Edwards pledges at Miami rally to be tough on Castro, terrorism

[Freddie Stubbs]

By Christy McKerney
Staff writer
Posted August 3 2004

MIAMI · Sen. John Edwards on Monday pledged that he and Democratic presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry would be tough on terrorists and keep the pressure on Fidel Castro.

"When John Kerry is president of the United States we will say to these terrorists, `You can't run, you can't hide, and we will destroy you,'" Edwards told about 300 cheering Democrats during an early morning rally at the James L. Knight Center's theater in Miami.

The rally came one day after the Bush administration warned Americans of possible terrorism attacks against financial institutions in the northeast and the same day President Bush announced the creation of a new intelligence director position.

Edwards also tailored some remarks for Miami-Dade County's Cuban-American community. Miami-Dade has the state's largest population of Cuban-Americans, who traditionally vote Republican.

more: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-cedwards03aug03,0,4198122.story?coll=sfla-news-sfla

[GreenArrow]

1. "we'll smoke 'em out

of their holes!"

[lottie244]

33. Castro has WMDs and poses an imminent threat to the USA...

I have to hold my nose to vote in this election.

[annak110]

41. Me too, and I'm less and less able to hold my nose

tightly enough to blot out the smell...

[annak110]

43. Me too, and I'm less and less able to hold my nose

tightly enough to blot out the smell...

[Pastiche423]

56. My nose has been abused for decades

But not this year.

Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for the real Republican all the time.

Harry S. Truman

[CityDem]

60. Why pander to these groups

Why not speak the truth? I hate this double speak that most candidates use when speaking to interest groups.

[Zhade]

61. "imminent threat"??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Where in the WORLD would you get THAT idea?

Oh, right, the U.S. Pravda press.

Please tell me you're not serious.

[PsychoDad]

201. But, to be fair...

We are more of a threat to Cuba than they are to us.

[PsychoDad]

202. That's what I thought...

Hunt them down, etc...

Smoke 'em out!

[Mika]

2. As usual

All politicians come to Miami and pander to the worst elements of our community.

Sadly, Edwards appears no different.



For those who are interested, take a look at just who we are supporting "fighting for freedom", on our payroll, in Cuba.

-Cuba and the Myth of the 'Independent Libraries'-
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=54&ItemID=5960

Created in 1998 by Mr. Ramón Humberto Colás Castillo according to the leadership of the United States Interest Section (SINA) in Havana, it thought that the "independent libraries" would give the illusion of a growing opposition against the Cuban government. The birth of those entities fits directly in the political maneuvering of the United States which consists of manipulating the reality of the island."(2) Indeed, those libraries should officially allow Cubans to have access to real independent information, but in reality they were propaganda groups at Washington's service.

Among the works provided by the Interests Section to those "librarians", reports were found written by the United States Department of State that supported the matter of human rights violations in Cuba, President Bush's speeches, as well as writings dealing with the functioning of American society. The Miami Herald and The Nuevo Herald newspapers considerably influenced by the extreme right Cuban exile community, also supplied the "librarians", as well as the literature produced by Florida's fascist constituents. They were in permanent contact with Mr. James Cason, head of the United States Interests Section in Cuba, and applied its guidelines in exchange for financial payment.(3) Mr. Cason arrived in Havana in September, 2002, was distinguished by his provocateur attitude, his interventionist statements and his public meetings with the "Cuban dissidence." (4)

The odd result was that none of the international press had raised logical questions. Independent libraries in Cuba? Perhaps Cubans do not have access to books? Let's leave ideological prejudices behind and use numbers.

Much more.. http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=54&ItemID=5960



Kerry's stated policy on Cuba:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/8848574.htm

Under a Kerry administration Cuba will remain under US sanctions

Under a Kerry administration we will still be travel banned unless our travel is deemed politically worthy by US gov jackboots

Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall!

[robcon]

6. You seem to be encouraging Castro's crackdown on libraries, Mika.

Let 'em be. What does Castro have to worry about? An alternative voice in Cuba?

[Mika]

10. They aren't libraries

How would your government feel about it if an avowed enemy of the US with a long record of assaults on your country were to fund and open up illegal "libraries" in your neighborhoods, that were instructing a stark and violent minority on how to overthrow the system of government in your country?

US funded "independent libraries" in Cuba is like Al Queda funding "independent libraries" in the USA.

It just simply would not happen.

-

Even the ALA does not recognize the "independent libraries" in Cuba as being independent libraries, but US propaganda outlets..

The Last Word on Cuban 'Independent Libraries'
http://www.lisnews.com/article.php3?sid=20010314225701

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mika]

30. No they weren't

They were arrested and tried for violating Cuban constitutional law #88.


Law #88-
Accepting funding from any foreign enemy state or foreign organization or entity whos mission is to overthrow the system of government in Cuba.

-

Law #88 was passed in response to the US's 'Libertad Act', which is the act that authorizes US funding of Cuban political entities with the intent of overthrowing the current system of government (like the so called "independent libraries").

Law #88, just like laws in the USA, bans illegal foreign funding of political parties.

[Judi Lynn]

44. Oh, no, Mika! Not again! Don't you wonder why some people

dont' take time to read the material you provide?

If nothing else, they should trust the fact you know your material before you post here. I've never seen you make a shakey or goofy statement here, yet!

At the now defunct US/Cuba Relations message board at CNN, Cuban "exile" extremist, fanatic posters used to launch attacks on the pro-Cuba posters, flying at them like human chain saws, hurling insults, accusations, evaluations, etc., etc. about things which had already been contradicted in the articles right in front of their eyes which they refused to read.

We came to believe they NEVER read the articles, because the links always contradicted them, and they refused to admit they were wrong.It also could be that some of them were simply too stupid to read.It's obvious they were victems of short attention spans.

It was clear that the ones who were invested in trying to learn about Cuba were the ones who keep reading, and shared links with others, while the right-wing extremists who kept coming there to fight had decided to setttle for the false version of reality, and weren't interested in knowing what they were talking about!

It's really startling when people learn that the ALA has had to struggle against bogus spokespeople masquerading as authentic representives in order to introduce really rancid propaganda schemes manufactured by our ugliest extremists within our right-wing nutso class. This is a good passage from your article:

Who are the Independent Librarians?

You will read on the pages of Cubanet about the individual
"libraries" and their personnel. Not one of the people listed is
actually a librarian. Not one has ever been a librarian. Most,
however, are leaders or officers of various dissident political
parties, such as the Partido Cubano de Renovacion Ortodoxa and the
Partido Solidaridad Democratica. This is documented on Cubanet,
although Mr. Kent never mentions these party affiliations in his FCL
press releases. We know absolutely nothing about the principles,
programs or activities of these parties, or why they have been
allegedly targeted. We don't know whether their activities are lawful
or unlawful under Cuban law. Kent maintains that their activities are
solely related to their books - but in reality we have no idea whether
this is true and in fact, one of these "librarians" told one of our
ALA colleagues that this was not true! By using the terms
"beleaguered," "librarians" and the buzzwords "freedom of expression"
and "colleagues" Mr. Kent hopes to get the a priori support of
librarians who might not look beneath this veneer. After all, isn't
this the reason that the subcommittee will be considering their case
in the first place? But I wonder if ALA is willing to establish the
precedent that all politicians with private book collections who
decide to call themselves "librarians," are therefore our
"colleagues"?

4. Who funds Cubanet, the Directorio, and the "independent libraries"
- and why is this important?

A recent book entitled Psy War Against Cuba by Jon Elliston (Ocean
Press, 1999), reveals, using declassified US government documents, the
history of a small piece of the 40-year-old propaganda war waged by
our country against the government of Cuba. The US has spent hundreds
of millions of taxpayers' dollars over these years to subvert and
overthrow the current Cuban government - US activities have included
complete economic embargo, assassinations and assassination attempts,
sabotage, bombings, invasions, and "psyops." When even the fall of
the Soviet Union and the devastation of the Cuban economy in the early
1990's did not produce the desired effect, the US embarked on
additional, subtler, campaigns to overthrow the Cuban government from
within. One element of this approach is the funneling of monetary
support to dissident groups wherever they can be found, or created.
This includes bringing cash into the country through couriers such as
Mr. Kent, and increasing support to expatriate groups operating inside
the US, such as the Directorio, Cubanet and especially, the Cuban
American National Foundation (CANF) The website Afrocubaweb
(www.afrocubaweb.org) has gathered information from the Miami Herald
and other sources to document the recipients of this US funding.
USAID, a US government Agency, supported the Directorio Revolucionario
Democratico Cubano to the amount of $554,835 during 1999. This is
the group that supports the "independent librarians" in Cuba and is
listed as their "foreign representative." The money that they send to
Cuba, as well as the "small amounts" of cash that Mr. Kent carried
illegally to Cuba violates Cuban law, which does not allow foreign
funding of their political process. Neither does the United States
allow foreign funding of its own political process - the furor around
alleged Chinese "contributions" to the Democratic Party is a case in
point. The "independent libraries" may be independent of their own
government, but they are not independent of the US government. The US
government is not the only anti-Castro entity that has adjusted its
policy to changing times-- the most right-wing forces in the Cuban
expatriate community have also stepped up their support of dissident
elements inside Cuba over the last few years. The Miami Herald
reported in September 2000 that "the leading institution of this
city's exile community plans to quadruple the amount of money it sends
to dissident leaders on the island..." This leading institution is the
Cuban American National Foundation (CANF), and the article reports
that part of the group's $10,000,000 budget will begin "flowing to the
island through sympathetic dissidents by the end of the year." More
specifically, CANF will, among other declared activities, "increase
funds to buy books for its independent libraries."(6)
(snip)

What about our real colleagues - the librarians of Cuba?

The charges that have been spread by Kent and his FCL have deeply
offended our real colleagues, the librarians of Cuba, and our sister
library association, ASCUBI. Our real colleagues are beleaguered by
shortages of things as simple as paper, professional literature,
computers and printers - and much of this has to do with their
inability, because of the US blockade, to purchase any items from US
companies (or foreign companies doing business with the US).
Computers cannot be brought to Cuba from the US legally, even as a
donation by licensed travelers. True "friends of Cuban libraries"
would be concerned about these matters. It is time that we begin to
know our real counterparts/colleagues in Cuba. It is time that we
begin to have the kinds of conversations and exchanges on all subjects
-- including intellectual freedom and censorship. It is US policy,
not Cuban policy, which prevents us from doing so. As the
representative of US librarians, the ALA has an obligation first to
address our own country's limitation of freedom of expression and the
freedom to travel, then to criticize others. The American Library
Association cannot allow itself to be the willing instrument of a US
government/CANF-sponsored disinformation campaign. If the ALA takes
any action at all on Cuba, it should be to call for an end to the
embargo and the hostile US policy towards Cuba which harms the
democratic rights, including freedom of expression, of both the Cuban
and US people. ALA should begin in the spirit of the resolution
passed by the US librarians who attended the IFLA conference in Havana
in August 1994 (see attached). Copyright 2001 Ann C. Sparanese,MLS
Head of Adult & Young Adult Services Englewood Public Library
Englewood, NJ 07631 201-568-2215 ext. 229
[e-mail]
(snip/)

Thanks a lot, Mika. It's always a good day when you can see something bearing the truth is getting circulated!
:hi:

[geek tragedy]

51. The rhetoric of all tyrants is the same

Dissidents are accused of disloyalty and being agents of a foreign power. They're traitors, outside agitators, troublemakers, criminals, etc.
Blah blah blah

Castro is straight out of Orwell.

