Bishop Would Deny Rite for Defiant Catholic Voters

[NashVegas]

The Roman Catholic bishop of Colorado Springs has issued a pastoral letter saying that American Catholics should not receive communion if they vote for politicians who defy church teaching by supporting abortion rights, same-sex marriage, euthanasia or stem-cell research.

Several bishops in the United States have warned that they will deny communion to Catholic politicians who fail to stand with the church, but Bishop Michael J. Sheridan of Colorado Springs is believed to be the first to say he will extend the ban to Catholic voters.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/14/national/14bishop.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1084540094-NhckRh0QNvU71JBfTf93GA

Great, so we're going medieval. Rome wouldn't be able to make this kind of pronouncement overtly, too many would say, "fuck off." But coming from within the states, it's a different deal.

There's no way the church fathers can directly ask parishoners "who do you vote for?" Noooo, that would be too much like another Inquisition (although they can go see who their parishoners are donating to). What they can do is put entire districts under interdict (they'd need Rome's blessing for that) and deny all rites.

In medieval times, interdict was a way of sowing unrest in a land, and signaling others to invade at will. John Lackland went through this a couple of times, and ended up on his knees each time.

[displacedtexan]

1. And they would know how one voted...?

Is your vote a venal sin or a mortal sin?

I read this somewhere a few months ago (I think it was American Demographics): If Italians didn't practice birth control or have abortions, the country's population would double in 15 years.

[NashVegas]

5. They Won't

But they can go online and lookup what candidates you donate to, if you donate more than, say $50 in a quarter.

[ze_dscherman]

9. Italy is the country with the lowest birth rate in Europe

And certainly not because Italians abstain ...

[emad]

2. Why anyone still buys into this crap is beyond me.

Maybe they just turn up the brainwashing heat in an election year because they're about to go down the pan in Italy at the murder trial of Roberto Calvi (God's banker/Banco Ambrosiano scandal) and are being bankrupted in the US, UK and most european coutnries for covering up paedophile sex abuse for the last 50 years.

[noahmijo]

3. Oh please

Everyone knows the Catholic Church is so out of touch with reality today it's laughable. I doubt my priest is going to deny my communion even if I were to tell him a thousand times that I plan on voting for Kerry.

Heh he'd probably say "hey me too"

[DiverDave]

4. Fuck them

pedophile enabler bastards.
And another thing, how does a celibate guy presume to give advice on marriage??
I never could figure that one out...

[calimary]

11. This lifelong Catholic could never figure that one out either.

I remember beginning to question this during Father Flanagan's catechism class, when he'd talk about marriage and all, and I think I was probably ten. I kept thinking to myself - you're a priest. You don't have a wife or kids. How the heck can you possibly know, or tell everybody else who DOES have a marriage and kids? Never got a satisfactory answer to that one, either. EVER.

[MaineDem]

17. I had the same question in high school

I went to an all-girls school but we had a Jesuit from the boys school come and speak to us about "marriage". I remember it being a total waste of time although I can't recall anything he talked about (this was 35 years ago.) I DO remember questioning what gave him the expertise to discuss any of this.

[0007]

65. I questioned the masturbation venial sin and got kicked out!!

Father Hayes ask me if masturbation was a venial sin or a moral sin. I said it was natural and no sin should be attached. He ask me if I masturbated. I said everyday and sometimes twice a day. He then lectured me severely and tried to make me feel guilty. Two weeks later he again ask me the same question and I gave Father Hayes the same answer. He kicked me out. I Never went back neither.

[BatPope]

21. Catholicism is Insane.

'Nuff said.

Why anyone with any shred of logic in their frigging heads, would be a Catholic of ALL religions, is beyond the hell outta me.

I guess some peope can over look murder, theft, racial dividing, ethnic cleansing, raping, prosalytyzing, bribery, innocent martyrdom, suicide attacks, wars, knowledgable famine, increased global tensions, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...

Then again....there ARE Conservative's out there, who have irrational homophobias about people loving one another.

