Pro-Choice Catholics Told to Confess

[Khephra]

ST. LOUIS -- The archbishop of St. Louis, who has said he would deny Holy Communion to Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry, now says Roman Catholic voters who support abortion rights should go to confession before taking the sacrament.

Archbishop Raymond Burke said Thursday that Catholics cannot vote for candidates or policies in support of abortion and be worthy to receive Communion.

"We always have to remember that it's objectively wrong to vote for a pro-choice politician," Burke told KMOX Radio. "People could be in ignorance of how serious this is. But once they understand and know this and then willingly do it, vote for a pro-choice candidate, then they need to confess that."

His remarks came a week after the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops adopted a statement warning lawmakers at odds with church teaching that they were "cooperating in evil." The statement left it up to each bishop to decide whether to deny Communion. Under church law, bishops adapt Catholic teaching in their own dioceses.

more...............

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-bishop-politics,0,5135381.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines

[trotsky]

1. I suppose pro-death penalty Catholics were told too?

BWAH HA HA HA HA, I crack myself up.

Religious hypocrites.

[Norbert]

50. How about confession for Iraq war monger Catholics

[gatlingforme]

99. I could never understand their position of this, Pro-death penalty

but anti pro-choice.??? I just don't get it. Or how about the death penalty for mentally challenged people. ?? where will they draw teh line???

[JohnKleeb]

2. How old is this Bishop Burke?

My grandmother 77 has been a devout Catholic since she was a girl and is very choice, as are many of my other devout Catholic relatives.

[saigon68]

67. Burke is not very old Thats why he's there

He was appointed because the powers that be--- want this petty little Thug to be in charge for a long time. He totally ignores the anal rapes and other little boy molestations his "BROTHERS" have accomplished over the last 50 years.

He is an example of how a turd floats in a bowl.

He loves the Chimp because the chimpy is a man of God who desires that women and the great unwashed (read lazy minorities) be put in their place.

[pfitz59]

127. Opus Dei, perhaps?

Church is infiltrated with Opus Dei Nazis! Think of Fat Tony Scalia in a robe, uh, er, vestments! Roll back Vatican II! resurrect Torquemada!

[DrWeird]

3. Geez. Who do these guys think they are?

Southern baptists?

(ducks)

[SemperEadem]

4. Yo bishop.. you denying the sacrament to priests who've abused children?

clean up your own mess before worrying about what I'm doing in my life. And I'll take the sacrament whenever I choose to--you don't have to know a damn thing about the condition of my soul--just hand over the wafer, ya papist clown.

[ElectroPrincess]

7. Nahhhh!

There will be many sins I will feel a need to confess to AFTER the election. It feels really weird to sit while seemingly everybody else steps up during Communion. I keep thinking to myself, "Am I the only one who harbors resentments toward some Bishops in my faith?" Not my problem, but NO, I won't confess because I'm pro-life but only through my subdued living personal example, NOT through preaching and/or controlling other people. That includes my child. Every individual must decide their own way.

It's about time for these Bishops to recognize the fact that America is not a *Catholics Only" Country and respect the separation of Church and State.

[DiverDave]

159. I am laughing still

a half hr later, papist clown...haw-haw!

[fortyfeetunder]

185. Amen

I agree with that!

:toast:

[AndyTiedye]

5. Soon They Will Excommunicate All Who Donate to the Democrats

All of the remaining power and influence of the Catholic Church is being mobilized into re-electing Bush and the Republicans.
This has never happened before on a national scale in this country.

[mom cat]

10. Soon they will excommunicate everyone and they will have to close

their doors. A church that promotes Cardinal Law and tries to shame John Kerry does not represent what Jesus taught. It's a shame. when I look at the Berrigan brothers and the dedicated Catholics who have given their lives for peace and love and justice, I just want to cry for the mockery that the hierarchy makes of the gentle loving carpenter.

[cap]

6. time to yank the tax exempt status of the church

eom

[Baltimoreboy]

14. Why? Because they disagree with you?

[cap]

33. because the pro-choice prohibition does not apply to

schwartenegger, pataki, giuliani and other pro-choice, Catholic Republicans.

[Baltimoreboy]

41. And none of them is running for president

If they did and the Church treated them differently, then you would have a complaint.

[cap]

164. this prohibition is against all candidates for all offices and

not just the presidency. Read what the bishops are saying.

[Eloriel]

29. No, no, no, just THIS one

You do NOT want tax exempt status revoked across the board for churches. You absolutely do not.

Why? Because it's the only thing that prevents fundies from totally making their churches into full-time Repug political organizations. Hell, they're close enough as it is. And good folks like Americans United for the Separation of Church and State are constantly fighting exactly such battles to preserve our First Amendment religious freedoms in that regard.

Churches are 501(c)(3) organizations under IRS rules, as are most charities and "educational" organizations like N.O.W., Sierra Club, etc. (The political activities of N.O.W. and Sierra Club and so many others are handled by their associated 501(c)(4) lobbying or 501(c)(5) PACs.) Contributions to most 501(c)(3) are tax deductible; contributions to their other forms are not.

[silverweb]

35. A very good point, Eloriel,

... and one I hadn't considered before. Keeping them tax exempt means keeping them collared to some degree.

I like it.

:hi:

[Tight_rope]

184. I agree with you 100%. YANK THE TAX EXEMPT!

Until we have total separation of Church and State, then all churches should pay taxes.

Just look at how rich these preachers have become, and just as the saying goes, "POOR MEN WANT TO BE RICH AND RICH MEN WANT TO HAVE POWER"! And this comment is reflected throughout the world, especially in the US.

We have people like James Baker, James Falwell and many other so-called religious leaders who are now rich because of donations from the poor and now they want to turn around and not only do they want to tell people how they should live their lives but now they tell them who to vote for.

FUCKEM ALL....FUCKING HYPOCRITES :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[louis c]

8. Before you notice the speck

in your neighbor's eye, remove the log from your own.

I am so sick and tired of this church hierarchy telling me what to believe and how to vote, it makes me literally sick to my stomach.

I've never impregnated a woman, because my method of birth control is spit. I've not counseled any woman to abort or to give birth, because it's none of my business. I am pro-choice, although it is fourth or fifth on my list of priorities in choosing a candidate.

For at least forty years, the men who run the Catholic Church condoned and conspired to conceal one of the worst crimes known to man, pedophilia. They did so while conducting business as a charity and a religion, so they paid no taxes. They committed their sins and crimes by invoking the name of our Savior, Jesus Christ. They should all, including Cardinals and Bishops, be tried and convicted under the RICO act, and while incarcerated, pray for forgiveness so they don't rot in hell for all eternity.

The last thing they should worry about is how I vote or how I think, the hypocrite bastards.

[surfermaw]

9. Something smells in the Catholic Church

Don't you think it a little unusual for the Catholic Church to forget about children and abuse in their church, yet try to keep a man running for president form taking communion,just because he is trying to keep the church out of government as he should.

I think this country should rise up against the abuse that went on in the Catholic Church here in the United States, frankly I wouldn't trust them with my male puppy.

[greatauntoftriplets]

11. In the 30+ years that I have been recovering from a Catholic upbringing

there is so damn much I have not confessed that one more sin won't make a shitload of difference.

On edit: Nothing terribly illegal :smoke: mostly immoral and fattening.

[Baltimoreboy]

15. You left out:

"For these and all my sins I am sincerely sorry."

I always figured that covered everything.

[Kolesar]

12. I should go to confession for the first time in 30 yrs &lecture the priest

I could tell him about 3 1/2 years of Bush horror. If he has time, I will tell him about Reagan and Nixon, too.

[meow2u3]

13. 3 steps to salvation ;)

1. Vote Democratic
2. Go to confession after the election.
3. Receive communion.

:evilgrin:

[leftchick]

16. My two boys were born through the use of IVF!

I thank God every day for them, yet the Catholic church says that is wrong. I now use birth control, yet the Catholic church says it is wrong and some 88% of Catholics admit to using it too.
They are opening a very stinky can-o-worms if they continue to persue this issue...

Looking at little baby Ali who suffered for all three months of his life and died as a result of idiotface* and his crusade is what Jesus taught? The Catholic church needs a reality check NOW!!!

:grr:

[hunter]

26. Reality checks, free delivery...

Go for it! The Catholic Church needs that. They haven't kicked me out yet. Peace be with you.

[Mountainman]

17. For you penance say 10 Hail Marys, 5 Our Fathers and give $100 to

Bush/Cheney 2004.

The Pope also said the Iraq war was wrong. Do the Catholics that support the war get the Holy Sacrement?

[PROGRESSIVE1]

18. Tax the Living Hell out of his Church! If you want to be involved...

in politics then you MUST pay the price!

[Baltimoreboy]

19. Abortion is against the church's teachings

If you defy the teachings, then you go against the church.

That is all they are saying.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

20. Doesn't child molestation go against the Churches Teachings too???

[Baltimoreboy]

24. I'm sure you have a point

But the ad hominem hides it and costs you your credibility.

[GinaMaria]

21. What about the death penalty?

Why not tell Catholics how to vote based on the Church's position on killing people? Seems they only focus on one thing and one thing only when denying communion.