The fact is that Castro doesn't tolerate dissent.

The only reason people here apologize for Castro's oppression is that he follows a left-wing economic agenda instead of a right-wing one like Pinochet.

The Patriot Act would be progress for Cuba.

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0410/hentoff.php

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0352/hentoff.php

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr250172003

<snip>
Amnesty International has reviewed trial documents for 51 of the 75 dissidents prosecuted. The section on individual cases below contains information on the specific charges against given individuals. In general, the prosecutors' briefs accuse the dissidents of

· receiving funds and/or materials from the United States government, either through its agencies or third parties,
· in order to engage in a number of activities which the authorities perceived as subversive and damaging to Cuba's internal order and/or beneficial to the embargo or other punitive measures by the US against Cuba.

. . .

The dissidents were not charged under articles of the Penal Code covering spying or revelation of secrets concerning state security (articles 95-97), and the evidence given does not point to such activity. None of them held sensitive positions of authority through which they would have access to privileged information. Whatever the merits of the Cuban government's argument with the United States over its practices in Cuba, a review of the limited information contained in the trial documents indicates that the specific behaviour for which dissidents were prosecuted was non-violent and seemed to fall within the parameters of the legitimate exercise of fundamental freedoms rather than those of any recogniseable criminal activity.

According to the trial documents available, the activities on which the prosecutions were based included, among others,

· publishing articles or giving interviews, in US-funded or other media, said to be critical of economic, social or human rights matters in Cuba.
· communicating with international human rights organisations.
· having contact with entities or individuals viewed as hostile to Cuba's interests, including US functionaries in Cuba and hardline figures or groups in the Cuban exile community in the United States and Europe.(90)
· distributing or possessing material, such as radios, battery chargers, video equipment or publications, from the US Interests Section in Havana.
· being involved in groups which have not been officially recognised by the Cuban authorities and which were accused of being counterrevolutionary, including among others unofficial trade unions, professional associations such as doctors' and teachers' associations, academic institutes, press associations and independent libraries.
Despite the Cuban government's claims that such acts threatened national security and therefore warranted prosecution, the above activities constitute legitimate exercise of freedoms of expression, assembly and association, and cannot in themselves justify the authorities' repressive reaction.
<snip>

Whether people choose to consciously believe the language of totalitarianism or not is their choice. I choose to reject it.

[Judi Lynn]

53. I'm glad to see you're reading on this subject.

There's a lot to cover.

Here's something which refers to Amnesty International's position on the "dissident" roundup:

Amnesty should stop being so gullibly led by those who would undo a system of social justice which most members and supporters of Amnesty would like to see implemented everywhere in the world, if they could only open their eyes and see it for what it is. The “dissidents” supported by the US Interests Section, CIA and anti-revolutionary Cubans around the world are not the honest, progressive, freedom-loving people Amnesty liberals believe them to be. And the revolution led by Fidel Castro, with all its human defects and deficiencies, is not the repressive monster that those who would demonise in order to destroy it would have you believe.
(snip/)

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1994/158/158p15b.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

By the way, I saw your response to Dick Cheney's remark earlier today, and snickered more than would be healthy in a mortal person.

Wanted to commend you, but it had already been done on the thread.
Very, very funny.

[geek tragedy]

54. I agree that Castro isn't a monster

and that he has had significant achievements in his rule--especially in social rights.

And I also agree that the embargo is simply horrible policy.

I also think that Castro uses the US as an excuse to stifle dissent. I suspect that the embargo has done more to solidify his rule than anything else.

Accusing Amnesty of being a right-wing tool is just silly though. Amnesty has a hardcore dedication to civil liberties and procedural rights--they emphasize them over economic "rights" such as health care and education. Not a stance I always agree with, but it hardly makes them Bush's willing servants.

[Zhade]

66. I'm pretty sure that wasn't JudiLyn's argument.

Or the argument of the source she cited.

The point (at least as I read it) is that Amnesty International can be led to certain conclusions by very subtle and deceitful people - like those in the b*sh administration, for one - in its intense and honest desire to support all those things you correctly state they strive for.

Certainly that's a possibility - as I've said, I see good progressives on this very board taken in by the rightwing CANF lies. That's not to disparage those progressives' intentions one bit, but to underline that it's an uphill battle, and those pushing the rightwing propaganda have a lot of ammo and funding.

[Judi Lynn]

77. There are and will be holes in their knowledge of every situation

Here's a great example from Venezeula in which Chavez' admin. was blamed for confiscation of tv news equipment and a picture was projected of censorship which was totally flawed:

Reporters Without Borders (which did protest against the closing of CatiaTV), demonstrating a disappointing lack of understanding of the Venezuelan media situation, said that reporters there were "caught between an authoritarian president and an intolerant media." The private networks are advocates of a coup, call supporters of Chavez 'monkeys', and distort information to a remarkable degree. But the people can't rely solely on the state media. This is exactly what makes community media like CatiaTV so important. It is also why Alfredo Pena shut it down.

http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=3993§ionID=45

It was not revealed widely to people who heard about it that it was the mayor of Caracas, Alfredo Pena who HATES Chavez who did it and for entirely personal reasons which had NOTHING to do with Hugo Chavez. The mayor hates Chavez, and works entirely against him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You may also remember reading that Amnesty International blocked the showing of "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised."

Published on Saturday, November 22, 2003 by the Guardian/UK
Chavez Film Puts Staff at Risk, Says Amnesty
Recriminations after documentary on Venezuelan coup attempt is dropped from a Vancouver festival

by Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles

An award-winning documentary about the coup last year that briefly ousted the Venezuelan president, Hugo Chavez, has become the subject of a bitter dispute. Last week, it was withdrawn from an Amnesty International (AI) film festival because Amnesty staff in Caracas said they feared for their safety if it were shown.
(snip)

Last week, the film was due to be shown at the AI film festival in Vancouver. The organizing committee came under pressure from Chavez opponents in Venezuela and eventually decided not to show it.

John Tackaberry of AI said yesterday that the decision had been taken only after Amnesty staff in Venezuela had said that, if it were shown, it would present "some degree of threat to their physical safety".

They told colleagues that, even if Amnesty ran a standard disclaimer, the organization would be associated with the film, thus endangering its staff.
(snip/...)

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1122-10.htm

The question here would be, are they a human rights organization meant to show the light on dangerous truths which endanger human beings, or are they just putting in 40 hours a week, and don't get paid to take any risks? Jeezus.

[Zhade]

82. I need to see that film.

Now, here's what's interesting to me: if Amnesty International was worried about being associated with the film, and the film (from what I understand, if you've seen it you can vouch for this) depicts the truth about the coup, then clearly the threat of violence comes from the opponents of Chavez, not the man himself.

As I understand the facts around the coup, Chavez was in the right and the plotters in the wrong (dissolving the Constitution and legislative bodies hardly paints the coupers as pro-democracy). So, the film shows Chavez in a good light, as based on the reality of the situation.

We know those facts, and thus my question is this: when you have AI fearing violent retribution from the anti-Chavez crowd, and not Chavez, doesn't this speak volumes about the true nature of his opposition?

And yet, people still foolishly believe the opposition gives a damn about the Venezuelan people.

[Judi Lynn]

86. It's as if taking a moment to think it over would kill them painfully.

It only takes a small opening in the constricted mind for an insight to lodge, which would produce movement to a whole new perspective.

Jeez.

I haven't been able to see the movie, either. I keep trying to check the internet every time I think of it to see if anyone has the movie for sale, yet.

Really hoping it goes on sale before the election, just like the Michael Moore film.

The American public really could benefit from seeing the effects of _{George Bush's} foreign policy in action.

[geek tragedy]

Amnesty's function is to investigate human rights abuses.

They don't take GWB's or anyone else's word for it--they investigate these things themselves.

Castro's Cuba was a loyal satellite to the totalitarian empire of the USSR.

Can you name the person who was the closest to defeating Castro in an election?

In my experience, only a few, naive people of a very, very narrow band of ideology reject the notion that Castro is a dictator. Please don't ask me to believe that a majority of liberals (as opposed to leftists) in this country, and a majority of Canadians and Europeans are all dupes of the right-wing.

Leftists can be dictators too.

[Zhade]

89. Of course, you know I made none of these arguments.

They don't take GWB's or anyone else's word for it...

Please don't ask me to believe that a majority of liberals (as opposed to leftists) in this country, and a majority of Canadians and Europeans are all dupes of the right-wing.

Happily, I never argued these points. They are straw men, and not worthy of debate, as I never posited these arguments.

In my experience, only a few, naive people of a very, very narrow band of ideology reject the notion that Castro is a dictator.

First, that's anecdotal, so irrelevant. Second, it's heavily salted with nice buzzwords to thinly disguise what amounts to an insult - that I am "so naive" and of such a "very, very narrow band of ideology" that I can't see the notion (wise decision not to say "fact", incidentally) that Castro is a dictator.

You're above this. There's no need to resort to a tactic like this. Unless, of course, you truly think this, in which case I'd say you should apply this to the rest of the world, whose countries clearly don't see Castro as a dictator.

Leftists can be dictators too.

While another straw man, I'll concede this point. However, just because they CAN be does not automatically mean Castro IS one.

[Zhade]

64. You're being somewhat disingenuous.

Which surprises me - I read your posts over in I/P, and you make some damn fine points on the correct side of those arguments.

It might be more accurate to say that Castro does not tolerate anti-Cuba dissent directed and fostered by the country which has vowed to destroy both Castro and Cuba for daring to stand up to it.

I believe your intentions are honorable, but your information flawed. And that's coming from someone who once thought Cuba was an evil country and Castro was as bad as Stalin, for what it's worth.

[geek tragedy]

74. I despise the US policy towards Cuba. It makes things worse for

everyone there.

At the same time, I don't think anti-Castro=anti-Cuba.

My perspective is that Castro is a cold war dinosaur who is neither the horrific monster that the right says he is nor the saint some on the left say he is.

His revolution made lives better in Cuba. But, he has succumbed (as would virtually any person) to the the seduction of power.

[Zhade]

78. " I don't think anti-Castro=anti-Cuba." Fair enough.

They do not necessarily correlate. You are correct.

This, however:

But, he has succumbed (as would virtually any person) to the the seduction of power.

I don't want to be rude, but...er...can you prove that? Because what I see is somewhat restrictive measures against those who use violence and rightwing-produced propaganda in the effort to overthrow an elected leader, not widespread repression of the Cuban people.

I'm certain you agree that it would be nice to be able to go to Cuba and see for ourselves!

[geek tragedy]

79. I'm against the travel ban (as are even extreme anti-Castro Cubans)

He's throwing these people in jail for long prison sentences. They had committed no acts of violence. There was no organized plot to commit violence.

These people don't want Castro to be the leader of Cuba, and want a change in the form of government. That shouldn't be illegal.

[Zhade]

85. I can't ask you to prove a negative.

So, I can't ask you to document that there was no organized plot to commit violence. The onus is on me to prove otherwise.

However, before I could attempt to do that, I'll have to ask who you mean by "these people", as I don't recall any particular people being referred to thus far in our conversation.

These people don't want Castro to be the leader of Cuba, and want a change in the form of government. That shouldn't be illegal.

Well, of course that shouldn't be illegal. My question is, is it really illegal?

As you doubtless already know, Cuba's government was reformed in 1976 by popular vote. Castro is only one of hundreds of elected officials - hardly the "tyrant" you paint him as in another post.