~*~*~*~

"Father McKinley! (huff) Father McKinley! (huff) "

"Yes, my son?"

"(huff) It's happened!"

"What has my Son? You don't look so well...perhaps..."

"No! The most horrible thing happened!"

"Hum? This is...?"

"It's disgusting..."

"Yes?"

"It's vile..."

"Go on."

"It's blasphemous!"

"Well, out with it!"

"Father. A homosexual, native-american, Jewish man working at an abortion clinic, where he researches stem-cells, just married a young Muslim from Palestine, who's been known to sell condoms to lesbian couples, who help give rape counseling, to rape victims unmarried to the Rapist!"

"......Get me the PRESIDENT!!!"

*Then the Preist, put on his pointy hat and jumped into the batmobile and raced down the street!!!!*

[alcuno]

28. As a Catholic, I don't consider it a choice.

The Church has had profound lapses in the past and will continue to do so. I don't blame the faith, I blame the Church hierarchy.

[struggle4progress]

33. The Church teachings on social justice are rather good.

That brought me to the Catholic Church several times. It's actually got some good progressive folks inside. Of course, some of what's going on looks a bit strange to me, and I've never ended up becoming Catholic.

[Junkdrawer]

66. Myself and all four of my brothers left in the 70s...

And the church races to make itself even more irrelevant. Go figure - Oh well, I hear they do well with the uneducated. :shrug:

[Gman]

6. As a Catholic, Your Excellency...

You can kiss my ass you Opus Dei mother f*&ker.

[yellowcanine]

7. Ok, as we have a secret ballot - how are the bishops going to know?

If the person confesses, then the priest is obliged to forgive him and serve communion - if the person doesn't confess, the priest isn't going to know. By the way, I assume this means the bishops would deny communion against people who "failed to stand with the church" on the Pope's opposition to the war on Iraq. Hmmmm?

[dflprincess]

36. Actually, if the priest has doubts about your Confession

he can refuse absolution and communion. If I went to Confession and admited to having voted for prochoice politicians (horrors!) it wouldn't be a valid confession unless I fully intended to mend my "sinful" ways. There is no point in confessing a "sin" if you intend to commit it again.

[iamjoy]

8. Is This Too Radical?

If the Catholic Church is wading into the area of politics in a manner which could be considered partisan (most Democrats support Reproductive Rights, most Republicans oppose) should they lose their tax exempt status?

What about the death penalty?

I think the Catholic Church needs to remove the post from its own eye before it starts picking the splinter in its neighbors
(sorry if I mangled that quote - wouldn't be any worse than Dubya)

And, I mean no offense to sensible Catholics who adhere to its teachings but don't think they need to enforce their beliefs on the rest of us.

[Tellurian]

10. The Bishop is probably getting kickbacks for every one as bounty...

bolstering the finances of the Catholic church.

[UpInArms]

12. when in the world did a church get the ability

to look at ballots?

And if the church is so "pro-life", would not a vote for a death penalty Republican be a no-no also?

[AndyTiedye]

32. They Can Tell Who You're Canvassing For And Who You Donated To

[gratuitous]

13. So are the Catholics endorsing specific candidates

Good bye tax exemption!

A curious laundry list of "forbidden" positions, as well. You have to be against abortion, same sex marriage, stem cell research and euthanasia. Not a peep about what the correct stance is on the death penalty or the war in Iraq (on the eve of which the Pope told Stupidhead that he would go into Iraq "without God"). I wonder why some positions are forbidden, but others seem more, well, optional.

Pilate said to Jesus, "What is truth?"

[Quahog]

15. The Catholic church is stauncly anti-death penalty

I would be willing to bet, though, that this bishop in Colorado Springs (there's a surprise!) is all for it. He is clearly a schismatic.