[Baltimoreboy]

25. Innocent life

The whole abortion issue for the church is based on INNOCENT life. The death penalty doesn't have the same status.

Since they are a church and communion is religious, they could mandate that we all wear clown shoes to get communion.

[struggle4progress]

38. Actually the official Catholic position seems to be ...

to respect life from conception to natural death.

The Pope's Statement
While the vast majority of U.S. Catholics support capital punishment, Pope John Paul II has declared the Church's near total opposition to the death penalty. In his encyclical "Evangelium Vitae" (The Gospel of Life) issued March 25, 1995 after four years of consultations with the world's Roman Catholic bishops, John Paul II wrote that execution is only appropriate "in cases of absolute necessity, in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today, however, as a result of steady immprovement in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically nonexistent." Until this encyclical, the death penalty was viewed as sometimes permissible as a means of protecting society.
<snip>
"This is the context in which to place the problem of the death penalty. On this matter there is a growing tendency, both in the Church and in civil society, to demand that it be applied in a very limited way or even that it be abolished completely. The problem must be viewed in the context of a system of penal justice ever more in line with human dignity and thus, in the end, with God's plan for man and society. The primary purpose of the punishment which society inflicts is "to redress the disorder caused by the offence."(46) Public authority must redress the violation of personal and social rights by imposing on the offender an adequate punishment for the crime, as a condition for the offender to regain the exercise of his or her freedom. In this way authority also fulfills the purpose of defending public order and ensuring people's safety, while at the same time offering the offender an incentive and help to change his or her behaviour and be rehabilitated.(47)

It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.

In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: 'If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.'"
<snip>

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/angel/procon/popestate.html

[Baltimoreboy]

42. The official Catholic position

Is what they say it is.

[struggle4progress]

44. Yes. Of course. And I just provided excerpts from a papal encyclical.

That's about as "what they say it is" as it comes, isn't it? What with "papal infallibility" and all?

[Baltimoreboy]

46. Positions do change

Religion is not static. Right now, the higher-ups in the church know this is going on. By allowing it, they are endorsing it.

[struggle4progress]

49. What I quoted above came from the current Pope,

and I'd guess he's unlikely to have changed positions radically since issuing it. Of course, if you have any evidence that JP2 has back-tracked from the anti death penalty views expressed there, I'd be interested to learn about it.

If you need to see the entire text:
http://www.newadvent.org/docs/jp02ev.htm

I've never regarded Catholic politics as simple; although it's clear that the Vatican tends to have more than its share of arch-conservatives, who often win in power struggles, they are nevertheless constrained and usually cannot act immediately. I'd certainly guess that there is a contingent in the Vatican who strongly support some of the political noise we've been hearing, but they may be limited by positions they adopted in their earlier attacks on liberation theology as inappropriately political. In any case, even if the Vatican intended to silence the few outspoken bishops, I believe it would proceed slowly. The Bishops' statement last week, BTW, did also raise (in a single sentence near the end) concerns about misuse of religion for political purposes.

[Baltimoreboy]

52. He's still the pope

And he knows what's happening. Like I said, that's an endorsement.

[struggle4progress]

57. Yes. He's still the Pope. And here's a much more recent statement:

DECLARATION OF THE HOLY SEE TO THE FIRST WORLD CONGRESS ON THE DEATH PENALTY
The Holy See has consistently sought the abolition of the death penalty .... <snip>
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/documents/rc_seg-st_doc_20010621_death-penalty_en.html

This subthread originates in discussion of whether those several Bishops who want to deny communion, based on the abortion issue, should, if they followed church teachings, deny communion, based on other issues, such as the death penalty. It seems to me that, were they to follow the guidance given by JP2, they cannot deny communion based on one issue and not the other.

[Baltimoreboy]

60. "It seems to" you

When you put on the cardinal's hat, let me know.

[struggle4progress]

63. Didn't intend to offend you. eom

[Baltimoreboy]

64. You misunderstand

I am not offended.

There are many people here who are saying the church should do this or that. It ain't their decision. It is up to the church.

I find irony in the fact that I, a pretty piss-poor Catholic, am trying to explain Catholic realities to others.

[struggle4progress]

74. Though a Lutheran, I attended Catholic Church for many years ...

having some sympathy with the long Catholic tradition of progressive social teachings and an attraction to a radical pro-life philosophy, that included antiwar and anti-deathpenalty elements, and because I regard the continuing schisms as something of a scandal, which ecumenism might heal.

So naturally I would like to understand what the Catholic Church is presently up to. Now, being Lutheran (rather than Catholic), I have a protest-ant confidence in my own conscience and also prefer to have some intellectual grasp of the moral teachings. Of course, I cannot instruct the Catholic Church how to proceed -- but I am both concerned and regretful if it adopts a temporal political stance which seems to abandon a long tradition and to damage the Church's transcendency.

[thebigidea]

105. your explanations are pretty piss-poor, yeah

[Baltimoreboy]

107. You must not be Catholic

It's the Catholic Church's belief. And it is up to them to decide dogma. Not people here.

[thebigidea]

154. good thing we have Officer Baltimoreboy of the Dogma Police, eh?

[salin]

106. You are correct that it is the Church's choice/decision

but like everything else - there are consequences to certain decisions - if they violate the nonprofit laws guiding political participation (can't do it - if want the tax status) ... that is part of their decision to make... Do they want the consequences or not? IF not, then they shouldn't get to the point of trying to coerce congregants to vote a particular way. If they believe that they need to do this - then they believe that they no longer need the tax exempt status.

This law wasn't created to hit the Church - it guides ALL non profits. Have worked much of my adult life in the nonprofit sector - we are ALL very aware of what is allowed and not allowed per these laws.

Perhaps your belief that the call for losing tax exempt status if the law is being broken mirrors the whole silly "religious persecution" orwellian move from the religious right - where it is used not when there is persecution - but when there is a block to prevent special exemptions that are exclusive ONLY to them and no other group and to use that exemption to force political change (including THEIR religious doctrine) upon the rest of us. You would seem to claim that ONLY the Catholic Church should get an exemption from nonprofit rules/laws guiding political participation.

[Baltimoreboy]

108. Consequences

The term consequences cuts both ways. If you target the Church, then you will drive many Catholics away from the party.

Other churches have walked the non-profit line before. It is only now, that they do so in a way some here dislike that sanction is called for.

However, no matter how much you complain, their non-profit status will remain intact.

[salin]

112. Who are you kidding?

This isn't new. The Law isn't new. What is new per the Catholic Church - is the call by some to attempt to coerce political behavior.

The call on challenging tax exempt status when the lines of political participation isn't new. Nor is the exercise of the LAW on this point...

You do realize, don't you, that Pat Robertson's Christian Coalition ran afoul of this law - and lost its tax exempt status due to their distribution of highly partisan voter guides... this was a number of years ago.

To prevent further problems they spun the CC into two seperate entities one that is not for profit and one that is not.

Only in your mind (and others who are using the "religious persecution" line to try to impose their religious beliefs through politics on the rest of us) is the Catholic Church the being singled out.

[Baltimoreboy]

113. African-American churches have pushed the limits

And have not been called on it.

You do realize that Catholics vote Democratic by and large. If you are able to pull this off, you will guarantee a Repuglican future.

[salin]

115. I do realize that any group that crosses the line

guiding tax exempt status should do so knowing the consequences. That is not a right/left issue.

[Baltimoreboy]

117. Yes it is

If they were pushing for Democratic candidates or going after Bush or advocating choice, their detractors would be supporting them.

[salin]

120. bullshit.

In nearly three years at DU - I have never seen instances. Either back up your words with examples from real posters... or just admit that you think it is a valuable political tool for Bishops to coerce congregants to vote republican.

Because I have NEVER seen support for the use of NONPROFITS as coercing political votes (and suggesting/implying withholding communion based on voting - is a very high form of coersion... and I can't recall a similar example from the left... havent read of left leaning ministers threatenning their congregations with burning in hell or prevention of going to heaven (the equivalent to excommunication to a Catholic, as I understand it)... if they do not vote a particular way.) Thus your assertion that folks would praise such actions from left leaning religious pulpits... and thus based on your assertion (which is not based on any facts in evidence)... there is religious persecution of the Catholic Church. Since there is no evidence... you instead seem to be claiming that the political coercion from the Altar is appropriate ... and should be protected... even though other tax exempt groups do not have the right to such actions...

[Baltimoreboy]

123. You can't be claiming that black churches are not political

Because that simply isn't true.

[salin]

128. Do you read what I write

Did I claim apolitical? Or did I talk about specific lines (coersion) being crossed.

I have no problem with the Catholic Church urging its parishoners to vote... to participate... nor even for them to consider the Churchs' religious teachings when voting.

I have no problem with any church doing this.

I have a huge problem when the line is crossed which involves extreme coercion using religious threats to force a particular vote. I would have the same problem with any African American church doing the same thing. But I have yet to read of any example of that happening. Can you give me one?

It is YOU that are being inconsistent by making equal very different types of actions. I am very consistent on this point.

[Baltimoreboy]

133. Specific lines

Supporting parties. Supporting issues and supporting candidates.

My comment about churches stands.

