Tillman killed by friendly fire

[darkstar]

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0529tillman29.html

Tillman killed by friendly fire


Pat Tillman

Billy House
Republic Washington Bureau
May. 29, 2004 12:00 AM

WASHINGTON - Pat Tillman, the former Arizona Cardinals football player who died in April while a U.S. soldier fighting in Afghanistan, likely was killed by friendly fire, an Army investigation has concluded.

News of that finding was disseminated Friday to some members of Congress and some Tillman family members just as the Memorial Day weekend was to begin, including today's dedication ceremonies in Washington of the World War II Memorial.

"It does seem pretty clear that he was killed by friendly fire," said Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., a member of the House Armed Services Committee, which was alerted to the information by the Army's Legislative Liaison Office.

[brokensymmetry]

1. How sad.

A senseless, needless death in a senseless, needless war.

[saracat]

3. Typical

After all the pissing and moaning, we killed him ourselves! How do we count his death then? Does it not count like all the others we claim are non combatant? Or is he like the uncounted who dies when he comes home?I guess his celebrity status makes it different. Notice the "friendly fire" issue isn't getting nearly as much play as his death.
And so it seems , Tillman and Nick Berg, both died because of their allegiance to the Ahole in the WH.And their deaths are spun as PR for the monster.I hope God is watching.

[TahitiNut]

54. "we killed him ourselves!"

That can be said of every death in the insanity called war.

"We" are the people of this planet. Unless and until we fully acknowledge this truth, we will continue to kill each other.

"Thou shalt not kill"??? ... and how many have been murdered under some banner proclaiming itself annointed by this Instructor?

All of them.

[mountainvue]

68. I was going to post

this very thought. Thank you for putting it so eloquently. i am so sorry for his family's loss.

[Must_B_Free]

51. Not Necessarily...

he may have been purposefully killed to create a "Real American Hero" who wouldn't talk too much like Jessica Lynch.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brokensymmetry]

4. Definitely time to leave.

I don't know about "only death and dishonor left". It seems we already have both of those in abundance.

[rooboy]

5. I heard Ann Coulter say that there wasn't enough press about Tillman...

I bet he regrets that comment now.

[bahrbearian]

7. I think you made a typeo, it's Mann Coulter

[rooboy]

20. I prefer to think it's Andy Coulter...

Kaufman could still be out there somewhere, you know.

[He loved Big Brother]

71. I thought he ended up returning-

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040519/234/726q1.html

[Baltimoreboy]

14. Why, friendly fire deaths are inevitable in combat

You can limit them, you can't eliminate them. He still died in combat with the enemy.

[atreides1]

17. But There Might Not Have Been an Enemy Force

According to the US-AP story, and what seems to have been left out of the Arizona Republic is this statement by an Afghan military official.

"An Afghan military official told The Associated Press on Saturday that Tillman died because of a "misunderstanding" when two mixed groups of American and Afghan soldiers began firing wildly in the confusion following an explosion."

Translation: The two groups were seperated and upon hearing an explosion started firing on each other.

The Afghans also said that there was no evidence of enemy fighters
being in the area. The explosion might have been a mine, which Afghanistan is full of or a remote controlled bomb.

Not to be funny but this would be like the picture of a firing squad standing in circle around the guy who's to be executed.

So you see if there was no enemy force then he didn't die in combat, because without an enemy to fight there is no combat.

[Baltimoreboy]

25. He was shot and died in combat

It was a combat area and enemy forces were in the area. Whether they set off the fighting or not is of minor note. When you have a large number of people constantly on guard and wary of being attacked, accidents will occur.

[gratuitous]

53. In that case . . .

All those "enemy combatants" currently being held at Guantanamo Bay are prisoners of war as defined by the Geneva Conventions, and their detention becomes illegal, and the Bush administration is therefore committing a war crime.

So, if Pat Tillman = Combat Hero,

then George W. Bush = War Criminal

Works for me.

[atreides1]

59. No

He died in a combat zone, but the wounds were inflicted by another friendly unit. And being a combat veteran, my take is that the enemy has to at least have been in the immediate area.