[Quahog]

14. This is ridiculous on so many levels

I've talked about this with regard to Kerry with our pastor, and what this bishop is suggesting is schismatic. Never mind the issue of how priests are supposed to KNOW how people voted. Sacraments cannot be denied to any baptized and confirmed Catholic unless the priest knows beyond the shadow of a doubt that a person is in an unrepentant state of mortal sin, and this is a thing which it is virtually impossible for the priest to know. A Catholic who lives in open defiance of doctrine is still subject to excommunication, but when was the last time the Church excommunicated anyone? Come on, if they tossed out everyone who openly defies the doctrine on birth control, the churches would be empty, priests would be saying mass for themselves.

We had a church mission during Lent, and the Franciscan priest who spoke made a great point. The Church has two parts. One is eternal, immutable, and never in need of reform, because it comes from God. The other part is temporal, volatile, and constantly in need of reform, because it is of man, and therefore is characterized by all of man's foibles. Thus, you have people who are "serving God" in his church who spread confusion among the laity with such pronouncements as, "Don't chew the host, you're biting baby Jesus," or, "People who vote for democrats should be denied the sacraments." These people, per Father Almagno, are insane. Sadly, to most people outside of the Church (and even more sadly, many within it), this makes the Chruch seem insane.

[Beware the Beast Man]

18. Thank you!

As a Catholic, I've found it very hard to post here as of late. I think what is going in inside the Church today, especially in the US with the election year, is insane. The bishops do not have the right to deny anyone communion for their political affiliation. This is where I stand: between these right-wing revisionists and folks weho think the Church is full of corrupt grifters and child molesters. It seems as of late I have nowhere to turn. Thank you for putting this so eloquently.

[2Design]

42. Go to church wear our kerry button and enjoy God

These guys are human and seem to NOT be doing God's will. They are sick.

None of them have actually denied anyone communion. They are just using their "normal guilt gremlins" to try to influence things. The ones speaking out are probably the most repressed themselves. Or pedophiles....

Just go to church receive communion and know that God will give you grace because you are a child of God and God loves you.

[4_Legs_Good]

20. Well said

I hope His Emminence Colorado Springs gets the boot, but good.

david

[Maeve]

48. It's priests like that Franciscan that keep the church going

They actually "get" Jesus. It's not about having power over people and making them "be good"--at least, it's not supposed to be.

But from the first there were idiots in the church because there were human beings.

[Judi Lynn]

16. Some Protestant Americans were actually afraid of the idea of electing

a Catholic President when John F. Kennedy was running, as they were worried the Catholic Church would try to dictate his politics. If I'm not mistaken, he assured people he was surely his own man, permanently. They still had suspicions, however.

Now where would they have gotten an idea like that?

[CO Liberal]

19. The Springs Diocese Needs to Lose Its Tax-Exempt Status - NOW!!!!

Speaking as an ex-Catholic, I find the bishop's actions inexcusable. He needs to worry about the pepophile priests first, and forget about serving his RepubliKKKan masters.

[iamjoy]

31. How Do We Do This?

I am serious, how do we go about drafting a petition and getting this done. I know several groups that would help circulate it. This is de facto using the pulpit to endorse political candidates something I thought religious organizations can't do and remain tax exempt.

[2Design]

43. Go to the tax department in your city/state and ask

I am sure states and cities could use more taxes.....getting these churches to pay taxes would be great. They make a lot of money. They want everyone to give them 10% and use powers of persuassion for that.

[Baltimoreboy]

53. Do you oppose Freedom of worship?

I mean it is in the Constitution.

[2Design]

62. no problem with freedom of worship just when they make it political they

do not deserve tax exemption status as non-political religious organization if they are going to try to force elections to their agenda.

Welcome to DU....

[BattyDem]

22. If the Catholic Church is going to use its ...

money and power to influence the electoral process and/or intimidate people into voting one way or another, their tax-exempt status needs to be revoked immediately!

The reality is ... the church would have no way of knowing who people voted for unless they "investigated" those parishioners and that's very disturbing. No one would stand for it if their boss or their landlord investigated their political affiliations, yet it's alright if their church does? I don't think so! The RCC is going to self-destruct if it continues to use these strong-arm tactics to "control" the lives of Catholics.