Assuming that these people want peaceful change, they are always free to organize with and run as members of the many active political parties that exist in Cuba.

The hinge of this particular debate rests on exactly what Cubans you are referring to being thrown in jail.

[geek tragedy]

87. The people referred to in the Amnesty study.

Take the people in Henthoff's columns as well.

As far as Castro being a tyrant is concerned, again I ask if anyone has come remotely close to challenging him.

The Cuban Constitution of 1976 is warmed over Stalinism. Everyone has free speech, but all means of communication are owned by the government, which is loyal to the Communist party, and free speech against communism and socialism is prohibited.

Not a democracy. Not even close.

[Zhade]

91. Ah, thanks for the clarification. I'll read up on them.

As far as Castro being a tyrant is concerned, again I ask if anyone has come remotely close to challenging him.

Welllll...that hardly counts as a cause-and-effect argument. Perhaps *gasp* the Cuban people love Castro enough that he remains in power because they want him to? I don't know - since we can't go there, I can't ask Cubans directly.

The fact that I would be able to ask such a question, though, kind of proves my point.

The Cuban Constitution of 1976 is warmed over Stalinism.

Bold statement. Care to back it up?

Not a democracy. Not even close.

I never argued that Cuba was a democracy. Yet again, that's a straw man. I argued that Castro is not a tyrant, and that Cuba has free elections, only excluding those who, say, foment violence against the Cuban government.

I would like to say, btw, that I am actually enjoying our discussion, even with the occasional straw man thrown in. Far too many people get reactionary on these boards, and your calm, reasoned arguments, however I may view them, are appreciated. Seriously.

[geek tragedy]

96. Thanks.

As far as the Cuban constitution of 1976is concerned, here is a link to it: http://www.georgetown.edu/pdba/Constitutions/Cuba/cuba1976.html

<snip>Art. 5. El Partido Comunista de Cuba, vanguardia organizada marxista-leninista de la clase obrera, es la fuerza dirigente de la sociedad y del Estado, que organiza y orienta los esfuerzos comunes hacia los altos fines de la construcción del socialismo y el avance hacia la sociedad comunista.
<snip>

The basic thrust is that you can say anything, as long as you don't oppose the right of the Communist party to rule Cuba.

[Mika]

117. It says no such thing

It says no such thing as you say --> "The basic thrust is that you can say anything, as long as you don't oppose the right of the Communist party to rule Cuba."



It says that the role -the thrust, the driving force- of the communist party in Cuba is to advance the principles of socialism toward a communist society.





I am discouraged that you would post such a disingenuous interpretation of #5.

[Zhade]

125. Wow.

Have I just been wasting my time in my arguments?

[Mika]

151. No, you haven't wasted any time

Your arguments are salient.

Don't let the -tragedy- derail the discussion with fake translations and interperetations of the Cuban constitution. Pure distraction.



The Cuban constitution suggests the limits and the nature of the communist party in Cuba. It does not dictate nor limit other political parties, provided that they are 100% sovereign.

[Zhade]

153. Thanks. I've tried to be intellectually honest and logical.

As always, I appreciate your efforts, as well as JudiLyn's and others here.

[geek tragedy]

126. Read Article 62

<snip>
ARTICLE 62. None of the freedoms which are recognized for citizens can be exercised contrary to what is established in the Constitution and by law, or contrary to the existence and objectives of the socialist state, or contrary to the decision of the Cuban people to build socialism and communism. Violations of this principle can be punished by law.
<snip>

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

131. Are you sure?

"Art. 62. Todo ciudadano tiene derecho a dirigir quejas y peticiones a las autoridades y a recibir la atención o respuestas pertinentes y en el plazo adecuado, conforme a ley."

Every citizen has the right to direct their grievances and petitions to the authorities and to receive attention or pertinent answers in the proper time frame, according to the law.

[geek tragedy]

133. According to this link:

http://www.georgetown.edu/pdba/Constitutions/Cuba/cuba1992.html

<snip>
Artículo 62.- Ninguna de las libertades reconocidas a los ciudadanos puede ser ejercida contra lo establecido en la Constitución y las leyes, ni contra la existencia y fines del Estado socialista, ni contra la decisión del pueblo cubano de construir el socialismo y el comunismo. La infracción de este principio es unible.
<snip>

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

134. I'm going by the one you posted above. n/t

[Mika]

148. You are pulling shit out of your ass!

What language are you speaking?

#62 says that every citizen has a right to address their complaints thru pertinent channels and to receive timely responses, according to the law!

Why such egregious distortions? :shrug:

[geek tragedy]

150. Habla espanol?

http://www.georgetown.edu/pdba/Constitutions/Cuba/cuba1992.html

<snip>
Artículo 62.- Ninguna de las libertades reconocidas a los ciudadanos puede ser ejercida contra lo establecido en la Constitución y las leyes, ni contra la existencia y fines del Estado socialista, ni contra la decisión del pueblo cubano de construir el socialismo y el comunismo. La infracción de este principio es unible.
<snip>

<snip>
Artículo 63.- Todo ciudadano tiene derecho a dirigir quejas y peticiones a las autoridades y a recibir la atención o respuestas pertinentes y en plazo adecuado, conforme a la ley.
<snip>

But, if you cover your ears and shout at the top of your lungs, maybe it'll just go away.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

155. There seems to be some confusion because you seem to have

posted 2 versions of the constitution. Which one are we going by? I think it would clear up some of the mix up.

[geek tragedy]

159. Let's use the Georgetown link.

This is the only English version I could find onlne:

http://64.21.33.164/ref/dis/const_92_e.htm

Can't vouch completely for the accuracy--though the parts I've checked seem to match up.

[Mika]

164. Lets not - on this thread. This thread is about Edwards & Cuba policy

Why are you derailing this thread with a dissection of the Cuban constitution.

There have been dozens of posts dedicated to a mix up with the links that YOU posted.... and now you want to distract this thread even more??

Go do it elsewhere - please.

[geek tragedy]

165. People here launched into a very spirited and condescending

defense of Fidel Castro and Cuba.

Obviously, the merits of Castro and his regime are fair game in a discussion of US policy towards Cuba. And citing provisions of the Cuban Constitution that PROVE that it doesn't permit real freedom of expression or of the press is legitimate.

It's called discussion and dissent. You're just pissed because you lost the argument.

[Mika]

179. Contradictions.

First you say this..

geek tragedy post #74--> "At the same time, I don't think anti-Castro=anti-Cuba."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=724903#725810




Now you say this..


geek tragedy--> "People here launched into a very spirited and condescending defense of Fidel Castro and Cuba."


I see no defense of Castro's merits in this thread, only some defense of what the Cuban people have done. Yet, you seem to equate the two in your latter statement, despite your former statement.

:wtf:

[geek tragedy]

180. I misspoke (actually mistyped)

I meant "Cuba's government." My bad.

I don't separate Castro from the Cuban government.

[Mika]

203. "I don't separate Castro from the Cuban government."

"I don't separate Castro from the Cuban government."


Then you do equate the two, which is a big "mistake" - and a convenient "mistake" too - because it makes for easy and distracting demonization of an entire nation and its people for those with near zero understanding or the real Cuba, now. Just who are the people who know the least about modern Cuba? Americans. Because America's own government refuses to let Americans have enought liberty and freedom to travel to Cuba to see and learn about the place and the people for themselves.


That is just what is wrong with US policy towards Cuba - it refuses to acknowledge or recognize that the Cuban people run Cuba, which makes it all the easier to abuse their nation.



http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

119. Eso no es lo que esta escrito en el articulo # 5. n/t

[IndianaGreen]

123. Some people only speak Taco Bell Spanish

and their knowledge of Cuba and Latin America is as shallow as our educational system, which is pretty shallow.

[geek tragedy]

142. Yeah, they're so shallow

that all they can do is regurgitate time-warp retrograde Stalinist slogans over and over and over.

"Cuba is a democracy. Even though there's only one party. And the government controls the press. And opposing the government and Communism is a crime."

[Zhade]

152. None of which you've proven.

Indeed, you have been deceitful in your translations. Plus, there's the actual fact that there is more than one party in power, but don't trifle with that little fact.

I'm pretty disappointed in your efforts. You can at least be honest in your arguments. It's not hard - if I can do it, so can you.

[geek tragedy]

154. What party is in power in Cuba besides the Communists?

By definition, there is no free press when the government controls all mechanisms by which people can express themselves. That is a defining characteristic of an authoritarian state.

And deceitful in my translations? Read Articles 5 and 62 in combination with each other, and tell me how creative a Cuban prosecutor would have to be to throw someone in jail for criticizing the Communist party.

As far as the one-party system is concerned, he is but one source supporting my assertion:

http://www.georgetown.edu/pdba/Parties/Resumen/Cuba/desc.html

[geek tragedy]

141. Que dice articulo 5?

<snip>
Artículo 5.- El Partido Comunista de Cuba, martiano y marxista- leninista, vanguardia organizada de la nación cubana, es la fuerza dirigente superior de la sociedad y del Estado, que organiza y orienta los esfuerzos comunes hacia los altos fines de la construcción del socialismo y el avance hacia la sociedad comunista.
<snip>
http://www.georgetown.edu/pdba/Constitutions/Cuba/cuba1992.html

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

143. EL articulo # 5 dice exactamente lo que Mika escribio en la

respuesta 117. Si vas a traducir algo. Por lo menos, ten la cortesia de escrbirlo tal y como es.

[geek tragedy]

149. Lo leo con articulo 62.

Combinados, dicen que no es posible decir nada contra Castro y el Partido Communista.

[Mika]

156. GO START YOUR OWN THREAD

This thread is was about John Edwards speaking to Miami Cuban-American "leadership".

geek tragedy, go start another thread with your false tranlations. I'll join you over there.... but for now, THIS thread is about John Edwards and his Cuba platform - here, in the US of A.

[Zhade]

158. Yeah, GT performed an excellent hijacking.

Kinda wish I hadn't spoken up, even as right as I was.

[geek tragedy]

161. Wow, the insults are now flying.

Funny how that happens when people can't win an argument.

And you had me thinking you had some class.

Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, fool me twice, won't get fooled again.

And, jeez, heaven forbid we let someone who agress with Edwards to some degree join the debate over the merits of his comments.

The title of this thread was not "Let's Say Nice Things About Fidel Castro."

In the future, don't speak up--just shove it.

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

177. Where did I lie?

I was using two different sources which were off in the numbering.

Check out the Georgetown link.

Read Articles 5, 53 and 62.

Article 5: Grants the Communist Party special legal status as vanguard of communism in Cuba.

Article 53: The government owns every possible way of communicating with the public.

Article 62: No civil rights protection for those opposed to Communism in Cuba. Opposing Communism in Cuba is a crime.

Connect the dots.

[Zhade]

181. For starters, your assertion that Cuba is a one-party state.

That is factually inaccurate, and you were provided evidence that it is not solely a communist-party political system before you posted that it's a "one-party state".

Square the fact that only roughly 15% of politicians in power in Cuba are members of the communist party with your wrong assertion that Cuba is a one-party state.

Then there are your mistranslations. Some of them may be mix-ups, but some of them - such as the "no free press" one refuted by Mika - are dishonest, or at the very least inaccurate.

I will retract that you knowingly lied, and concede you may simply be misinformed. There's nothing malicious in that, and if that's the case then I offer my apologies.

[geek tragedy]

184. You haven't proven any of my statements incorrect

The government OWNS the press in Cuba. Citizens don't even get to touch the press without the government's permission and supervision.