What this shows is that a group of nervous and tired allied troops made a mistake that cost a man his life, and wounded other allied soldiers.

No enemy, no enemy fire.

[bahrbearian]

70. The whole country is a war zone if you listen to Ashcroft.

We're front liner's .

[progressivebydesign]

60. It appears a mine went off and they began shooting...

thinking they were under fire by the enemy... which it appears was a mistake. The platoon was divided up earlier, and infused with some Afghan fighters... they mistook each other for the enemy.

A tragic mistake. Sad that anyone dies in war. Of course, it seems that in America Tillman's death is more tragic than any other death, because he gave up MONEY and FAME (obviously the most important thing to Americans), to go to war. I think what EVERY soldier potentially gives up to go to war is more important than money and fame.. their lives.

[rooboy]

19. So you think this would make good propaganda for the Bush regime...

telling a story about how a hometown hero copped a bullet from one of his own? I've only ever seen one movie made about friendly fire, and it was not an uplifting film...

[Baltimoreboy]

26. I've seen friendly fire discussed many times

War movies often address it. Heck, even M*A*S*H touched on it. It is an unfortunate reality of war. It also doesn't minimize his sacrifice.

[rooboy]

41. God, how many times do I have to make my point...

Friendly Fire DOES NOT MAKE GOOD FOX NEWS PROPAGANDA. Ok?

[Baltimoreboy]

43. So?

[Neecy]

44. yep

One of the most powerful books I've read is titled "Friendly Fire" - it's about an Iowa farm couple whose son was killed by friendly fire in Vietnam. It made them anti-war activists, which didn't go over big in their small Iowa farming town. Just getting the facts about how their son died was a huge bureaucratic runaround (and his CO was a fella named Norman Schwartzkopf). Great read if you can still find it.

[leesa]

64. Enemy? What did they do to us?

[Baltimoreboy]

72. Protecting Osama

Unlike Iraq, we had every reason in the world to invade Afghanistan.

[Barkley]

57. Oh, rooboy you're sooooo right!

Those were my very thoughts!

[Tight_rope]

79. High 5 to Rooboy and Barkley!

Faux is only concerned with informing the public with as many lies from the Bushco that it can get out.

[DRoseDARs]

6. It's those damn Lieberals again...

...lieberal military investigators making up lies about the Great American Patriot Pat Tillman. Every true American knows perfectly well he died fighting Enemies of Freedom(TM), battling with them with his bare hands.

[RC]

8. Then the Enemies of Freedom(TM) shot back and killed him...

Justice will only begin to be served when bu$h&co are lock in cells in a federal prison.

[TheWebHead]

9. doesn't this fit the same Nick Berg style black op scenario?

<tinfoil hat>
Can't think of a recent event that spurred more patriotism and support of the military in the U.S. No doubt there was frustration within the administration for Tillman not wanting to do plenty of media in support of military action in both Iraq and Afghanistan...
</tinfoil hat>

[DS1]

24. Thank you, TheWebHead, you inspired me this morning

You inspired me to fire up Flash, still groggy from a long day yesterday, and make this just for ~you~.

[The Backlash Cometh]

10. I'm not surprised, I'm not surprised...

but I am depressed. This whole concept of getting killed by our own, is becoming a metaphor for this war.

[ElectroPrincess]

12. It could only get worse if ...

Damn! Killed by friendly fire and now an AR 15-6 Investigation?!? It could only get worse if he was "fragged" by one his fellow soldiers. Double Damn!

I wish the warmongers would rethink these adventures. The conduct of war itself is a crime against humanity. You couldn't make these tragedies up. I'm so saddened by this latest tidbit of news that will be promptly dropped down the memory hole. :(

[catzies]

58. Welcome to DU, ElectroPrincess!

:hi:

[dbt]

11. The utter, screaming HELL of it is

that there are parents who saw their son volunteer. THEN, he came home in a "transfer tube." NOW, just when they MIGHT be beginning to come back to life, they get word that Pat Tillman was killed by the "Good Guys."

FUCK BU$H
NOW MORE THAN EVER!

