Photo may show intelligence officers in charge (New photo)

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/

Suspect in prison abuse scandal seen in picture exclusive to NBC

Spc. Charles A. Graner Jr., leaning against the wall and labeled as No. 1, identified four other soldiers in this photograph (Nos. 4, 5, 7 and 8) as military intelligence officers. No. 2 is a civilian translator.

WASHINGTON - Abusive treatment under the supervision of military intelligence officers may have been intentionally used as part of the interrogation of Iraqi captives at the Abu Ghraib prison, according to a previously unpublished photograph of U.S. soldiers and other personnel obtained by NBC News.

The photograph was taken during the interrogation of several Iraqi prisoners who are depicted naked in a heap on the floor, according to a military police officer who faces a court-martial in connection with alleged abuses at the notorious facility on the outskirts of Baghdad.

The officer, Spc. Charles A. Graner Jr., 35, of Greene County, Pa., is leaning against the wall in the photograph, which was provided by his attorney, Guy Womack.

Graner identified four other soldiers in the photograph, labeled Nos. 4, 5, 7 and 8 in the copy provided to NBC News, as military intelligence officers, who he said were in charge of interrogations at the prison. A civilian translator is labeled No. 2, and Graner is No. 1.

more

[warrior1]

1. Number 4

is a woman

[warrior1]

2. also

there's another one above number 8, and maybe above 3

[Just Me]

10. Give me a freakin' break,...

,...please,...

[salin]

61. the shirtless #4

is a woman? I would need some eyesight help to make that call.

[drfemoe]

71. deleted

repeat

[Ediacara]

127. this is a lightened version of that image

#4 is wearing a skirt and a tan short sleaved shirt

[Ediacara]

130. And a close up

[Just Me]

159. And is thicker-bodied than #5 with apparently hairy legs. n/t

[pinto]

3. see also:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1595766

[dArKeR]

4. I can't believe the DUers can overlook the obvious. ALL interogations are

recorded. Haven't you ever seen a cop or military movie/TV show? ALL interogations are recorded. Where are the military tapes? Where are the military blackmail photos?

[0007]

8. ......and there is that white chair, I wonder if that's the chair Berg

sat in?

[Just Me]

14. I don't remember a white chair,...do you? n/t

[NNN0LHI]

16. See post # 15 n/t

[bushgottago]

115. White Plastic Chairs in Prison

It would be logical for a prison to have white plastic chairs. They are light and if a prisoner got hold of one it wouldn't be as good of a weapon as a wood or metal chair.

But - what the hell are terrorists doing with PLASTIC CHAIRS? Doesn't seem like terrorist decor to me!

[Judi Lynn]

26. To my untrained eye, it couldn't look more similar. Glad you noticed. n/t

[dArKeR]

28. Those chairs are made in Taiwan and China. I'm sure. I've seen them

made in the plastics factories in Taiwan.

[kittykitty]

88. Those white chairs are the most ubiquitous things on the planet

I've seen pictures of them at the North Pole, my sister's pictures from Kathmandu, Tibet, nomad tents, --they are everywhere on earth.

[abracadabra]

147. are YELLOW WALLS the most ubiquitous on the planet too?

add 1+1 and I get creepy.

Add the fat ass merc soldier ex jock interogaters and visualize a ski mask and
get 1+1+1= sickeningly creepy

A Q don't eat Mc Donalds fatass food and the body types of the henchmen in the execution video do not typify AQ --usually see them in loose clothes not tight with rubbing thighs, never see them in American issue Combat boots
--I don't think they can supersize on the run and enjoy an overindulgent diet on the run-
and why would the henchmen stand in the same ease stance that is used in the American Armed forces????


1+1+1+1+1+1=??????

[Aussie_Hillbilly]

166. Too much tinfoil

is bad for your health. And DU.

Yellow walls are pretty ubiquitous. If it was Al-Qaeda (real or fake) they could be expected to search out a filming set as close in appearance to Abu Ghraib as possible. They are smart, and know the power of symbolism.

Fat ass mercs? Why on earth would the CIA (or other US agency) have to use Westerners in their snuff films when there are plenty of disposable unemployed Iraqi goons roaming around?

I noticed the killers were bulky too, but shapeless. IMO they were padded up to prevent US surveillance from getting information from their body sizes and shapes. No point wearing masks if other identifying information is leaking out. I think the poor camera focusing and low quality footage was deliberate too. Al-Qaeda are educated, and wear even more tinfoil than we do - they wouldn't live more than a few minutes otherwise.

Plausible deniablity is a cardinal virtue in the CIA, I know, but none of the points you raised are even suspicious.

1+1+1+1+1+1=six. Not particularly impressive. I'm not buying the official line on Nick Berg's death, but posts like the one I'm replying to do nothing for DU's image with visitors!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

169. i've said it before "we need smarter guys in our intelligence agencies"

remember the mispelled "uranium" container found in the back seat of a taxi in turkey near the iraqi border.....jays'us and the **pristine** passport of one of the 911 hijackers found on a street in manhattan on 9/12 (give me a fucking break!) and the forged "niger yellowcake" documents...and countless other blunders of our US intel??????

and the "aluminum tubes" for centrifuge use to produce nucler bombs and WMD's and John O'Neil and on and on and on???


oh please...lets not make the repukes think we're all mad tinfoilhatters

[Aussie_Hillbilly]

179. You are quite right.

The CIA has dropped the ball repeatedly in this war. I expected WMD to be 'found' within days of the invasion. What are they doing?

I'm not saying they wouldn't kill Nick Berg as a black-op for uniting the US public. It's quite possible, even likely. Or maybe Al-Qaeda really did it. Or Cuba/Iran/Syria/China/Israel did it to keep the war burning. :shrug:

What I won't believe is that the points raised in this thread have any substance.

If the CIA killed Nick Berg, they hired/tricked/coerced some Iraqis to do it somewhere private, and killed them afterwards. It doesn't take a genius to figure out a white man posing as an Arab is a disaster waiting to happen. Especially if the video has to stand up to scrutiny by millions of real Arabs.

And doing it in their own prison with cameras and potential leaks all around? No one is that dumb. Even Bush himself could have thought of that.

[Just Me]

178. Well, I view this as an exploration.

Why would fully exploring suspect situations somehow dimish anyone's image? Moreover, if "image" is a greater concern than the exploration of facts and theories,...well, hell, why bother?

Will an exploration of a particular situation at times lead to ambiguous and ubiquitous even seemingly bizarre points and considerations? Well, of course. So what? Trying to ascertain the truth requires viewing a matter from alot of different angles.

No offense.

[Name removed]

206. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pale Blue Dot]

215. The tinfoil is a sign of the times, my friend

We live in a country in which the current administration has been shown to be liars about practically everything. We live in a country in which the press in corporately controlled and cannot be trusted. SO when informed US citizens know that they are being lied to and that they cannot trust the press to push for the truth, they come up with their own theories.

In other words, the conspiracy theories are a sign of the times we live in, and IMO should not be discouraged wholesale.