Advocating a departure from Communism (and the ruling Communist party) is illegal in Cuba.

Prove that Cuba isn't a one-party state. What parties compete against the PCC? We're talking about registered, legal, active political parties within Cuba.

And do you have a source to show that only 15% of the governmental officals and representatives belong to the Communist party?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin_america/jan-june98/cuba_2-9.html

<snip>Ramon Font is a poet who also writes and produces a weekly program for Cuba’s government-controlled television network. Even after 40 years and the Pope’s implied criticism, he insists it’s necessary for Cuba to remain a Marxist one-party state.

RAMON FONT, Cuban Writer: Why shouldn’t we? That’s what we want to be. Maybe 200 years from now, maybe we can have two parties, but does the existence of two parties guarantee democracy?
<snip>

[Zhade]

186. No, others have.

For example, post #104, wherein Mika gives some sources for the fact that Cuba is not a one-party state.

[geek tragedy]

188. Those parties are not legal in Cuba.

Their members face jail time if they speak up too loudly. Some aren't even based in Cuba.

The CDP's head has been imprisoned by Castro--he is not free to run for office.

The DSP is based in the US.
The CSRDP is also based in the US.

The ULC is based in Spain.

[Mika]

190. Its buried here

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

--


Plus, this,
http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates. Instead the candidates are nominated by grass roots assemblies and by electoral commissions comprising representatives of all the mass organisations.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

160. Ahora, esa es tu interpretacion.

Pero ya que esta claro que entiendes el lenguaje, pero la persona a la cual le proveiste el articulo no. Yo creo que una traduccion literal acompañada por tu opinion hubiera sido una forma mas clara y concisa de expresar tu punto.

That's what I think anyway.

[geek tragedy]

163. Si, es la verdad.

Still, one must remember that governments are never as democratic as the constitutions that bind them. And the Cuban constitution gives those in power great power to stifle dissent.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

169. I would have to compare it with other constitutions

, specifically the ones used in Latin America. That is the frame of reference that I find more pertinent.

[geek tragedy]

175. The rule I go by is:

The bastards will get away with whatever the Constitution lets them.

Usually works.

[Mika]

166. I speak Cuban OK. ..

;-)

My Spanish is a little less literal, but, reasonably represent the point. Obviously, there is a difference in the two versions of the constitution that were linked to by GT.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

173. Well, if I were to speak "Rican". Then nobody would know WTF

I'm talking about. :hi:

[geek tragedy]

182. Do you mean

'Murican or Nuyorican or something else? ;)

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

183. Nope. Just plain ol' Boricua.

I'm not versed in Nuyorican yet. Nor in 'Murican (otherwise known as Bushit). Hopefully the latter one will wither away along with a certain failed presidency.

[geek tragedy]

185. Amen.

I think Bush should be sent to Guantanamo.

[Zhade]

187. This we can agree on!

NT!

[Mika]

189. Here here

:toast:

[IndianaGreen]

195. No, I think the US should return Guantanamo to Cuba

and grant independence to Puerto Rico while we are at it.

[geek tragedy]

196. The Cubans can have Guantanamo, as far as I'm concerned.

But the Puerto Ricans don't want independence.

[Judi Lynn]

81. I was wondering that ,also.

A couple of years ago, Fidel Castro had been giving a speech under a hot summer sun for hours to a crowd in Havana, and he started to faint. He faltered and started falling before some people came to get him.

You may remember reading that the people in the crowd were stunned, and unhappy about it. They were in shock, and worried. There were many people who were crying among them.

I just don't read that as something which happens around a person who hasn't given everything for his people.

[geek tragedy]

88. GWB would have the same reaction

He only allows his supporters to attend his rallies. Why couldn't Castro do the same thing?

[Zhade]

92. He could. Can you prove he does, however?

NT!

[geek tragedy]

99. There are people who LOVE aWol.

I wish I could explain it, but I can't.

Having devoted followers and admirers is certainly possible for a dictator. Bush, Stalin, Hitler, Saddam--all have their devotees.

[Mika]

102. Cubans are devoted to their SYSTEM.

And that is proven out by their stats.

No critically thinking person could believe that Cubans are forced to produce good schools for their children, or have to have it forced on them. Dedicated educators, librarians, and parents do it, every day.

No one would take seriously the claim that the Cuban people resist their universal health care system - that rivals or betters that of the fully 'developed' nations. Dedicated doctors, researchers, nurses, and educators do it, every day.

Focusing on castro castro castro is the single minded distraction for easy and simple minded demonization of an entire nation, the amazing acomplishments of all Cubans together, and its progressive system and dedicated and activist citizens.



The Cuban people kicked out the most brutal dictator in Cuban history, Batista - who was fully supported by the US gov and US organized crime.


To think that one man, one 'dictator', Castro, could do this is a fucking slap in the face of the Cuban people.

Learn from Cuba
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall!

[Zhade]

106. "There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997"

There are school systems here in America that would KILL for that kind of classroom ratio.

Thanks for this info.

[Mika]

109. I know plenty on AMericans that would give their left one..

.. for total and high quality universal health care for their entire family (parents and children), day care, violence free schools, gun free local cops, FAMILY VALUES, representation, etc.


Viva Cubañia

[Zhade]

113. I'd give mine right now.

Seriously - I've already had one son, and I don't plan on having more kids (too many people on Earth already) - take it, I don't mind!

[IndianaGreen]

120. There is a school for autistic children in Havana

They have 57 teachers for 58 autistic students. Cuba puts a high emphasis on human dignity, something that our great capitalist American system has yet to achieve despite our country being far richer than Cuba.

Socialism trumps capitalism any day!

[Zhade]

103. You didn't answer my question.

Yes, it's possible for dictators to have admirers. It's also irrelevant, as I never argued this was impossible. It's becoming somewhat tiresome belaboring the obvious here.

My question was this: can you provide credible evidence that Castro only allows his admirers to assemble at his speeches? That was the thrust of your unsupported corollary, which was that b*sh too would have a similar crowd reaction were he to faint, based on the acknowledged fact that b*sh only allows supporters near him.

My question had nothing to do with some fools who love b*sh or the fact that dictators can also be loved.

[geek tragedy]

105. Of course, I can't prove that

It's not like there's an independent and free press there to investigate.

But, let's be frank: The vast majority of people attending a political rally are going to be enthusiastic supporters.

[Zhade]

107. "It's not like there's an independent and free press there to investigate"

Again, an unsupported allegation.

Of course, that aside, you could reference independent, non-Cuban sources. Surely if this is occurring, someone somewhere would document this.

But, let's be frank: The vast majority of people attending a political rally are going to be enthusiastic supporters.

Ah, but that's hardly the same thing as Castro only allowing his supporters at a rally, isn't it?

One presupposes the choice not to come, the other assumes a diktat that only loyalists may attend. To argue that, because the vast majority of a rally's attendees are supporters, then there must be some rule enforced that only allows supporters, is specious reasoning.

[geek tragedy]

122. Regarding the complete lack of an independent press, the Cuban

Constitution says so:

<snip>
ARTICLE 53. Citizens have freedom of speech and of the press in keeping with the objectives of socialist society. Material conditions for the exercise of that right are provided by the fact that the press, radio, television, cinema, and other mass media are state or social property and can never be private property. This assures their use at exclusive service of the working people and in the interests of society.
<snip>

[IndianaGreen]

127. Our "free press" sold us the idea of WMDs

and that Bush was a great "Warrior King" (Chris Matthews's characterization) in the aftermath of 9/11.

I'll take the Cuban press over our capitalist press any day!

[geek tragedy]

137. Our free press also took down Richard Nixon.

And, while irritating and maddening, are not employees of George W. Bush.

[IndianaGreen]

139. The Watergate press came to an end years ago

when corporations decided that newspapers and TV news should reflect the corporate philosophy. It wasn't just Rupert Murdoch, but GE and Clear Channel.

There is no free press in America!

[Mika]

144. OH MY GAWD!

geek tragedy post 122--->>>"ARTICLE 53. Citizens have freedom of speech and of the press in keeping with the objectives of socialist society. Material conditions for the exercise of that right are provided by the fact that the press, radio, television, cinema, and other mass media are state or social property and can never be private property. This assures their use at exclusive service of the working people and in the interests of society.
<snip>"





Here is what it really says...

Art. 53. Los derechos de reunión, manifestación y asociación son ejercidos por los trabajadores manuales e intelectuales, los campesinos, las mujeres, los estudiantes y demás sectores del pueblo trabajador, para lo cual disponen de los medios necesarios a tales fines. Las organizaciones sociales y de masas disponen de todas las facilidades para el desenvolvimiento de dichas actividades en las que sus miembros gozan de la más am plia libertad de palabra y opinión, basadas en el derecho irrestricto a la iniciativa y a la crítica.


:wtf:


Here's a more realistic interpretation,

The rights of unionization and association of all manual and intellectual workers, farmers, women, students, and other sectors of the community to forward their aims. All membership of such organizations are guaranteed the right to facilitate such activities and the right to form and disseminate unrestricted critiques and opinion (newspapers and platforms) and to acquire both local and world opinion (news sources of all sorts).

[geek tragedy]

171. Check the Georgetown link

My bad for using two different sources.

[Judi Lynn]

94. Here's comment from a CIA report

and we all know the CIA is NOT predisposed to have fond thoughts of Cuba WITHOUT a US-approved, bloody tyrant running things there, like Fulgencio Batista.


CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland
Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority
By Robert Windrem
NBC NEWS PRODUCER

NEW YORK, April 12 <2000> THE CIA has long believed that while 1 million to 3 million Cubans would leave the island if they had the opportunity, the rest of the nation’s 11 million people would stay behind.

While an extraordinarily high number, there are still 8 million to 10 million Cubans happy to remain on the island.
(snip)

The CIA believes there are many reasons Cubans are content to remain in their homeland. Some don’t want to be separated from home, family and friends. Some fear they would never be able to return, and still others just fear change in general. Officials also say there is a reservoir of loyalty to Fidel Castro and, as in the case of Juan Miguel Gonzalez, to the Communist Party.

U.S. officials say they no longer regard Cuba as a totalitarian state with aggressive policies toward its people, but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds — just not push the envelope.

More important, Cuban media and Cuban culture long ago raised the banner of nationalism above that of Marxism. The intelligence community says the battle over Elian has presented Castro with a “unique opportunity” to enhance that nationalism.

There is no indication, U.S. officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to U.S. officials.
(snip/...)

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ019.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Look at it this way: It took a long time for you to get pressed into your view of anything. It's going to take you some time to test what you hear and read, I would guess.

With some of us, it takes a few gentle nudges to alert us to the idea that maybe we are parroting propaganda. You can find out about this if you start looking for information to support your position, using legitimate sources.

It can be done. You shouldn't just take anyone's word for it. It doesn't work that way. Something has to seem proper and correct before you want to pack it into your belief system, if you aren't a psychopath!

[geek tragedy]

98. Of course, authoritarian governments NEVER rely on nationalism

to cement their rule.

Or is it that they ALWAYS do so?

The Cuban constitution itself speaks volumes. It enshrines a communist system of government, and makes disagreement a crime.

[Zhade]

108. Or is it that they OFTEN do?

Seems to me the rising nationalism in Iraq is AGAINST authoritarian governments - namely, Allawi's illegitimate government, and our own which props it up.

Certainly, that nationalism COULD be used to form an authoritarian government once we leave/get kicked out of Iraq, but this is not a guarantee by any means.