:grr:
dbt

And FUCK the Grinning Skulls who installed him!

[Jacobin]

13. It just keeps getting worse, doesn't it

The RWers icons and martyrs are now dying deaths in vain.

[UpInArms]

15. how unutterably sad

guess this makes him one of the "undead"

That same message continues, "The Army has notified his family, so it may come out in the media this weekend."

Army Regulation 15-6 is used as the basis for many investigations requiring a detailed gathering and analyzing of facts, from "fratricide accidents," or friendly-fire incidents, to other matters, including civilian shootings or injuries, accidental weapons discharges or allegations of misconduct.

I suppose the only problem will be how to "spin" this in the media.

[leftchick]

16. I can only imagine how his brother will take this.....

He was in terrible shape at Pat's memorial. Thanks to chimpy* every day brings more sadness for thousands. :(

[Champ]

18. I'm curious?

What makes a shoot out "friendly" and why do they call it "friendly" fire?

[alcuno]

23. It means the bullet came from a US soldier.

Friendly fire comes from your own side; it's considered accidental.

[readmylips]

21. Extremely Sad for the Tillman family and our Country.....

I bet anything Rumbutt and the criminal bushes knew about how Tillman died, and they kept it quiet or made up the story of killed in action just about when Rumbutt's fat butt was on fire in the media. This whole regime are worse than hitler.

[llmart]

22. Those of us who criticized starting a war in Afghanistan....

are now being proved to be right. Al Qaeda is stronger than ever according to recent reports and what people like me said was, "bombing Afghanistan isn't going to do anything to stop terrorists or alleviate the pain of Sept. 11th". It was a knee jerk reaction from the "jerk" in the WH. Barbara Lee had it right.

[yelladawg]

27. bushco even lied about Tillman

Friendy fire isn't.

[SidDithers]

36. Perhaps if the focus had stayed on Afghanistan, instead of Iraq...

Then much of Al Queda, and maybe Osama and Mullah Omar, might not be a continuing threat.

As Richard Clarke said, the war in Iraq detracted from the "War on Terrorism".

Sid

[neocon]

28. Why do liberals hate the military so much?

Pat Tillman is one of the great people that fought and are still fighting in the military. For those of you, actually, for all of you that haven't served here is a little fact. In combat friendly fire is a fact of life. Soldiers are very aware of this, especially amongst the elite operational units such as the Rangers, Special Forces, and Delta's. It is a damn tragedy that such a good guy was lost in that way, however he knew the risks and still signed up. I'm sure that Tillman and his battle buddies never intended to accidentally fire on their own, the military isn't full of murderers as liberals would love everyone to believe. They are valiant men and women that are doing their country and families a great service. And for all of you that will cringe when you read this..... I met Pat Tillman on several occasions, he was a really good guy.

[Champ]

29. I agree Tillman was a great man

I have met him a few times, my grandma even had some classes with him. He was actually an amazing person, but so far it looks like you won't be here long.

[juajen]

39. As far as I'm concerned, he can stay

My answer to that new poster is that I don't hate the military. My family is pro-military and we have good, loyal Americans that have served for generations, going back to the Revolutionary War. However, the truth is, we do love our country very much, and to question everything questionable is to be very patriotic. When the day comes, and, it approaches, that you cannot question your government or the actions of your military, you might as well change America's name to "Swastikaland".

[Champ]

46. I agree with everything you just said(great post)

I agreed with the part of the post he said Pat Tillman was a great man, and this is from personal experience. I first remember him from the 1996 Arizona State Sun Devils team.

[Burma Jones]

30. Not Nearly all of us buddy

Most of us Liberals have great respect for the military. You can't take a very few comments from this thread and make your conclusion. Is it true that Conservatives hate the government so much that they bombed the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City? We all have our extremists, it's just that YOUR extremists tend to kill Americans.


That's painting with a broad brush, do YOU like it?


On Edit: What I don't like or respect is the Civilian leadership that is misusing the military, the chickenhawks. I think I can speak for more than a few of my board-mates on this subject.

