(Federal) Judge Blocks Colo. Pledge of Allegiance

[DUreader]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-3032872,00.html


DENVER (AP) - A federal judge Friday blocked a
Colorado law requiring public school students and
teachers to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, calling
the law discriminatory and divisive.

In issuing a temporary injunction, U.S. District
Judge Lewis Babcock said the law discriminates
against teachers by allowing students to opt out
with a note from their parents. Teachers cannot
opt out.

The judge also said the law pits students who
choose to say the pledge against those who do
not, and students against teachers.

``What is instructional about that?'' Babcock
asked. ``You can't compel a citizen of the United
States to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.''

[wtmusic]

1. "With liberty and justice for all"

I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to say that now either. It's a fucking lie.

[DeathvadeR]

25. should read.....

With Liberty and Justice for Callcasions*

*restrictions apply

[bluestateguy]

2. TX has similar law now

Passed last spring. I guess it will be affected by this ruling.

Imagine the problems if one student and/or his parents in a Bush loving place like Collin County (suburban Dallas)who chose not to recite the pledge was threatened and subjected to threats and intimidation by teachers, students and parents. Would the school districts and local officials protect them?

[Wwagsthedog]

4. Doesn't the Texas law require........

..... a pledge of allegiance to both the US & the state of Texas?

[Trek234]

7. Yes it does

I'm in high school right now in TX and apparently my school is not (yet?) following this law. School started this week. There are no Texas flags, nor did we pledge allegiance or have a moment of silence.

[EV1Ltimm]

26. back when i started high school in mesquite...

there weren't any flags in the classroom and we didn't have to recite the pledge... WAY back in 94

but it was odd that we didn't recite it, considering there were all kinds of other anti-free-will, think-our-way rules going on at the time in the MISD.
1. you couldn't wear shorts
2. any rock band t-shirts had to be turned inside out
3. no sideburns past the earlobes
4. no facial hair
5. no piercings for boys
6. boys hair couldn't extend past their earlobes
7. any religious clothing/jewelry that wasn't christian was confiscated etc etc.

I used to get picked on all the time for being an atheist, but the people who did it weren't particularly motivated to put american flags all over their clothing and means of transportation at that time. I guess the fundies hadn't put patriotism and piety hand-in-hand yet.

[LEFTofLEFT]

3. And the dark clouds part.

We need more of this kind of thing.

We must fight the rightwing monsters as if the future is at stake.

IT IS !!!

[otohara]

5. So Happy - I Hate This

I was ready to give my son a letter excusing him, if he didn't want to pleadge to this flag and this time in our history it. Not to mention the whole "under God" bizzness.

[jiacinto]

6. Why are people hostile to the plege of allegiance?

I just don't understand the hostility toward this. I don't see anything wrong with pledging our allegiance to America. Why does it offend people?

It is issues like that empower the right. Why is that some on the far left must go against the values an overwhelming majority of Americas, over 85% probably, support and cherish?

[bluestateguy]

8. Anybody can say the pledge who wants to

I have no problem with that. But a classroom full of children will be an inherently coercive environment. The fact that a parents can excuse their child in writing is meaningless if that child will feel coerced by a jingoistic, conformist community. I also worry about children who will be threatened or intimidated by other children and teachers if they choose not to participate. I could even see school districts in ultra-conservative parts of the US looking the other way at such harassment. These are similar arguments that were made in opposition to "voluntary" school prayer in the 1960's. It was deemed inherently coercive, as are the pledge of allegience laws in Colorado and Texas.

[jiacinto]

9. I disagree

I just see a very small minority who just resents mainstream values tryint get rid of something that Americans consider to be key in respecting this country.

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

12. If forcing children to

recite patriotic mantras under the threat of suspension, not to mention harassment by their classmates, is key in respecting your country, I'm glad I'm not from the same country as you.

[Heddi]

17. People have a problem because it's MANDATORY

Yes, the pledge is a great thing for SOME people--but not for all. It should not be FORCED or MANDATED

[arcane1]

19. as a child, I recall hearing the adults criticizing the USSR...

for requiring their citizens to recite loyalty oaths under threat of legal punishment

liking the pledge, and being forced to recite it, are two different things...

and like another poster said, the pledge hasn't been around forever, and we did just fine before it. Why legally force the children to say it? It changes nothing...

[PurityOfEssence]

21. godgodgodgodgodgodgod, that's what!

As modified, with "under god" in it, it is an endorsement of religion. It is thus illegal. This has absolutely nothing to do with patriotism, it has to do with cowardly, domineering exremists who demand that their guess of the existence of a "god" be defined as true with full dispatch and forced into our every waking moment by the leverage of government.

We're talking about forcing kindergarteners to signing off on the concept of god. That's intrusive.

If that's not enough for you, it is an example of the elitism of established religion. If you are requiring people to acknowledge a concept that may be disgusting or alien to them, you're not nice, and you're telling them that they're inferior and wholly unwelcome should they not knuckle under to the majority.

The price of society is living by the laws.

Do you really not understand this, or are you playing games?

[sujan]

24. you are wrong

It didn't allow the teachers to opt out from reciting the pledge which obviously violated their god given right to free agency.

[CTLawGuy]

28. We disagree with forced patriotism

Forced patriotism is one of the tenets of Fascism, the idea that citizens are property of the state. Fascism is not something that I want to exist in America.