[abracadabra]

216. -DU image??take a look at your own post

What kind of image is your Star of David?
Don't you think people will think we're all Jewish if they see your post?
ooooh--better fix that but quick-

Tinfoil?
No, Reynolds Wrap...I mean Rummy's Wrap(or should I say Rummy's "rap".
Fatass Supersized Mercenaries can't pull off being A-rab teraa ists--even with ski masks--
you see their thighs rub-

Gimmie a break will ya !!!!and feel free to tell me about "image" when you take off your Star of David...
ps--there is nothing against the rules in this post ...
(Some poster attakkks me for giving a bad "image" to visitors and I do have the right to point out their hypocrisy ).

Gudday Mite !!

Question EVERYTHING you hear coming out of this admin's corporate media.

[snooper2]

200. I used to have a white chair like that..

Once they get really dirty they are hard to clean. Something about that white chair plastic they are made of.

Like, oil stain would just streak into the plastic.

Damn white chairs...

[sofa king]

123. I hate those chairs!

Those are the very shittiest of my deck chairs, those meted out to drunken latecomers when they arrive to revel at my satanic domestic revelries.

No, seriously, I know that chair, and it sucks--no back support whatsoever. And I really do give out the better ones to the people I like. No comfy chairs for the enemies of my state--And long live The People's Democratic Rentership of Arlington!

[crossroads]

OMG! I missed that...

Went back and looked at the photo and there it sits...just glaring... in the prison pic! :scared: {{{{{shivers}}}}}

[Occulus]

117. perhaps....

the military does things a bit... differently.

[dArKeR]

167. The Media are a bunch of Whores if NOT one questions this! Every

interrogation is taped and put on a database. Then they analyze and cross matach key words to find patterns. Just like they do for all emails and phone calls in the world. Don't you remember the story about 5 days ago about the man trying to buy a car in Oklahoma. His name turned up on a credit list chech and the OK owner called the FBI. He was NOT any person the FBI was looking for but the OK dealer still refused to sell him a car. The guy asked the FBI why he was on the list and they said maybe because 'phonetics'. (Official response.)

[WillyT]

5. Kick !!!

Ass!!!

:nuke:

[dArKeR]

6. I think the pics are male Iraqi adults forces to have oral sex with

children and animals. I think you'll find this true. Just think of the most dirty sick thing you can imagine at that's what it probably is. Since we are told body, nudity and sexual relations are the most embarrassing things for Arab people. This is what I believe was done to humilitate them. But I also believe the bulk of pictures were taken in the interrogation rooms not in the hallways. The hallways were just the 'warm up.'

[Just Me]

11. Are you looking at the same pic that I am? n/t

[dArKeR]

24. I mean the pics that were looked at by Congress in the top secret room.

And does anyone think the Top Secret room used for Nuclear documents and stuff was neccessary? Were they expecting Al Qaeda to break in and have a look too?

[drfemoe]

101. It was reported

that protocol was requested by Congress members so any subsequent *leaks* could not be blamed on any of them.

[The Stranger]

160. Really? Where was this reported?

Do you have a link?

[drfemoe]

175. no .. sorry

I use http://news.google.com which references thousands of news sources. Shortly after the private viewing was announced, I read more than one reference stating that was the rationale .. don't even remember what day that was. Things have moved so quickly and so many reports have been published...

I did find this >>
<snip> The pictures -- contained on 12 discs -- were brought to the Capitol in a locked bag and were to be returned to the Pentagon on Wednesday night because, Warner said, they are "evidentiary material" in the criminal investigation. <snip>
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-na-photos13may13,1,5504234.story?coll=la-home-headlines

It's possible the earlier reports I read were not entirely accurate or telling the whole story about the secure screening. If I come across that original explanation somewhere, I'll try to remember to post here.

[The Stranger]

182. I think some in Congress (with backbone) wanted the photos relesed.

So the Pentagon didn't want digital or hard copies getting distributed. They never lost custody of them, just leading the kept Congress people in and out in a single file, orderly line.

[goodhue]

7. huge kick

this must get out
those in charge are MI not MP

[PaDUer]

25. That's right...

it was in a couple of articles and also appeared in our local papers. These events that are occurring all "reek" from high hell..There's a lot of covering up going on, and someone's working overtime in doing so..Guess they don't like the terms "war crimes" because they KNOW what the end result is for them!

[dArKeR]

9. And I believe Bush ordered these types of acts to be performed on

children and animals. And I believe it has occured in Afghanistan and Cuba.

[crossroads]

55. There goes "the beautiful mind" set.

[this_side_up]

12. all of this crap is

being done in OUR names and paid by OUR
tax monies.

Therefore, WE own all of the photos and movies.

BushCo works for US.

We are entitled to see everything as we are
paying and will continue to pay with money,
lives, bodies and blood.

The Iraq civilians are also paying and they
are also entitled.

Where are the attorneys and why haven't
they filed suit?

[PaDUer]

27. I've heard that people are getting

petitions signed requesting the rest of the pix and videos to be released to the public and demanding that those involved, no matter who it is from the bottom to the TOP, be charged for these atrocities instead of trying to cover this up, and hand delivering the petitions to their local congressmen's offices.

This might be the way to put pressure on the congressmen instead of allowing them to sweep it under the rug?? They say by doing this, the congressmen would have to respond to these people in writing. It might be appropriate way to handle this since we've been seeing polls which aren't accurate due to being freeped thus telling them to keep those pix out of the press and that the people want those involved brought up on charges instead of using the reservists as scapegoats. We can't let them walk on this issue as we see and we know they're masters of Diversions, and now with the murder of Berg, need I say anymore.

[Iceburg]

76. Screw the petitions - Refuse to pay our taxes NOW

[PaDUer]

95. You're right..n/t

[The Stranger]

161. Where are the petitions? Who is circulating them?

Where did you hear this? Why haven't you posted it?

[PaDUer]

190. I heard about the petitions

in our area...It appears that anyone can draw it up and get signatures then taking it to their local congressmen's office. I didn't even check to see if there are any online because I heard about it when I went to the post office the other day..People are extremely upset in this area and want everything to come out and justice served to ALL those involved from the bottom to the TOP.

These individual petitions might be the way to go to get their attention since there's many congressmen and senators who do NOT get emails, faxes, or know anything about what the people are saying, OR, are ignoring the matter. With the hand delivered petitions, I heard they will get a written response from that congressmen, which in this case, is Congressman Sherwood, who by the way, has been involved with the situation since one of those charged lives in his area..I don't know if they're doing petitions to Kanjorski, but he also has been involved since a couple people involved are from his area..

The individual local petitions might work being the congressmen KNOW the signatures are from his constituents (name, address, phone) and they want answers and everything released and aren't looking the other way. What's your opinion on what these people are doing? Good or bad?

[Just Me]

13. I SEE YELLOW WALLS, AGAIN!!!!!

I can't make out the naked lump. I certainly cannot make out any females. I see a bunch of beer-bellied bullies standing over a lump of bodies on a cement floor surrounded by the same YELLOW walls as that depicted in the Berg film.

That is what I see.

[NNN0LHI]

15. Does the cheap white chair in the above photo remind you of this one?

[bagnana]

18. it is heartbreaking to see his photo online and to know

that his parents have access to it as well. I cannot imagine their pain at seeing his terror and pain and desperation. This is just so awful.