[oneighty]

32. I am a liberal

I am a Korean war veteran. I have serious reservations concerning todays armed forces. I believe they could be much better trained and much better paid and much better protected on the battlefield (Armored vehicles, body armor for example.) I also believe tax cuts for the wealthy take money from our military personnel. I also believe our fearless leaders and cheerleaders fighting wars from the bar rooms, stadiums and the White House are full of shit.

180

[Eloriel]

83. And much better taken care of after they're finished serving n/t

[MikeG]

33. You haven't told us anything we don't all know.

We all at least have family members who have served. So you know nothing more than us. And you may want to rethink your name.

[stevedeshazer]

34. I don't hate the military

It is necessary. What is unnecessary is what your Republican friends are doing with our military.

By the way, I don't know a single person who hates the military. Which talk show host gave you the idea that liberals hate the military? Hannity or Limbaugh?

[alcuno]

35. The real question is why do political conservatives hate the military?

Their treatment of members of the armed services is just disgusting; all show and no substance. Those of us who have family members in the military are well aware of what is going on today. We have a government comprised of a pro-war crowd who is willing to hold the coats of those who serve but weren't willing to serve and now do not adequately fund or supply our guys.

I went to school with Pat Tillman and he was a really good guy. You are right; friendly fire happens and I know Pat understood that when he signed up. I pray for his family.

The problem that you are having is that you do not understand irony; there is undeniable irony in Pat's death.

[ElectroPrincess]

37. It's another RW talking point

The liberals respect the military. That's another one liner that you RWers hope that if you repeat it often enough, it will be true.

It's a big lie and you know it :P.

Right wingers LOVE the civilian power brokers in the pentagon. Your top Neo-con leader, Wolfowitz doesn't even keep up with the USA military's body count.

The poor bloody Infantry soldiers, MPs and the smattering of support troops left after Rummy's privatization plans, are treated like "cannon fodder."

You're best described by Don Henley "If dirt were dollars"

Now god's finest creatures
Standing brave and strong
Whistling past the graveyards
Nothing can go wrong ...

Standing at attention
Wrapped in Stars-and-Stipes
The hear distant drummers
And non existant pipes

Today the buck stops no where
No one takes the blame
But you're free to cheat and steal
In anybody's name

If dirt were dollars
We'd all be in the black.

Neo-cons could care less about the average Military troop.

My point: The one's who posture are NOT the true patriots.

Remember - George McGovern was a WWII hero! :-)

[zulchzulu]

42. Why are neocons such stupid, insipid dumb asses

Who said the "liberals" hate the military? Most of us actually suit up and don't pussy out and get Daddy to let us out of it.

[Tight_rope]

81. How true!

When you look at the statistics (Sorry I don't have them...but I know it's out there), most of the people in the military are from middle class or low income families. The rich have the money to send their kids to college. It's been said time and time again by many soldiers who died and those still alive, that they went into the military so that it would pay for college. Sadly enough none of them knew that the rich would be willing to use them as human shields to get to their riches.

"WAR IS SIMPLY AN EXTENSION OF POLITICS BY OTHER MEANS"!

[sendero]

45. "us liberals"

Don't hate the military. We hate the military being misused. But I realize it will take another decade at least for way too many Americans to realize that is exactly what has happened. All of the results of this whole fiasco can and were predicted, not just by the left, but by Bush I and many many retired generals and statesmen.

But you can't tell anything to a moron who thinks he has god on his side, I wonder what kind of mental machinations he is going through now that he has to realize that he doesn't even have the people on his side any more.

[playahata1]

47. I think I have dealt with you before.

To paraphrase from another football "hero": If you think you're so tough and so patriotic, why don't YOU put on a uniform? At least Pat Tillman put his money where his mouth is, so stop hiding behind him and others who chose to serve and get out there your damn self.

[goclark]

50. Don't you paint me with your brush!

"Liberals" do not hate the military!
We love our country and our military with a passion.

I personally dislike the NeoCons and the crooks that are in the WH.
IMO,the ones that I have learned about are narrow minded and dangerous. I am sure that there must be some who have a more compassionate view of the world, I personally have not met that group yet.Perhaps you can find more that think like you do on another board.