Haven't you seen candidates campaigning through black churches? Are you blind to this?

[RetroLounge]

91. Yawn.

More bullshit from the American Taliban...

RL

[Tight_rope]

187. That is such a bullshit statement!

So I guess what you are saying that the can go flip flop flip flop back and forth when it's convenient for them. Today it's abortion, tomorrow is smoking, the next it's drink, gay marriages. Mean while they are robbing the poor blind and fucking their children. The shit just stinks to HIGH HEAVEN.

I don't believe it anyone or anything that tells me that I can't get to my God unless I go through you.

FUCK THE CHRUCH...THEIR ALL A BUNCH OF HYPOCRITES. :puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

[GinaMaria]

51. Prove it

I've never seen any papal edicts that define innocent vs. non-innocent life. That is not the church's stand. I suspect it is yours. Big difference. You can justify your stance on the issues any way you like, but don't pass it off as the church's position.

Your statement is false. The death penalty to the catholic church has exactly the same status in their philosophy. They are however inconsistent in their application of that philosophy. For example, they don't demand that catholics who vote for pro death penalty candidates go to confession before taking communion.

Yes, they can mandate anything they like, but once they start mandating political matters, they should expect that many in this country will more than raise an eyebrow. They should expect that many will rally to recall their tax exempt status. It's their choice. They know what country they are in. They don't get to mandate politics with a tax exempt status. The clown shoes are a good suggestion, actually. They would be an outward display of how the catholic church treats American catholics.

[Baltimoreboy]

53. Sorry, 12 years of Catholic education

It's in there from somewhere, not sure where.

And if you rally against the Catholic Church, you will drive many Catholics into the GOP camp.

[GinaMaria]

65. sorry, 12years of catholic ed too, it's not there!

it's not in there any where. There is no distinction between abortion being an innocent life and a death penalty victim being non innocent life. prove that it is. You should be able to back up your assertions that this is the church's stance with actual documentation.

Most catholics are not gop. they are dems and they are pro birth control, pro choice. Rallying to remove the tax exempt status of a church that wants to make political endorsements would motivate catholics to shut the clergy up. Americans, catholic or otherwise will not run to the repukes because the church wants to violate an important cornerstone in the foundation of our country. It is the catholic church that is driving people away. It's their choice to do so.

[Baltimoreboy]

66. I was indeed taught it

Maybe you weren't.

Catholics have been persecuted in the past by the Klan and others. If one party sets up to do that again, trust me, they will go elsewhere.

[GinaMaria]

68. persecuted? that's over the top

You are comparing taking away tax exempt status to klan activity? really? Let me know when you want to discuss this in realistic terms.

Indeed it was not taught. Life is life is life according catholic teaching. There is no distinction that one is better, holier, more innocent. It's just not there.

The innocent life distinction, is not made by the church. It is frequently made by people who are anti choice and pro death penalty. I don't have a problem with that. If that's what you believe, but don't pass it off as church philosophy when it is not. Hey, but if I'm wrong, feel free to provide a link that proves your statement.

[Baltimoreboy]

78. Persecution is persecution

Going after the church because you don't like their teachings is persecution.

Taxing an organization and taking away millions or billions of dollars sure as hell is persecution.

I think it's been pretty obvious that I haven't been arguing this from a personal standpoint. I am pro-Choice. I also am pro-Church and felt they needed a defender, if it's me.

I can't provide a link to my brain. I know I was taught it. Here's a question, where did you go to school? Perhaps it's a regional difference.

[GinaMaria]

82. this isn't about teachings

It's about endorsing candidates. Breaking the law and losing tax exempt status is not persecution. It's not about what they teach, it's about what they preach about politics. Big difference. There's a line and definite boundary for tax exempt status for church's. If they cross it, they lose tax exempt status. That is not persecution. It's not about beliefs. It's about how they chose to act on those beliefs. it's about behavior.

Taxing an organization that wants to enter into the political arena is fair.

I am pro democracy and feel it needs a defender, if it's me.

There are no regional catholic positions. The church's position on life is the same around the globe. Maybe you have confused a catholic's position with the church's position? I'm not going to argue if you were taught something or not. What I'm arguing is that what you claim to have been taught is not the church's position. If it was, you would be able to provide a link.

[Baltimoreboy]

83. There is only one pro-abortion presidential candidate

Were both pro-abortion and the church took a stand, that would be political. This is not. It is based on teachings.

Taxing a church is unfair. Try it. We will lose millions of die-hard Democrats.

There are indeed teaching conventions. Some dioceses are more conservative. Some more liberal. If you think what is taught in school is identical from Baltimore to San Francisco, you are incorrect.

I am not confusing a personal conviction. These were nuns, brothers and priests. Not lay people.

[GinaMaria]

85. Who is the pro-abortion candidate?

there is a difference between pro abortion and pro choice. Kerry is pro-choice as many catholics are. It doesn't mean that he's pro abortion.

Taxing a church is fair if they want to enter the political arena. The rule wasn't made after they did this. They knew the rule before deciding to go against it. If the rule was made up after, that would be persecution. You have not made the case for persecution.

I never claimed that teachings from dioceses to dioceses is identical and I'm not sure where you would get that idea. Nuns, brothers and priests have personal opinions and convictions. They may believe that there is a distinction between an 'innocent' and 'non- innocent' life and they may have taught you that, but the church does not make that distinction. If it did you would be able to provide proof.

[Baltimoreboy]

86. From the view of the church, that would be Kerry

And if you are against abortion, as they are, there is no difference between pro-Choice and pro-abrortion.

The church has not entered the political arena. It has made a statement based on dogma.

Did you see the catechism reference at the bottom of this thread. Seems I was right about the difference.

[GinaMaria]

88. difference between prochoice and proabortion

Many pro choicers are against abortion, many of them catholics. The proabortion crowd is just as offensive to a prochoicer as an anti choicer is. The pro abortion people say things like, 'all poor single black women who are pregnant should be forced to have an abortion. I don't want to support those kids." Nice huh? And a big difference between someone who says "I wouldn't have one, that's based on my beliefs, but I don't have the right to legislate my beliefs to others"

The catechism reference was what I was asking you for. You do understand that you saying something isn't proof. Unless there is documented proof it is merely opinion. Sad to see that the church took this turn, but it reaffirms my reasons for leaving.

When the church speaks for or against a political candidate it enters the political arena. The same post you refered me to, confirms this. There's a fine line. Care must be taken in our country not to cross it, on either side.

[Baltimoreboy]

94. You see this difference, the Church does not

If you support Choice, you are supporting access to abortion.

I see no need in getting into a semantic game on the point. It's how they see the world. Even if you see it otherwise, you must admit that.

The church is speaking out against abortion. They chose the leading pro-Choice advocate as a target.

[GinaMaria]

130. it's not a semantics game

to catholics. American catholics in general are good Americans and not so good catholics. They respect the law. They respect the line between church and state and most don 't want to legislate their beliefs to others. Most are not the Bob Novak flavor of catholic. Most would not support legislating insurance companies to deny birth control benefits, tubal ligations, vasectomies etc simply based on the church's beliefs. The church is very out of step with the views of American catholics.

The church is speaking out against a candidate. they are violating their tax exempt status, as would southern baptists or mormons or any other religeon if they did the same. The church is not being persecuted. They overstepping the boundary and there are consequences to that. They know that when taking an action such as this.

[Baltimoreboy]

134. It is semantics to the Church

If you support abortion and Kerry does, then that goes against Church teachings.

The Church is speaking out against one of the most well-known Catholics who is openly flouting Church teaching.

[GinaMaria]

137. No. they are coercing people's votes

they are over the line in their tax exempt status. There is no way they can rightfully claim persecution. They know the law.

[Baltimoreboy]

138. I think it's fair to say we disagree on this academic point

Because we both know it won't change.

[GinaMaria]

140. persecution?

Are you saying we disagree on the academic point of whether or not the church is being persecuted? (Persecution: harassment, maltreatment, bullying, singling out, hounding, discrimination)

It (not sure what you mean by it) the behavior? The behavior changes when Americans stand up and say, you've crossed the line. There are limits under a tax exempt status. You either want that status or you don't. You let us know if you want that status by your behavior. Pretty simple.

[Baltimoreboy]

142. It is the whole topic

America is not going to force the Catholic Church to do anything.

[salin]

96. No, it is bias - but it isn't persecution

let's talk real examples of religious persecution...

Pogroms in Russia
Mass extermimation (1/3 of population) in Cambodia
The Inquisition (in cases leading to burning at the stake)
The Holocaust (again, mass extermination.)

Other examples would be burning of churches to prevent exercise of religion. Attempts to "chase"/expulse from country based on religion, or attempts to prevent exercise of citizenship based on religion (can't think of examples of this - but it would fit persecution.)

The use by some in current times to equate todays US climate with political persecution is cynical and exceptionally offensive to the memory of those who have been victim of real persecution. Ironically, as used by the religious right, the claim is used to push for political positions that advocate the exercise of their religion... over others (eg attempts to push a political agenda which enfranchises some religious views with attempts to legislate those - over others' views.) Almost as if the claim is being made in an Orwellian way in order to build the political infrastructure to legislate real religious persecution of others in the future.