[Just Me]

20. If I were his parent,...I'd be feeling a helluva lot more anger than pain.

[Just Me]

19. Damn. I missed that.

I tried to go back and access the video (it's taken me some time to regain my courage to go back and do so) and examine it. Well, there it is,...white plastic freakin' lawn chair against that yellow prison wall.

[PaDUer]

30. Noticed that too..

Would you add 2+2 and give us your answer?

[Just Me]

34. I thought I had already offered my merc (PNAC-backed) theory. n/t

[Danieljay]

33. whoa...!

creepy!

[Beetwasher]

36. Man

That really is just some fucked up shit...What a fucking mess...

[TeeYiYi]

46. Same chair . . . same yellow wall? ...n/t

TYY

[daleo]

57. Another fairly remarkable coincidence

Granted, plastic white chairs are not that rare, nor are yellow walls, nor are orange jumpsuits, but when you put these all together they indicate:

- another big coincidence, or
- the video was shot in the jail, or
- someone went to a lot of trouble to make people think the video was shot in the jail.

At this stage, it is pick your poison, I guess.

[LiberalFighter]

64. Doesn't add up that terrorist would go to that much trouble

to make it look like it was in a jail if they dressed up as terrorists.

[Aussie_Hillbilly]

168. Of course they would.

The CIA trained them in PsyOps back in the good old days.

The video is ostensibly about avenging the torture at the prison, and offering the Muslim world the 'justice' only Al-Qaeda can give. Political legitimacy is intimately linked with the power to deliver percieved justice. The more like Abu Ghraib, the more powerful the message. They know what they are doing.

Whether this atrocity was done by the student or the master, we will probably never know. Empty tinfoil threads about yellow walls (wow...) make DU look bad. There are plenty of REAL inconsistencies in the video without those yellow walls. No offence intended.

[DoNotRefill]

77. Oh, shit.

I've got FOUR of those chairs on my back porch!

That's proof that I killed Berg, AND tortured the entire population of Iraq!!!! Wow!!! And I did it all from the mountains of Virginia!!!!

:tinfoilhat:

[SeveneightyWhoa]

94. Hilarious!

I entered this thread, got confused and startled, yet your post broke my suspensefulness and made me laugh out loud.

Haha, thanks.. :)

[dflprincess]

17. It does look like #4

is wearing a skirt.

[Just Me]

21. A "skirt" *LOL* without a shirt *LOL*. BWAHAHAHA n/t

[NNN0LHI]

22. Looks like a brown blouse she is wearing and pumps n/t

[PaDUer]

32. Ya, isn't that what's her name??

The blondie who was in charge?--Karpinski?

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11462575&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=415898&rfi=8
Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, former MP commander at the prison, has said military intelligence officials fostered the atmosphere of abuse, instructing soldiers to create "favorable conditions for subsequent interviews."

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chico Man]

39. Man w/ shirt off wearing beret, shorts, and slippers?

:wtf:

And a farmers tan

[FemaleDemfromMass]

40. Yes, that was

my first impression too.

[Chico Man]

41. Here is a bit of a zoom

[htuttle]

43. Maybe having the male guards wear skirts was part of the psyops plan?

Or maybe he just likes the feel of a silky slip against his thighs?

:shrug:

[Chico Man]

44. Looks Scottish

Where are the bagpipes?

[crossroads]

50. WTF? I can only guess what kinds of game these heros dreamed up!

Sickos, no wonder they don't want the pics to be released! Maybe to protect their own identities...:shrug:

[LiberalFighter]

66. It could be just wearing baggy shorts

That attire wouldn't be out of the ordinary.

[Ediacara]

125. it's a skirt

[Beetwasher]

45. Could be a pair of baggy shorts

I got a pair like that. You can see a white decal on the leg like a pair of baggy sports shorts would have.

[PaDUer]

103. How can you see all that?

Maybe I'm blind..Would you please tell me how and what to do so I can see these things others are? I'd appreciate it.

[Beetwasher]

162. Not Saying Anything for Sure, Just That It Looks Like It Could

be a pair of baggy shorts and there is definitely a white spot on the left leg that looks like it could be a logo patch that is often found on pairs of baggy sports shorts. It's not a great pic so my observations are in no way definitive no did I claim they were.

[WillParkinson]

185. I'm going with Guy.

My own personal opinion, naturally.

[DoNotRefill]

78. Looks like a guy...

with black hair, worn "high and tight", wearing a brown shirt, baggy sweatpant-ish shorts, and Tevas.

[foreigncorrespondent]

80. I have to agree...

...that sadly this is a woman! Just look at the legs and the shoes, and the hat, that is a female military hat. Our female police officers wear the same hats here in Winter.

[TahitiNut]

87. Not a skirt ...

... just the feet (heels) and legs of the person in the background. :shrug:

[Ediacara]

119. No, it IS a skirt, #4 IS a woman

Copy the image onto your harddrive, and have at it with a graphics program and just increase brightness.

ON EDIT: Here is the brightened image:


When you do that, you see that #4 is clearly wearing a dark skirt, a tan colored short sleeved shirt, and a dark beret. She has light hair, and is wearing short healed shoes. Additionally, #3's legs and feet are visible between the legs and feet and #4 and #5.

Other things that stand out:

#7 especially, but also #2 have darker skin than the others and probably are not white.

#3's face is completely obscured.

#5 and #6 appear to be wearing pants that reach only mid-calf.

[DoNotRefill]

129. Dinoboy....remind me to NEVER let you...

pick my blind dates for me.

It's a guy. Wearing shorts. With hairy legs and sandals/shower shoes. With a "high and tight" haircut. It's not a beret you see, it's the little bitty dart hair on the top of his head. Look at #3's head. You can tell he's got the same basic haircut, and is not wearing a beret.

Look at the way #4 is standing. He's a MAN, BABY!!!!!

[Ediacara]

131. why is he wearing women's shoes?

[DoNotRefill]

134. He's wearing a pair of flop-flops.

AKA shower shoes. Standard issue.

[Ediacara]

137. wow

I had no idea they came with heels....

[DoNotRefill]

139. Look closely...

he's wearing flip flops, but is standing on the balls of his feet and leaning a bit sideways to get a better view. The rest of his body posture backs this up. If you look, you can see his heels are above the heel of the flipflop, the back of the flipflop is sticking up a bit, but there are no heels.

You can see the straps of the flipflops, they're the dark lines across the side of his foot. The rest of his foot (ie his toes) is exposed.

I can tell you've never lived in a barracks or hung around with people in the military....

[Ediacara]

141. Thanks for that enlightened comment

I can tell you've never lived in a barracks or hung around with people in the military....

Aparently that means that 1) I can't tell when people are on their toes or on their heals 2) I can't tell tevas from womens shoes and 3) everything else I say has no merit.

I'm sorry but the women is not on her toes, as the rest of the body posture is only slightly leaned. Take your smug attitude and shove it.

[DoNotRefill]

152. Nope...

it just means that you're not familiar with things military.

Please feel free to go on spouting off that it's a woman wearing a short skirt and high heels. Or, if it makes you feel better, that it's a man wearing a short skirt and high heels. Whatever floats your boat. Just don't expect people to take you seriously afterwards.

[Ediacara]

154. Oh I guess peoples' legs work differently in the military?

Honestly man, like I said, take your smugness and shove it.