This weekend we are recognizing the men and women who were in the military.

My uncle was a Tuskegee Airmen(hope you were able to watch the panel on CSPAN today) and I just came back from placing flowers on the grave of my other uncle who was killed in action in WWII.

Don't you dare paint me with your narrow minded brush!!

[Longhorn]

52. I'm a liberal and my son is a U.S. Marine.

My late father served in the Navy during WW II and my father-in-law is retired Air Force. I completely support the military but I DO NOT support the leadership that chose to unnecessarily involve our military in Iraq and also created the culture of arrogance, belligerence, racism, and hatred that results in such atrocities as prisoner torture, rape, and abuse.

"Friendly Fire" is an unfortunate hazard of military operations. It doesn't make Pat Tillman any less of a hero; it merely adds irony to the tragedy.

[Red State Rebel]

55. I have family in Iraq and it hurts....

that the DU family defiles and curses the good they are trying to do. It's one thing to disagree with this damned action, but to insult our soldiers and be hateful towards them is uncalled for. Unless you know of a specific proven wrong that one of them has done, you don't have the right to curse them as a whole.

My cousin is working in one of the medical facilities treating Americans and Iraqis and my sisters brother in law flies C130's in with supplies for soldiers and Iraqi's. Do they deserve this wrath?

[playahata1]

61. How is what they are doing in Iraq benefitting this country?

This war is NOT about defending freedom or ridding the world of evil. It is about a bunch of arrogant greedheads who do not give a damn about you and me, let alone your relatives who are over there. Understand that before you try to shut people up around here.

[Red State Rebel]

67. You may be able to curse it as a whole, to me it's personal.

Regardless of your politics, when you have family over there it's different.

These are real people doing the job they signed up to do - people I love. The entire issue of the politics of Iraq is a different issue. It's one thing to say I disagree with this war, it's another thing to talk about our soldiers like they are horrible animals because they are over there.

[ElectroPrincess]

65. What?

SaidFred, What's this "DU family" accusation stuff? The vast majority of DU folks come across to me as highly respectful of the military. This (Liberals hate the military), like a RW slogan from Hannity or Limbaugh would use. But, fear not, it won't catch on.

P.S. I have a cousin who just returned from Iraq; and my husband, a Retired Marine has two LTC USMC friends who are there NOW ... yes we are *very* concerned for their safety. And yes we're both democrats, I'll even proclaim that I'm a liberal like the WWII pilot hero George McGovern.

The soldiers, like the rest of the population, fall on a continumn of morality. Many are honest and brave, but there are also the slugs at the opposite end of the scale ... in both the enlisted and officer ranks.

[Red State Rebel]

66. I don't know what threads you've missed...

I can show you some very hurtful anti-military, anti-soldier ones if you would care to look.

[ElectroPrincess]

69. Please don't generalize

I understand your disgust at the heartless feeling from a few folks who are either mean spirited or mis-informed. However, please don't use a few disrespectful posters and generalize it to all of DU.

The RW boards I've been on also have wacko racists that they're embarrassed - don't claime as their own. These extremists embarass both parties because they are not representative of the mainstream ... sane perspectives.

[progressivebydesign]

63. Liberals are the only ones speaking out against the misuse of our troops

Wierd. Liberals, as we're called as a supposed insult, appear to be the REAL pro-troop people. We're the ones that spoke out against the ill-planned, badly-executed, and ultimately flawed wars. We're the ones that KNEW Iraq was going to be a disaster... We're the ones that noticed when our troops were left holding the bag in Afghanistan, while Bush went crazy pushing the war with Iraq.

I reject the cynical attempts to paint liberals as "anti-troop", when in FACT we are the ones that are trying to hold the Bush misadministration for sending them over to these places under political pretenses. Anti-War is ANTI WAR. Not anti-troops! Seems that the people in D.C. that have never served their country, yet are so hot to send our troops to war, are the REAL anti-troop Americans. How about their sending thousands of National Guard troops to Iraq, without proper equipment and training?