It enshrines a communist system of government, and makes disagreement a crime.

Please cite the exact passages that make mere disagreement a crime (and please, in English if possible, I'm American and thus only speak one language :P ).

Or, if what you mean is that it makes disagreement with the establishment of Cuba as a communist system of government a crime, then please cite where simple, peaceful disagreement with this premise is labeled a crime.

[geek tragedy]

118. Article 62 of the Cuban Constitution

<snip>ARTICLE 62. None of the freedoms which are recognized for citizens can be exercised contrary to what is established in the Constitution and by law, or contrary to the existence and objectives of the socialist state, or contrary to the decision of the Cuban people to build socialism and communism. Violations of this principle can be punished by law.
<snip>

[Zhade]

62. They don't want the truth, JudiLyn.

It's easier to follow the lies about Cuba, especially when the rightwing Batista-nostalgic "exiles" have such influence on both parties.

Sometimes I despair for this country. If otherwise good progressives are all too willing to swallow the documented lies about Cuba and Castro from a press and government they know lies to them constantly, how can they see the large scope of the problems of the American empire?

I know they mean well (most of them, anyway). That's what makes it so frustrating. And I know they're intelligent, so why not exercise some logic?

For example: the literacy rate in Cuba, as independently confirmed by non-Cuban groups, is pretty much 100%. Paid college educations for Cubans are also significant. What "dictator" educates his populace and has no problem with them being educated in the country that has vowed to destroy that dictator (in this case, America) and then return home, with all that knowledge of how a "free" society operates?

Educating the masses is hardly a mark of totalitarianism. Education is usually the first thing to go under the iron heel.

It appears we'll have "more of the same" under Kedwards. Lost opportunities for real progress, sadly.

[Judi Lynn]

67. Perfect aim in your post.

Just yesterday I read somewhere that it's ILLITERACY which is used to keep people powerless.

I'm sure you also are aware that Cuba has been giving free medical educations to disadvantaged American students on condition that when they complete their studies they return to the U.S. and work to help the poor here.

Remember Freecancat and Osolomia used to tell us, frequently travelling there from home in Canada, that everyone ELSE in the world can come and go to Cuba freely, and that Americans are simply confused thinking they are isolated from the rest of the world, and living in the dark ages. They have TONS of contact daily with a very enthusiastic tourist class.

One of the first jolts I had as I started awakening to the thought I was clueless about Cuba was reading a remark from someone who posts here, on another message board. She said she had a conversation with an "ordinary" Cuban she met who was totally familiar with the names and writing of U.S. newspaper columnists. That just knocked me out. I had lived all this time thinking they are unable to read about the U.S. Duh.

The more you try to read and listen about this subject, the more you find out we've been had! Pathetic.

[Zhade]

70. Well, it's simply logical. I'm stunned by others' failure to see it.

The argument reminds me of the myth of the "liberal media" - I often ask people a question they can't seem to answer:

If the media is so "liberal", how come the "liberal" media complains so often about being "liberal"? Why broadcast the "fact" (*snort*) that you are the very thing you decry? And how come b*sh gets a pass on so much, yet the media savaged Clinton over a blowjob?

It just doesn't make sense, unless you realize that - DUH - the media ain't so liberal after all.

One thing I'd like to do before I die is visit Cuba, to see for myself what the country is like. I'm getting a fairly good idea, but nothing beats first-hand experience. I think it's criminal and, indeed, unAmerican that we are banned from going there. Hell, we can go to CHINA, for cripes sake, but not a country in our own backyard?

Utterly, utterly ridiculous.

[geek tragedy]

75. The USSR had 100% education too.

Remember that education also means indoctrination. Anyone force-fed the sanitized version of American history in school can attest to this.

[Zhade]

95. So close. Good effort.

Yes, certainly it CAN mean indoctrination. However, one does not necessarily follow the other.

Can you offer credible evidence that Cuba's educational system amounts to indoctrination?

Anyone force-fed the sanitized version of American history in school can attest to this.

GREAT play for my sympathetic ears. As both a descendant of Native peoples and an attendee of American schools, I definitely believe the American educational system designed by the corporate honchos of yesteryear to be a massive indoctrination system. However, just because I feel this about America's system in no way proves that Cuba's system is the same.

And, of course, the USSR has been gone for over a decade, so it no longer holds sway over Cuba.

[geek tragedy]

100. I think all educational systems are a form of indoctrination.

Cuba's constitution makes it clear that opposing the Communist party is an absolute, criminal no-no.

It's inconceivable that such thinking wouldn't be reflected in an educational system controlled by loyal members of the Communist party.

[Mika]

104. You really don't know what you are talking about, on this subject

Only about 15% on Cubans identify themselves as members communist party.

Cubans have affirmed that socialism is their system of choice, in many open elections.


I was in Cuba during their 1997-98 election season - including the ratification vote.


Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70




http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Castro has been elected to that position since 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[Zhade]

111. Simple logic. Thanks, Mika.

Refreshing how clear thinking can illustrate the truth:

Only about 15% on Cubans identify themselves as members communist party.

Bingo. Circle gets the square!

Man, where do you think Castro dumps the bodies of the 85% of Cuban politicians who aren't communists?

</sarcasm>

[geek tragedy]

116. Cuba is a one-party state.

Guess what percentage of "elected" representatives and government leaders belong?

[IndianaGreen]

128. Cuba is NOT a one party state. The USA is a one party state!

with the GOP and the Democrats being two sides of the same coin.

There is more democracy in Cuba than in the US.

Cuban women, like Soviet women in 1920, have more reproductive rights than American women ever had even under Roe v. Wade.

[geek tragedy]

130. That is simply and factually incorrect.

Communist propaganda and lies.

NO freedom of the press in Cuba.

NO right to oppose Communism in Cuba.

No right to organize a political party to resist Castro or the Communist party in Cuba.

[IndianaGreen]

132. Since you have never been to Cuba

and you only believe the 150-years of anti-Socialist propaganda that is taught in our schools, your assertions are as credible as the Pope's on the role of women.

[geek tragedy]

135. Of course I should go to Cuba

where Fidel Castro and his secret police can control my access to information.

Spare me the Communist apologism. Castro is a cold war dinosaur in a regime based on Stalin's.

He has made social progress, but there is no democracy in Cuba.

[IndianaGreen]

138. Continue to read the NY Times, Washington Post and WSJ

then ask yourself "why do they hate us?" when reality bites us in our collective asses once again!

[Mika]

162. Never been there, but know all about it

Its like repugs calling Michael Moore's movie 'full of lies' without ever seeing it.

Pathetic.

[geek tragedy]

168. No, pathetic is using Paya's story to defend Castro.

That is pathetic, and a little funny as well.

[Mika]

176. Defending Castro? - I was wondering how long it would take you

Classic accusation.
Classic distortions.
Classic distractions.


Gotta hand it to ya though.. you did derail the topic of this thread,

-Edwards pledges at Miami rally to be tough on Castro, terrorism-


Nice work.

[geek tragedy]

178. People complained that US policy was unfair

and that the Cuban government was more democratic.

I just didn't join in the groupthink.

And you cited Paya as proof of Cuban democracy

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&forum=102&topic_id=724903&mesg_id=726272
Those other parties are illegal, banned, or in exile"

<snip>
Please, stop spewing nonsense. How about doing a little extended research before making such proclamations.

I guess that you've never heard of Nobel prize winning Oswaldo Paya, of the Christian Democratic Party of Cuba
<snip>

You cited the example of a man who has been chronically threatened and imprisoned by Castro as an example of how Cuba isn't a repressive, one-party state.

Not my fault you made an absurd argument.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

167. Likewise, friend.

Feel free to ignore everyone who has a better grasp on the truth.

[Zhade]

170. Better grasp? Thanks for the laugh.

You're a riot! :)

[geek tragedy]

174. I've proven my assertions.

Right there in the Stalinist text of the Cuban constitution.


Please, using the Georgetown link, please tell us how articles 53 and 62 don't indicate that Cuba has extreme restrictions on political expression.

[geek tragedy]

115. Wow, you've really been drinking the Kool AId. LOL!

The Communist Party is the ONLY LEGAL POLITICAL PARTY IN CUBA. Those other parties are illegal, banned, or in exile. Just ask the ULC--they're based in SPAIN.

[Mika]

124. LINK PLEASE

"The Communist Party is the ONLY LEGAL POLITICAL PARTY IN CUBA."

Link please.



And please, don't mangle the Cuban constitution like you tried to regarding Article #5.




"Those other parties are illegal, banned, or in exile"


Please, stop spewing nonsense. How about doing a little extended research before making such proclamations.

I guess that you've never heard of Nobel prize winning Oswaldo Paya, of the Christian Democratic Party of Cuba

[geek tragedy]

129. Castro threw Paya in prison, for your information.

Where do you get your information--Fidel Castro's lawyer?

[JNelson6563]

73. and American libraries cry for funding

but let's go build a bunch of 'em in Cuba. Ugh.

Julei

[liberalmuse]

3. Damn!

Enough about Cuba, already. Lift the goddamn sanctions! Just to get votes from the former Battista supporters. I'm really sick of this group of people influencing our foreign policy. We owe them our thanks for the Bush brothers.

[tlcandie]

4. Sigh.. HEAVY sigh.....

Too early and this just made my day get off to a rather crappy beginning.

*thinks of going back to bed and pulling covers over head and not getting up again until it's all over*

[leesa]

5. What crap! Tough on Castro for WHAT???

Same old shit!

[PeaceProgProsp]

7. Did people complain when Clinton did this and won FL once

and almost won it the other time?

[tlcandie]

9. I didn't know then what I know now and I didn't vote then...

so my answer is NO! Does that change anything for me now? NO!

[PeaceProgProsp]

14. What do you know now?

That Dems have no chance of winning FL unless they get more than 58% of the actual vote?

[tlcandie]

17. What I know now is more about Cuba and the falsehoods that

are stated/printed about it thanks to JudiLyn and many others here in DU. I know the truth not what this group in Florida or the mainstream media, or my government speaks out about it.

What I know is that I live in Florida and honestly, I don't think it will matter who votes what or where or when in Florida...jebbie will pull the plug. Does that stop me from trying or talking to others about trying? NO!

I don't do percentages and number games and all the hype and jive that a lot do here. I try to base my principles and decisions on facts.

BTW, a simple, "What do you know now", would have sufficed if you weren't looking to slant my answer toward what you wanted to hear.

[PeaceProgProsp]

18. Debating Cuba policy and debating winning 2004 strategy are

two different issues.

I'm sure we agree 100% on Cuba policy.

However, it's upsetting to see people criticize Democrats running for office who probably agree with you and me about Cuba policy for having strategy which is clearly the right strategy.

I'm not disappointed in the least when I see Democrats doing what we all know works to win elections.

You can't change Cuba policy by sitting on the sidelines and letting Republicans run the world.

[tlcandie]

19. I agree that it is two separate issues atm.

I also agree with your last statement. We first have to be able to even have a voice or someone who will listen to us to even begin to make changes regarding Cuba or anything else for that matter.

I would hope that in the future maybe it isn't a separate issue.

EDIT: Took out something that I was mistaken about due to having just awakened. :O

[Mika]

20. Hello.

"You can't change Cuba policy by sitting on the sidelines and letting Republicans run the world."

Well, the dems do no better.

Clinton expanded the travel sanctions, created the 'wet foot/dry foot' immigration policy, signed Helms-Burton (the harshest sanctions), signed the 'Libertad Act', and more.