You'll also notice that the feet on numbers 3 and 6 are much larger than the feet on #4, further suggesting that #4 is a woman. Also, you're free to further the brightness and contrast of the image and see for yourself that the skirt is a single unit and doesn't have any contrast as you'd expect in shorts, nor is there any jaggedness at the lower end as you'd expect in shorts with one leg closer than the other.


It's a knee-length skirt, not particularly short, like this one:


This, on the other hand is a short skirt:


And I never said the shoes were high-heeled, just that heels are clearly present, like these:


And clearly were not Tevas or flipflops, which you'll notice, don't have raised heels:

[SheepyMcSheepster]

180. at first glance to me

it looks like the guy in the "dress" is actualy wearing flip flops with baggy shorts, if you will notice, he is leaning into the group a bit and so his heel might be raised off the flip flop in order to peer over and see what is going on, ie. he is standing on his toes with the left foot.

who knows though with all this crazyness going on. i see alot of crazy things but this guy just looks like he is wearing baggy shorts and sandals/flip-flops.

[Ediacara]

195. The shorts/skirt when brightness/contrast are increased

Don't show any heterogeneity, and appear to be a single unit, implying that it's a skirt. Additionally, the rest of the posture indicates that the person is standing flat footed, and only leaning slightly. The darkness under the ankle is consistant with a low-heeled shoe, and not with any type of sandle.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

199. fair enough, i have another issue.

what is the white logo looking thing on the right leg of the skirt/shorts.

that's what makes it look like shorts to me, lots of baggy shorts these days have logos on them. what about skirts?

[Ediacara]

208. true enough

I think in the end we'll just have to agree to disagree, and wait til he/she gets IDed.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

211. sure, i mean it is all interpretation

i don't claim to "know" i am just describing how it strikes me. i am not one of these people who claim to "know" what is going on. all we can do is speculate to the best of our abilities.

[lazarus]

155. I AM familiar with things military

I grew up an Air Force brat. I served a term in the Air Force. My wife's a retired Navy Chief.

That's a woman in uniform shoes (pumps) and a skirt.

[TroglodyteScholar]

187. Sorry, but...

"1) I can't tell when people are on their toes or on their heals 2) I can't tell tevas from womens shoes and 3) everything else I say has no merit."

That looks about right to me...

[Tinoire]

158. Looks like a damned WOMAN to me

A woman in heels. I wore plenty of skirts and pumps in the military to know. And if it's not a woman, it's some sick perversion intel dreamt up because that's pretty clearly a skirt, bare legs in hose(?) and small heels.

[drfemoe]

177. I used

windows picture and fax viewer and zoomed. At first thought it was a skirt and hairy legs. Now tend to believe it's baggy shorts (see "v" cutout on side of short's leg). Hairy legs are clearly viewable in zoom (with sock tan line). Clearly NOT a member of the military, though, imo.

[Tinoire]

181. Can you post that? This is getting interesting... n/t

[drfemoe]

186. in this thread

posts 130, 144, 154 are the best views of the "v" cutout.

The same figure can be seen in this photo >>
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1597708
>> walking (behind ceiling fan). This looks like forced group 'sex'.

Further sickening >> the msnbc article indicates this photo was taken "during the interrogation".

[crossroads]

214. Hmmm...

BTW, how is Mrs. DoNotRefill doing these days? Good luck on the delivery and be sure to let us know when it happens!:hi:

[NashVegas]

213. They Make Him Feel Pretty?

;0

[TahitiNut]

163. Well, it looks like either a skirt of baggy shorts, I guess.

I have a really hard time imagining anyone wearing a skirt in Abu Ghraib. Women in the service wear BDUs. There's no uniform that consists of an OD T-shrt and some kind of skirt that I've ever heard of. I tend to think it's baggy (NBA-type) shorts and thongs.

What's even more bothersome is the posture and body language of the group. They're positioned and postured as though the baggy-shorted/skirted one is the senior person present. Loosely arranged like they're at a conference table, three on either side and one at each end. (#8 is at the left end and #4 is at the right end.) Persons #3 and #5 are on either side of #4 just as though #4 is the senior person. This posture would support the notion that #4 is BG Karpinski. (Sheesh)

[PaDUer]

99. How do you do a zoom?

Does it require a special program? Thanks!

[Chico Man]

191. Photoshop....

Zoomed in, took a screenshot, pasted into a new image, cropped, resized, and voila.

[JCMach1]

128. British Intelligence???

Just asking the question...

[Malva Zebrina]

198. that is not a woman. Too broad in the back and too slim in the buttocks.

it is a man dressed up like a woman. Whatever function that serves is beyond me.

[mallard]

201. Re: That is NOT a woman!

The big guy leaning over in those loose gym shorts (which look like a skirt side-on) is not only the eldest of the group, he's the only officer on deck.

#1 looks to me like a warrant officer - not the real thing.

It also looks like late night, so the bedwear from the woken senior/wiser, caught in motion by a photographer wise enough to snap a pic at a moment of distraction.

Clearly, the photographer's positon was meant to be candid.

He's up checking out what all the screaming is about.


Grim, grim, all-time cultural retrograde 'captured' on film. I think the whole world sees which side is 'good' and which is 'evil'. Things have a way of befalling the fate of 'evil-doers', right?

[TeeYiYi]

49. I agree with you . . .

. . . I think it IS her. Janet Karpinski. Same hairdo, same hair color, same body type, same gender. Same bat channel. Same yellow walls. Same white chair. . . .

That's probably why this particular photo was leaked.

TYY

[Athame]

106. #4 looks like Karpinski to me

notice the blondish hair pulled back in a short ponytail. I thought of the resemblance as soon as I saw the pic.

[Ediacara]

124. This is a lightened version of the same image

[TroglodyteScholar]

188. You see a ponytail...?

How can you see a ponytail when there's a #4 where any ponytail would naturally be?

Folks, this is a man in flip flops and baggy shorts. How there's any question is beyond me. The shape of the body says it all. Granted, Karpinski isn't the most feminine character ever, but those of you who see a woman in this do so because you want so badly to.

[Ediacara]

197. I see a woman, because it IS a woman...

The shoes are consistent with low heeled shoes and do not look like sandals or flip flops.

The posture indicates slight leaning, but is completely inconsistent with standing on the balls of your feet.

The skirt/shorts is a single unit when brightness/contrast are increased and does not show any jaggedness at the lower end as would be present if it were a pair of baggy shorts.

As for the ponytail.... well I'm not sure either. It definitely looks as though the person is wearing a dark reddish barret, and the hair color on the sides and back of the head is dark blonde.

[TroglodyteScholar]

205. Think this is just going to remain a mystery..

"The shoes are consistent with low heeled shoes and do not look like sandals or flip flops."

This issue is opinion. Nobody here is going to prove anyone right or wrong.

"The posture indicates slight leaning, but is completely inconsistent with standing on the balls of your feet."

Couldn't disagree more. Again, nobody's going to prove one way or the other.

"The skirt/shorts is a single unit when brightness/contrast are increased and does not show any jaggedness at the lower end as would be present if it were a pair of baggy shorts."