[Baltimoreboy]

100. To take away nonprofit status

Could cost more than a billion dollars a year. That will force churches and schools to shut down and impoverish the Church nationwide.

[salin]

103. That still isn't persecution.

It is about laws on the books about political action and nonprofit organizations. NO group that has the status can be directly involved in political action.

The use of the pulpit to attempt to force people to VOTE a particular way - violates the law (and rightly so.)

I would be against the change of status across the board (nationwide) - unless there was a national move to push all churches to use the power of the Altar to attempt to effect political outcomes.

I would, however, agree that individual congregations (or Parishes, in this case) where the law is violated, lose their status. I have worked in the nonprofit world for a very long time - we KNOW the laws governing our status. Those who choose to break it - do so with consequences. Advocating a position is one thing. Trying to coerce voters/congregants - is far, far over the line.

That has nothing to do with religious persecution.

To claim so - is a HUGE insult to those in history who have lost their lives due to political persecution.

[Baltimoreboy]

109. Selective enforcement is persecution

And that is what we are talking about here.

[salin]

114. er.... did you miss it a few years back when the Christian Coalition

faced huge fines and loss of tax exempt status due to running afoul of the law? There solution was to split the organization into two. One political arm - one an "informational" arm.

What is new is those Bishops trying to push political action from the pulpit in a way that has not been previously done- and thus did not previously cross the line of the law.

Either you are falling prey to the same "selective" phenomenon (but in this case it is selective attention, or memory), or perhaps you are new to the political conversation and thus are really unaware that this has been an issue with different tax exempt organizations over the years.

[Baltimoreboy]

116. This was not an issue with a mainstream church

Again, we are all wasting a lot of breath. Your desire won't happen. Neither party wishes to antagonize an entire religion the size of Catholicism.

[salin]

125. My beef with you

has to do not with actions taken or not (though I believe you are very misleading in your characterization about DUers singling out the Church and applauding others - with ZERO evidence)

It has to do with your use of "Religious Persecution" - something that is employed frequently by the religious right as political frame to justify using the political system (through laws) to attempt to impose their religious beliefs upon others... and attempts to block such actions are suddenly "REligious Persecution". There is NO persecution - on this issue (this thread), nor on others where the Religious Right claim it.

Unless you can fully define how this call (enforcing a law) is equal in historical context to real examples of religious persecution (including extermination, loss of property, expulsion from country... based on religion)... then the use of the Religious Right's pandering framing is... offensive.

[Baltimoreboy]

139. It's persecution when you attack a religious group

And seize millions or billions in assets because of their beliefs.

Frankly, I have almost never seen a Catholic thread at DU that doesn't call priests child molestors, including this one. I am used to the blatant anti-Catholicism I find.

Ultimately, our little disagreement is meaningless. Maybe the church will change its policy. But either way, it won't lose its tax exemption.

[GinaMaria]

141. Again, they are not attacked based on beliefs

the issue is behavior. Their chosen behavior crosses the line. plain and simple. That is not persecution. Unless you are using a definition other than a standard one.

Blatant anti-catholicism? I think in general there is mistrust of organized religeon here especially any that attempt to legislate their beliefs. catholics are not singled out. the catholic church is not singled out. they are discussed in LBN when they are in the news.

the catholic church has a huge horrifying scandal on it hands with pedophile priests. The church's actions and inactions in the many cases brought to light are at a minimum a violation of believers trust. It's not surprising that the issue comes up, when the church attempts to control other's behavior when it doesn't control their own. The same for Jack Ryan. Don't claim to be about family values or life and behave in a way that is opposite of what you preach. Americans don't seem to like that.

Would you let your son be an altar boy? I wouldn't. It's not about anti-catholic sentiment it's about saftey and protection of the child. Why take a chance?

[Baltimoreboy]

143. Chicken meet egg

Behavior is based on beliefs.

Going after the Church based on beliefs is persecution.

Catholics are not singled out? Every thread about the Church continues the endless diatribe about child molestation. That is singling them out.

Every group has pedophiles in it. The secrecy of confession and the belief in forgiveness makes handling this problem difficult.

Yes, I would let my son be an altar boy. Daughter as well. I would no more trust COMPLETE control of my child in anyone -- coach, priest, rabbi, teacher, etc.

[GinaMaria]

178. Behavior is a choice

Behavior is based on beliefs.

Behavior is a choice. You choose how you act on your feelings. Feelings are not a choice. They just are. We all feel anger or frustration at some point in our lives. We don't all commit acts of violence. How you act on feelings is a choice, some of those choices are legal, some are not, but they are always choices. Some say your choice of behavior is how you should be measured and judged.


Going after the Church based on beliefs is persecution.

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you just have nothing else to say? The catholic church is not being persecuted. No one is going after them for their beliefs. People here are hoping they will be held accountable for their behavior and actions, which are choices. The behavior was their choice. They know the consequences. Anyone is free to believe anything he or she wishes. We are not however free to behave any way we wish.

Catholics are not singled out? Every thread about the Church continues the endless diatribe about child molestation. That is singling them out.

If the LBN article that starts the thread is about the catholic church, then the discussion will be about the catholic church. See how that works? If the article is about Southern Baptists, then the discussion will be about southern baptists. If the article is about Ronald Reagan, then the discussion will be about Ronald Reagan.

DUers are not writing the articles. They are posting articles from the news that are less than 24 hours old. Endless diatribe about child molestation? How about this thread? the endless diatribe is about persecution of the poor weak catholic church /sarcasm. Are you unaware of the number of child molestation scandals involving pedophile priests? Because of the secrecy and protection these monsters were granted the number of victims multiplied faster than a Fabrege commercial. This was a sick cancer that wasn't stopped.

Every group has pedophiles in it. The secrecy of confession and the belief in forgiveness makes handling this problem difficult.

Parents, aunts, uncles, relatives, neighbors, teachers, doctors, coaches etc. Can all be pedophiles. None of these groups to my knowledge have allowed pedophiles among them to proliferate and thrive the way the catholic church has.

In their own words: Preserving the commong good of society requires rendering the aggressor unable to inflict harm. For this reason the traditional teaching of the Church has acknowledged as well founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime, not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity the death penalty. ... para 2267 If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order, and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to scuh means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. from Elaine's post

Guess this doesn't apply if the malefactors are priests.

As for your comments about confession... These were the people HEARING confession. Forgiveness doesn't erase common sense. See the church's own words above. They would never excuse this behavior in any other organization other than their own. Parents came to church authorities to tell them what happened. That's not confession. That's asking them to do something about it. They failed, miserably. They have lost moral authority in many people's opinions. They face the Jack Ryan dilema. And they should. This is a plague. They let it get to this point.

Yes, I would let my son be an altar boy. Daughter as well. I would no more trust COMPLETE control of my child in anyone -- coach, priest, rabbi, teacher, etc.

There is no reason for any of these people to be alone with a child. you don't know who the molestors are. They look like average people. It could be anyone. However, with recent reports about the criminal collusion of the catholic church in protecting pedophiles. I would never. I mean NEVER allow a priest to be alone with my child ever. There is no reason for it. The child does not benefit by being left alone with a priest. I would also keep my child out of Utah, which is the state with the highest amount of child sexual abuse. Oh no, now you'll accuse me of mormon bashing /sarcasm.

[PassingFair]

189. Puleeze, Boy...

"Every group has pedophiles in it."
But not EVERY group has been found to have conspired to keep said pedophiles from legal repercussion and knowingly move them about the country, putting more youths at risk.
Your church has been found legally liable for the molestation of HUNDREDS of youngsters. That's bad enough. When the lid was peeled back on Catholic handling of such matters, we see that it was intentionally hushed up. Violators were moved on or counseled, while victims were shut-up, bribed, or made to feel as if it was their own fault.
Shame on you.
Your job as Catholic Apologist is a full time career. You're welcome to it.

[Baltimoreboy]

201. I don't deny some priests are horrendous pedophiles

I think it unfair to criticize the whole church when society in general is only recently learning to understand this problem and cope with it.

[DiverDave]

160. Blatant anti-Catholicism???

You want to talk about being abused?
I WAS.
I have been dealing with this my whole life.
Take a hike you sanctimonious prick.
The priests that did the molesting, and the higher ups that allowed it to continue, are CRIMINALS!!.
So spin that one.
And oh yeah, the Church should pay all the abused billions for their suffering.
Another lame attempt to steer the debate away from the pedophile bastards and their enablers, which you seem to be.

[GinaMaria]

177. {{{{{DiverDave}}}}}

hugs for you. It's a life long process to heal. Your perspective is valid. Thinking of you tonight.

[Baltimoreboy]

200. Sorry you were abused

I didn't do it. And most Catholic priests didn't either. To paint them with the same brush is bigotry, nothing more. To call me names might make you feel better, but it doesn't address the issues.

Do you really understand the concept of confession? It seems like you do not. If I confess something to a priest, I can tell him ANYTHING and he can't act on it. I can tell him I murdered my wife and he can't say anything to anyone. That isn't conspiracy, that is a legally recognized constraint.

[salin]

118. Do you ever respond

to issues actually raised in posts?

No comment whatsoever on the HISTORY of what religious persecution (PERSECUTION being the operative word) means ? No argument on how this is somehow similar in nature to the loss of life, property, citizenship or the ability to work based on religious beliefs?

This conversation is over unless you talk about the misuse of the word persecution. Or attempt to justify the use of the word.

There are other words to use - bias... unjust targeting/enforement... No where would this equate to the holocaust, to pogroms, to the inquisition, to the mass exterminations in Cambodia. Your hyperbolic langauge makes the whole conversation a joke.

[Baltimoreboy]

122. This IS the loss of property

Easily more than a billion dollars a year.

And that loss will impact the works the church can accomplish as well.

[salin]

129. No.

It is calling for enforcement of the law.

To my knowledge prior to the attempt to use religious threat (heaven/hell) to coerce a particular type of vote... there was no line crossed and thus no thread of status. Indeed it is only in the past month or so that a handful of Bishops appear to be moving towards breaking the laws governing tax status. It is there decision whether to FORFEIT that money (re: tax status) or not.

Why do you believe that the Catholic Church should be able to act in ways that Planned Parenthood, the Urban League, the Quakers, and others are not able to act?

[Baltimoreboy]

135. Only to you

Again, I don't believe the Church is breaking the law. While I do disagree with the position, I strongly support their right to it.

[ElaineinIN]

145. Ah, but they are breaking the law.

See below

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=123922,00.html


Which is a very good summary of what the law allows and doesn't allow. Goes through the criteria for political appearances, etc.

While I disagree with your asserting that they are not violating the criteria for tax exemption, I agree that the IRS will not enforce this and take away the Church's exemption. They might hit them with the political active excise tax, however, especially if they can hit others at the same time so that they seem even handed.

[Baltimoreboy]

150. I don't believe even the IRS knows all of its own regulations

Nor do I believe this is a clear-cut thing.

In the end, they will leave the Church alone. As they should.

[GinaMaria]

180. You don't believe?

How about using facts? Do you have some sort of supporting evidence, proof, a link that would suggest the IRS doesn't know all it's regulations? Simply responding that you don't believe something is not proof and does not contribute to the discussion. Have anything more solid?

[cap]

165. when the church breaks the law,

it deserves to lose its property.

[cap]

173. it can't be persecution when members of the Church are asking

for tax exempt status to be removed.`

[CTLawGuy]

56. I suppose absolutely everybody

who is executed MUST have been guilty, huh?


and the sun is purple....

[Baltimoreboy]

61. Enough are

And no fetus is guilty of anything. See the difference?

[CTLawGuy]

75. if it is true that the fetus exists as a human life

my personal belief is that when a fetus is conceived it is not yet alive, but at some point in the womb it becomes alive.

So you could say that mostly you are not killing anything, because early fetuses are not alive, even though sometimes you kill an innocent person, just as with the death penalty, which you don't seem to have a problem with.

Do you have any Biblican evidence to show that a fetus is alive from the moment of conception?

[Baltimoreboy]

79. Catholic doctrine

I don't need proof.

[CTLawGuy]

89. Catholic Doctrine is not proof

at least not in my book. As a Lutheran, I have one standard of proof, the Bible.

[Baltimoreboy]

101. That's why you aren't Catholic

Duh.

[salin]

97. Anyone recall the percentage of those in Illinois

of all who were convicted and sent to death row - who were later exonerated (leading to former Gov Ryan's commutation of sentences). Wasn't it something around 40% or more...?

[CTLawGuy]

104. oh that doesn't matter...

as long as at least one of them is guilty :eyes:

[CTLawGuy]

58. another way to solve the problem

pro-choice people could just buy indulgences like they would have done in the 1500s.

Indulgence- the ancient Catholic Church used to sell indulgences to people, a promise to cancel out part of the buyer's time in Purgatory for a cash fee. The Catholics believed that sinners who otherwise would go to Heaven had to spend time in Purgatory first to make up for their sins before going to Heaven. The concept of Purgatory, as far as I know, has no basis in Biblical fact.

[Baltimoreboy]

62. Another idea

Let's reference something else that bears nothing on the issue and is 500 years old. I wonder how Columbus felt about this issue...

[CTLawGuy]

70. are you saying Catholics don't believe in indulgences anymore?

I truthfully have no idea whether they do or not, I just knew they ONCE believed in it.

[Baltimoreboy]

80. Buying indulgences went away long ago

Christians used to be Jews about 2,000 years ago. Let's go back that far.

[salin]

95. Except of course, how it is administered in this country

given the experience in Illinois (where a very large percentage of those given the death penalty were later exonerated) - the death penalty in the U.S. - does include the killing of innocent life.

Heck, even Catholic Justice Scalia has proclaimed that upholding the dpenalty system - even if procedure allows an innocent person to be excuted - is valid.

[prolesunited]

32. Actually, they are pretty consistent

in their stance. They are against the death penalty and the pope spoke out about Iraq — not that I agree with their position on abortion and birth control and meddling in politics.

[GinaMaria]

48. Are they denying communion to anyone

who doesn't confess to voting for a pro death penalty candidate? There's the difference. They 'claim' to be consistent on the issue of 'life', but are not. As someone who had the great misfortune to be raised catholic, the inconsistencies are one of many things that drove me from the church. I'm not alone. There are a lot of ex-catholics out there. People looking in from the outside see this insanity.

[prolesunited]

90. Raising my hand

Another former Catholic here. The hypocrisy and treatment of women drove me from the church in my late teens.

You raise a valid point. Perhaps they need to deny communion to pro death penalty candidates as well.

The church is a strong influence on old-time Catholics. My father, a lifelong Dem and union member, voted for Bush in the last election because of a video the church distributed on "partial birth" abortion. I didn't even consider that he would vote for Bush or I would have set him straight sooner. He said he voted to save the babies.

I checked with him a few weeks ago. He is NOT voting for Bush again and truly regrets it.

[TankLV]

27. When will all you rubes & priests get it thru your thick skulls?

BEING PRO-CHOICE IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO BEING PRO-ABORTION.

YOU CAN BE ANTI-ABORTION AND PRO-CHOICE AT THE SAME TIME!

This is ENTIRELY consistant with Catholic Teachings!

They are trying to make a mountain out of a mo-hill.

Pro-choice people just don't belive it's their perrogative to force other people to believe as they do.

Last time I heard, the church can't fault a person because he refuses to force other non-catholics to submit and comply with Catholic Church teachings!

[Baltimoreboy]

30. The Catholic Church makes that decision, not you

And they have determined otherwise.

[cap]

34. no...

the bishops are mostly silent, b-boy. Let any urban northeastern bishop come out against the pro-choice Dems and they will not be getting building permits for the next church project. Oh yeah... and there's still more sex abuse to come out. Let's see the church ask its members to bail them out now.

[July]

40. Actually, "they" have not determined what this bishop says.

"They" have given no direction about how people should vote. Once again, this particular bishop is getting some face time on the news by telling people how to vote.

[Baltimoreboy]

43. If the church or the pope objected, they would say so

They have not.

[cap]

69. more importantly... they haven't consented...

either. They are trying to draw a very fine line.

[Baltimoreboy]

81. Lacking comment, they are giving consent.

[cap]

147. no they aren't

trust me... in a very heavily democratic area, the church wants to play ball...who's gonna bail them out of the sex abuse scandals but the laity and the pro-choice laity at that. Most bishops know what side their bread is buttered on. 66% of us Catholics favor federally funded abortions. That's a lot of confessions and a lot of people to piss off.
Never mind cash walking out the door.

This is a ploy to get the Catholics to vote Republican, that's all. Where's the censure for Giuliani, Pataki,

[July]

76. Sorry, still can't agree with you.

The article we're posting about says the church allows bishops to adapt Catholic teaching to their own dioceses. So one bishop may choose to "adapt" in a way another bishop does not. The church's not saying something about it doesn't equal an endorsement in my book. They allow a certain latitude, apparently.

[TankLV]

182. My statement stands. It's fact. That cannot be denied.

What they say does not automatically make it the truth.

You did not refute my statement of fact.

You did not respond to the truthfulness of my statement.

Again, for the intellectually impaired:

YOU CAN BE PRO-CHOICE & ANTI-ABORTION!

That is ENTIRELY consistant with with what these idiots are trying to tell their members.

BEING PRO-CHOICE DOES NOT EQUAL BEING PRO-ABORTION!

Are you clear now?!

[atreides1]

168. Anti Abortion in the Church is only 135 Years Old.

Abortion has only been against the churches teachings since 1869, prior to that the church had no problem with a woman getting an abortion unless it was after the 17th week.

Besides the church also accepted through the Passion Plays that the Jews were to blame for the death of Christ, at least until the Vatican Council in 1962?

But isn't social responsibility taught by the church, and yet Giuliani had no problem having the NYPD roust the homeless, and I don't recall the Bishop of New York coming out against it.

Tell me does the church teach that it's alright to molest children, I'm just asking because it seems that molesting priests were reassigned and not turned over to the authorities. So could it be that these priest didn't violate the church's teachings?

[The_Casual_Observer]

22. Raymond Burke, as Dickface Cheney would say......

[hunter]

23. I am not a "pro-choice" Catholic or anything like that...

Mostly it's none of my business, that really is one of those situations where "God will sort them out..." Heaven is full of dead babies and the vast majority of them were aborted by natural causes, or later died by natural causes. It is simple math and brutal biology.

But I am very, very, very much against the "death penalty," so much so that I can't see how anyone could ever vote for someone who supports a "death penalty."

I believe that anyone who votes for a candidate who supports the death penalty is going to have some serious problems at the pearly gates, many more problems than those who refused to judge the motives of anyone who ever terminated a pregnancy.

Most of all, I don't see how anyone like George W. Bush, who mocked the execution of a woman, won't be terrified and standing on the trapdoor that leads straight to hell. That kind of thinking is, of course, my own sin. God will judge, not me.

Nature, the nature that God Himself created, terminates pregnancies every day. I don't presume to know all the reasons, nor do I presume to know, or especially to judge, the reasoning of my sisters.

Yeah, I'll confess that...

[Geo55]

28. Nooo

[silverweb]

36. Eloquently said, hunter.

Thank you.

[BattyDem]

31. Catholics: CONFESS! Right after all the pedophile priests do

How can they not see the hypocrisy in their position? How can they believe no one else will see it?

[dand]

37. The stench from this Church is overwhelming,

its a protection racket for child rapists,
controls enormous wealth, while millions go hungry, and now its becoming a Republican mouthpiece, (I am a recovering Catholic.)

[dbt]

39. The Catholic Church is WORRIED about "cooperating in evil?????"

How has it endured this long without developing some sense of Irony?

:hurts:
dbt

[lostnfound]

45. So if the choice were between prochoice Kerry & an anti-abortion Hitler..

I do not understand this simplistic thinking.

[Baltimoreboy]

47. You have to understand, many people don't consider him Hitler

They may support him. They may not. But the Hitler thing is completely overblown and it damages your credibility.

[lostnfound]

54. I didn't say Bush was Hitler, it was only a hypothethical

with the point being that this man is saying that NOTHING else is a consideration other than prochoice/prolife.

[sandnsea]

98. The Hitler "thing" is not overblown

Examine my conscience, look at what Bush has done and will do to this country and the people of the world, no way can a moral person vote for him. Not one who knows the truth. The Church is completely out of line. If they get away with this, who knows what they're going to try to make you vote for next. No vasectomies? No birth control or condoms? No divorce? What next? We are a country based on the Constitution, not the Bible, not Humane Vitae. You better wake up and get religion out of the government before you realize the Southern Baptists have more power than the Church and the Southern Baptists think Catholics are heathens. What if they told their members it was against their principles to vote for a Catholic, any Catholic?

[Baltimoreboy]

102. We are a country based on freedom

No one makes us be Catholic.

As for Bush, let me know when he gets a body count in the millions.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[sandnsea]

110. You think Hitler didn't start with 1?

Pathetic answer. Just pathetic. One rape, one murder... don't worry about it. Go to the beach, turn on the beav. Is there a magic number where we can be justified in saying Bush is turning into a Hitler? Just so I know how long I have to be silent. How long I have to put dead cells over bombed babies.

[Baltimoreboy]

111. He's had almost four years

Your comparison defies logic, reason and reality.

It is simple political hyperbole. You are bad, therefore you must be a Nazi. People forget what the Nazis really were like.

[sandnsea]

121. Reality?

Do you know reality? Do you deny the Administration pressures the media to report their way? Bush is even throwing fits with foreign media. People have been targeted because they protest. No-fly lists that you don't know you're on or why you're on them. I've seen people threatened with eviction because they put up a Kerry sign. People are afraid they're going to be run off the road for bumper stickers. Lies about war. Disregarding the Geneva Convention, authorizing torture. Americans arrested without access to a lawyer. A belief that he was appointed by God and has a mandate to "spread democracy" throughout the ME by military force.

Just because you agree with him, doesn't mean really bad things aren't happening.

Besides, any time the Catholic Church has supported a government in the past, it hasn't turned out so well. That, all by itself, is cause for concern for me. And I've been a Catholic all my life, not anymore, no religion is going to tell me how to vote. That's why the people were worried about Kennedy, we'd be a country controlled by the Vatican. Now we've got a bunch of nutballs who think it's a good idea. :crazy:

[Baltimoreboy]

124. You can paint Bush as bad as you want

He's still not on the Hitler track.

[sandnsea]

149. When will he be?

Like I said, give me the specific number of dead, the laws broken, civil rights measures abandoned, right wing judges appointed. Just so I'll know when I can stand up and rightly say "Bush is on the Hitler track".

[Baltimoreboy]

151. He won't be

Hitler is a superlative. So were Stalin, Mao and maybe Pol Pot.

[sandnsea]

157. I feel all better now

Americans are just too good to be evil I guess. :eyes:

Oh, one more thing, go fuck yourself. There, I feel better now. Says Cheney to America. :evilgrin:

[Norbert]

55. ARCHDOICESE OF ST LOUIS AND SEX ABUSE

Critics of the Archdiocese of St. Louis have long accused it of not revealing the truth about sexual abuse by Catholic priests. Now an insurance company covering the archdiocese is making the same claim.
...

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/St.+Louis+City+%2F+County/D17479DAAD0C99AC86256EB70015914E?OpenDocument&Headline=Archdiocese+delayed+revealing+sexual+abuse+claim,+firm+says

A Google search of "Archdiocese of St. Louis" and "sex abuse" gives you 709 results and a long Goooooooooooogle at the bottom of the page when doing a web search. The archdiocese has issues to deal with. The good archbishop better clean up his own back yard before he comes after parrishoners who support abortion and abortion rights candidates that have never laid a hand on a child.

[napi21]

59. This is one of the reasons all churches should stay out of

politics! I am a Catholic, and if I applied the true Church teachings to all politicians, I'd never vote for anybody!

A very close friend, and re-born Christian minister, told me that people should not make single issue decisions when deciding who to vote for. You should look at all the positions of each candidate, and choose the one who more closely aligned with our thinking.

There was a good reason the Constitution requires separation of Church & State! It's also a requirement for those institutions to remain TAX EXEMPT! Maybe that's a movement we should all persue....removing the tax exempt status of ANY church that decides it wants to enter the political arena?

[cap]

71. there's a way to shut this noise down

and that is to look at the number of abortions that priests have caused either through adultery or child abuse and what the complicity of the hierarchy has been.

[alarimer]

73. yes

They need to stay out of politics altogether. What I object is the idea that anyone would allow a church, any church, to determine what they are supposed to think. What is wrong with people thinking for themselves? So many people I know are just like sheep- "if the church says so, that is what I have to believe". What the hell is that about??

[54anickel]

77. Loosing their tax-exempt status really get's them riled up! I remember

seeing a couple of the TV preachers pushing their followers to write their reps when this came up before. They gave some of the most outrageous examples of how the removal of tax exempt status would be abused. Too bad they did not give examples of how the church was being abused for political reasons - the letter writing campaign threatening to withhold votes being one example. :eyes:

[cap]

166. let's see what happens when the archdiocese has to

ante up on the child abuse settlements. Who are they going to ask to pay for this? Only the pro-life Catholics, I hope.

[R Hickey]

170. This Bishop sent a child molester to a school in Eau Claire, Wisconsin

If this bishop is the same one that just got promoted from La Cross, Wisconsin, then I can share with you some dirt on him.

Two or three years ago, while he was still Bishop of La Cross, this holy man sent a pedophile priest to St. Mary's grade school in Altoona, (Eau Claire) Wisconsin. This bishop had to know his priest was bad, he'd read his file, but he did not share that tidbit with the school. The bishop only told the school that the priest had some 'emotional problems.'

After the priest arrived, someone at the school recalled the pedophile priest's prior record, thru having read newspaper articles about him in the past.

Quietly, like a beer fart in a crowded elevator, all hell broke lose. The teachers were all afraid to let the priest alone with the children, and in a few weeks, without any ugly sexual incidents, the school got rid of the predator.

[freeforall]

72. Bah! Eliminate organized religion!

Isn't it about time that people stopped giving control of their lives over to the church, and think for themselves?

Just my .02

[ElaineinIN]

84. Catechism/Exemption

So I pulled out my Catholic Catechism to check on the innocent v. not innocent distinction. So here you go...

para 2270 abortion Human Life must be respected and protected aboslutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existance, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person--among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life... para 2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation....

re: death penalty

para 2266 Preserving the commong good of society requires rendering the aggressor unable to inflict harm. For this reason the traditional teaching of the Church has acknowledged as well founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime, not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity the death penalty. ... para 2267 If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order, and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to scuh means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

If you check the Vatican's website and do a search on the death penalty, there is a recent statement from the Pope, I believe at an international conference on the death penalty stating that the death penalty is rarely if ever necessary to protect public order. So, in practice, the Church seems to be against both strongly; however, a reading of the catechism clearly indicates a stronger stance against abortion, at least in part due to the fact that the new life is innocent.

