corporate fear-mongering, I was stunned by former Angola CIA station chief John Stockwell's tell-all from 1987 which mentioned that the US press had been wholly co-opted and steered by the CIA for decades!

This nightmare is much older than the 2000 coup and the neocons.

No wonder our country has so successfully been led down the fascist rail of destruction.

Note confirmation of the concentration camps maintained by FEMA and the warnings about the elimination of the Bill of Rights which became 'The Patriot Act' and the current illegal 'pre-emptive' war.

All planned for Nicaragua under Reagan by the same people who stole the White House back in 2000 and went into Afghanistan and Iraq.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4068.htm
(How CIA Secret Wars Killed 6,000,000 People In the Third World)

>snip<

John Stockwell, former CIA Station Chief in Angola in 1976, working for then Director of the CIA, George Bush. He spent 13 years in the agency. He gives a short history of CIA covert operations. He is a very compelling speaker and the highest level CIA officer to testify to the Congress about his actions. He estimates that over 6 million people have died in CIA covert actions, and this was in the late 1980's.

>snip<

"We are killing, and killing, and terrorizing people. Not only in Nicaragua but the Congress has leaked to the press - reported in the New York Times, that there are 50 covert actions going around the world today, CIA covert actions going on around the world today.

You have to be asking yourself, why are we destabilizing 50 corners of the troubled world? Why are we about to go to war in Nicaragua, the Central American war? It is the function, I suggest, of the CIA, with its 50 de-stabilization programs going around the world today, to keep the world unstable, and to propagandize the American people to hate, so we will let the establishment spend any amount of money on arms...."

>snip<

"We had the `public safety program' going throughout Central and Latin America for 26 years, in which we taught them to break up subversion by interrogating people. Interrogation, including torture, the way the CIA taught it. Dan Metrione, the famous exponent of these things, did 7 years in Brazil and 3 in Uruguay, teaching interrogation, teaching torture. He was supposed to be the master of the business, how to apply the right amount of pain, at just the right times, in order to get the response you want from the individual.

They developed a wire. They gave them crank generators, with `U.S. AID' written on the side, so the people even knew where these things came from. They developed a wire that was strong enough to carry the current and fine enough to fit between the teeth, so you could put one wire between the teeth and the other one in or around the genitals and you could crank and submit the individual to the greatest amount of pain, supposedly, that the human body can register.

Now how do you teach torture? Dan Metrione: `I can teach you about torture, but sooner or later you'll have to get involved. You'll have to lay on your hands and try it yourselves.'

.... All they could do was lie there and scream. And when they would collapse, they would bring in doctors and shoot them up with vitamin B and rest them up for the next class. And when they would die, they would mutilate the bodies and throw them out on the streets, to terrify the population so they would be afraid of the police and the government.

And this is what the CIA was teaching them to do."

>snip<

"The United States CIA is running 50 covert actions, destabilizing further almost one third of the countries in the world today...."

>snip<


", they send the CIA in, with its resources and activists, hiring people, hiring agents, to tear apart the social and economic fabric of the country, as a technique for putting pressure on the government, hoping that they can make the government come to the U.S.'s terms, or the government will collapse altogether and they can engineer a coup d'etat, and have the thing wind up with their own choice of people in power.

Now ripping apart the economic and social fabric of course is fairly textbook-ish. What we're talking about is going in and deliberately creating conditions where the farmer can't get his produce to market, where children can't go to school, where women are terrified inside their homes as well as outside their homes, where government administration and programs grind to a complete halt, where the hospitals are treating wounded people instead of sick people, where international capital is scared away and the country goes bankrupt."

>snip<

"You remember the (School of the Americas) assassination manual? That surfaced in 1984. It caused such a stir that President Reagan had to address it himself in the presidential debates with Walter Mondale. They use terror. This is a technique that they're using to traumatize the society so that it can't function.

I don't mean to abuse you with verbal violence, but you have to understand what your government and its agents are doing. They go into villages, they haul out families. With the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children."

>snip<

"The Church committee found that the CIA had co-opted several hundred journalists, including some of the biggest names in the business. The latest flap or scandal we had about that was a year and a half ago. Lesley Gelb, the heavyweight with the New York Times, was exposed for having been working covertly with the CIA in 1978 to recruit journalists in Europe, who would introduce stories, print stories that would create sympathy for the neutron bomb.

The Church committee found that they had published over 1,000 books, paying someone to write a book, the CIA puts its propaganda lines in it, the professor or the scholar gets credit for the book and gets the royalties. The latest flap we had about that was last year. A professor at Harvard was exposed for accepting 105,000 dollars from the CIA to write a book about the Middle East. Several thousand professors and graduate students co-opted by the CIA to run its operations on campuses and build files on students.

And then we have evidence - now, which has been hard to collect in the past but we knew it was happening - of CIA agents participating, trying to manipulate, our elections."

>snip<

"The `Pre-emptive Strikes' bill. President Reagan, working through the Secretary of State Shultz... almost 2 years ago, submitted the bill that would provide them with the authority to strike at terrorists before terrorists can do their terrorism. But this bill... provides that they would be able to do this in this country as well as overseas. It provides that the secretary of state would put together a list of people that he considers to be terrorist, or terrorist supporters, or terrorist sympathizers. And if your name, or your organization, is put on this list, they could kick down your door and haul you away, or kill you, without any due process of the law and search warrants and trial by jury, and all of that, with impunity.

Now, there was a tremendous outcry on the part of jurists. The New York Times columns and other newspapers saying, `this is no different from Hitler's "night in fog" program', where the government had the authority to haul people off at night. And they did so by the thousands. And President Reagan and Secretary Shultz have persisted.... Shultz has said, `Yes, we will have to take action on the basis of information that would never stand up in a court. And yes, innocent people will have to be killed in the process. But, we must have this law because of the threat of international terrorism'.

But they're pressing for this. The special actions teams that will do the pre-emptive striking have already been created, and trained in the defense department.

They're building detention centers. There were 8 kept as mothballs under the McLaren act after World War II, to detain aliens and dissidents in the next war, as was done in the next war, as was done with the Japanese people during World War II. They're building 10 more, and army camps, and the... executive memos about these things say it's for aliens and dissidents in the next national emergency....

FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, headed by Loius Guiffrida, a friend of Ed Meese's.... He's going about the country lobbying and demanding that he be given authority, in the times of national emergency, to declare martial law, and establish a curfew, and gun down people who violate the curfew... in the United States.

And then there's Ed Meese, as I said. The highest law enforcement officer in the land, President Reagan's closest friend, going around telling us that the constitution never did guarantee freedom of speech and press, and due process of the law, and assembly.

What they are planning for this society, and this is why they're determined to take us into a war if we'll permit it... is the Reagan revolution.... So he's getting himself some laws so when he puts in
the troops in Nicaragua, he can take charge of the American people, and put people in jail, and kick in their doors, and kill them if they don't like what he's doing....

The question is, `Are we going to permit our leaders to take away our freedoms because they have a charming smile and they were nice movie stars one day, or are we going to stand up and fight, and insist on our freedoms?'..."
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. It is well to remember that the current situation is not really new
The interference in Iraq and mistreatment of its population has antecedents - behind St. Ronnie's grin were some serious teeth. Many people thought this behavior would end, if only communism was not "making it necessary". But there will always be another boogie man created to justify repression. And there will always be a need for resistance to repression.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-11-04 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. A Sound Point, Mr. Daleo
It may be that a thing is done for a stated reason, but where new reasons are found, once that has lapsed, to do the same thing, the motive must be different than any of the stated reasons, which are revealed as mere pretexts by the exercise.

Even the reason of defeating Soviet Communism was really insufficient; that would have been defeated sooner and more efficiently by a program of reform aimed at raising the prosperity enjoyed by the people of third world countries to the point revolution held no attraction for the mass of them.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
21. Full-scale US offensive comming? Troops WARN population to EVACUATE!
Edited on Tue Aug-10-04 09:11 PM by bpilgrim


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/69AC8061-3B3E-47FF-97DA-9B7F1CBF8995.htm

...

US troops called on Iraqi civilians to immediately evacuate areas where fighting with al-Mahdi Army fighters was intense, raising fears of a full-scale US-led offensive.

Soldiers in Humvee vehicles toured Najaf with loudspeakers and urged the population to leave the combat zone.

more...
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/69AC8061-3B3E-47FF-97DA-9B7F1CBF8995.htm

peace
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. A Damned Bad Business, My Friend
Sure as a gun we are going to crack that golden dome before it is through....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. i don't see any good way out of this mess
considering who got the 'con' :argh:

peace
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. There Is None, Sir
That was the best reason to avoid this course in the first place. Some people are such fools they must stick their hands in fire to learn for themselves it burns....

"It is fools who say they learn from experience: I prefer to take my profit by the experience of others."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. True, and that will be the act that ignites the entire country. The
Shi'ites believe that Muhammad's son-in-law was his (Muhammad's) successor. If the tomb of Ali is damaged or destroyed, it is comparable to what Catholics would feel if the Vatican were destroyed, except that the Shi'ite have a double axe to grind. The ruination of the mosque as well as the carnage and destruction of their country. The combination of which will guarantee that every American, or anyone perceived as being allied with the US (including the puppet government)are just dead men walking.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. To Be Fair, Ma'am
Mr. al'Sadr is courting that result deliberately by using the shrine as a base of operations. But that will not matter in the eventuality; the man who dropped the bomb, not the man who set himself up for its target, will be blamed by the populace.

"Revolution is not a tea party."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. I understand that al Sadr is using the mosque to his advantage.
And it's a pretty smart strategy (for his purposes). And I think it's going to work. The man plays everything cagey. Truce one day, attact the next. Offer to work with the government one day, call them American puppets and call for their overthrow the next. They guys doing everything and anything that promotes his agenda. In this country he'd be described as a 'flip-flopper'.

He's playing the religion and the 'we are an occupied nation' cards at the same time. He's playing on the anger of the poor, on the anger of the Shi'ites who were suppressed for so long, and on the religious fervor of everybody. And it's a no-win situation for the government and the US.

Capture him, all hell breaks loose, kill him and he becomes a martyr and ironically it will be al Sadr that they'll sing songs about for a thousand years.

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. That Is True, Ma'am
Situations that clearly cannot be won are to be avoided in the first place....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. It's a very smart strategy...
and frankly there's nothing the US can do to avoid it.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. World, acmavm..
The Shia peoples of the world are very close to each other. An offense so great would draw a legitimate response from Detroit, London, Nabatiyah, Madinat as-Sadr, Qom, Tehran, Herat, Karachi, Baltistan, and Lucknow, everywhere in between and beyond.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. pics of the 'golden dome'




peace
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LivingInTheBubble Donating Member (360 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-11-04 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
53. Thanks, its quite pretty. NT
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
40. The firestorm that will provoke - my God.
If only we could wake up from this nightmare.

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