The "single unit" appearance can be explained by a combination of the angle of perspective as well as the presence of shadow. I wouldn't count on adjusting brightness and contrast to tell you anything new, either. If you adjust qualities and see something more clearly than before, chances are you were looking for that something to begin with.

"As for the ponytail.... well I'm not sure either. It definitely looks as though the person is wearing a dark reddish barret, and the hair color on the sides and back of the head is dark blonde."

I'll concede that it's probably a beret, but I fail to see how that says anything about the gender of the wearer. As for the color of the sides & back of the head -- you see blonde, I see nearly bare skin. Both look pretty similar.

It's unfortunate, but nobody is going to come up with any factor (or group of factors) that convinces everyone one way or the other.

[Ediacara]

209. I think

We'll just agree to disagree and wait 'til this person gets IDed properly. :-)

[MGKrebs]

193. I see a guy/shorts. But I also see a maroon beret.

[PaDUer]

29. Yup...

but of course we're colorblind, deaf, dumb, and stupid!

[Just Me]

23. How's about the "vest" on #6? n/t

[DoNotRefill]

132. What about it? It's a LBE vest...

Soldiers wear them sometimes.

[Just Me]

196. I was wondering if it matched the ones worn by the suspects in video n/t

[DoNotRefill]

203. Nope...

they're wearing AK pouches in the beheading video. AK pouches generally use an X-shaped suspension system in the back, similar to what the Brits used in WWII, and are secured in the back. The LBE in this pic has a solid back, and is secured in the front. It's obviously American, while the LBE in the other pics is obviously either old Warsaw-Pact stuff or clones of Warsaw-Pact stuff.

[Danieljay]

31. deleted

[DU GrovelBot]

37. ## Support Democratic Underground! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v2.0
==================
 
The time now is 10:47:53PM EDT, Thursday, May 13, 2004.
 
There are exactly...
3 days,
1 hours,
12 minutes, and
7 seconds left in our fund drive.
 
This website could not survive without your generosity. Member donations 
pay for more than 84% of the Democratic Underground budget. Don't let
GrovelBot become the next victim of the Bush economy. Bzzzt.
 
Please take a moment to donate to DU right now. Thank you for your support.
 
- An automated message from the DU GrovelBot

Click here to donate.

[FemaleDemfromMass]

38. It looks to much the same

to me. Do you think this is the same group that killed Berg?

Also, are you sure that's a woman?

[alfredo]

42. Answer

"Also, are you sure that's a woman?"

After a few drinks he thinks he's Judy Garland.

[FemaleDemfromMass]

51. lol n/t

[LiberalFighter]

67. Nooooo J Edgar Hoover

[ElsewheresDaughter]

56. yes i believe it is the same group

[ElsewheresDaughter]

47. OMFG!!!! there it is at the end of the cell block the yellow wall and

dark runner along the wall ...about 3/4 feet wide ...and the white fucking plactic chair.......this is where Berg was decapited!

i'll be right back with photos of that back yellow wall in the cell block and you deside

PLEASE?
i need the 2 photos of berg with the 5 men standing behind him and the 1 of Berg sitting alone in a white plastic chair...PLEASE some help me out here?

in the 2nd photo notice an orange garment on the floor?

compare these while i track down the one of Berg with the 5 men standing behind him





**NOW** look at the floor coloring under the 5 men and the wall then look at the photo below it and look at the back wall of the cell block ....along the floor is this same color runner?

[Kool Kitty]

48. Jeez, you guys are giving me the creeps.

That is the same chair and the wall IS the same color. OMG. This is too weird. Way too weird.

[crossroads]

54. Notice in the video the guys with hoods were heavy legged dudes...

and most of Iraqis in the prison pics and in most photos from the streets, the majority of Iraqi men are thin to med sized dudes??!

[frank frankly]

52. this story is only getting bigger and worse

super creepy. will the press dare to look into it? don't know...

[AMP 397]

60. I'm seeing everything you guys are!

I'm seeing all this too, but the press would not dare to publish anything on this topic it would only cause mass chaos, but that is only my opinion it will be interesting if anyone notices what we are.

[crossroads]

105. Welcome to DU... AMP397!!!

:hi:

[0rganism]

149. If you were an editor of a major newsweekly, would you touch this story?

Man, I'd be pretty damn sure I had all the ducks in a row before I published anything resembling the kind of theorizing going on in this thread. I would want something much more solid to work with than wall paint, plastic chairs, fat men, and prison clothes, before I accused elements of the US military of offing Nick Berg. I'd want witnesses, at the very least.

Not that this isn't possible -- hell, it's plausible. TO ME. Most folks don't know about the shit that our military/intelligence orgs have pulled before, they don't even want to know, and they would find this very difficult to swallow.

[Beetwasher]

58. This is just mega fucked up

What dark runner are you talking about?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

59. beetwasher ..it is there !! i wish someone with photo savvy could zoom in

on the last photo to the back wall of this pic..."runner" may not be the right word...but the floor has a different color strip along the back wall

[Beetwasher]

62. Its in both pics?

I see one at the end of the hall in the pic w/ the US soldiers, but not in the pic w/ Berg in the chair...Is there another pic of Berg in which theres a dark piece of molding (I believe thats the correct term).

Im not dismissing this at all, just looking for the further verification. This is all highly disturbing. I think maybe you should start another thread in GD showing all the pics side by side.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

63. i will do that ...as an artist i noticed the hue of the walls are the same

and also in the video

1) Terrorists are WHITE and FAT and have the same body type as the men in cell block
2) Victim wearing orange American prison outfit
3) Terrorist wearing bulletproof vests
4) Bad Arabic
5) At the end of video terrorists yell like Americans

Are we seeing prison guards dressed like terrorists?

[Beetwasher]

73. Yes, I know, this is very fucked up

n/t

[M155Y_A1CH]

111. Optical illusion

Everyone is seeing a ceiling fan support at the second story level as if it were on the floor at the base of the wall. You can see the spinning fan hanging on the "baseboard". Both walls are the same, no baseboards.

[0rganism]

146. No, look just below the fan support

The fan support is distinct from the band of color that matches the video. Also, you can see there is dark cove base on other walls in the prison picture.

[RapidCreek]

89. It's called a moulding

RC

[0rganism]

145. Also called "cove base"

to distinguish it from wooden baseboards and doorframe/cabinetry moulding.

[0007]

96. The wall mold

[Beetwasher]

65. Im Not Sure About the Runner (Molding)

In the pic w/ berg there is a rug on the floor thats partially rolled up and I Think you can see the rolled part of the rug under the right foot of the guy on the left, so its hard to see if theres a runner near the floor and in the pic w/ the soldiers numbered, theres a beam going across the catwalk that sort of overlaps the spot where the wall meets floor, so its hard to see if theres a runner (molding) there too. But that wall is the same color and that is the same damn chair and those guys share the same physiques and Berg WAS in fucking US custody.

[crossroads]

107. Check out this photo of a chair !

Is this chair familiar or not? Evidently we are not the first to notice the similarity.

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_members&Number=1469025&t=-1#Post1469025



:shrug:

[Say_What]

133. Interesting comments on that board

Here's a few:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes of course the identical chairs are not proof on their own, however when all the pieces of the puzzle are assembled together, we have a picture that is virtually undeniable - Nick Berg was murdered by agents working for the occupation authorities.