I also have a question? If they pass the flag-desecration amendment, will they arrest people for flying tattered flags on their car antennae? Or will they arrest Presidents who sign American flags at campaign stops? My guess is no, the amendment will only be used to stifle flag desecrations used to dissent against govt.

[Shadder]

10. It's not so much that people are hostile to it,,,,

But the fact that they are being forced to recite it. If one of the things that we value and cherish as Americans is our freedoms, then you need to understand that just as people have the right to burn a flag in protest, we also have the right to not recite the Pledge should we choose not to.

[Trek234]

11. Why must the majortiy force the minority?

I have 3 main issues with it.

1. As an atheist, I don't like the reference to a god.

2. It only further supports republican propaganda. "liberty and justice for all" That is surely what the current republican controlled republic is trying to bring about. <cough>

3. If I did so I would be a liar. If I pledge allegiance the current republic then I would morally be obligated to vote for Bush and any other repubs currently in office. I do NOT pledge allegiance to the current administration. So I would should I say I do? Just because it sounds nice to some people?

edit: I have no problem if others want to recite it. But don't try and force others to do the same.

[Democat]

13. We are supposed to live in a free country

If 99% of the people wanted all blacks to be slaves, would you support that?

If they are trying to force kids to pledge to the state and to god, and the parents don't believe in that, then they have a right to not have their kids forced to do it.

You can't just support something because more than 50% of the people support it. That's not leadership.

America is supposed to be a free country above all.

[paulk]

14. why do people support the pledge of allegiance?

I don't understand why people are in favor of this.

We got along fine as a nation without the pledge, why is it such a big deal now?

Issues like this empower the right because there are way to many Americans willing to think whatever someone else tells them to think.
Also, why do you assume opposition to the pledge comes from the "far left". You're stereotyping.

I oppose the government forcing it's citizen's to pledge the flag because it's Nationalism (another reletively new phenom).

[short bus president]

15. what's the value in it?

Nobody's gonna argue that kids who are forced to pledge allegiance to the red white and blue reich every morning are destined to be better citizens for it, so why try to force it on people? Now that the issue is so divisive, it's more of a "20-second hate" than a loyalty oath, anyway.

[sandnsea]

16. It is the antithesis of what the country is about - FREEDOM

I can't understand what is so damn difficult for so-called Americans to grasp about this. To force somebody to Pledge Allegiance to this country is against everything we stand for. Nobody should be forced to do this, our citizenship is VOLUNTARY. We can stay or go. This whole paranoia about having to have the Pledge in every classroom is much ado about absolutely nothing. If a local school district wants to have a policy about reciting the pledge, a recommendation to teachers, fine. But that's as far as it ought to go. Requirements of teachers or state laws regarding this is insane. This takes away our independence and freedom and replaces it with indoctrination.

Frankly, that's why we've got so many people totally screwed up about the place of God in our government. We stuck 'under God' in the Constitution in the 50's and when the boomers grew up, they naturally thought God was supposed to be stuck everywhere. If we'd had the Pledge of our parents; One Nation, Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice For All; we'd be a VERY different country today.

[WillParkinson]

18. Against the Pledge?

I'm not against it. I am, however, against forcing someone to recite it. The whole "With Liberty and Justice For All" tends to not ring so true. It's a nice tagline but until we actually see it in our elected officials I prefer not to say it.

Oh, and yes, the whole "Under god" thing...won't say that, either.

But, on the other hand, if someone DOES want to say it I say more power to them.

[OldCurmudgeon]

22. you're not pledging allegiance to AMERICA

but to the FLAG. A symbol. "the country for which it stands" is
an afterthought.

And, in fact, the thing one should be pledging is to (protect/defend/support/follow) the Constitution. Look at the oaths for elected officials and the military: they pledge to the Constitution. So should citizens.

Of course, there are those in this country that would have us worship the flag while using the Constitution for toilet paper.

[CO Liberal]

20. A Different Perspective On The Pledge

I'm 50 years old, and was in fourth grade when the Supreme Court ruled we could no longer say prayers in school.

Back then, the prayers amounted to a reading from the Bible, saying the Lord's Prayer in unison, and then standing up to recite the Pledge. Those of us who were Catholic stopped saying the Lord's Prayer after "but deliver us from evil" because the nuns in Sunday School taught us that was the Protestant part of the prayer and it was a sin for a Catholic to say it. And the Jewish kids didn't say it at all. So some of the Protestant kids would make fun of us because we "didn't pray like normal prople". I for one was SO glad when they stopped the prayer completely.

It's the same way with the Pledge. It should not me mandatory, and with this setup they were relying on peer pressure to make it mandatory.

[ninkasi]

23. When my daughter was in high school...

the school tried (and failed) to discipline her for coming to the denfese of another student who refused to recite the Pledge of Alliance. As my daughter rightfully pointed out to the idiot teacher, the student who refused was a Canadian citizen, whose father was working in this country.

Blind obdience to meaningless rules are not something to be proud of. It was just easier for the teacher to rely on rules and regulations, rather than give any thought to the intent behind them. Why should the citizen of another country repeat a pledge to our flag?

I can only imagine the outcry from the hypocrites on the right if the situation were reversed.

[EV1Ltimm]

27. another blow to stalinism.

now if the colorado legistlature would stop being such a bunch of damn homophobes, we might be alright.