While they have a right to preach to their congregations about the church's positions on social issues, they don't have a right to blackmail those people into voting a certain way. This is America and although our Constitution is on shaky ground these days, there is still a separation of church and state. No one is allowed to blackmail or intimidate people into voting for a particular candidate or party, not even the Catholic Church! :grr:

If you want to worship in their church and they want you to pledge that you're against abortion, stem-cell research, same-sex marriage, etc., fine ... that's their right. It's also your right to tell them to shove it! But if they want you to pledge that you'll vote a certain way (i.e. the way they tell you to vote), that's interfering with the electoral process. Once they make your voting "habits" a condition of membership, they have crossed the line.


On edit: By the way, I was raised Catholic, so I'm not trying to offend any Catholics with my post. I don't mean to condemn your religion or anything like that. :) I just get so frustrated because the church's refusal to come out of Dark Ages on social issues was the main reason I lost interest while in my early teens. Sheridan's "demands" are extreme even by Catholic standards!

[lostnfound]

23. Is Colorado a swing state? nt

[robbedvoter]

24. Pope condemned the war. Are warmongers denied communion too?

GOP-ers pro-choice?

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

63. Good point.

Plus are those bishops that resisted investigating sexual abuse of children by priests also denied communion?

A recovering Catholic.

[salonghorn70]

25. As A Methodist

Where Communion is open to all, I don't understand how this would work. Would each person be given a list of candidates before he approaches Communion and be asked to check off the candidates that he voted for? Then would it be reviewed by a Priest? Or would a Communicant have to do a punch card ballot as he enters Mass that would have to be machine reviewed before Communion was allowed. What if there were hanging chads? Would the Communicant be allowed a recount? Would he be able to appeal to the Vatican? What if the Priest invoked Bush vs. Gore? What would happen if the Communicant could not remember who he voted for?
:) :) :) :) :)

[TankLV]

60. Ha! - good one! - That conga line at the end of the mass is long enough -

so mass is going to last all day now, while they all do the checking?

How about all the people who take communion and rush out of church right away, instead of saying for about 10 more minutes?

Need a desk and booth up at the altar. I wonder how the new designs will clash with all the crucifixes and such.

Will they have queing lines like at the bank?

How about express lanes?

Fuck these bishops! They want a schism, "bring it on" I say!

[arwalden]

26. Bishop Michael J. Sheridan Is A Sack Of Pig Shit

[GoldenOldie]

27. The Fantasy Land of Bishop Sheridan

I don't know what world this Bishop lives in but it confirms he knows little of his flock. There is as much variance in what each Catholic personnally accepts from the Vatican down to the local priest. Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, etc., will attend the church with a priest/minister and congregation that most resemble themselves and their needs and beliefs. If Catholics accepted total rule of the Vatican, their would be 15-20 children per household...is the Bishop going to check if families are using birth control.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CHIMO]

30. Catholic

What is catholic in this?
Since the present leader of the church moved in he has moved to break up the union between the various catholic churches/religions. He has discombobuluated the Jesuits because they thought.

I call call this the Roman Catholic religion.

Nothing universal here.

Good point in removing tax benefits, especially when I think how hard JFKI had to fight to prove his stand for the separation between church and state.

[dflprincess]

34. The Daily Show did a joke along this line last week

the punch line was something like "Immediately, the number of Catholics in the US dropped from 60 million to 3."

[Bigmack]

35. "Doin' Eternity on a meat rap"...

I was raised Irish Catholic in Detroit... I'm an American now.... I faced many threats of Hell.

I had long since given up belief in Medieval Fantasy Occult Practices, when George Carlin asked the burning question.... (paraphrased)..

"For centuries, eating meat on friday was a mortal sin - Hell time. When the church changed the rules and removed the meatless friday rule, what happened to the souls in Hell who'd gotten there by eating meat?"

What's the difference between the Fundie Xians who will vote for Bush because he a "Christian", and the Catholics who won't vote for Kerry because he supports choice? Nothing.... both morons!