The people who killed Berg were probably Russian mercs, since we know they were speaking Russian for a few seconds before the sound was cut, and spoke Arabic with a Russian accent (according to other investigators).

The video quality was intentionally made very poor so as to hide the obvious signs that the people posing behind Berg were not Iraqi's, and to hide other evidence that may of been in view. This was poorly executed "job", probably done in haste, and likey done as a propaganda ploy to deflect from the torture scandal.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why has no one mentioned the shifting time stamp on the video? Starts out at 13:26. Then cuts to 2:18 (though pretending to be part of a continuous scene). Then cuts to Berg surrounded by men at 2:40. Runs to 2:44 when they grab him and throw him to the floor. The cut to the beheading is, lo and behold, at 13:45.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You just got me to thinking about another part of the puzzle. When he recounts his name the name of his parents, and other relatives he sounds like a man under stress but not necessarily in fear of his life. He sounds like a man responding to an interrogator's question or demand that he give that information.

That would in part explain the time gap on the time stamp, the Orange Jumpsuit, the Chair, and the Yellow background. Earlier in the day he was undergoing interrogation. Sometime between then and the head cutting ceremony he was whacked. Why?

Did Nick Berg, in his snooping around discover something he was not supposed to find out? Was then the need to whack him combined opportunistically with the production of a PsyOp Video? Or was he just "whacked" to order because he was conveniently to hand?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It has been mentioned elsewhere that many Iraqi gov't bldgs. were painted yellow but most of these buildings (especially in the Baghdad area, where Berg was known to be) are in US hands.

The other two salient points visible in the known prison photos (the color of the floor and the wall's baseboard) are conveniently obscured by a hastily laid out large rug at the decapitation site.

Toss in an orange jump suit, bulky, white al-Qaeda executioners and the fact the US has already been caught lying about Berg's dentention by them and tell me what you think.

[pinniped]

156. Here's a couple more good comments...

statement:

Seemingly, they just take pictures of random Arabs and put them up on websites. Some of those don't look like the same guy.

response to above statement:

Using old pictures saves money in the war on terror. It's not like these guys will ever be captured or anything like that.

[T Bone]

68. I call that a baseboard at the bottom of the wall

it is the same color but is the FLOOR a different color ? Has the floor color been altered becaue it was obvious?

[Beetwasher]

70. Theres a rug on the floor in the Berg pic

You can see it partially rolled up under the foot of the guy on the left.

They purposely and hastily covered the floor w/ a rug.

[Name removed]

202. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lou_C]

69. Look at the body sizes of "our" men

They are the same size as the ones with the hoods on and several of them are kind of heavy which is not your typical body size of an Iraqi man.

[fortyfeetunder]

126. Hear what my co-workers had to say

I mentioned this morning having seen the video, and I commented on the relative size of the executioners. I said I found it hard to believe they were the terrorists because of their build, and their posture...and I think they looked awfully well fed..

My co-workers looked at me as if I had 3 heads and said, of course, the terrorists have all the money, sure they get plenty to eat....

[Must_B_Free]

72. #2 has the same belly as the middle man in the "killers" photo

the "Translator"... was he the one reading the statement?

7, 6, 2, 5, 4

Judging from the heights and weights.

[Lou_C]

75. The voice could have been tapped for all we know

They might not even be speaking from under the hoods.

[leftistagitator]

74. That looks like the same chair

But I've seen cheap plastic white chairs like that dozens of times. The wall appears to be the same color, but the floor looks grey in the prison and reddish in the hostage room. The prison jumpsuit Berg was killed in puzzles the hell out of me.

[Ediacara]

82. Can I play devil's advocate?

Lemme just start off saying that I agree, something weird is going on re: Berg's death and these pictures. I have a few questions though about what you're seeing.

1) The dark molding (runner) ar the end of the cell block. Are you refering to the dark horizontal line in this photo that's directly above the group of men?

If so, I think it should be pointed out that it is NOT a feature on the wall, but a beam or rod of some sort crossing above their heads over the hall. You can see a ceiling fan mounted on it above #6 and between #1 and #2. ON EDIT: Yes, there is a molding barely visible that's partially obstructed by the beam, but it is impossible to tell its size and color. Also, it's hard to tell in the killers photo if there IS a molding, or if it's just particularly dark. I suppose watching the video could help, but I'm sorry I can't bring myself to do that again.

2) Yellow walls may be common in Iraqi government buildings, and the lack of the "orniments" clearly visible on the walls in the prison photos may cast doubt on the idea that Berg was murdered in Abu Ghraib (or at least THIS PART of Abu Ghraib). Additionally, the floor is a completely different color in Abu Ghraib (concrete) than it is in the Berg murder locale (red carpet?). ON EDIT: Another poster mentioned that it looked like the killer on the left was standing on a rolled up portion of carpet. It looks like he might be, but again, it's not clear, and it unfortunately looks like something only verifiable by a brave soul who will watch the video again.

HOWEVER the fact that Berg's murderers all apear to be overweight white guys (and I know there ARE white Muslims), plus the orange jumpsuit (why would the kidnapee of a bunch of insurgents be dressed in a prison jumpsuit?), plus (and most disturbingly) that white plastic lawn chair, make me very suspicious of the official story.

Well, and the revelations he had been arrested etc....

You guys may be on to something, but please try to be as skeptical of your own ideas as possible.

[Beetwasher]

84. I Agree w/ you about the runner

And yes there are lots of govt buildings, but how many does AQ control and how could they keep a hostage in one and execute him there?

[Ediacara]

90. They would only need to control one

If indeed, it was al Qaida that did this. I'm still so appalled and confused, I really don't know what to think.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

91. now look just below the horizontal bar attached to 2nd floor ....in other

photos i have seen this 3 ft wide either painted floor or what ever runner....it is there...and i am frantically searching the net for the other photos...when i do gather them all i will do as beetwasher suggested and post them all in post for comparason

[helderheid]

210. More photos w/out having to watch video

Watching that was one of the most horrific things I've ever done. I won't do it again. If you want to analyze the photos, go here:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6172.htm

[Guaranteed]

136. Oh shit...the jumpsuit.

Fuck the rest, but that goes *click*.

[PaDUer]

112. Oh no!!

"The new photos and videotapes provide evidence of the rape and murder of prisoners, according to Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina, who was given a classified briefing on the matter."

Entire article-
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/05/08/rumsfeld_apologizes_for_abuse_warns_of_worse_images_to_come/

[Aussie_Hillbilly]

171. You are giving me the creeps too.

I could find a better Nick Berg death wall without leaving my house.

Enough with the yellow walls! I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

[FemaleDemfromMass]

53. Yup, I can see

why they don't want anymore photos coming out. Do you think they could possibly make it to the internet, the ones the Senators saw?

[ewagner]

79. been following this thread

I don't like to jump to conclusions, but the coincidences are piling up waaaaaayyyyyy to fast.

Great eyes folks.......

Officially, I still don't know what to think, but I am completely wierded out at the moment.

[Beetwasher]

85. I Feel the same way...

Fucked up shit man...

[peacebuzzard]

86. where are the adobe photoshop experts ?

Takes needed on the Berg stills in the plastic chair: densitometer readings for the surrounding color readings.
Match up with:
Above photo of group shot from high angle with the plastic chair.
Is there any way in hell to find out if the light source is the same? Tungsten? Fluorescent? Certainly no daylight in that hell hole. Any ideas? Can you even decipher?

[Say_What]

118. Lighting in Abu Ghraib is flourescent as shown in this pic

Notice how even the lighting is? The same thing could be said of the photos of Berg. It's really hard to tell. Also, flourescent lighting produces a weird color to photos unless you use a filter. Check out those guys on the right, what are they doing? Reading their mail?? A guy's getting killed and their having a conversation? I agree with an earlier poster who said the posture of these guys is not what one would see in the middle east--I see these postures as military. Also, Berg looks really drugged or is it calm because he's around his own people? Just my two cents.

[Catherine Vincent]

81. A few posters yesterday were stating that Berg was kill in the prison.

I'll have to look for the posts.

[TeeYiYi]

83. Look at the color . . .

. . . of the hand that killed Danial Pearl. Not white. Not light. Not fat. It's brown. And lean.


TYY

[City Lights]

97. And it's wearing a ring.

Is it gold?

[MGKrebs]

92. Deep breath here.

Commonalities;

Yellow walls.
Plastic chair.
orange jumpsuit.
Armor vests.

Possibles:

Overweight men?
Skin color?

Inconclusive but suspicious:
carpet

Also;
-Torture in hallway? To impress the other inmates? Would a death in the same location be much of a stretch?
- Video/pics of torture for blackmail. Video of death for same? Was "corporal" torture not working well enough?

:-(

[FemaleDemfromMass]

122. Thank you for the recap,

it made me think of something else. If they killed Nick Berg in the prison, then the inmates would have witnessed it, right? It looks like they watched the other abuses in the hallway. So, if that's what happened, then there has to be witnesses to Mr. Berg's killing?

[Aussie_Hillbilly]

172. Thank you for the recap.

Devils advocate here.

The yellow walls, plastic chair and orange jumpsuit are like Abu Ghraib. Yes. They are not hard to find elsewhere, and it makes sense for Al-Qaeda to mock up Abu Ghraib - it makes their payback message all the more powerful. I would go as far as to say it would be suspicious if they DIDN'T mock up Abu Ghraib.

Armour vests, or padding to blur outline so CIA hunters don't get any free intel? Both are logical, and possible.

Skin color I'll grant you, although Al-Zarqawi is a Jordanian of Chechen descent (White, Caucasian), and his men probably include more such.

Why are people here focusing on ridiculously everyday and non-suspicious things like yellow Iraqi-government standard walls, and now silent about:

The lack of spurting blood.

Al-Zarqawi being one-legged or dead in previous news reports.

The extremely bullshit timing.

The video was uploaded to the web, yet the NSA and FBI can't track the upload point to the terrorists. Remember, they got the hacker who wrote the Sasser worm within days, and he was way more tech-savvy than Al-Zarqawi. The Web is watched.

Instead we are talking about walls.

WTF? :shrug:

[MGKrebs]

192. Hey, that's cool.

and now silent about:

The lack of spurting blood.

Al-Zarqawi being one-legged or dead in previous news reports.

The extremely bullshit timing.

If you've got anything more to add to those issues, bring 'em on! Start a thread and go at it.

Some of us are not satisfied that we have pushed the paint/jumpsuit/vests/knife/chair/body type, as far as it can go yet.

[TeeYiYi]

93. Another white chair . . .

TYY

[ElsewheresDaughter]

98. TeeYiYi thank you...very good...i like...are there more?

[City Lights]

100. Maybe those are the tattoos the CIA is looking for. n/t

[Cooley Hurd]

104. Since this chair seems to match the others in Abu Ghraib...

...one could assume they were probably purchased and imported by the US Army (by the thousands). My question is, how did Al Qaeda acquire one?

[crossroads]

108. Others are noticing this too

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_members&Number=1469025&t=-1#Post1469025

:shrug:

[PaDUer]

116. Are you registered for that forum?

I got this below, only copied one paragraph due to it being the same
--
Warning: mysql_query(): supplied argument is not a valid MySQL-Link resource in /home/libertyforum.org/mysql.inc.php on line 58
SQL ERROR: Unable to do_query: SELECT U_Username, U_Password, U_StyleSheet, U_Status, U_Privates, U_FrontPage, U_Number FROM w3t_Users WHERE U_Username = '' AND U_Password = ''
Too many connections: 1040
Warning: mysql_fetch_array(): supplied argument is not a valid MySQL result resource in /home/libertyforum.org/mysql.inc.php on line 71
LibertyForum Visit our Home Page

Main Index | Search | New user | Login | Who's Online | FAQ
Warning: mysql_query(): supplied argument is not a valid MySQL-Link resource in /home/libertyforum.org/mysql.inc.php on line 58
SQL ERROR: Unable to do_query: REPLACE INTO w3t_Online (O_Username,O_Last,O_What) VALUES ('-ANON-69.168.226.110','1084512966','showflat')
Too many connections: 1040

We cannot proceed.

We encountered a problem. The reason reported was:

Access Denied.

This is not necessarily an error. If you feel this is an error then it could be something as simple as your browser not being set to accept cookies. If you feel this error is a problem with the server then please contact [e-mail] and let us know what exactly went wrong so it can be fixed as soon as possible. Otherwise, please use your back button to return to the previous page.

[demoman123]

121. They are having bandwidth problems. Lots of sql errors.

Too many hits.

[PaDUer]

140. That's one of those

freeper forums that was formed when people had enough of some members at freepsville, bad ingroup fighting, and some people went and started another forum..Matter of fact, I think there's a couple more started by people who got fed up at FR from what we read.

[demoman123]

151. It's a libertarian forum. Absolute free speech.

No one is ever banned except for the use or threat of force against other forum members offline. This has happened once or perhaps twice in the two years the forum has been in operation. Interesting experiment. In addition to many libertarians, there are Zionists, Nazis, Marxists, paleo-conservatives, you name it. Everyone gets to have his or her say.

[crossroads]

212. No, not registered - I copied the page from another site that was also

trying to piece the puzzle together. I saved the page to my PC, and assume that I copied it Wednesday night sometime. I only posted the URL here as the page content was too long for DU rules. They may have gotten strict about visitors because of the unwanted traffic?!:shrug:

[JCMach1]

135. What the H#$% is that on the table?

???

[Ediacara]

143. uh....

A flashlight, a pen, an ashtray, cheetos, and some other things I can't identify.

[Gman]

102. I have a problem with this conspiracy theory...

in that the video was posted on an alleged Al-Queda website. If this was faked then:

1) It seems Al-Queda would have deny killing Berg. I think they would have been motivated to do deny becausse its obvious that if Al-Queda didn't kill Berg, then Americans or Iraqis overseen by Americans killed Berg.

2) Why would Al-Queda let the CIA put up a website claiming to be Al-Queda without calling the website out especially since Al-Queda would see it as an obvious setup with the Berg video posted?

