POW Guards Said Get Insufficient Training

[DoYouEverWonder]

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-prisoner-abuse-guards,0,5548038.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines


May 4, 2004, 5:13 AM EDT

PHILADELPHIA -- Two army reservists discharged last year over allegations they mistreated Iraqi prisoners said many of the soldiers serving at POW camps get insufficient training in how to interact with detainees.

Lisa Girman and Timothy Canjar, both formerly with the Pennsylvania-based 320th Military Police Battalion, said reservists guarding enemy prisoners are thrust into duty with little or no instruction in the use of force in controlling prisoners.

<snip>

"You could absolutely see the dangers in the direction that the chain of command was taking this operation," Girman, a former master sergeant, said in a telephone interview Monday. "It was going to end messy, one way or another."

<snip>

Girman and Canjar, a former specialist, were among four reservists from Pennsylvania who were accused in a separate incident last May of beating detainees at Camp Bucca, a detention site in southern Iraq. All four denied they did anything wrong and said the force they used was necessary to subdue unruly prisoners.



So how many incidents have there been? At how many prisons? How many soldiers have been disciplined and/or charged with mistreating and/or killing Iraqis? Seems that another Pandora's Box has been opened and the demons are spilling out all over the place.

[truthisfreedom]

1. they were stranded. "LORD OF THE FLIES."

[saigon68]

22. get insufficient training in how to interact with detainees.

What a FUCKING JOKE

How do you educate someone NOT to do the following, do you report someone else's bad behavior

When the POW had a PLASTIC FLASHLIGHT RAMMED UP HIS RECTUM ???

When a GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG BIT HIM IN THE TESTICLES ???

When the POW had a 220 Volt wire attached to the TIP OF HIS PENIS ???

When Lynndie England was encouraged to help the POWs obtain erections so they could perform
ORAL SEX ACTS ON EACH OTHER and the PERKY PRINCESS OF ABU GHRAIB
PRISON COULD SHOUT "HE'S GETTING HARD"???

When a POW was beaten to death, HIS BODY PACKED IN ICE and TAKEN OUT IN THE
DESERT AND DUMPED

When a Civilian Interrogator ANALLY RAPED A 16 YEAR OLD BOY IN FRONT OF GI
WITNESSES and is going to get a free pass because he was under NO ONES JURISDICTION ???

[Spentastic]

2. Oh do fuck off - excuses excuses

Didn't get enough training in how to treat people like human beings?

These people and their rationalisations make me sick. Fuck em. Name and shame them.

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. Next they'll be blaming their parents

Mommy never taught me right from wrong, waa... It's not my fault, waa...

[Spentastic]

4. Yeah

Then it'll be "they had it coming"

[skooooo]

5. argh! here we go again...

...i find such attitudes as really short-sighted. Given the right circumstances, there are few of us around who can't be made to do what we would otherwise assume to be "immoral acts". I don't mind holding those people responsible, but I think it's a mistake to castigate those soldiers as somehow being "other" than us.

[Spentastic]

7. I find your attitude appalling

It's entirely proper to hold these soldiers to account for their horrible actions. They made choices (no draftees) and are now doing horrible things.

Not all soldiers are doing these things but some are. They are different to "other" people. Their actions should be publicised and they should be judged on the basis of their conduct.

There were not forced to do these things. They chose to.

[skooooo]

8. Look....I've gotta very different take on things...

I've spent a lot of time reading / discussing issues like this in the context of WW2 Germany, and I've adopted a lot of attitudes based on what I have been told about those times, and especially what Germans feel the lessons of that time are. Obviously, that seems to be at odds with the (what I perceive as) easy, quick moral judgements that seem as much aimed at making you feel better about yourself by contrasting your obvious moral superiority to the people who were put in this hell hole situation by Bush. Maybe you would have acted differently, but I guarantee you that there are many, many people who think the same thing and are wrong about it.

[Spentastic]

9. Er.

I don't see obvious parallels between WWII Germany and the U.S army in Iraq.

"people who were put in this hell hole"

See, that's where we obviously disagree. I'm not willing to grant a pass to people that joined an army and then wish to be excused for their actions within that force.

People can serve and remain human, many do. These people have not and their actions deserve contempt.

[skooooo]

10. Wow, you're really "hard core"...

...So you're telling me that you have no sympathy for people who joined the National Guard so they could help during flood season, but end up in Iraq killing innocent civilians. You're pretty tough not to "grant a pass" to these people!

I agree that their actions "deserve contempt", no where have I stated otherwise, so please don't try to bend my meaning and make off like I'm somehow making excuses, ok?

The parallels -- well, humans treating humans cruely under the guise of war, punishment, whatever..."going along" with authority, etc. You have no idea what has gone on, or what these soldiers were told.

Just nevermind, I don't see that you're interested in discussing.

[Spentastic]

11. Discussion?

How can there be one when you seem more concerned with feelings of the soldiers than them "killing innocent civilians".

My sympathy is mainly reserved for those suffering at the hands of the U.S. I guess you include volunteer soldiers. I have a hard time doing so. Service is not morality free.

Those who joined up for flood duty are not going to be granted a pass because of their inability to see the possible consequences of joining the army. They have choices as to how to serve their time. Those who indulge in barbarity deserve to be condemned. Whether you like it or not any other response is "making excuses".

[skooooo]

12. so obviously there's nothing to discuss..

..like I said.

[DoYouEverWonder]

13. If the kids in the pictures

weren't obviously enjoying what they were doing, and seemed to think it would be a gas to pose for the camera, while they were doing it, I might tend to side with you.

It is one thing to be under orders and feel you have no choice but to comply. It is quite another thing to take such obvious pleasure in this horrific treatment of other human beings.

However, what makes matters even worse, is that from the top, down, no one wants to claim responsibility. The finger pointing and the lame excuses don't absolve anyone's guilt in the role they may have played doling out this torture. Especially, since so many of these people from the pResident down claim to be such good Christians.

I wonder how many people who were assigned to this sort of duty, actually refused to participate or bothered to come forward once they knew what was going on? So far not very many.

[saigon68]

25. Good Christians always shove Plastic Flashlights up someones ass

Its a bonding thing ya know </sarcasm>

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

6. Soldiers have said, often, that their mission was to liberate the Iraqis.

from an evil dictator. There was never any mention of torture being on the soldiers' agenda.

I think their training was sufficient. They were taking orders from higher ups, clearly, and even though, deep down, they knew their actions were wrong, those actions were considered accepted, if not expected, practice. So, they went with the flow and indulged their dark side.

That's the way I see it.

[Disturbed]

14. Enjoying themselves

Maybe not all of them but the ones in the photos Isaw were enjoying themselves while humiliating prisoners. Beating prisoners and some were beaten to death has zero excuse!

I was in the Army and saw abuse, as well.I spoke up about it, did not participate and reported the abuse to my commanding officer. There is always a choice between right and wrong. No soldier is required to commit unlawful acts. It doesn't take training to know what abuse and torture is.

[DoYouEverWonder]

15. I know that being the first to come forward

must be one of the most difficult things in the world. However, now that the scandal is out in the open, I hope a lot more soldiers make the right choice and start to come forward with their stories.

I have a much easier time forgiving someone who says, 'this is what happened and I am sorry," than I have trying to forgive someone who just wants to make excuses.

[0007]

16. 'Ya need training to piss on someone?

Training is needed to beat a man senseless until he dies?
Training is needed where to put electrodes on a man's nuts? Or to put a fist up an ass.

Insufficient training in how to interact with detainees? How could these guards do it any better?

[DoYouEverWonder]

17. Training is putting a bag over someone's head

while you do these acts. That way they can't identify who did what. Makes it much harder to charge anyone with a crime. Unless of course, you are stupid enough to take pictures of yourself doing it. We must assume that for every set of pictures there are probably 1000's of other times this happened or worse and the people knew better than to bring a camera.

Remember Mazan Dana, he was the Palastinian journalist who was killed by US Troops outside of Abu Grhaib trying to take pictures. Now, we know why.

[Poiuyt]

18. I remember the incident

but I didn't know that that was where it took place. I hope there's no connection.

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. Yeah, they couldn' tell he was a cameraman?

[ninkasi]

19. Yes, now his murder makes sense

I can't believe that troops need special training to prevent them from not only abusing prisoners, but quite obviously relishing it. Since Chimp was installed by SCOTUS, this whole administration has acted under a shroud of secrecy.

Now, the spin is that the troops didn't have proper training in the treatment of the prisoners. Another lie, another excuse, another evasion of responsibility, brought to the suffering world by Busco.

[0007]

21. ......and when 'ya like your job and what your doing, your a happy camper

and when your a happy camper it shows on your face. Ah, those blue glove are so nice to have, especially when probing another's rectum.

[saigon68]

23. ITS IRAQ-NAM DEATH AND TORTURE

ITS IRAQ-NAM-- DEATH SHOWS NO FAVORITES


A place where Death rides a Pale Horse

Sometimes Death travels beyond the boundaries of the combat zone and wreaks havoc on mere
bystanders.

Death inflicts the ultimate penalty in no particular order.


The Innocent, The Guilty, The Careless and The Unlucky-- are all targets.

ITS IRAQ-NAM-- TORTURE SHOWS NO FAVORITES

The US military can now be compared as being capable of the most bizarre form of torture since Bergen Belsen

[saigon68]

24. to piss on someone YOU Need to learn how a ZIPPER works

Or how to unbutton your fly and aim