The horrific policies against Cuba and Cubans and Americans has a bipartisan stamp of approval. All for campaign cash.

Example,

CANF founder and Clinton fundraiser Jorge Mas Canosa & Bill Clinton

[PeaceProgProsp]

22. Cuba is pretty complicated, and the problems of dealing with the

political realities don't stop on election day.

Having said that, I do believe that Castro was pretty happy, generally with Clinton's approach to Cuba.

Had Bush been president, he probably would have invaded after Cuba shot down that passenger plane that wouldn't leave Cuban airspace.

[IndianaGreen]

32. I have been to Cuba, and I have friends in Cuba

To hear Democrats endorse a war of terrorism against people I know and I care about should be condemned in the strongest terms.

Does Edwards endorse the kidnaping of Elian Gonzales? Does he want to take Elian away from his father, stepmother, and little brother to make the Miami rabble happy?

[PeaceProgProsp]

49. That's reading a lot into Edwards's statement.

[Zhade]

68. The right strategy is not always the right thing to do.

I'm pretty sure, actually, that this isn't necessarily even the right strategy.

Despite the widely adopted belief, quite a number of Floridian Cubans aren't pro-Republican or anti-Cuba. I should know, I lived in Florida for 23 years. (Of course, that's anecdotal evidence, so it's useless except as a context-provider.)

My problem with this "strategy to win Florida" is that I don't think it's just strategy - both parties have vested interests (read: $$$) in keeping the status quo regarding policies toward Cuba.

The irony of all this will be when America eventually asks Cuba for some kind of assistance in the future. It may take a long time, but given our imminent collapse, we'll probably be begging all kinds of countries we've wronged for help. Heck, Castro's already offered free, no-strings-attached medical care to the poor in this country.

What will shame us will be those countries' willingness to help Americans after all our government has done to them in our names.

Maybe then this country will wake up.

[IndianaGreen]

31. So the solution is for Edwards to embrace the Miami terrorists?

He might as well kiss the ass of Hamas! The Miami-based Cuban terrorist groups are no different from Hamas and Al-Qaeda.

This is nothing more that moral bankruptcy by Edwards for the sake of a few anti-Castro votes that he won't get anyway!

Has Edwards ever been overseas? Has he ever met someone that was not an American?

[goclark]

40. Keep our eye on the prize!

I agree with you. We have got to win Florida by any ;ega; means necessary.

Castro has been taking care of Castro for all these years.
He took care of himself through these Bushites and he will take care of himself with Kerry Edwards.

If we reject what Edwards said we will not even have won the battle about Cuba and we sure will not win THE PRIZE -- Regime change, regime change, regime change in November!

[IndianaGreen]

112. Regime change means a change in policy

not a repackaging of the Bush policies towards Cuba, which were only marginally worse than Clinton's.

We want to win, but what do we win if we continue the aggression against Cuba, the occupation of Iraq, and the pandering of Israel? We win NOTHING!

[GreenArrow]

11. yeah

they did.

[PeaceProgProsp]

12. It's funny that Castro and Cubans probably don't mind

when people like Clinton, Kerry and Edwards talk like this (because they know they're better off if candidates like them win FL) but American voters suddenly become hollier than thou.

[tlcandie]

15. Why do some here have to start slinging negatives toward their

fellow dems when we don't all agree? Why can't people have principles and agree to disagree without talking down or calling names or adding adjectives to their statements?

To me it is about MY principles. Am I happy about this? NO! Am I calling them names or putting them down? NO! I stated my position w/o being negative.

Again, another negative to the start of what could have been a good day.

[PeaceProgProsp]

21. I think that criticizing smart campaigning strategy is a form

of "slinging negatives towards...fellow dems."

If you're willing to agree to disagree with Kerry and Edwards and not voice public dissatisfation with their smart campaigning, then I will agree to disagree with you privately. But you voiced your criticism, so I'm voicing my disagreement with you. And I'm not calling you any names. I'm stating a dynamic in a plain laguage: Clinton did this too, and won, and Cubans were probably very happy that Clinton was able to win, and they understand that winning FL is part of a winning strategy, and they understand the political realities in FL.

M'kay?

[tlcandie]

24. I think you may have this a bit wrong...

When someone such as myself states something.. such as *heavy sigh* this is what I was trying to say without creating friction between fellow dems:

I'm not happy about this and I would really rather not be reminded of things such as this day in and day out because it really bothers me. I'm doing the best I can to hold on to the wisdom of ABB and to the positives regarding Kerry/Edwards. I'm working really hard on not letting all the conservative/rightwing (whatever) stuff that OUR BOYS keep dishing out not seep in to totally discourage me. How many more reminders do I have to hear? Why does it have to be like this? Why can't we really make honest changes that WILL make a difference? Why can't we take a DIFFERENT road?

Anyway, you get the picture of just some of the stuff that I fight and possibly others when stuff like this keeps slapping us in the face.

[EST]

34. Hang in

Yes, our candidates may be fatally flawed, but they just may be electable. At least that's the mantra I have to keep chanting to avoid going absolutely nuts! It is much easier to ride a horse in the direction he's going.

[PeaceProgProsp]

48. Do you REALLY think they're fatally flawed?

[EST]

101. Well...

I said may be fatally flawed, but I do pause when I hear JFK promise unconditional fealty to Israel and JE promise a continuing viciousness to Castro when it strikes me that perhaps there could be a more productive policy in either case. Opening up to Cuba could smother the place with love and exposure to other ideas and go much further in re-orienting attitudes than just blindly continuing the present notions.
From what I've learned on FSTV the problems in Arab-Israeli relations are not totally one-sided. I watched John Kerry move toward Howard Dean in the primaries and now toward the nasty side to look better to moderate Bushits. I am concerned.

[Zhade]

114. I second your concern.

And, if anything, Edwards pisses me off even more.

[EST]

145. I can also understand

that both Kerry and Edwards are under enormous pressure to take sides on every issue and to define themselves without allowing anyone to think that difficult issues require thought and the only thing that probably won't change is you are most likely not as smart today as you are going to be tomorrow. By the way, thanks to all. I love being surrounded by people who can think.

[Zhade]

147. Hey, we welcome intelligent conversation!

So welcome to DU!

[PeaceProgProsp]

47. Republicans win by playing as a team.

It's not an awful thing to save the heavy sighs for after November. If you wait, you might not be sighing about losing.

In fact, I'd much rather sigh about Cuba policy than about losing elections.

[Zhade]

76. That's a chilling statement.

If you're willing to agree to disagree with Kerry and Edwards and not voice public dissatisfation with their smart campaigning, then I will agree to disagree with you privately.

Is dissent now seen as anti-American by progressives, even?

Clinton did this too, and won, and Cubans were probably very happy that Clinton was able to win, and they understand that winning FL is part of a winning strategy, and they understand the political realities in FL.

Can you provide concrete evidence that Clinton won Florida specifically by accommodating the rightwing Cuban "exiles"? That his win of that state hinged on such groups?

As far as how you think Cubans may have felt - that's hardly evidential, and thus not really a credible argument.

Of course winning Florida is part of a winning strategy. Logically, winning any state is part of a winning strategy. However, I truly wonder how essential to the political realities in Florida maintaining the rightwing anti-Castro stance really is.

Could it be possible that this is the line pushed by the very people it services - namely CANF and their ilk? Perhaps the reality is that these rightwing groups do not truly represent the majority opinion of their fellow Cubans in Florida, but these groups have so much money and muscle that they have simply assumed the mantle of representation by force.

Given the history of violence against those who do not agree with the "exiles" stance (and I'm not even talking about PRO-Castro people, just those who don't agree with the rightwingers), I'd be inclined to say that's probably the case.

You don't have to bomb and terrorize people into silence when your opinion is shared by the majority of your countrymen.

[Mika]

16. You bet they did. Its an abrogation of our rights!

Sadly political pandering for campaign bucks supersedes our constitutional rights.

---

Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall!

[oneighty]

8. Sad

That a few old and stupid Battista remnants make the many suffer.

180

[Mika]

13. Its not the few Cubans who are responsible

Its the repukes AND our own party that have kept this going on and on for decades.


The majority of Americans want change in this policy, and the majority of Cuban-Americans don't rate Cuba as their #1 priority in politics.

Poll: Americans on Cuban Sanctions
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=770
-
Poll: Cuban-Americans focus is local
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/6269237.htm

[oneighty]

45. I cannot disagree

But I have always felt and still do that when the old time Battista people and their supporters die off this will end. I hope.

180

[Judi Lynn]

46. Some of their offspring are infected, as well as assorted classless

American politicians, like Dan Burton, who receives more of his campaign money from outside Indiana than from within.

They have always attracted real loons, like Tom Delay, Jesse Helms, New Hampshire's Bob Smith (the cretin who took the Miami Gonzalez family on a jet to follow little Elián to the Air Force Base and was told to leave!), Robert Torricelli, and Chris Smith of New Jersey. There are others too numerous and ridiculous to remember.

In the meantime, Florida Representative Lincoln Diaz-Balart (has a brother in the Hosue of Representatives, Mario, as well) is said to envision himself as the next, puff puff, EL PRESIDENTE of Cuba!


His Holiness!

[lottie244]

23. I sure am sorry to hear this. I will vote against Bush but work hard

to get rid of the Kerry/Edwards team if they continue with those policies to which I am ardently opposed.

[tlcandie]

25. lottie244... maybe first we can see if we can change their minds!!!?

:hi: Then we will see what our options are come '08!? I'm just hoping it isn't jebbie who gets pulled out of the rethug hat!

[madrchsod]

27. more of the same

from the pandering canidates..each side will suck up to anyone for a buck and a vote..oh well, same old bullshit...

[Mighty Undecided]

28. feeling mightier than ever.

To think the second generation Cubans had broke with their rabid anti-Castro parents...We wouldn't want to get their votes, wouldn't we?

[IndianaGreen]

29. Screw his pandering to the Miami gusanos!

Edwards should travel to Cuba and see for himself the great gains of the Cuban Revolution, and the support it enjoys from the Cuban people, before he goes off mouthing off RW talking points about Cuba to the former Cuban elites in Florida.

What is he going to say next? Return Elian to his crazy Miami uncle?

The self-inflicted ignorance some people have about Cuba rivals that of the Flat Earth Society.

[jmowreader]

35. The FIRST job is to get elected!

And we get elected by not giving Limpballs more things to make up lies about.

If Kerry or Edwards announce they're gonna lift the sanctions, next thing you know fuckin' Hannity will start telling his viewers that John Kerry intends to give Osama bin Laden a green card if we let him steal the election. Ann Coulter will write that Kerry is going to give Hamas a seat on the United Nations Security Council. Every other winger commentator will come up with an equally scurrilous comment.

Check GD for my comments on lifting the embargo

[Mighty Undecided]

38. Yup. Make THEM love you. By being meek. Good idea - always.

A dem specialty. Some day, Faux will love us so much, they'll give up on W. Just you wait!:eyes:

[loftycity]

36. Maybe Edwards should read this. Article by Castro

http://www.counterpunch.com/castro07302004.html

This is good. Interesting.

[Judi Lynn]

42. Wow! Was that EVER a spectacular article, loftycity.

It was worth every moment invested in reading it. What a fine, brilliant mind he has.

It's easy to know he scripted it, too, after you've listened to him speaking extemporaneously, and he's not shy about that! He has thrown himself entirely into the service of his countrymen, AND, unlike Bush, he spent a long time living in circumstances which would have crushed Bush as an actual soldier in the revolution.