[tinanator]

114. besides the historical CIA/Al Qaeda roots, ask another question

why was this video made available on yahoo? Do they have a bunch of snuff films available? Can we expect this sort of entertainment whenever a gruesome murder is committed on tape of an American? I think the answers are pretty obvious when the right question is asked. Never mind the culprits, look at the distribution and timing. Entirely an American op. The Iraqis have known of the tortures for a LONG time, they werent suddenly in a hurry to do something and distribute it this widely. If they tried, they would be stifled not enabled.

[bobbyboucher]

153. Because Al Queda doesn't exist?

Duh.

[MGKrebs]

157. Zarqawi has been allegedly dead and/or maimed for years.

Attributing this event to a dead guy would be a safe way to keep the denials at a minimum.

Please don't ask me about motivations because I am very confused at the moment. The best scenario that I can accept right now is that (if it is not really Zarqawi) that the same people who were torturing prisoners in the hallway of the prison needed to kick things up a notch and went the full monty. I don't know if Berg was already dead or not. I'm not really too concerned with that part. It's the identity of the masked men that bothers me.

[David Zephyr]

109. NNN0LHI, Your Thread Has Truly Made Me Wonder Now.

The White Chair...
The Orange Jumpsuit...
The Yellow Walls...

Is that an orange jumpsuit wadded up just behind the soldier in fatigues?

And check out the cell near the American soldier with the black gloves.

Is the prisoner wearing some sort of orange apparel?

[PaDUer]

113. See post #112 and more here..

''It is going to get worse before it gets better," Graham said. ''We're talking about rape and murder."

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/05/08/rumsfeld_apologizes_for_abuse_warns_of_worse_images_to_come/

[Kool Kitty]

110. There's an article up on Buzzflash that

mentions the stance of the men behind Mr. Berg-it calls the stance by a military term, parade ease or parade dress or something like that. Goddammit, I'll go back and read it again. I've got CRS tonight.

On edit-"Notice the stance-parade rest."

Is that true, is that how they are standing?

[Andy_Stephenson]

148. Parade Rest

is the term you are looking for.

[Aussie_Hillbilly]

174. Devil's advocate again.

Al-Qaeda were US-trained during the Afghan war. Why wouldn't they show signs of US military training? Particularly old-timers like Al-Zarqawi.

[dudeness]

120. read this article..says it all

America's gulag

Stephen Grey uncovers a secret global network of prisons and planes that allows the US to hand over its enemies for interrogation, and sometimes torture, by the agents of its more unsavoury allies



8 October 2002. Over the Atlantic, at 30,000 feet, on board a Gulfstream jet, Maher Arar looked out through the portholes of the private plane at the clouds beneath and the red glow of dawn. Stretching out on the wide, upholstered leather seat, he glanced across at the large video screen on which was displayed the path of the plane from its departure point near New York, onwards to Washington, DC and then to its final refuelling point at Portland, Maine, before heading across the ocean. A telecommunications engineer in Ottawa, Canada, Maher was used to air travel - but not to such luxury.

His companions - specialists attached to the CIA - were preparing to switch on another in-flight film, an action movie. Maher could think only of what fate lay ahead of him when he reached the country to where the United States was now sending him for interrogation and from where his family had once fled - Syria.

He recalls: "I knew that Syria was a country that tortured its prisoners. I was silent and submissive; just asking myself over and over again: 'How did I end up in this situation? What is going to happen to me now?'"

Maher had been arrested after arriving at New York's JFK Airport at 2pm on 26 September to change planes. He'd been returning home from a holiday in Tunisia. He was accused of membership of Osama Bin Laden's al-Qaeda organisation and of knowing two other Syrian-Canadians who were said to be terrorists. Maher was baffled; he hardly knew the pair. They both seemed ordinary Muslims like him - hardly extremists.

http://www.newstatesman.com/nscoverstory.htm

[JCMach1]

138. #4 might be British Intelligence wearing a kilt

t-shirt and beret

[Ediacara]

144. Possibly

Here is a close up of #4, lightened so we can see details

[JCMach1]

150. SAS Beret: British Intelligence guy

http://www.thesyndrome.com/archives/00000900.htm

The image from the article is from an official British Army contractor...

[Tinoire]

164. Problem with that is the pumps & than men in kilts wear manly socks

and skip the heels





Still trying to find photos of Brits in kilts because they rarely wear them, even more rarely wear them around American troops because of the snickers & I just can't imagine them wearing a ceremonial uniform in combat.

On edit: However, Garner specifically identified that person as an intelligence officer (Intel is crawling with women btw) and the UK did teach our soldiers torture methods :shrug:

Graner identified four other soldiers in the photograph, labeled Nos. 4, 5, 7 and 8 in the copy provided to NBC News, as military intelligence officers, who he said were in charge of interrogations at the prison. A civilian translator is labeled No. 2, and Graner is No. 1.

[Tinoire]

165. Can you find any references of kilts in Iraq? I couldn't

but I gave up early.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kimchi]

183. Tell me that isn't a child.

On the last line of pictures on the left.

WHAT IS THAT IMAGE????????????? Who took it?

I'm going to puke now.

[fishnfla]

189. Those pictures are staged porn

This has been debunked here 2 weeks ago

[demlandslide2004]

170. this will go right to the top - the bush white house

Rum dum must go and he needs to take Bush with him!

[Soloflecks]

173. The timing is more important than chairs?

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=149495;article=54893;title=APFN

"2. Here is the smoking gun: If the body was found on Monday (May 10th), or previously "over the weekend" (prior), how could the execution and video be taped on May 11th, as is reported?

"The statement in the video was signed off with Zarqawi's name and dated 11 May" (Drudge and Aljazeerah).

An Arab magic trick indeed...to be able to execute a man on video tape ("May 11"), AFTER HIS BODY IS FOUND BY US FORCES, on "May 10th"!!!!! The video is not the only thing that appears fuzzy!!"

[hallucinex]

176. just thinking

Ok .. we obviously know the 'official' story has more holes than a sponge.

We know he was in US custody.... to the point of his parents having to sue Rummy. Let's go along with this thread, and since he was stuck in prison for so long .. think of all he may have seen - presuming he was in Abu-Ghraib. Abuse, torture, Lynndie getting busy .. ;) After demanding release, you think they offed him because he would have left and ratted them out? Just a thought. Next day he's dead. Go figure. Anyone heard anything on the area WHERE his body was found? If it's anywhere NEAR Abu-Ghraib ..

[FemaleDemfromMass]

204. Good points you brought up. My hubby said he heard on CNN today

that the Iraqi Police never had Berg in custody. So, the whole time he was held probably was at this prison. You make sense about his seeing and hearing the abuse and more than likely he was trying really hard to get back to the U.S. to let people know.

Do they keep records with the names of all the prisoners and the dates they arrive at the prison? Probably gone by now, but worth a shot.

It seems like they were really sloppy with Mr. Berg's murder. Maybe it was a rush job because they had no reason to hold him, but couldn't let him walk free either.

If those dates in post #172 are true that really blows their story up.

[Domitan]

184. This thread is listed on What Really Happened

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

Check out the list of topics today. Guess Rivero likes the detective work here.

[hallucinex]

194. WRH

I love whatreallyhappened.com ... every day Mike posts some awesome links I wouldn't have found on my own. :o)

[CWebster]

207. what is with the rubber gloves?