Seems to me you have your head screwed on wrong. Turn off the AM radio and read.. not Ann Coulter's books, but read about the world, not through a neocon's eyes... but through human eyes. Maybe you'll finally figure out who REALLY supports the troops. Yeah.. wave a flag, tie a ribbon, and send off your children to die in a Halliburton/Unocal war.

[Rationality]

74. Hey everyone, ignore the trolls

Every time you feed people like these responses, they come back and try to disrupt us again. Just alert them and get them offed.

[ScreamingMeemie]

75. Yes, but rarely are heroes made for consumption by the public...

thanks to the media. I find it hard to believe it took this long to figure that he was killed by friendly fire. Why wreck a good thing with that little tidbit of info.

I think this coming out is just more in the tear down Bush campaign by his corporate buddies.

[Octafish]

76. I'm liberal. I'm proud or the United States armed forces.

I also saw Pat Tillman play. He was a good football player and a good soldier.

I thank him and all the men and women in the service of our country. They've kept ours a free nation.

I'm proud to say all of that.

Please don't put words in my, or any other Liberal's, mouth.

BTW: A hearty welcome to DU, neocon! Some handle ya got there! WTF ya been?

[Walt Starr]

31. This is a perfect symbol for the Bush execution of the "war on teror"

We're killing ourselves.

Fuckers.

[Poll_Blind]

38. You beat me to it...

Here's a guy who gave up a future most people would trade their legs for to fight this war. In the end, he's killed by his own comrades in the fog of war. Net/net for me is he's dead dead dead and he can't give out any more hugs, laugh at or tell jokes, enjoy a sunset. For him, an eternal night with a wood lid and six feet of sod between his eyes and the twinkling stars. Regardless of how I interpret his politics, it was another wasted life.

That's right, completely wasted. In war, soldiers sometimes die in battles for places no one remembers or hears about. I don't think their lives are wasted- they were a small part of a much greater plan which was necessarily executed. This war is for nothing. NOTHING.

Bush has set up a gallows for our sons and daughters and every time the blade come whistling down the terminal blow echos throughout the square not with the sound of meat and bone tearing but with the cha-CHING of a cash register.

Fuckers, indeed. Fuckers, eternal.

-PB

[juajen]

48. Very good post.

N/T

[Philostopher]

73. I'll tell you what -- he gave up more than most in another way.

If what his brother said at his funeral was right, Tillman also was agnostic or atheist. He didn't just give up this life -- he gave up all life, since he apparently didn't believe in an afterlife. Being agnostic myself, that makes me that much sadder for him as an individual, regardless of his reasons, or the turds at the top attempting to exploit what he chose to do. He went into this believing that if he died, it was all over. On a purely human level, that's a pretty devastating thing to think about, without all the other considerations. It struck me more than the thought he was willing to give up money and notoriety -- he was willing to give up literally everything.

[zulchzulu]

40. This reminds me of Vietnam "friendly fire" executions of officers

Maybe Tillman was getting to big for his britches with some jarhead... it sucks any way you look at it.

What a waste.

[playahata1]

49. Our friend "neocon" from post #28 has just gotten the boot.

Good job, moderators.

[gratuitous]

56. Story dated midnight May 29

So I guess it doesn't count as a "Friday information dump," this administration's favorite time for releasing bad news.

And, since it's a holiday weekend, this news will disappear completely down the memory hole.

[paulk]

62. tragic

and BushCo showed their willingness to use any tragedy for it's propaganda value. Will they take back his silver star?

ps - that's a serious question - I thought there had to be enemy troops involved to win a silver star.

[Democat]

77. Bush supporters make fun of Max Cleland, will they make fun of Tillman?

Republicans like to make fun of Cleland because they say he was injured in a friendly fire incident - what about Tillman?

[specialsas]

78. Likely killed or killed - which is it azcentral?

Making a headline like this without proof is plain dumb. The things these morans will do for a headline...

[Tight_rope]

80. Sadly enough...this is why we are out of bullets! n/t

[RetroLounge]

82. A Sad, Sad kick to the top

:kick:

RL