[Postman]

37. How about we wear "Vote Kerry" T-shirts to mass....

and see what the reaction is from the priest...

I'm This close <> to not ever stepping inside another Catholic Church or giving them any money.

[2Design]

41. go to church if you like it ...just don't give money

If you like your church and the rituals, then go. Church is for you, not them. God knows you are there. That is all that matters.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[2Design]

39. tempted to go to church just to receive communion with pro choice

shirt on.

Or a button. March for Womens lives. The church is so screwed up. I used to go for the right priest sermons, but when that priest left, i left again.

Being divorced (civil legality)they say you can't receive communion. I do anyway. They don't know God or Christ. If this is truly a sacrament with God's grace then I know God would want me to have his/her blessing.

The more I hear about churches and christians lately the less and less I have any respect for them. So many of them do not act according to Christ's loving teachings.

They have gone back to the fire and brimstone days....

Christ was such a forgiving and giving figure and yet these fanatics are not anywhere near that.

MAybe have to do my part and start going to church in time for communion and wear my March for Women's lives pin......LOL

[2Design]

40. Take action everyone on DU receive communion

Everyone on the DU board should go to the nearest catholic church this sunday and receive communion. Protestants, jews, muslims, atheist, whatever your spiritual trip.

Go to catholic church with pro kerry shirts or buttons and receive communion.

Directions for non-catholic (based on my last visit over 7 years ago)
When everyone goes up for communion, you go up and put out your hand palm up to receive the communion on your hand. Say Amen. You can do the wine too, if they still do that, or just shake your head no. Some have you kneel and some places you stand up. They have people besides the priest give out communion too now......

So don't worry if your catholic or not. God knows. That is really all that counts.

Have fun. Wear Kerry button. Receive communion.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

44. Is it time for another church split?

Can the Roman Catholic Church afford mass exodus?

[dawn]

45. This is so unbelievably stupid.

And they call other religions cults?

Sorry, I grew up Catholic, so I can say what I want about it. They try to control every bit of your life -- you can't eat meat during lent, can't screw, can't be gay, can't do this, can't be pro-choice, but now, they want to tell you who to vote for?

it's comedy!

[depakid]

46. Funny how the death penalty wasn't mentioned

I thought being pro-death penalty was against church dogma too....

[0rganism]

47. And what about the invasion of Iraq? The pope was pleading for restraint

Perhaps those who support candidates who promote the wanton destruction of other nations should be denied communion, too?

[Norbert]

49. I'm a good enough Catholic to know one thing.

If the parishoners in that diocese were to refuse to put their offerings in the collection basket this would create quite s stir. Roman Catholics are far from being in the shrub voting block. There are Catholics that to not believe in the Church's stance on birth control, there are those that have family members that would benefit from stem cell research, there are gay Catholics and pro-choice Catholics. A hit in the pocketbook would send a message to this bishop and believe me the Catholic clergy looks at balance sheets thoroughly. If he thinks he can make this stick he is living in a drream world.

[NashVegas]

52. Excellent!

Hadn't thought of that.

[dArKeR]

50. Colorado Bishop Warns Catholics - CBS

Catholics who vote for politicians in favor of abortion rights, stem-cell research, euthanasia or gay marriage may not receive Communion until they recant and repent in the confessional, the Roman Catholic Bishop of Colorado Springs said.

Bishop Michael Sheridan's pronouncement was the strongest yet from a U.S. bishop in the debate over how faith should influence Catholics in this election year.

The discussion of withholding Holy Communion had previously been limited to politicians themselves.

Sheridan made his remarks in a May 1 pastoral letter published in the diocese's newspaper. He said he singled out abortion, stem-cell research, euthanasia and gay marriage for criticism because they are "intrinsically evil."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/14/politics/main617519.shtml

Bishop Michael Sheridan  (Photo: CBS/AP) - (Reading first impression faces Sheridan looks "intrinsically evil" to me. With yesterdays 'Vatican discourages interfaith marriages' it's time for me to find a new faith.
http://iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=3&art_id=qw1084532761740B213&set_i ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...