This section, among others, from the article has material in it a lot of folks haven't taken the time to find out about, yet:

The overwhelming majority of those who are members of or run that terrorist mob--which decided no less a thing than the election of the President of the United States--are former Batista supporters and their descendents; or they are groups who for years have been involved in the terrorist actions, pirate attacks, assassination plots against Cuban revolutionary leaders and all kinds of armed aggressions against our country; or they were big landowners and relatives of the upper middle classes who were affected by revolutionary laws and who previously had all kinds of privileges and many of whom have amassed huge fortunes and have gained influence in important power circles in the US governments.

Over 90 percent of those who have emigrated from Cuba since the triumph of the revolution have done so through normal channels and for economic reasons, their leaving authorized by the Revolution that placed no obstacles. But Cuban immigrants were forced to go under the Caudine Forks of that powerful mafia whose influence they could not easily ignore.

Unlike many millions of Latin Americans, including Haitians and other Caribbeans, that emigrate legally and illegally to the United States and are called immigrants, Cubans, with no exception whatsoever, are called exiles.

On the other hand, the absurd Cuban Adjustment Act has caused the loss of countless Cuban lives by rewarding and encouraging illegal emigration and giving Cubans extraordinary privileges that are not granted to citizens of any other country in the world.
(snip/...)

Thanks a ton for bring real material here to aid the general uplifting and education of a bunch of us who are definitely in the learning mode on this subject.

I hail you!

[loftycity]

199. Thanks JudiLyn!

[JackDragna]

37. What a crock..

..particularly considering the Miami Cubans are terrorists themselves, having a hand in downing a Cuban airliner, smuggling drugs and weapons for the Contras and supporting the right-wing "dirty wars" in South America during the 60's and 70's. After all the tepid speechmaking during the convention, I hope it's finally becoming clear to people here just how hard our candidates are trying to be Republican-lite.

[Q]

39. "can't run, can't hide...Hayzeus...this is Bush* macho rhetoric...

...and this stinky campaign advice brought to you by the DLC.

- And why the hell be 'tough' on Castro? He's not a threat to anyone.

- Pretty soon...you won't be able to tell the difference between the Bush*/Kerry campaigns.

[dolstein]

50. I get the impression that many DUers would prefer to live in Cuba

Which is quite sad. Even if you believe, as I do, that US policy towards Cuba was proven to be singularly ineffective, I can't understand all the admiration and affection being expressed towards Fidel Castro.

[IndianaGreen]

146. Free universal health care

Cubans don't dump the poor elderly in nursing homes to slowly die, or give the poor the minimal care that Americans without insurance get in our glorious country. And Cuba is a poor country under attack by the US.

America has the best health care system for those that can afford it, which is fewer and fewer of us every year.

You bet, I'll take Cuba over this self-absorbed, self-indulgent country anyday.

[Judi Lynn]

52. Oh, they're everywhere! Commies, I tell ya! Run for it!

Time to get this thing straightened out, by God, rat now!



Tree-hugging Castro-humpers! Anyone who doesn't agree with me, by god, isn't patriotic. I'm calling Joe McCarthy.

[tlcandie]

84. LoL JudiLyn..!!!

Let's see the last time I did something such as this I was accused of something like a drama queen or hysterical or something!

Ahhh to have a humor!!! :bounce: :hug: :hi:

Those of us who aren't too adept at stating facts or making valid points can always count on you and a few others to come to our aid!!

THANKS!!! :loveya:

[Judi Lynn]

90. Jeez, THANKS! You may have already been here, but there's a point

you can reach in which you wonder if you're speaking the same language, and what it takes to get people encouraged to move their fat asses and do the belabored and bedraggled posters here a favor, to take time out, and DO SOME GODDAMED READING!

Oh, wow! It's hard trying to do it for them, isn't it?

I know what it's like to start out clueless and to believe exactly as I did when I was 8 years old. I'm sure you remember, too.

In our cases, we started recognizing there were things we actually DIDN'T know, and we started taking measures to get informed. That's a big time-saver, in the long run, isn't it?

Appreciate your kind message enormously. I also love a chance to dive into Google images to snuffle around for funny photos when it seems words fail.

[tlcandie]

97. JudiLyn... you've hit the nail on the head YEt again!

In the early 90s I went to Washington state as a far right winged religious nut. After some time there everything I ever believed true about religion and spirit was knocked out from under me BIG TIME!

My eyes opened and I found out that I was curious again and that no one person or group knows everything! Also, it's good to be curious and not accepting of norms, but to question the hell out of what is going on!

Most always I have some knowledge (enough to be dangerous? LoL) and a lot of heart in what I speak about. I can't remove the emotional part, the parts that tug at my heart and conscious, enough to be as effective as you and the others who are so adept here in DU! I'm not sure that I want to be, but I do try to work at it!

I didn't even vote until 2000 and I'm 48 years of age now. It was the FIRST time for me, but I knew it was important.

The truths you all search out and present here are priceless and you have no idea the rewards you secretly reap for your willingness and truthfulness to speak out against norms and arguments that are loaded with quicksand!

Again, thanks and :hugs:

[Manix]

55. Castro is as much a threat to the US as Saddam was......zero.

[Judi Lynn]

57. Looks as if we missed all the excitement.

08/02/2004

Crowds Protest For And Against The Bush Administration's Cuba Policy

MIAMI -- Crowds of people protested the Bush administrations Cuba policy in South Florida, Monday Morning.

Hundreds of people came in opposition to the new travel restrictions. People lined up in front of the office of Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen.

A smaller crowd that favored the new measures gathered across the street.

Some protesters engaged in screaming matches with passing drivers.
(snip)

http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/C49365/

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Here's an article someone might find worth reading, concerning the Miami "exile" extremists position on U.S. law vs. their own interests when Elián was being held hostage in Miami. I just found it:

Uncivil Disobedience
Elián González's Miami relatives have more in common with Orval Faubus than they do with Martin Luther King Jr.
By David Greenberg

With a showdown looming, Miami's "Eliánistas" have vowed a "civil disobedience" campaign to prevent the return of 6-year-old Elián González to Cuba. By invoking the sacralized language of Martin Luther King Jr. and the civil rights movement to describe their impending face-off with the government, the Eliánistas imply they're acting from a sense of conscience and in a noble tradition. To their critics, though, the civil disobedience call is just a cynical ploy.

When is "civil disobedience" honorable, and when is it a cover for self-serving lawlessness?
(snip)

On two other counts—nonviolence and willingness to accept punishment—the Eliánistas don't seem to be honoring the tradition of King, although to be fair they haven't been put to the test. Certainly some of their rhetoric—such as Miami-Dade County Mayor Alex Penelas' suggestion (since retracted) that his police won't enforce the law—has been menacing, apparently meant to scare the federal government into backing off (a game of chicken) rather than to win sympathy by passive surrender in the face of injustice (à la King). It's hard to imagine that if faced with G-men, the Miamians would crumple to the pavement in the fetal position, let alone be willing to endure the savage beatings visited on the civil rights protesters.

On the final consideration—the purpose of their disobedience—the Miamians come up woefully short. Unlike the soldiers of the civil rights movement, they aren't trying to redress a systemic problem. They aren't arguing that the country's immigration policies are fundamentally unfair. They just object that the laws must apply to Elián as they do to everyone else. They're arguing for an exemption from the law, not an improvement of it in accordance with principles of justice. And this makes their appropriation of the term civil disobedience seem cynical.

A better parallel to
the Miamians than King might be the white Southerners who engaged in "massive resistance" to federal laws in order to thwart integration. During the civil rights years, Southern defenders of Jim Crow vowed they would not comply with Supreme Court rulings or federal executive orders. Govs. Orval Faubus of Arkansas and George Wallace of Alabama won followings by threatening to defy federal law enforcement officials to protect white supremacy—a tradition in which Mayor Penelas seemed to be inadvertently placing himself before retracting his fighting words. In the end, the Dixie governors knuckled under to the feds, but their shows of resistance stoked Southern pride.
(snip/...)

http://slate.msn.com/id/79524/






Elián before he was snatched and put in the defective boat.

[geek tragedy]

58. They are despicable--it makes pro-Israel pandering almost seem

benign by comparison.

[Judi Lynn]

59. They have some unpleasant habits.

Maybe you remember their city-wide temper tantrum when the INS agents hada to go in to retrieve the kid after the uncle Lázaro Gonzalez said he wasn't going to surrender him following the court order.



Dan Hulshizer / Associated Press
A woman is led away from the Miami home of Elian Gonzalez's relatives by private security guards after she arrived with a sign supporting the government's seizure Saturday of the young Cuban castaway and reunification with his father.

Little Havana
Miami Cubans regroup; protest planned Tuesday
Demonstration organizers ask supporters to stay home from work, paralyze the city
By Scott Wilson and April Witt / Washington Post

MIAMI -- A night of small fires and vandalism gave way to a relatively quiet Easter on the streets of Little Havana as an angry Cuban-American community regrouped for a work stoppage Tuesday and more demonstrations to protest the seizure of Elian Gonzalez.

A day after federal agents spirited the 6-year-old boy to a reunion with his father at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland, the armed raid was condemned on Spanish-language radio broadcasts and in small, vocal demonstrations as a human rights violation worthy of Cuba's Fidel Castro.

About 30 community groups have asked Cuban Americans not to go to work or open businesses Tuesday and to again take to the streets to protest the raid and demand that Elian not be taken to Cuba before an appeals court in Atlanta rules on his political asylum petition.

"We're going to paralyze the city -- the airports, the streets, everything," said Enrique Rubio, a retired engineer who arrived from Cuba 40 years ago.
(snip/...)

http://www.detnews.com/2000/nation/0004/24/a05-42430.htm

More photos:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/594712.stm

[Crunchy Frog]

205. I remember them

burning American flags in the streets of Miami. I thought it was interesting how this incident of flag burning didn't seem to bother the people who usually pitch an absolute fit over it. It seems that flag burning is OK when done by Cuban exiles whom our country has been good enought to take in.

I only saw the flag burning a couple of times on TV before they stopped showing it. They apparently didn't want to show anything that made the Miami Cubans look too bad.

[Zhade]

121. Penelas is a disgrace. I hope his ass is handed to him someday.

He betrayed Gore, and by extension this nation.

[Judi Lynn]

63. Incoming new developement in Edward's position!

Looks as if he's offering to give BACK the Cuban-American right to travel back and forth to Cuba! New article from this afternoon:

August 3, 2004 E-mail story Print


THE NATION
Edwards, in Florida, Voices Support for Easing Limits on Travel to Cuba

By James Rainey, Times Staff Writer


ORLANDO, Fla. — Democratic vice presidential nominee Sen. John Edwards on Monday supported an easing of restrictions on travel to Cuba, a policy he said would help spur political change in that nation and that his spokesman predicted would win votes in Florida's crucial Cuban American community.

In comments to two local television reporters here, Edwards said he and Sen. John F. Kerry, the Democratic presidential nominee, would reverse a Bush administration policy that limits Cuban Americans to one visit with their relatives in Cuba every three years.

The Democratic policy would allow annual travel to Cuba and permit additional trips in special cases, such as visiting an ailing relative. It would also restore a previous policy allowing Cuban Americans to send money to their families on the island, a practice President Bush banned in a crackdown meant to pressure Fidel Castro's government.
(snip/...)

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-na-edwards3aug03,1,584448.story?coll=la-news-politics-national
(Free registration required)

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This won't do anything for the majority of Americans who believe we should normalize relations with Cuba and drop the embargo, but it's sure going to make things a lot better for the separated families in Florida, New Jersey, New York, California, their relatives in Cuba!

One step at a time, presumably. It's better than a kick in the head.

[Freddie Stubbs]

65. This is not a new development, it has been Kerry's position for weeks

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/columnists/andres_oppenheimer/8848591.htm

[Judi Lynn]

69. Thanks! I

It took a while to locate the one sentence I could accept:

Kerry added that he would try to ''open possibilities'' toward change through greater ''face-to-face contacts'' between U.S. travelers and Cubans.
(snip)

It's better than being boiled in oil.

By the way, the author of the piece is extremely right-wing nutty, and a pompous wreck of a person. He's beloved in Miami by the right-wing idealogues there.

Don't know that you're aware of it, but the old publisher of the Miami Herald, David Lawrence, was ultimately driven out of his job by the late Jorge Mas Canosa, the Cuban "exile" "godfather" who controlled the Cuban "exile" community, unfortunately in Miami, as well as U.S. politicians. Please see the following:

May/June 1992 | Contents
TRYING TO SET
THE AGENDA IN MIAMI

Bashing the Herald is only part of Jose Mas Canosa's strategy

by Anne-Marie O'Connor
O'Connor, who is based in Miami, is Latin America and Caribbean correspondent for Cox Newspapers.
The Miami Herald usually takes and assumes the same positions as the Cuban government. But we must confess that they were once more discreet about it. Lately the distance between The Miami Herald and Fidel Castro has narrowed considerably. . . . Why must we consent to The Miami Herald and ElNuevo Herald continuing a destructive campaign full of hatred for the Cuban xile, when ultimately they live and eat, economically speaking, on our support?

Jorge Mas Canosa, chairman of the Miami-based Cuban American National Foundation, in a local radio broadcast, aired on January 21 and printed in full in El Diario las Americas.

The revelation that The Miami Herald and its Spanish-language counterpart, El Nuevo Herald, were in bed with Cuban leader Fidel Castro must have confounded the editors of the Cuban Communist party organ, Granma, since the Havana daily has repeatedly portrayed them as right-wing tools of the eternal CIA campaign against the thirty-three-year-old revolution.

Anywhere else, Mas Canosa's remarks might have been ignored. In the darker recesses of Miami's exile community, however, his words were clearly a call to arms. Within days Herald publisher David Lawrence, Jr., and two top editors received death threats. Anonymous callers phoned in bomb threats and Herald vending machines were jammed with gum and smeared with feces. Mas Canosa's Cuban American National Foundation quickly denied responsibility and condemned the hijinks, but Mas's words were highly inflammatory in a city where public red-baiting has served as a prelude to bombings and, in past years, murder.
(snip/...)

http://archives.cjr.org/year/92/3/miami.asp

Now the Miami Herald's controlled by Alberto Ibarguen, a Cuban "exile," and they fired their old moderate columnist of many, many years, Max Castro, and brought in a right-wing looney tune who ONLY writes in Spanish, and Andres Oppenheimer is in columnist heaven, and all is well at the Herald. Great.

[Freddie Stubbs]

71. Jorge Mas Canosa certainly did get around

[Judi Lynn]

80. Isn't THAT a slap in the face?

My gosh!

What a creep.

Did you ever hear his boast that his "people" owned Miami? I heard it discussed years ago from someone who lives in South Florida who was wildly hacked off about it. It was divulged in a newpaper interview:

I had but one extended conversation with Jorge Mas Canosa, in the summer of 1994, shortly after the Cuban exile leader seemed to reveal a shocking contempt for native-born Americans in an article in the Spanish newspaper El Pais.

The reporter had asked if the Americans would ''take over'' Cuba after Fidel Castro's fall. Mas Canosa reportedly replied, ''That's bull----. They haven't even been able to take over Miami. If we kicked them out of here, how could they possibly take over our own country?''
(snip/...)

http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/caricature112497.html

I'll see your Clinton, and raise you a Kissinger! (He's the hog under the clock.)

[0007]

72. Oh fuck not again,

Please study the situation before making dumb remarks John.

[Judi Lynn]

83. Don't make me pull the link on retired U.S. officers visiting Cuba on you!

February 13, 1996

Assessment on Cuba

A group of senior retired U.S. military and diplomatic officials have returned from a five day tour of Cuba (February 5-9) with observations of a nation slowly liberalizing its political and economic structures at the same time their shrinking military forces are assuming a new role.

Led by Rear Admiral Eugene Carroll, U.S. Navy (Ret.), now Deputy Director of the Center for Defense Information, and Ambassador Robert White, Director of the Center for International Policy, formerly U.S. Ambassador to El Salvador and Paraguay, the group visited a number of military facilities as well as the partially completed nuclear power plant at Juragua near Cienfuegos, Cuba. Other members were Major General Edward Atkeson, U.S. Army (Ret); Brigadier General William Lanagan, U.S. Marine Corps (Ret); Vice Admiral Ralph Weymouth, U.S. Navy (Ret); and Jack Mendelsohn, a retired foreign service officer, now Deputy Director of the Arms Control Association.

Hosted by the Chief of Staff of the Cuban military forces, General Rosales del Toro, the group was given full access to active military bases and schools as well as sites formerly occupied by Soviet forces during the Cold War. A major conclusion is that Cuba is finally beginning to recover from the severe dislocations suffered when the Soviet Union suddenly withdrew its military and economic support in 1992. This recovery has been aided by considerable relaxation of previous restrictions on private enterprise within Cuba and by inviting foreign investors to participate in joint economic ventures, particularly in tourism and mining. Farmers' markets are flourishing and small family businesses are springing up everywhere.

The Cuban military budget is now down to $600,000,000 annually (less than the U.S. spends in one day) and numbers approximately 150,000 active troops (10% of U.S. strength). More importantly, about 60,000 of these troops are young conscripts who are assigned to Youth Army units primarily engaged in running farms and construction tasks. Overall, the Army now produces between 20 and 25% of Cuban food supplies. The Army is actively engaged through GAVIOTA, the official Cuban tourist agency, in building hotels.
(snip)

Admiral Carroll summed up the group's observations: "There is nothing going on in Cuba today which poses any threat to the security interests of the United States in military, political or nuclear terms. General Rosales del Toro stressed over and over again that Cuba stands ready to discuss any and all issues with United States representatives on the basis of mutual interests and mutual respect. He invited active members of the U.S. military to come to Cuba for such discussions."
(snip/...)http://www.cdi.org/issues/cuba/cubatrip.html

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Looks to me as if we're going backwards here!

[lebkuchen]

93. Bush is your boogieman, John.

Key in on him, to hell with Castro, whose country, incidentally, has something like a 99 percent LITERACY rate. If you want to talk Castro, compare his country's reading levels with those of Texas.

Otherwise, shut the hell up about Castro (and Chavez!).

[EST]

140. Phew!

What an instructive afternoon!

[PATRICK]

110. Democratic Party stance on Cuba

This is not the Kennedy days when covert assassination attempts were the kinder gentler alternative to a new bay of Pigs operation. This is not what the the GOP has successfully branded as the Carter sucker weakness or some socialist love fest with the Dems gushing over lefty Latins(that never happened but it is the subtext of the perception).

So what it is about besides politics...

Have to think a minute... Consistent policy with a message to Castro and Chavez that while the buffoonish, ineffective dirty stuff will be stopped, a stronger American policy will emerge than Carter's, determined to be more effective at the higher goals than Bush.

What it means is that both Cuba and Venezuela(and us!) will be making transitions to democracy(when not threatened by fascism or CIA coups) under strong pressure from a fair US government that maybe- for once- means what it says with a straight face. In other words, get American policy back on the straight and narrow, not embarrassing retreat.

We hope and trust, but with Kerry and Edwards that is possible. Under Bush no one wins except Bush and the Bush few. Promises broken, disaster, tyranny. The worst of the worst and probably even a revival of guerrilla war and alternative socialist factions, a continuation of the devastation of Latin America and its trade situation with them fighting back or going under. Bush needs Castro like boogie men and chaos or entropic decay. Democrats bring democratic progress.

But it will likely not be a dream. The same signal is being sent to Iraq and terrorists so that there will be no retreat leading to a rout and worse chaos, an irresponsible debacle that will be as two-edged and unresolved as Vietnam.

The worst thing that can be said is about associating with the exiles' most repugnant leaders, who are are as much a problem as Bush is to really resolving anything. That makes only minimal political sense and is clouds over confidence in what the Kerry team will actually do beyond the rhetoric.

[IndianaGreen]

136. Venezuela is democratic

The problem with Venezuela is that horrible man Chavez is diverting oil profits to the workers and peasants at the expense of the elites.

This is why Kerry attacked Chavez!

[Freddie Stubbs]

198. Chavez is selling lots of oil ot Cuba at below-market prices

Cut off the oil supply, and Castro is in trouble. Castro had to implement several economic reforms after the Soviet Union collapsed and was no longer able to prop him up by providing cheap oil.

[Mika]

200. So? Ven is doing so with many other Caribbean nations.

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:k07eiV2fg_QJ:http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040714/ap_on_bi_ge/venezuela_caribbean_oil_1+venezuela%20+oil%20+caribbean&hl=en&start=1&ie=UTF-8

CARACAS, Venezuela - Venezuela and 14 Caribbean countries will meet in August to discuss the creation of a new company which will sell oil at cheaper prices in the region, Venezuela's Energy Minister said.

[adamrsilva]

191. Castro was willing to sacrifice the lives of every Cuban in a

nuclear war between America and the Soviet Union. It is just stupid to believe he is anything less than insane.

[Mighty Undecided]

192. Gassed his own people, did he? ATTACK!!!!!!!

[Mika]

193. Does Cuba have nukes now? Does the USA?

Cuba 2004 = no nukes

USA 2004 = unknown gigatons of nukes at the ready (w/the "button" under the thumb of a fanatical religious megalomaniac)



Who's insane?

[IndianaGreen]

194. The US overreacted to Soviet missiles in Cuba

while the Soviet Union exhibited tremendous restraint at being surrounded by an atomic curtain of nuclear-tipped missiles that the US had deployed in bordering countries such as Turkey and the UK.

It was the US that wanted an atomic monopoly in order to blackmail the post-WWII world, this is why our plutonium factory at Oak Ridge was build during WWII to manufacture tens of thousands warheads.

Luckily for the world, the US monopoly on the atomic bomb was short-lived.

[geek tragedy]

197. Bordering countries such as the UK?

Baloney. The placement of nukes that close to the US was a clear provocation.

Castro was no less sane than the US administration and Soviet junta, though.

[rman]

204. Where do we get information about Cuba and Castro?

From the mainstream media.

The same media that spreads lies about Kerry and Edwards, the same media that helps spread the government's lies about Iraq WMD's.
The same media that will villify any democratic government in a 3rd world nation that opposes globalization(*, the same media that ignores the attrocities in 3rd world dictatorships that cooperate with globalization. The same media that isn't picking up the Sibel Edmonds story, doesn't report about the consequences of Bush's "No child left behind" program, doesn't report the real consquences of Bush's "Clean air act". Etcetera, etcetera.

The same media that is owned by the corporations who benefit from the lies that those media spread.

So how reliable is the information we get about Cuba and Castro?


www.thecorporation.com
www.orwellrollsinhisgrave.com
www.chavezthefilm.com


*) globalization = privitisation and deregulation on a global scale, where more is obviousely better, so the aim is to privitize and deregulate everything.