I FURTHER NOTE:

Section 501(c) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amemded, specifically provides that an organization exempt from tax under this section may not participate in any "political" activities, which includes endorsing candiates. On the IRS website, there is a very accruate letter from Steve Miller, head of exempt organizations for the IRS to the various political parties, setting out what is, and isn't policital activity. It clearly was sent in response to the Repub activity in organizing churchs. It is a very conscise and clear letter, and I recommend everyone to give it a read... go to www.irs.gov, then go to the charities page (the link is about half way down the page on the left hand side.)

As a tax lawyer who does tax-exempt work, and a former Catholic (now Episcopalian--I left because of exactly this kind of crap), I think the Church has every right to say abortion is wrong, and to tell their congregents it is wrong, but when it crosses over to instructing who to vote for, and who not to vote for, it clearly violates Section 501(c)(3) and they ought to have their exemption revoked.

[GinaMaria]

92. Elaine, thanks for typing that

for the rest of us. What year is your catechism?

[ElaineinIN]

93. Its the new one

copyright 1994, published 1995, if I'm reading it correctly.

[GinaMaria]

136. I'm making the assumption

this is a new change as this distinction was not made when I was still a practicing catholic. It's a sad turn and all the more reason for me to leave. As a woman I found the religeon to severly limit my choices in many matters.

Again, thank you for taking the time to type this.

[ElaineinIN]

146. Don't know

my husband, who is a mediaeval historian, tells me that the more strident opposition to the death penalty is relatively recent (last half of this century). Having been raised Catholic and going to CCD but not to Catholic school, I can tell you that I didn't know the emphasis on one was greater than the other doctrinally because my crappy CCD spent more time on WWJD? than on actually teaching us what the catechism said. I wish they would have taught me sooner... I would have left sooner and been all the happier for it!

[agincourt]

87. I was raised Catholic,

and this is precisely why I left. Abortion is their only issue.
They've literally turned into a fertility cult over the past 25 years.

[young_at_heart]

119. I'm bothered by the word "told"

Sounds like a parent telling the children to behave or they'll be punished. Such a great way to instill love!

[Q]

126. Another inquisition?

- Confessing to 'thought crimes'?

[chairman]

131. How is B@#$ ANTI-abortion?

"Archbishop Raymond Burke said Thursday that Catholics cannot vote for candidates or policies in support of abortion..."

People do not, I believe, have abortions for titillation.
My own pet solution to the disgrace of abortion in this country revolves around prenatal care and employment insurance/training/whatever, so that women will not feel themselves financially compelled to get abortions.
B@#$ has not to my knowledge embarked on any type of innovative program designed to reduce the number of abortions, much less adequately funded them. (Please correct me if I am wrong. More a suspicion than pronunciation.)
Furthermore, he has not even pursued the narrow-minded legal avenue, beyond implanting his rightist judges. This is much more likely attributable to his powerlust than any high-mindedness.
In sum, B@#$ cannot be defended by the Church as pro-life. His policies can only increase the number of abortions in America.
So, that begs the question, why are these clerics so rabidly anti-Kerry?

[Mace]

132. Archbishop Raymond Burke said Thursday that Catholics cannot vote for cand

And this is why I don't follow religions who have priests that tell others what to do.

I don't think it's right for others to order others around.

I think it's better to just create your own religion about what or what not to do based on your own morals.

[dansolo]

144. Is he asking supporters of the war to confess?

The Pope called the invasion of Iraq immoral. So wouldn't supporting that invasion be considered a sin?

[cap]

148. hey baltimore boy, don't you read what your own bishop is saying???

n May 28, the Baltimore Sun reported that Cardinal William H. Keeler opposes some bishops who would deny Communion to Catholic politicians who support abortion "rights". According to the story, the Baltimore cardinal said in an interview that it was not the business of bishops to choose who receives Communion. The Sun quoted him as having said in an interview that week:

"Our position is ... Catholics have a responsibility to examine their own conscience and see if they are in a state that is appropriate for the reception of the sacrament. We don't need bishops to get into the act."

"We have said again and again as bishops, we are not in partisan politics," Keeler said. "We dare not be pulled into a dispute between one party and another."

The complete interview was not made available by the Sun . Click title above to go to Baltimore Sun story, or paste this URL directly into your browser: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal-te.md.communion28may28,0,6062724.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

Note: Cardinal Keeler was elected chairman of the USCCB Pro-Life Activities Committee!!!

Don't you know what your own bishop is saying???? Are you really Catholic or are you a troll?

[Forkboy]

152. If he's not Muddleoftheroad

He does the best impersonation I've ever seen.Rich Little would be envious.

[Baltimoreboy]

153. I am really Catholic

If you could read, you would note that I make no claims to great Catholicism. Yes, I have seen some of what Keeler has said. Until the Church overrules the actions of the bishops in question, it IS endorsing the action.

I could name schools, but I'm not silly enough to reveal personal information.

(Edited to add something.)

[cap]

161. then those bishops only speak for themselves and not

for the Church. Unless the Church overrules the actions of the bishops in question, in this case, Keeler, it is endoring the action, right????
Your argument goes both ways. You pick the pro-lifers, I pick the ones who separate chuch and state.

We can pick the bishops' opinion that we want, right???

[cap]

167. do you live the faith that you proclaim?

if you are single, are you virginal? if you are married, let's ask about your past: when you were single did you keep your virginity? If you didn't, did you ever use contraception? What were your plans if it failed? Can your girlfriends back you up on this?

[struggle4progress]

179. Thanks. After reading through this thread ...

I think I've gotten a clearer idea about the way many mainstream Catholics might regard some of these issues. Since those views are rather different than mine, it's been useful and educational.

Apologies for the anti-Catholicism appearing here and there on the thread: I'm glad you have a thick enough skin to post. :)

[mahina]

155. Let's all confess to supporting an administration that's killed thousands!

We should all- ALL- go to confession and tell the priests we are sorry for contributing to the deaths of thousands, tens of thousands by some accounts, of innocents in Iraq and Afganistan- over 11 thousand killed and injured American servicemen and woman ( the low figures we get are only those killed and injured in action, not the total casualties, understated by a factor of ten.
I am heartily sorry and I repent of these crimes. I promise to do everything I can to stop this criminal admistration within the law, though it doesn't seem to restrain them any.
With aloha, for peace

[struggle4progress]

197. Affirming Life

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=58855

[PA Democrat]

156. Will he deny Holy Communion to politicians who refuse to intervene in the

genocide that is occurring in the Sudan? For those who want to play the "numbers" game, the number of deaths in the Sudan exceeds 2 million. Or should we quibble over how many of those are "innocent"?

Can we add in some pro-rated number for politicians who will not adopt policies to ease the suffering of people who are starving, or lacking health care? Or how about people who are suffering because of increased air pollution?

Oh, wait. We must decide who is a good Catholic based upon ONE SINGLE ISSUE!

[cap]

162. PA Democrat: here's a statement from Philly archdiocese:

This caused a bit of a problem for some parishes. While individual Catholics can shout a candidate's cause from the housetops, the Catholic Church must add a more nuanced voice. There is more to consider than the candidate's character or stand on policy issues.

The Church does not promote any one candidate for office. One reason is the legal limitations placed on organizations by the Internal Revenue Service. The tax code contains an absolute prohibition that forbids tax-exempt groups to "participate in or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements) any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office."

Violating this absolute prohibition risks jeopardizing the Church's federal tax-exempt status; therefore doing so might hamper the services that the Church provides to its members and to society at large.

The more fundamental reason, is reason itself: people are encouraged to make their own choice for whom they will vote. A properly formed and informed conscience – through which a person understands the issues as fully as possible, and upon reflecting on objective truths comes to a decision -- not only helps one cast a vote, it helps one understand the issues on which the candidate, if successful, will act on when in office.

A vote as the result of an exercise of conscience is the first way for people to engage in our country's political life, and through it change our culture into one that honors human life and respects the truth.

The Archdiocese of Philadelphia educates Catholics on how to vote, not for whom to vote. The archdiocesan Office for Public Affairs publishes candidates' questionnaires in a variety of means, including in parish church bulletins. Parish pastors are notified of the office's intentions to distribute approved materials months or weeks in advance.

The materials always have the same goal: inform Catholic voters by presenting a non-partisan, objective presentation of a candidate's position on questions of interest to Catholics. Candidates answer specific questions in their own words.

Some voters guides not approved by the Archdiocese nonetheless support the goal of educating voters by presenting Catholic teaching on issues relating to abortion, euthansia and cloning, to name a few.

http://www.archdiocese-phl.org/opaweb/faithcitizen/endorse.htm

[PA Democrat]

171. MY experience with MY Catholic parish

was a "voter's guide" with only TWO issues: 1. abortion and 2. school vouchers.

Christ preached so much about helping the poor, the sick, the least fortunate among us, but in MY catholic church none of those issues made it into their voter's "guide".

There are many Republican politicians who know that all they have to do to get the nod from a segment of the population is claim that they are "pro-life" while showing little to NO respect for life in their other positions.

I personally feel that the Republican party has been very successful into conning the religious right and the Catholic church simply by waving the pro-life banner.

[cap]

172. by any chance was your "voters guide" from the Christian Coalition

ours were. I wonder if these were approved or not. I don't think the Catholic Church and the Evangelicals have closed ranks that far. Just curious.

[PA Democrat]

175. No it was part of the parish bulletin

There was nothing on it indicating that it came from anywhere else other than the parish priest.

The irony was that this voters guide included the 2002 PA gubernatorial candidates. The "pro-life" candidate was none other than former A/G Mike Fisher who not only supports the death penalty, but happened to be the co-author the PA death penalty statute, which permitted the execution of minors and of the mentally retarded. Mr. Fisher was a vocal critic of the Supreme Court's 2002 decision ruling that execution of the mentally retarded was cruel and unusual punishment.

[cap]

163. more from Rigali

he United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has published a resource entitled, "Faithful Citizenship: A Catholic Call to Political Responsibility," which has been provided to all pastors and parochial administrators.

The material serves as a guide for parish leaders to remind the faithful of their right to vote and of the serious responsibility which we have, as mandated by Jesus, to transform society for the better. This resource identifies moral principles about which Catholics should be informed when exercising the right to vote.

As Catholics, we hold in highest priority the right to life and our duty to defend human life. This principle applies to the protection of unborn children as well as the Church's opposition to embryonic stem cell research, cloning, assisted suicide, euthanasia and the death penalty. We oppose so-called "same-sex marriage" as we consistently uphold marriage as defined between a man and a woman and we promote family life as the stabilizing factor in society. We acknowledge the need to serve the poor and vulnerable, as we also work to promote the dignity of workers and the protection and well-being of children.

As Catholics, we also seek the way of peace by practicing global solidarity. Further, we acknowledge the importance of proper stewardship over creation by appropriate care for the environment.
http://www.archdiocese-phl.org/opaweb/faithcitizen/JCR_civicduty.htm
Vote according to a properly-formed conscience.

[silverpatronus]

158. "catholic church told: you first" eom

[Endangered Specie]

169. "Forgive me for I have sinned...

But I so badly want that alter boy, you know, the little one with the cute innocent blue ey...er u... I ask forgivness".

"You are forgived..... and I know how you feel, hes quite a beauty isnt he?"

"Yeah, tell me about it, better than the last 2 I ha... er um... I need forgivness for that too, by the way"

[nolabels]

174. What is this idea about confess?

They must be lying about something? Every day I strive to tell everything I know that might help someone and try learn to be quiet during the other times. Well that is what I strive for anyway. A lot of good people have made a lot of in roads in this department. When babies come it is because of someone else did something. How simple is that? Why would you want to live another life after this one? Is not this one life that was given to you good enough? The philosophy of physiology and a twisted life, woe is me (not).

It's wrong to judge others but everybody has to do it just stay alive, some times people come up with the most stupid ideas. All things in good time and everything in moderation, what’s that for? These ideas of self-induced afflictions are the script of the masochist, and the people on high who wish it to be so could be classified as sadistic. Why is so important to have followers and leaders anyway? A little free association is good for your soul. Why try to bundle everything in one neat contextual statement. I(hasn't) didn't work so far(,) the world seems more confused than it ever was before.

See this is confused, but I was meaning it to be that way, because that is the same CONcept I get from observing these Holy rollers. As I have watched it through the years it really only confused me to the point of watching others get caught up in it. I would think to myself 'why would they do that?'. It's easy to understand when you realize people like to be confused and led around like children.

It may sound confused but I know I must lead my own path where ever that leads. We all can only lead ourselves so if any one else tells you different it is in some way a lie, at least that's how I think about. It's not that we or you or I or them or what ever are head cases, its just who and how we are, why do I need to confess (apologize) of or for that, can you not see?

Enough for gibberish try this guy


http://deoxy.org/watts.htm
http://deoxy.org/w_psyrel.htm

(snip)(near the bottom of the page)
The third characteristic, arising from the second, is awareness of relativity. I see that I am a link in an infinite hierarchy of processes and beings, ranging from molecules through bacteria and insects to human beings, and, maybe, to angels and gods-a hierarchy in which every level is in effect the same situation. For example, the poor man worries about money while the rich man worries about his health: the worry is the same, but the difference is in its substance or dimension. I realize that fruit flies must think of themselves as people, because, like ourselves, they find themselves in the middle of their own world-with immeasurably greater things above and smaller things below. To us, they all look alike and seem to have no personality-as do the Chinese when we have not lived among them. Yet fruit flies must see just as many subtle distinctions among themselves as we among ourselves.

From this it is but a short step to the realization that all forms of life and being are simply variations on a single theme: we are all in fact one being doing the same thing in as many different ways as possible. As the French proverb goes, plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose (the more it varies, the more it is one). I see, further, that feeling threatened by the inevitability of death is really the same experience as feeling alive, and that as all beings are feeling this everywhere, they are all just as much "I" as myself. Yet the "I" feeling, to be felt at all, must always be a sensation relative to the "other"-to something beyond its control and experience. To be at all, it must begin and end. But the intellectual jump that mystical and psychedelic experiences make here is in enabling you to see that all these myriad I-centers are yourself—not, indeed, your personal and superficially conscious ego, but what Hindus call the paramatman, the Self of all selves.3 As the retina enables us to see countless pulses of energy as a single light, so the mystical experience shows us innumerable individuals as a single Self.

The fourth characteristic is awareness of eternal energy, often in the form of intense white light, which seems to be both the current in your nerves and that mysterious e which equals mc2. This may sound like megalomania or delusion of grandeur-but one sees quite clearly that all existence is a single energy, and that this energy is one's own being. Of course there is death as well as life, because energy is a pulsation, and just as waves must have both crests and troughs, the experience of existing must go on and off. Basically, therefore, there is simply nothing to worry about, because you yourself are the eternal energy of the universe playing hide-and-seek (off-and-on) with itself. At root, you are the Godhead, for God is all that there is. Quoting Isaiah just a little out of context: "I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light and create the darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things."4 This is the sense of the fundamental tenet of Hinduism, Tat tram asi??"THAT (i.e., "that subtle Being of which this whole universe is composed") art thou."5 A classical case of this experience, from the West, is in Tennyson's Memoirs:

A kind of waking trance I have frequently had, quite up from boyhood, when I have been all alone. This has generally come upon me thro' repeating my own name two or three times to myself silently, till all at once, as it were out of the intensity of the consciousness of individuality, the individuality itself seemed to dissolve and fade away into boundless being, and this not a confused state, but the clearest of the clearest, the surest of the surest, the weirdest of the weirdest, utterly beyond words, where death was an almost laughable impossibility, the loss of personality (if so it were) seeming no extinction but the only true life.6
(snip)

[drscm]

176. Is this bishop going to confess for supporting a man

who is responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent Iraquis?

[DaveSZ]

181. The CC has become like the Fundie churches

It used to be that they were advocates for social justice, civil rights, peace, and the working man.

Now they are accessories to the carnage in Iraq.

[Tight_rope]

183. I confess that Archbishop Raymond Burke should go "FUCK HIMSELF"

[shrike]

186. Nothing like a Catholic thread to get everyone all riled up around here

Burke is not my bishop so I don't care what he says. I doubt anyone else does, so this will have minimal, if any, impact on the election.

[Swamp Rat]

188. I CONFESS!!!

I am not a Catholic.

I will burn in a Catholic purgatory with all the other free thinkers.

[nolabels]

191. I am not opposed to waiting them out either

http://summer.durangomountainresort.com/index.cfm?CFID=3265475&CFTOKEN=12522418#
Package Deals (CLICK HERE)

[Swamp Rat]

193. Checked out that link... awesome!

I've never been to Durango. But I've been to a lot of places, in nearby states (NM(family), AZ(family), UT(Univ. of Utah/Park City), WY). I think I'll give Durango a visit one day too.


This is home:
http://www.frenchquarterfestival.com/
http://www.bestofneworleans.com/dispatch/current/gw_index.html
http://www.offbeat.com/

[nolabels]

195. I have been a few places but never to purgatory or to see the Saints

Thank goodness football season is almost here :toast:





http://www.neworleanssaints.com/

[Swamp Rat]

196. I hope GB rues letting Lamar Smith go.

If you come to New Orleans to see the Saints, then you have a chance to see how Northern Caribbeans deal with Catholicism.

Hint: We have a lot of fun bending the rules... go away Ashcroft!... butt out!

[indypaul]

190. I will vote for anyone I

damn well please, irrespective of the opinion of your
excellency. Dictates such as yours only bring to mind
those famous words of Vice President Cheney which might
just apply in this case.

[Wabbajack]

192. I just hate religion

I don;t mean to offend anyone but that's just how I feel.

[Swamp Rat]

194. What about the great pantheon of Greek gods?

Or the rituals of the Yanomami or Warí?

Odin?

[T Bone]

198. I think all us Catholics should go confess

and take up every minute of the parish priest's time in the confessional. Make them so busy they get blue balls for not having time to molest altar boys.

Really we could single out the parishs with the most obnoxious priests and bishops calling for confession and literally SWAMP them with confessions, every day, every week. See if it makes them happy.

[cap]

199. if we all confess, that's over half of us who favor pro-choice

that's a lot of time spent in the box! You know, there's a shortage of priests... do they really have the time to hear all this????