------------------------------

[e-mail]
The Diocese of Colorado Springs
228 North Cascade Avenue
Colorado Springs, CO  80903


Michael J. Sheridan,

With, 'Colorado Bishop Warns Catholics' and yesterdays 'Vatican discourages interfaith marriages' it's time for me to find a new faith.

MyName

http://www.diocesecs.org/default.htm
http://%5c%5cwww.diocesecs.org%5chome%20page%5cparishes.htm/

[dArKeR]

55. Corrected link: Vatican discourages interfaith marriages

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=554520#557138

[keep_left]

51. I'm not surprised this is happening in Colorado.

And in Colorado Springs, in particular. The archbishop of Denver (Chaput) is confirmed Opus Dei. It cannot be an accident that the bishop in Colorado Springs (home to "Dr." James "Holocaust-denier" Dobson et al.) comes out with this little jeremiad just a couple weeks after Chaput pulled a similar stunt with regard to pro-choice Catholic politicians. Chaput went as far as to condemn politicians for even supporting family planning! That's pretty arrogant, not to mention moronic. Not even far-right people in the Church support that view. When was the last time you saw lots of 12-child families in a Catholic church?

I don't know what planet these people are on, but that cr*p will never fly with most of the big money contributors to the Church--with the exception of nazis like Tom Monaghan (Domino's Pizza founder, ousted by the company for being too controversial). Even the absolutely nuts "Catholic" media outfits like EWTN keep all discussion of birth control off the network until 2 AM because they know it has no support and they'll end up with an audience of three people.

[Ratty]

54. Give me a good old fashioned Jehovah's Witness any day

Sure, they bother you on Sunday morning knocking at your door. Sometimes they stop you on the street and offer you a tract. BUT THEY DON'T VOTE. They don't tell their members how to vote. They consider politics "Earthly" and stay out of it.

Now I've been rude to Jehovah's Witnesses on more than one occasion. I think I regret that now. No more answering the door naked for me. Next one I see I'll give 'em a nice big kiss and a thank you.

[Raster]

56. all along the watchtower...

[steely]

57. Maybe in another 2000 years they'll get their stuff straight?

As one who was raised catholic in a catholic neighborhood, I never really felt a part or truly embraced by the church - too much dogma. Mom used to say "I follow the church, not the man." - I knew what she meant.

There just seemed to be too much inflexibility, but then there would be changes. Masses held in Latin - poof. No eating before cummunion - poof. Mom was excommunicated for marrying a Lutheran - she'd sneak us in to church as kids - felt wierd - then she re-marries a catholic, "confesses?" - and suddenly it's alright? Her son could attend cub scouts because I was a part of the National Parish?? For a single parent with no car, trying to do right in raising kids - this had to suck. Years later - my wife approaches her priest to discuss IVF - he was apoplectic - (Jack a**). My little list goes on and on.

so much for separation of church and state - I assumed it was to work both ways. They'd (the church) do better by shutting up - why not speak out against * instead - people'd be banging their doors down to get in.

sorry for the tirade.

[Blasphemer]

58. Can they be sued?

Seriously, it's time to take these people to court. If a Catholic is donating money to their church which is supposedly a not for profit, nonpolitical entitity and is subsequently being denied Communion based on his or her political views, they should have some kind of recourse. I know yanking the tax exempt staus is a tricky business because lots of churches with political leanings on both sides of the aisle engage in some sort of politicking but the Catholic church has taken things too far. They need to be held accountable.

[DarbyUSMC]

59. Uhh, they left out Catholics who use birth control. Hear the echo?

The church is about empty. Did they say people who commit adultry? OK, now it's totally empty.

:thumbsdown:

[cap]

61. 60% of Catholics support abortion rights

that's a lotta Catholics to kick out of the Church.

[goforit]

64. These guys really think they can push anyone around!!Unbelievable.

:argh: