Dem announces U.S. Senate bid; sets up costly Pa. primary

[Nambe]

Associated Press

An Internet entrepreneur who has never run for political office said Tuesday he will seek election to the U.S. Senate, bucking Democratic Party leaders who have already lined up behind another Pennsylvania candidate.

Charlie Crystle, a 36-year-old software developer from Lancaster, will face Rep. Joseph Hoeffel in a Democratic primary for the seat now held by Republican Sen. Arlen Specter. Specter will face an April 27 primary of his own, against Rep. Pat Toomey.

Democratic Party leaders in Washington and Harrisburg had hoped to avoid any primary battles that would eat up energy and money before they face the winner of the bruising GOP battle between Specter and Toomey. But Crystle said his candidacy should "strengthen the Democratic Party" by offering voters a choice. ---


We are going to change history -- we're going to have a ton of fun doing it.

[rabid_nerd]

1. Charlie's a DUer and a great guy...

And Charlie was interviewed on PoliticsPA about running BEFORE Hoeffel made noise.

Charlie was the first person to say he was going to run, not Hoeffel. Hoeffel caused the primary.

[dolstein]

2. If Charlie were truly a great guy

He'd drop out of the senate race and run for Hoefell's seat in Congress.

[rabid_nerd]

4. Why?

Because he dared to run for something where noone was running?

Because he enters the race, everyone is supposed to drop out?

If that's how it works, I REALLY hope Al Gore re-enters for president!

He had a room at the state party convention booked before Hoeffel made noise, in fact the noise came up the day before the convention.

Charlie's been on this for months and months. Hoeffel decides to take a poke at it and Charlie should say good night?

That's not what Rendell did, thankfully, so why should he?

[dolstein]

9. Newsflash: Charlie didn't file until this afternoon

Hoeffel filed his papers on June 16. So sorry, all this bullshit talk about Charlie getting in the race first and Hoeffel forcing the primary is just that -- bullshit talk.

The fact is that Hoeffel has demonstrated his electible viability by actually getting elected to federal office. As far as I know, Charlie couldn't get elected dog catcher. But he is loaded, and he can certainly force Hoeffel to work for the party's nomination. Which may soothe Charlie's obviously over-inflated ego, but it doesn't help the Democrats win the senate race. But of course, to people like you and Charlie, electing a Democrat is really an afterthought.

[rabid_nerd]

86. Whatever

Hoeffel knew months before he made a noise that Charlie was running.

[dolstein]

141. That's funny -- even Charlie didn't seem to know whether he was running

Did you read some of the articles on Charlie's web site? Sorry, but "seriously thinking about running" isn't the same as running.

[jiacinto]

3. Hoeffel has more experience

and is a better candidate. Nothing against Charlie, but he should run for local office first.

[rabid_nerd]

5. I'll give you the experience

but first of all, do you really think Hoeffel (or anyone) has a chance in hell?

The only way I could see us winning would be:

- Specter has an affair
- Specter loses in the Repub primary

Is Specter really that vulnerable?

[jiacinto]

14. Okay

Hoeffel represents a key swing area, Montgomery County, where the suburbs of Philadelphia are. Secondly he has held elective office and won campaign in a district traditionallly "hostile" toward Democrats (although that is starting to change).

Charlie Crystale, while apparently a successful businessman, has never held any other office. He has never run a campaign before. Maybe if he had held another office I would be more supportive. Had Hoeffel or another elected offical not jumped in he would have gotten my support.

However, Hoeffel has the seniority and the experience behind him. Crystale should try to run for a local office of first and then try for something like the US Senate.

[Frances]

12. I am not sure that an uncontested primary is always a good thing

After the last gubernatorial race in Maryland was over, I decided that it would have been better for the Democrats if they had had more people running in the primary.

3 good Democratic candidates ran for the 8th Congressional District in Maryland. The candidates had to spend a lot of money, but I think the primary fired up the supporters of the candidate who eventually won the seat. And the supporters of the other candidates did pretty much come around.

What do you think, Carlos? I know you were involved in those races.

[jiacinto]

15. I don't like primaries

They often can bloody and brutal. Money that could be spent for the general election goes to win the nomination. And often many of the attacks used by the rivals end up on commercials for the Republicans.

Sometimes primaries are good. Most of the time I think they're bad. I guess that maybe someone should do a research study and figure out if candidates who emerge from contested primaries are more likely to win or lose.

[NewJerseyDem]

17. This primary might be good

Specter will probably be battered by Toomey if he does survive. So, Specter or Toomey will already be low on money but nobody will know who Hoeffel is. I think that a primary where Hoeffel is clearly the favorite but still has to run some ads might be good.

[jiacinto]

19. No

Specter has tons of money. A primary could be crippling to the Dem nominee. Crystale should drop out of the race.

[salin]

21. Aren't the GOP running someone against Spector?

The more conservative elements of the party have been threatening a nasty primary challenge to Spector for well over a year.

[birdman]

23. Yes, a Congessman named Toomey

Real knuckledragger from what I understand.

But I think he's been getting contributions from
right-wing sources outside the state. Could give
Specter a modest run for it in the primaries.

[Born Free]

156. Wish him well....

Most of the republicans I work with want Spector out this time, they say they want another Santorium, if this is true of other republicans, Spector may be in for a fierce battle. The right wing has taken over the party, and much like Germany as Hitler was coming to power, the right wing is not thinking clearly of the consequences of their actions. This gives us an opportunity to get a good democrat in office here in Pennsylvania. Primary battles are expensive and do hurt at times, but that is what makes us strong. At this point I am open to any candidate, have not decided and will not accept the orders of the democratic leadership as to who I should think is better - remember it is the demcoratic leadership that is currently telling us to like a bush-lite candidate (on the other hand perhaps they mean even more ignorant than bush?)

[CMT]

6. winning this senate seat is absolutely critical

for Dems to win back the Senate. Specter is vulnerable; lets hope that we don't have a bloody primary. My feeling is that Hoeffel is the best candidate to unite the party and win in November.

[diplomats]

8. Specter also has a primary opponent

Congressman Pat Toomey, who's a hardcore conservative.

[dolstein]

10. Yeah, so why fritter away the one advantage we have

by holding our own expensive, bitterly contested primary?

[PROGRESSIVE1]

18. Mr. Toomey is not just a "hardcore conservative"...

he's from the Duke/Buchannan Wing of the Republican Party!!!!!!!!!

[rogerashton]

7. Hoeffel is the right candidate

and Specter is vulnerable. I wouldn't say that anybody ought to step aside if he really thinks he should run -- but having known Hoeffel since the '70's, I, for one, will be for him all the way and would like to get to know this Charlie person, whoever he is, in a campaign for some lesser office. In that case I would very probably look forward to supporting him in the future. If my first acquaintance with the man is as Hoeffel's opponent in a primary -- well, that's not a positive first impression, and you know what they say about first impressions and second chances.

I suspect a lot of people who have been around the political block a few times in the Greater Philadelphia area will feel as I do.

[Momof1]

11. Just MHO but unless Arlen has an affair

He will keep his seat. Around here, Spector is treated like a Saint.
NOT MY OPINION but that is just the way alot of people feel in Central PA.

They only way Arlen can lose, is a massive scandal, or if the whole GOP turns on him, cause they can't count on his vote for a number of important issues. We do need someone in the race in case Toomey wins the primary...(which I highly doubt)

Call me cynical, but I still can't understand how Spector has kept his job, after the Warren Commission. If the voters can over look that, well then he must be St. Spector.

[birdman]

24. Having heard the way Arlen babbles in recent years

I think he'd need to make use of the triple Viagra
theory to have an affair at this point.

[Frances]

13. I know too little about the situation in Pennsylvania

to say who should win the primary.

However, I hope that all candidates will run on this platform:

<<Crystle said his campaign platform will focus on Republican policies of the Bush administration, which he blamed for damaging the national economy, and ultimately, the middle class.>>

[joanski01]

16. Thanks for this post,

Nambe. I live in PA, and I was unaware of who was running against Specter. I'll keep on the lookout for news about these candidates. I want both Specter and Santorum OUT.

[Lugnut]

26. That makes at least two of us!

Santorectum absolutely must GO! Spector isn't quite as bad as Ricky but he's no help to the Dems. I'll be voting for Joe.

[mndemocrat_29]

20. Joe Hoeffel is the Candidate

I think that Charlie Crystle should run for a local office or for a constitutional office before going into this primary here. I think that Hoeffel will win the primary no matter who runs against him, but this primary damage both candidates. We need to rid the Senate of Arlen Specter and we need to win back the Senate. Pennsylvania is the best opportunity to do this.

[birdman]

22. Charlie came to the Philly DU gathering in June

and talked about his plans to campaign. He seems
like a good, Progressive guy and if his lack of
political experience and Hoeffels party connections
give him Hoeffel nomination then that's fine. It's
the way politics should work. But to call for him
to immediately drop out and clear the field for Hoeffel
looks like everyone thinks that the PA dems can't beat
Specter if there's a healthy competition for the nomination.

Hell, Rendell and Casey had a nasty primary fight in '02 and
Rendell still won the governorship.

[jiacinto]

33. I disagree

To me Crystale has no credibiilty in this race. He has never held an elective office. It is like the waterboy of the Football team trying out for the Washington Redskins Quarterback position.

Maybe if he had experience in elective office or had worked in state government he would be a more compelling candidate. Without any experience he is simply not a credible candidate.

[Tanketra]

38. No credibility, never held an elective office, ton of money ...

I might be mistaken, but didn't that describe Peter Fitzgerald 6 years ago?

Or does that only work for Republicans?

[dolstein]

He had Carol Mosely Braun to Run Against

Deleted - Repeat Post

[dolstein]

53. He had Carol Mosely Braun to Run Against

Deleted -- Repeat Post

[dolstein]

54. So Peter Fitgerald is Charlie's Political Role Model?

You might want to rethink that.

For one think, Arlen Spectre isn't Carol Mosely Braun, and it would be pretty sad if, like Fitzgerald, Charlie has to count on the total self-destruction of the Republican candidate in order to win.

Besides, in case you haven't noticed, Fitzgerald isn't running again. His election was a fluke, he was political dead meat, and everybody new it.

[SoCalDem]

148. Don't forget John Corzine :)

He was a big money guy with little or no "elected office" experience:)

[Julien Sorel]

39. Then Hoeffel will simply wipe the floor with him,

and this will become a non-issue. If Hoeffel's experience can't overcome Crystle's money, then Hoeffel's experience isn't worth a whole lot. Ultimately, the voters decide who has credibility. Hoeffel can, and I'm certain, will, make plenty of hay out of his opponent's lack of experience.

[dolstein]

55. You completely miss the point

I don't think Hoeffel's supporters have any doubt that he'll be able to win the primary comfortably. I certainly don't. But problem is that he'll have to spend a lot of money to do it, since Charlie plans to spend a lot of money. So at the end of the day, Hoeffel will have the Democratic nomination, but his campaign coffers will be depleted, and he'll have a much later start on the general election that he would otherwise have.

The fact is, it's never easy to unseat a Republican imcubent. We were handed a huge gift when another Republican decided to run against Specter in the primary. Charlie is now handing the Republicans a huge gift by running against Hoeffel. Now that may not be a truth you don't want to hear, but it's still the truth.

[jiacinto]

60. I agree with you

Charlie should drop out.

[Julien Sorel]

157. How much is a lot?

I read this article, and Hoeffel is expected to raise at least 10 million, while Crystle is putting up only a million of his own. If he's so doomed, he's not likely to get a lot of outside contributions, so he spends a million or two, Hoeffel spends a million or two, and it's on to the actual election.


I can see where you're coming from, basically; you want the Dem candidate (whoever it is) to win. So do I -- to a point. I'm sure this sounds like heresy to you, but elections in a democracy are about more than winning and losing. They have to be. By trying to insist that Crystle not run, Hoeffel's supporters are acting like the old-time political bosses did, when they hand-picked candidates, often hand-picked the winners. We've moved beyond that. Crystle wants to run, he can fund himself, he should go for it. The process itself still has value, whatever happened in 2000.

Crystle's situation, by the way, is different from, say Nadir's. Nadir ran knowing he would lose, but hoping to be a spoiler (whatever he says to the contrary, his campaign in Florida made it obvious). Crystle seems to genuinely want to win. We don't have the right to try to deny him his shot, even in the name of party unity.

[srpantalonas]

25. Message from Charlie Crystle

First, thank you for the range of opinions about this race. It's a very important race for the country, and your involvement regardless of your candidate choice will be crucial in winning the seat.

Second, let me address a few of the criticisms here.
1) I'm not running because of my ego. My ego tells me to stay in software, head to the shore to surf once a week, make money, and continue to work part-time helping people. My heart tells me to run. Whenever I notice myself getting negative about this campaign, I remind myself that I'm doing this to help people, to stand up where our leadership has failed to...and then the negativity goes away. Introduction of ego sparks the negativity. It's not about me; it never was. It's about helping people, catalyzing positive change, and leading a transformational, grass roots campaign that I hope inspires people across the state. I'm no hero, I'm no elitist, and I'm not the best possible candidate, but I'm the best running. I do believe I offer more than Joe and the same-old same-old. Give me a few months and see if you feel the same way. Come out and let's talk about it.

2) I considered running for local office earlier in the year. But the battle is at the national level. This cynical administration brought the battle to us--we didn't ask for this war against the American way of life. Specter is complicit in the dismantling of our social fabric, and I'm outraged about it.

I'd love to be mayor someday--I love my town and would love to serve here sometime. But I'm compelled to fight at the national level. If Joe wins, I'll likely back him. I don't believe in the "line of ascendency" argument though, that a candidate isn't qualified unless they've served in other offices first. I'm a sincere, competent, tenacious candidate. Give me a chance for a few months. Come out and meet me. I look forward to it!

3) I pledge to run a positive campaign. Sometimes it's tough to stay focused on the positive because of the meanspirited nature of politics, but I will try and I won't run attack ads. We will, however, point out differences between the candidates and make criticism where valid and fair. I'm hoping Joe joins me in this pledge.

4) Contested primaries are inherently more democratic. We'll debate, we'll challenge each other's positions, solutions, ideas, and leadership. Both of us will be better for it. The winner will be able to raise enough funds because the primary will have drawn so much attention to the winner. Rendell vs. Casey, for instance.

5) Like trickle-down economics, trickle-down democracy just doesn't work. Democracy should be from the ground up. Rendell endorsed Hoeffel without meeting me and without consulting a large part of the Democratic leadership across the state. It was political, of course, but it wasn't a judgment call. The idea of "clearing the decks" just to save a few bucks and create yet another unknown candidate offends my democratic sensibilities. And it's soooo Republican! btw--I like Rendell's ideas about Education and really hope he's able to implement his plans. I hope he does great things for Pennsylvania and I look forward to working with him.

6) This is going to be a fun election. Guaranteed. Balloons, donkey rides, go-karts...the whole 9. Oh, and cupcakes too.

Thanks for listening. Sadly I'm not able to post a great deal--I'm on the road ALL the time, but I'll try to drop in now and again. The blog will be up soon, plus there's a Crystle For Senate meetup and a CrystleForSenate group at Yahoo. I encourage you to help me and the rest of the state inject participatory democracy into this election :)

www.charliecrystle.com

Cheers,

--Charlie Crystle

[dolstein]

27. Message to Charlie: Listen to Your Ego

You say this isn't about ego. That your ego tells you to stay in software. Well, your ego has much better instincts than the rest of you.

The fact is, if you didn't have a million dollars of your own personal wealth to spend on a "fun" primary, I seriously doubt you'd be running, or that anyone would be paying attention. And I love how you say you'll "probably" endorse Hoeffel if he wins the primary. Who else did you have in mind -- Specter?

[srpantalonas]

28. Probably

...depends on how he chooses to run his campaign. The campaign should reflect his values. If he goes negative, then I'd be unlikely to endorse his candidacy--not that it would matter if he wins (he won't). I will not endorse the Republican contender.

As far as fun goes--stay with me here--campaigning in PA is tough. There is a lot of meanspiritedness out there. There's a lot of pain. Having a little fun through the campaign brings a bit of relief.

What amazes me about this so far is how vitriolic people can get about someone taking a risk to help people. We should encourage participation in the political process, not try to suppress it.

[dolstein]

30. What a bunch of crap

You obviously aren't going to endorse Hoeffel. After all, you won't even acknowledge the possibility he could actually win the primary. What friggin arrogance. Obviously, you believe that you'd win any "fair" primary, so if Hoeffel wins, it must be because he ran a dirty campaign.

You're lucky I'm not a Pennsylvania voter. I could never vote for a Democratic candidate in a primary who isn't willing to say from the beginning that he (or she) will support the eventual winner.

Frankly, I think the vitriol has a lot less to do with your desire to help people (starting with yourself?) than it does with (a) the fact that you've never run for public office before and (b) the fact that Specter is vulnerable. I think there's a sense that Hoeffel has paid his dues, has demonstrated his viability as a candidate, and is the best qualified to take on Specter. You on the other hand seem to be running on a whim -- as in, "gee, wouldn't it be fun to run for the Senate?" I'm confident you'll lose the primary, but obviously, given your personal wealth, you'll be able to force Hoeffel to spend millions of dollars in a primary that would be better off spent against Specter in the general election.

[Dhalgren]

46. Jesus, Dolly! Lighten up!

The guy just wants to run for the Senate, if you don't like him vote against him. But having "experience in politics" is not a requirement for running for Senate, so what is the source of your slobbering vitriol? You don't get to choose who runs for office - anyone can who is qualified - and if the voters don't like him, he won't win, if they do then it's a good thing he ran.

Hey, take a pill.

[glasschains]

43. Don't let them get you down.

They put their own political, selfish interests above all else.

[jiacinto]

32. Mr. Crystale

With all due respect, as someone who lived in Cumberland County for four years, your running is going to hurt the party. You bring little political experience to the forefront. And while you may have money you have never held elective office.

Maybe if Congressman Hoeffel were not in the race I would give you a serious look. However, at this point, your candidacy offers little except a bruising primary. Frankly I don't think that you can beat Senator Specter in a general election. Hoeffel at least comes from the Philadelphia suburbs and represents a seat traditionally hostile to Democrats (although that has started to change over the last ten years).

To be blunt, sir, I believe that Congressman Hoeffel is a much better candidate. Maybe this statement hurts your feelings, but it is the truth. I may be wrong about you--I hope that I am, but I just don't see you defeating Senator Specter next year.

[salin]

71. dear Jiacinto

thank you for trying to make the decision for thousands of Pennsylvania voters. How very democratic of you.

[jiacinto]

85. The truth hurts

I am giving my opinion. I wouldn't be as opposed to Crystale as I am if maybe he had:

held elective office;
worked in government, either in a supervisory or key position;
ran for office;
worked in the community, volunteered with the poor, or done something civically important;
worked for the PA Democratic Party in some respect.

But, based on what I have seen, has done neither of these things. Bluntly Crystale isn't qualified. Maybe if he had some exeperience I would not be opposed to his candidacy.

[salin]

92. oops.... responded to a different statement ..

edited to keep germaine points in:

It is completely fair for you to not be "for" a candidate. Heck that is democracy.

What is unfortunate, is the advocating of shortchanging democracy by being in favor of advocating people get out of a race without giving voters a chance to participate.

Sometimes a vigorous primary depletes funds. Other times it serves to create name recognition, and to build momentum which is very advantageous to a candidate.

How this plays out? Hard to say. But to become a part of the anti-democracy voice within the party? Do you really think that benefits the party? I think that voter suppression (which leads to lower turnout) is a big threat to us. And I think what you advocate, sadly, feeds into this cycle. More important to get voters to the poll in the Fall election than anything else.

[jiacinto]

94. Here is thing

If Crystle had some more experience, or had run for lower office, then I would be more charitable. He has every right to run, but I don't see how his campaign helps us.

[LynneSin]

99. Let's let the folks of PA decide what they want

I mean, half of us posting here, including the both of us, aren't even living in the state. If experience is that important to PA, then they'll give Charlie the boot in the primaries.

[jiacinto]

101. Crystle is a guaranteed loser

That's what I ultimately think. And I really hope that the voters in PA don't nominate him or even put him within striking distance.

[LynneSin]

104. Then let them decide

Isn't that the only fair thing that we can do?

I am not telling people they have to vote for Charlie crystle. Personally, other people (from PA) may agree with you and prefer Hoeffel over Crystle for a variety of reasons. But people in every state deserve to have a choice in the primaries and many people, including an overwhelmingly number of people here at DU are tired of seeing the same old candidates again.

Now we have choice - let's embrace it.

[jiacinto]

106. I'll leave it at this

IF Crystal wins the nomination and then crashes and burns against Specter I'll tell you "I told you so".

[LynneSin]

112. and if the opposite happens

I'll be out celebrating and not bothering with such childish tactics of the "I told you so" manuevers.

[salin]

114. I am celebrating with any and all Dem wins in the senate!

:D Be it either candidate!

[salin]

107. my point, exactly

indeed if the public embraces Hoeffel - the whole primary process might give him a big boost (supporter enthusiasm, statewide name recognition, etc.)

The democracy driven, primary process is important.

[glasschains]

42. I think you act very self-important.

Posting on DU is not the real world. Don't think that it is. You don't stand a chance.

[DavidMS]

140. Good Luck!

I think any DUer running for office (expecialy against a reptile like Santorum) gets my support. Good Luck!

[LynneSin]

29. I'm a little amazed about some of these responses

Too often I see posts complaining about our elected democratic officials and how sometimes we have to "hold our noses" to vote for them. But we "hold our noses" because we really didn't have any other choices out there.

Well now we have choice and we're complaining that isn't what we want either.

Well what do we want?

Hey, I like Joe Hoeffel. When I lived in PA, had I moved across the street he would have been my representative. But what I liked about Joe was he finally got that idiot with the bad toupee Jon Fox out of office. Jon was nothing more than a suck-up to Newt Gingrich and did nothing for the state of PA (kinda like a Rick Santorum for the house).

But to be honest, Joe has never done anything that says democrats shouldn't have a choice in the primaries. And NOWHERE does it say that candidates must have experience before running for office. Do you know that Joe Biden was barely the minimun age for senator when he ran for office some 30 years ago? He barely had experience when he ran. And I'll tell you this much, I'm damn greatful no one told Jon Corzine he couldn't run because of lack of political experience. He's probably one of my favorites in Washington right now.

Personally, if Joe Hoeffel doesn't like the competition then maybe he should consider stepping down. After two years of being here at DU, I always thought we wanted choice in the primaries, we wanted to know we could elected the candidate that could best represent us instead of the only candidate available in our party. And what really kills me is we have all this complaining about the DLC and yet everyone doesn't want to give the DLCer any competition in the primaries (and mind you, I've been known to defend the DLC from time to time).

So why not embrace the wonders of politics and find out more about Charlie Crystle. No one has to make a commitment today for their candidate of choice in the primaries. Read up about him and atttend any of the local rallies when he comes to your neighborhood. And whatever you do, dont' assume the "underdog" doesn't have a chance. If that were the case, Rendell would have dropped out ages ago when he was behind Casey by double digits in the primaries.

The whole purpose of the primaries is to find the best candidate out there that can represent us. If we're just going to annoint someone as the candidate then why bother with primaries? We'll just let the first person who announces their candidancy be the candidate and take away the electorial process from the people.

[dolstein]

31. That's a nice post, but this is the real world

And in the real world, it's going to cost around $15-20 million to defeat Arlen Specter. Sorry, but that's the reality, as painful and unseemly as it may be. And it's going to be hard enough for a Democrat to do that without a contested primary.

Somehwere Karl Rove is laughing his ass off, and thanking his lucky starts that his new best buddy, Charlie, is coming to the GOP's rescue.

[LynneSin]

35. Here's real world for you

We aren't going to improve the democratic party if we're never allowed to have a choice of who we feel is the best candidate. Who know if Crystle has the ability to win in PA, but shouldn't democrats in PA have a choice for which candidate they feel best represents them? I'm really glad Ed Rendell didn't have you as a campaign advisor when he decided to run against Bob Casey Jr in the primaries. I mean, Ed was a double digit underdog for the longest time, Casey had the endorsements from the PA democratic party and the republicans weren't going to run anyone against Mike Fisher in the primaries.

I would suggest not quitting your day job.

If Hoeffel doesn't want the heat then he shouldn't run. But if the democrats are to survive, we need to create excitement in our party and not keep offering the same old dish every election.

And btw, yes, I am corrected. Joe Biden did serve 2 years on the Wilmington City Council. Hardly a stepping stone career to go from that to US Senator and running for office while he was still technically not eligible to be a US Senator. (I think he turned 30 right around the time of his election)

[dolstein]

36. Apples and Oranges

Ed Rendell had every right to run against Casey -- he was mayor of Philadelphia, and a damn good one at that. It's not as if he was a political novice with a few million dollars burning a hole in his pocket to simply decided "gee, I think it would be fun to run for governor." Plus, this was an open seat -- Schweicker, who took over for Ridge, decided not to run.


Personally, I think Democrats in Pennsylvania are far more interested in getting rid of Specter than catching a ride with Crystle on his massive, self-financed ego trip. He'll lose the primary, but not before depleting Hoeffel's bank account. And he won't even have the decency to endorse Hoeffel once the primary is over. With Democrats like Crystle, who needs Republicans?

[LynneSin]

40. I'm so glad you mentioned "Apples and Oranges"

Because we should have choice when it comes to who we can vote for in the primaries instead of "Here's your candidate, maybe you'll like him, maybe you won't, but if you don't tough luck you aren't allowed to have a choice".

Step back a second and think about that one. Doesn't that take away from the whole democratic process. Personally, with attitudes like yours, who needs democrats or for that matter democracy.

[jiacinto]

63. Well then

If Specter wins re-election by a very narrow margin, and it is due to the fact that Hoeffel had a bloody primary, then I will say I told you so.

[salin]

67. why not

volunteer to help with the election of the democratic primary winner to help ensure that this is not the scenario?

Or do people like you and dolstien get to play democraticparty God and determine who should run (with NO process in place to actually determine this is the best candidate, or the candidate that wil appeal ot the most voters) - and the rest of us should just fall in line and vote because we trust your patronizing souls to always do what is in our - mere little voter ants - best interest.

[jiacinto]

68. I will be in Florida

I have enough problems down there on my hands to deal with than th come up to PA.

[salin]

70. my point is

working for the candidate is the best way to ensure that he/she wins. Advocating for cutting off the primary system is not going to do it. Even if you are going to be in Florida, I bet you still have PA contacts - and at least one or two of those folks have to be non_GOP. Start working now to see if you can't get one of those folks to put a little legwork in on the campaign.

Advocating for essentially cutting off the primary system is NOT good for democracy. Getting more people involved in the primary campaigning, or in the general campaign IS good for democracy.

[jiacinto]

72. Unfortunately

all my friends are Republican coneservatives.

[salin]

74. sounds like your conservative college

beats my conservative college (which produced Dan Quayle, but also Vernon Jordon). As we have aged there are a number of us progressive democrats that claim DePauw as our alma mater.

[jiacinto]

75. I am from Dickinson College

I am right now one of only two alumni who are actively involved somewhat in Democratic causes.

[salin]

76. I knew a big liiberal from Dickinson

but she would have graduated back in 1985 or thereabouts.

[jiacinto]

77. As I said

With the exception of one other person, to my knowledge, I am currently the only alumni from my era (the late 1990s early 2000s) who is active within Democratic Party politics. The rest are involved with the Republicans.

[salin]

79. keep at 'em

maybe ten years from now the bushenronomy will have woken a few of those folks up enough for them to rethink their basic political assumptions. Stranger things have happened. :shrug:

[jiacinto]

80. I doubt it

I simply don't talk politics with them

[LynneSin]

81. Four years in PA does not make you an expert on PA Politics

I've spent 35 years in Pennsylvania including my 4 years of college in a very republican area (Lebanon Valley College) and growing up in suburban West Shore(Cumberland County) and rural Perry county.

I know what's important to Pennsylvanians because my family still lives there in Central PA. Right now they know one candidate running for US Senate and that's Arlen Specter. The only reason they voted for Rick Santorum is they never heard of Ron Klink except for the mudslinging ads that the Santorum people kept running in the area. And in 2002, they thought they were resolved to fact that Bob Casey Jr was going to end up being their governor again until they starting reading about Ed Rendell in the PRIMARIES. And believe me, they had no idea who Ed Rendell was until those primaries. (Oddly enough Philadelphia is only a small portion of PA).

Whether it's your four of attending college in PA or my 35+ years of living and working in PA, we both have something in common - neither of us live in PA and neither of us should say what's best for PA. Let them have a primary and Pennsylvanians will decide who is the best candidate.

You know, if Pennsylvania based your ideologies on their governor elections, Bob Casey Jr would have been governor now. Casey and Rendell ran an expensive primary and yet Rendell still overwhelmingly beat Mike Fisher in the fall election. (which Casey was suppose to be the heir apparant for the throne). However, that expensive primary was a major boost for Ed Rendell; I know I have many family and friends in Central PA who liked what they saw in Rendell during the primaries and voted for him in the fall election.

And don't forget that Specter has a costly primary of his own. Neo-Conservatives would love nothing more than to see Wishy-Washy Arlen booted for a Rick Santarium clone. And I'm sure the typical neo-con financial backers will be out in full force to help get Pat Toomey on the ticket. (and although he would never admit it publically, I would suspect Ricky would love nothing more than to have another neo-con repuke serving with him in DC).

[jiacinto]

83. Central PA will vote Republican no matter what

There is a difference between the Casey and Rendell primaries. Casey had electoral experience and held office. Rendell had been Mayor of Philadelphia.

What has Crystale ever done politically? What office has held? Has he ever worked in government?

The answer to those questions are no, none, and no again. He isn't qualified for the position.

[LynneSin]

84. Um, What party does Tim Holden belong to?

pretty much blows that theory out of the water!

Oh and on an edit note: Many of the republicans I know are backing Tim Holden again because Tim has made numerous appearances with the Bethelem Steel and Union protests for Universal Health Care.

[jiacinto]

87. Ok you got me there

He does represent Harrisburg; but, before Holden won last year, that area had not elected Democrats for years, if not decades. I think the last Democrat to represent Harrisburg in the US House was elected in 1980 and his seat had to extend all the way to Scranton for him to hold onto it.

Besides Holden there are few, if any, elected Democrats in that part of the state. Even Rendell fared poorly in the Harrisburg/York/Lancaster area in 2002.

[glasschains]

44. That attitude is what hurts the Party.

It's a free country and running for office is a part of poilitcal speech and political expression. How DARE you be against that?!

[salin]

62. for the few

at DU, this is common. A very Patronizing view of democracy - in which these few - in their great wisdom and knowledge of elections (though I believe the few tend to be a bit younger than most duers and actually have less political experience.. but thats another story) - THEY should be able to discern WHO the single candidate should be "for the good of the party". Other candidates should step aside "for the good of the party". All members of the party should ALWAYS vote for the selected nominee "for the good of the party" regardless of that candidates positions or records on issues.

I am beginning to think that this is the "anti-democracy" branch of the democratic party.

[jiacinto]

34. I disagree

I really do here. Biden did hold elective office before he won in 1972. He was on the Wilmington City Council, I believe. Crystale has never held elective office.

The other difference between Corzine and Crystale is that all the major Democrats in the state chose not to run.

[NewJerseyDem]

37. Corzine had primary opponent

Jim Florio ran against Corzine in the primary. Also, Frank Pallone was considering a run for Senate but decided against it after Corzine was already in the race. There were certainly major democrats running but Corzine ran anyway. Now, there is still a difference between New Jersey's race and Pennsylvania's. Florio was obviously quite unpopular and Corzine had plenty of money to run on if he won. But, if Florio had won the primary than he would have been drained out of money and would have been hurt by the primary all because of Corzine.

[Mixxster]

41. A couple of points

1.) Well said, LynneSin.

2.) Charlie, I look forward to you running for mayor. You'd have to be a huge improvement over our current Charlie.

3.) I wonder if some of you would be so vitriolic toward a newcomer challenger who wasn't rich. The automatic dismissal of Crystal's stated motives because he's wealthy bothers me. Many people are assuming his candidacy is an ego trip without ever having met him, researched his ideas, etc.


Disclaimer: I have never met Charlie Crystal.

[glasschains]

45. Some people equate wealth with evil

Holdovers from the old Soviet regime I guess.

[Merlin]

48. Your remark would make Nixon proud.

But I don't particularly appreciate you insinuation. In our circle, we call it "Redbaiting."

If you're going to lurk on this board, keep your redbaiting in check.

[Merlin]

47. So you like our current "Charlie" a lot, do you? Tell me why.

That would be Republican Charlie Smithgall.

He's certainly brought a lot of fireworks to Lancaster. (The guy loves fireworks. He'll find any excuse to have them. We have about one show a month here. He collects real, live military artillery pieces.)

[LynneSin]

49. This Charlie isn't running for Mayor

From an ex Central Pennsylvanian (Perry County), democrats have a challenge winning offices in that area. Tim Holden is probably the only exception because he is a moderate and George Gekas was a doddering old fool that reminded me of a Strom Thurmond Jr. Even my republican family didn't want Gekas as their representative

[Merlin]

50. I've always thought it was his over-the-top on impeachment

that did him in. How did that play in his district?

I was absolutely thrilled when he went down. I'd like to see all the impeachers suffer a similar fate. There aren't too many left.

[Mixxster]

69. "This Charlie isn't running for Mayor"

LynneSin,

I made my comment based on Charlie Crystal's above post where he wrote:

I'd love to be mayor someday--I love my town and would love to serve here sometime.

[Mixxster]

66. Are you talking to me, Merlin?

If so, I'm totally confused. My comment was:

2.) Charlie, I look forward to you running for mayor. You'd have to be a huge improvement over our current Charlie.

What part of that implies that I am, in any way, a Smithgall fan?

[Merlin]

102. I APOLOGIZE! I misinterpreted your comment. Thanks for clearing it up.

My humble apologies. I read it as "You'd have to be huge to be an improvement over our current Charlie." (Of course, that would be true if one were talking about size!)

Anyhow, sorry for getting this wrong.

I was also influenced by the fact that a couple of fairly obvious freepers have just joined the board to participate in this thread.

[Mixxster]

147. NBD.

My humble apologies.

No problem, Merlin. It just shocked me that anyone would accuse me of being of fan of Charlie Smithgall, the spineless wonder.

I read it as "You'd have to be huge to be an improvement over our current Charlie." (Of course, that would be true if one were talking about size!)

You got that right. Apparently, even a heart attack didn't encourage the mayor to shed weight.

[Efilroft Sul]

51. Run, Chuck, Run...

...especially if Hoeffel is the chosen one of the state Democratic Party. Why? Peep these numbers:

Pennsylvania Democrats are 1 for 13 in U.S. Senate elections since 1964.

The Pennsylvania congressional delegation is Republican dominated: 12 to 7.

Pennsylvania Democrats are 4 for 18 in the previous 22 statewide judicial elections.

The Pennsylvania state House is Republican dominated: 109 to 94.

The Pennsylvania state Senate is Republican dominated: 29 to 21.

Hell, even Rendell wasn't endorsed by the party bigwigs; they chose Casey for the gubernatorial primary. With a state Democratic Party like Pennsylvania's, being the endorsed candidate might as well be your political kiss of death.

Some here say Crystle doesn't have the experience to run. Well, look what endorsed Democratic candidates got for Pennsylvania over the past 39 years -- experience at LOSING. Quite frankly, the Pennsylvania Democratic Party is probably the worst in the country. So let's see where Crystle stands on the issues vs. Hoeffel and give him his fair shot. He has more than his right to be a candidate, given the futile record of the state Democratic Party.

[Merlin]

52. The main objection I'm hearing is about the money.

It's about fundraising. That's all it is.

Hoeffel supporters don't really believe they have a serious challenger on their hands. At least, that's what I'm hearing. Everybody is saying he'll beat Crystle hands down.

So it's about the money. Period.

If that's all it is, relax!

A contested primary is good for name recognition. Joe Hoeffel has virtually no name recognition across the state. He and Crystle are starting from practically the same level in that regard. The primary fight will force the winner's campaign to get into gear all across the state. It will familiarize news media all across the state with them and their positions.

Contested primaries can be a very good thing.

As for the money, don't worry about it. If the contender for Specter's seat has any chance at all against that single-bullet son-of-a-bitch, the money will be there. Believe me. It'll be there.

[OldCurmudgeon]

57. it would be good to oust Specter

but what we'd all like to see is Santorum run out of office. On a rail. With tar. And feathers.

[LynneSin]

58. Excellent points

Joe Hoeffel has no name recognition outside of the Philadelphia area. Sure, you can say Joe Hoeffel here in DU and we know who he is. But when I ask my parents and friends who live in Central PA "Who is Joe Hoeffel?" they don't have a clue. And no, they don't know who Charlie Crystle OR Pat Toomey is either. But they do know who Arlen Specter is and will probably end up voting for Arlen if they don't know who the other candidates are or how they can benefit from electing one of the other candidates. (And even though they are all republican - they all voted for Rendell, probably cause I kept talking up Rendell and how he was a better choice over Fisher, so they are open to other parties). A primary will force both of these candidates to get out there now and garner up support for their campaign and will pay off in the fall.

As for Crystle's statement for 'Not endorsing Hoeffel', his comment was based simply on "If he goes negative, then I'd be unlikely to endorse his candidacy". I think that's a fair statement. I'm sure Hoeffel will go out of his way to paint the picture that he's the better choice because of experience, but I think if EITHER candidate has to resort to name-calling and mud-slinging in order to win the primary that candidate, whoever he is, doesn't deserve to get an endorsement from the other. Personally, I don't think it's in the nature of either democratic candidate to use such tactics. I think the only mud-slinging style candidancy we see will come from the Pat Toomey group. Neo-cons love nothing more than to play the dirty campaign

[Merlin]

103. Same to you.

Good post! Points well taken, all.

[dolstein]

56. Does anybody know whether Charlie supported Gore in 2000?

Or did he vote for Nader?

[salin]

59. What makes you suspect this - or is it a generalized

smear attempt?

One thing to be anti-democracy (primary... we don't need a stinkin' primary - let "me" decide who should run - you all just fall in line because I am all knowing as to what is good for you!) Another to be intentionally defamatory towards democrats (as you are prone to call other DUers on the carpet for indulging in such behavior). Now you chose to do both on this thread?

Why?

Ironically, I believe a number of sitting Senators - had no political experience prior to their first run. And given that they are sitting senators... its not too presumptious to think... even with NO experience... they won!

I know nothing about the candidates. No favoritism. But I do believe in the primary process. And have to heartily disagree with those who want to knock out parts of our democratic process.

[jiacinto]

61. This place is dominated by Nader extremists

and apologists.

[salin]

64. Dominated? Really

You are slipping back into old rhetoric that even YOU have conceded is not true, and who even YOU have backed off and reworded this.... DU is NOT dominated by proNader people.

Sadly, you discredit yourself when you get so sloppy with the broad brush, and it diminishes your message.

[dolstein]

89. Smear attempt? I just asked a simple question.

Hoeffel's a sitting Congressman -- I know what he was doing in the fall of 2000. But what was Charlie doing to stop the Republicans from taking over the White House? I certainly think it's fair to ask what support he gave, if any, to the Democratic presidential candidate in 2000. I certainly hope that, like Rendell, Hoeffel and other Democratic leaders throughout the state of Pennsylvania, he was working hard to deliver his state's electoral votes to Gore. But honestly, I don't know.

[salin]

93. smear - unless there is reason to suspect this is true

otherwise it smacks of more anti-democratic approaches.

[dolstein]

108. Salin -- you're beginning to sound desparate

I thought you were defending the right of the Democratic voters to choose their nominee. But how can you seek to deny these same voters the right to know whether Charlie supported the party's standard bearer in the 2000 presidential election? I think it's more than fair to ask someone with so meager a record in politics to divulge whether or not he has supported his party's nominees in the past -- particularly when he refuses to rule out endorsing a candidate from an another party in the event his loses the primary.

[LynneSin]

109. It's fair to ask but wrong to assume

I'm sure Mr. Crystle has no problems with sharing with DU who he voted for in the 2000 election and since he does have a membership here, I'm sure he would be happy to share his voting record with you when he is available to do so.

But until then, we have no right to make assumptions of who he voted for. I know there are strong pro and anti-green sentiments here, let's not make assumptions about his ties to the Green party unless you can back it up with strong undeniable proof. Personally, if he was a Nadar backer, wouldn't you think he'd run on the Green party so he wouldn't have to waste all his money on a primary?

[dolstein]

Who's assuming? I'm just asking.

I'm not assuming anything one way or another. As far as I can tell, having read his bio, Charlie's involvement in Democratic Party politics has been minimal at best. I think it's certainly fair to ask whether he has supported Democratic nominees in the past -- particulary when he refuses to rule out supporting someone other than the Democratic nominee in the event he loses the primary. Has Charlie even voted in previous Democratic primaries? You can be pretty damn sure he'll be asked that question -- after all, Corzine was asked about it.

[LynneSin]

116. In all fairness to your original question

it was actually someone else who brought up the Green issue in order to bait the topic. I've met with Charlie and I'm almost positive he mentioned he voted for Gore, but as with that whole assumption thing - it's best that we hear it from him and not as hearsay.

[salin]

111. I am questioning YOUR tactics and wondering WHY you

suspect this?

In any race a candidate should talk about their background - and if that includes supporting third party candidates - that should be included.

I am challenging you, at this point in time, because you were already supporting denying voters a chance to have a choice in the primary, and when that gained no traction - you throw the distraction Green Card. IF you have a reason to suspect this, then at this point it is a fair question. But without having a reason to suspect this - given this particular thread and conversation - I do suspect your motives and call you on them.

Point being - I have more reason, based on this thread, to suspect that your motives in this question are about an attempt to smear, than I have to suspect that this candidate "voted green" in 2000. If you can give me reason - based on something other than a smear, to raise this question in this particular conversation at this particular point in the conversation, than I stand corrected.

[dolstein]

117. My motive is the same as any real Democrat

and that is to elect a Democrat to the Senate from Pennsylvania. I had hoped this would be Charlie's goal too, but judging from his own remarks, he may not be supporting the Democratic nominee in the fall of 2004. If Hoeffel refuses to pledge to support the eventual winner of the primary, I'd slam him too, and deservedly so.

Is think the fact that Charlie has had virtually no involvement in Democratic party politics up to this point and refuses to pledge to support the party's nominee in the general election make it more than legitimate to ask about his support for previous Democratic candidates.

[LynneSin]

120. Clarification on the "Hoeffel Endorsement"

Charlie's only comment about endorsing Hoeffel is if Joe were to run a dirty campaign he would have problems with the endorsement. I've had many opportunities to speak with Mr. Crystle and I've lived a street away from being in Joe Hoeffel's district; neither candidate seems like the type of candidate to use dirty tactics to run a campaign. In fact, the only dirty candidate I can see in this 4 man race is Pat Toomey, but that's because neo-cons in PA tend to run dirty (aka - Sanatarium style).

I would truly believe if Charlie was beat in a fair and clean race (clean meaning none of the dirty, mud-slinging campaign crap), he would have no problems with endorsing Hoeffel. I would suspect the same if the opposite were true.

[salin]

121. Woaw... relish the moment...

(and if we can't laugh at ourselves... then who can we laugh at?)

I reread the interchange which sparked your question. When I read that interchange the first time around - I read something different (hadn't caught this was the candidate). Man, in the first skim I really missed the mark. Fifty lashes with a wet noodle for me!

I see why you are asking the question. And indeed, it is fair.

Please accept my appology.

Also please realize that to my eyes when I questioned you - I didn't see the "spark" so the question really seemed left field - which is why - given the earlier parts of the conversation thread - I read your question as I did.

Again, I appologize.

[salin]

65. This thread makes me wonder

is their a patronizing, anti-democracy wing of the democratic party? That the few (who???) should decide in advance with NO input from the people who the anointed candidate should be - and all the rest should blindly fall in line (other candidates bow out - to protect the anointed one; and all voters vote blindly because the patronizing selectors tell us it is best for us).

Terribly sad to read/see. I think this branch of the party may be doing more to supress voter turnout than it is doing to expand voter turnout.

[LynneSin]

73. After reading this entire thread I see 2 camps

It seems the majority (outside the candidate himself who has posted on this thread) are open to the idea of having a democratic primary in Pennsylvania which offers two very unique candidates on the ticket. You have Joe Hoeffel, who brings experience and a moderate-leaning record to the table and this may bring strong appeal to PA, which tends to go for moderate candidates (well, except Sanatarium) and you have Crystle, who is the New Kid on the Block who wants believes we need new blood in the Senate instead of the same type of candidates rehashed. Personally, I think both have great qualities that makes them qualified to be US Senator.

But yet I see a small group that doesn't want PA to have a choice when it comes to the election this fall. Should we just change PA's electorial process and let the PA Democratic Party pick the candidate they want to run and say "Screw You" to the people. Heck, if that were the case PA would have Bob Casey Jr. as their Governor. (I don't think anyone like Mike Fisher as governor).

Let there be a choice in Pennsylvania. Believe me, I lived there for long enough and wished I had choices to vote for, especially when I was stuck with Bob Casey Sr. as my governor! And this isn't just in PA, I would never be critical if another democrat would decide to run against one of the incumbant dems in office. I highly doubt there would be anyone who could sway me against Biden or Minner, but if a more progressive candidate were to run against Tom Carper I know I would consider that candidate.

[salin]

78. that second camp

concerns me - not just on this thread, but in a bigger picture sort of way. I will get back to this thought at a later point in time. Have tons of work to do. But there seems to be a patronizing tone, an anti-democracy tone, and it comes from some of the same corners that I believe, at times, have gotten very angry with groups of traditional democrats who have either started defecting (going green out of frustration), or just not voting (eg urban poor, and some african american communities have had depressed voter turnout). Instead of reflecting WHY - there is a knee-jerk response against these groups (I get that line of thinking)... they (the groups) are the problem! Yet at the same time - these are the same who might advocate for the patronizing approach of the "powers that be" (i guess themselves) select the candidate with NO input from a "costly primary"... and can't quite see where this approach contributes to the continued defection or depression of voting from some traditional democratic constituencies?

Is it just me - or do these approaches spell "train wreck?"

[LynneSin]

82. I'm concerned about that too!

I fondly recall the 2002 mid-term elections and the months of complaining up until the November election. Biggest complaint - they didn't like the democrat on the ticket for the election. And yet when myself or someone else asked who did they vote for in the primaries, the biggest answer was "The candidate ran unopposed".

[salin]

96. at least regionally, here

some of the "unopposed" candidates are due to "coaching" by the party to give one candidate a clear shot. Sound familiar?

Also, why is building state-wide name recognition - as a contested primary would do - a bad thing when one is likely to run against a very widely known sitting Senator?

[jiacinto]

88. My objections to Crystle

1. He has never held office.
2. He has never worked in government.
3. He has little to no experience of working in the local community.

Maybe if he had one of the three things listed above on his resume I would be more charitable toward his candidacy.

[LynneSin]

90. Knowing those qualifications would have kept...

most of our founding fathers out of politics.

Government was never meant to be a lifetime career but an organization represented of the people, by people for the people. Today the only people with true represenation in DC are the corporations and special interest groups. I think you'll find that a majority of us here at DU would like to see that change, but discouraging primaries and "no experience" candidates, we should just allow those with CEO next to their name to vote and tell us little people to just go home and deal with it!

[jiacinto]

91. Again

Lynne, if Crystle were running for a House Seat, State Senate, or State House, I would be more charitable toward him. However, this is a STATEWIDE campaign. And he simply hasn't the background and the qualifications for a run for an office of this magnitude.

[chiburb]

95. Man, you'd HATE Illinois....

Where the likely winner of a 6 person Dem primary will be a mega-bucks business man with no political experience. Of course he'll eventually win the seat held by a Republican mega-bucks business man with no political experience, Peter Fitzgerald.
One question:
Wouldn't your logic (lack of experience) pretty much rule out a NATIONWIDE run for office by any Governor? Wouldn't you have to have the experience of holding a FEDERAL office, preferably in the Senate, to be considered for President?

[jiacinto]

97. Actually

JFK was the only Senator ever elected. And Governors actually have to be presidents of their own state so they are qualified for president.

But Cyrstle has held no elective office, done little politically before now. If he had done something more than just jump in now I would be less inclined to be against his candidacy.

[salin]

105. Wondering about the elected background of several senators

I really don't recall these folks pre-senate - so maybe they were elected officials, maybe not - just curious - does anyone know?


Senator Russ Feingold
Senator Herb Kohl
Former Senator Spencer Abraham (gop)
Former Senator Dennis DeConcini

We also know that the late Senator Wellstone had not held elective office prior to his successful senate run.

I am sure there are others. I don't think this is unprecedented.

[LynneSin]

98. SO what?

Open your damn mind and as my boss would say "THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!"

If you can show me ONE document that says only those people who have experience can run for US Senate, I'll shut my mouth right now.

But knowing that the only qualification is, I think, you have to be 30 years old, it seems that Charlie is well qualified then to run for office.

Well let's see what our government says about this??

http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/lps12426/www.senate.gov/learning/brief_19.html

Constitutional Qualifications for Senator

According to Article I, Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution, a senator must be 30 years of age, a citizen of the United States for 9 years, and must reside in the state he or she represents at the time of election.

Well let's see Charlie Crystle is:

• 30 years of age - He's in his mid thirties so that qualifies.
  
• citizen of the United States Charlie has always been a citizen of the US, being born and raised in this country
  
• must reside in the state he or she represents at the time of election - outside of schooling, Charlie has spent most of his life in Pennsylvania
  

Now, can you please share with me in this document where they discuss how much experience Charlie needs in order to be "qualified" to run for US Senate. Personally, I think they left the qualifications with just those 3 items to ENCOURAGE a more diverse group of people to run for office.

[jiacinto]

100. I never said Crystle didn't have the right to run

But he lacks the experience that Hoeffel has. Hoeffel is more qualified to be a Senator than Crystle.

Crystle can run--he has every right to. I've never said that he can't run or tha the law prohibits him from doing so.

But Crystle is a guaranteed loser. Why you don't realize that, I don't know.

[salin]

115. I think the resistance you are getting is from the impression

that you were joining Dolstien in saying that he shouldn't run at all.

If, you are saying he should run, but that he would not be your candidate of choice - we are in agreement. In the sense that the process should work - and then each voter should be able to determine whether or not he is the candidate of their choice.

Confusion cleared up. :D

[LynneSin]

118. I'm with Salin

Let the primaries begin!!!!!

[jiacinto]

122. well

Crystle has every right to if he wants to. If he wants to run that's his right. I've never said that he couldn't run if he didn't want to. I never said that he didn't have the right to run. I just think that his campaign is going to be a more negative than positive influence.

Personally I would rather not have Crystle in the race. I think it would hurt us for the general election.

[salin]

126. I understand your position

and am glad to clear up the confusion.

[LynneSin]

128. Your opinion is noted let the primary season begin!!!

Crystle is in the race and there is nothing that anyone can do about this.

Personally I think if Dems are to beat Specter, a primary is almost a must. We have 2 candidates with very little name recognition outside the area where they are located. The primaries will build a stronger candidate and all the issues will have been flushed out in the primaries. My only hope is that Hoeffel and Crystle can keep this a clean fight and I suspect that is something we'll see. And unlike the dem primaries for Santarium, we have 2 candidates from 2 different areas of the dem partyand 2 different regions of the state. The 2000 primaries hurt the democratic party in the Sanatarium race because too many ran from the Philly area and split the Philly vote and a poorly funded candidate ended up on the democratic ticket. But then again, isn't that the nature of the democratic process that I've been harping about?

[jiacinto]

129. I want to win the seat

And honestly I see this primary creating the problem that happened in the Santorum race.

[LynneSin]

132. Now that is "apples and oranges"

In 2000, everyone thought Santorum was vulnerable and we ended up with 7-8 democrats running in the primaries. What hurt was some areas of the state fielded more than one candidate like the Philly area with both Allyson Schwartz (who had a strong Emily's List backing) and Tom Foley both running in the primaries. Unfortunately they split the Philly vote giving lesser candidates a chance to win in PA. We ended up with a Western PA candidate who didn't have the funds to run in the primaries and lost our golden opportunity to get Santarium out of off (btw, I know I misspell Ricky's name - I do that on purpose).

So far, none of those candidates who ran in 2000 have show any indication of running in 2002 against Specter. Probably because Specter himself is a tough race because PA likes their moderate senior senator - even democrats have a tendency to vote for him.

So we have 2 candidates. They come from different areas of the state and they both have different backgrounds and ideologies to offer to Pennsylvanians. I don't see a 2000 primary election scenario here, I see a 2002 primary election which pitted 2 candidates who ran a tough race and from that race their name recognition shot through the roof. After the primaries, the state of Pennsylvania knew Ed Rendell, no one knew Ron Klink after the 2000 fiasco.

For all we know more candidates might join in, but I would suspect we'd be hearing something along the rumor mills about it. I think Allyson Schwartz is waiting for another run against Santarium because a strong pro-choice woman would be an excellent candidate against that idiot.

This primary race in PA will build two very strong candidates. Let's let the process work it's magic!

[jiacinto]

133. I think the "magic" will be more like voodoo

and we are the dolls that will have the pins suck inside of.

[Merlin]

110. What happens to Hoeffel's seat?

If Joe is such a great campaigner, and so popular in Montco, why is he going to give up his seat to take on the long shot challenge of Specter?

Who will replace him? This is not ordinarily a Dem seat. We'd need a damn good candidate to hold it.

[LynneSin]

113. He barely won his 2002 re-election

But that's because they redistricted the hell out of his territory making his republican leaning district hardcore.

Rumor has it that Allyson Schwartz may run for the seat and I adore that gal!

[jiacinto]

123. Section 8 Housing

I thought the seat picked up NE Philadelphia, which normally votes Democratic. It was Section 8 Housing that almost doomed him.

[Merlin]

125. So what will happen to his seat?

I think that's damn important, don't you?

[jiacinto]

127. Well

Dems need to clobber the GOP in the NE Phila part of the seat and break even in Mont. County to win.

[Merlin]

130. So why isn't it irresponsible of Hoeffel to run against Arlen?

Isn't it exchanging a sure house seat for a long shot at unseating a sitting Senator?

[jiacinto]

131. He represents a key area of the state

And he has the best chance or reducing Specter's margins there.

[Merlin]

134. Your logic does not hold.

He has a sure seat in the US House. Why in the hell would he give it up for a long shot at a senate seat, a shot that's been lost by:

John Logue
Herb Denenberg
Cyril Wecht
Bob Edgar
Lynn Yeakel

and a couple more whos' names escape me?

It doesn't make sense--unless he's sure he can't win his House seat back again... in which case your logic still does not hold because it means he doesn't have the clout to carry his home district.

[LynneSin]

136. His seat isn't really that sure

Repukes redistricted the hell out of his district taking a moderate republican leaning district and making it a strong republican leaning. The repukes really thought they would give Hoeffel the boot in 2002 and he barely squeaked by.

[Merlin]

138. But doesn't Hoeffel have a far better chance of winning his current seat?

Let's see, he won it in '02 despite the redistricting. Nobody has beat Arlen in the 36 years or so since he got his payoff for engineering the JFK assassination cover-up. I'd say his odds of keeping his House seat are a hell of a lot better than his odds of bumping off the Single-Bullet Kid.

[LynneSin]

139. It's a toss up there

But pundits think Melissa Brown, the gal that lost to Hoeffel in 2002 might have a strong shot to win the seat in 2004.

That whole area is really a bizarre area to predict, but they have no problems with splitting their votes between the parties.

[jiacinto]

144. How does adding NE Philadelphia make it more Republican?

I don't see that necessarily. I thought they wanted to pit Bob Borski and Joe Hoeffel together so that one would go. But the seat should be easier for Democrats, not harder.

He almost lost because of the Section 8 housing issue.

[LynneSin]

152. They didn't leave enough Philly in there to counter Montco...

That map does NOT include alot of Philadelphia, but just enough to lump Borski into the same district. But that map is where I worked and lived for 12 years (although I lived just on the line in Greenwood territory). There weren't many democrats in that Lansdale, Montgomeryville, Ambler area. That district solved 2 problems - eliminate a democrat and make the district harder for the remaining dem to win.

The border of New Jersey to Route 1 is clearly part of Philadelphia County. I think that grey line between Route 1 and Glenside is the county cutoff between Philadelphia and Montgomery Counties. And the part of Philadelphia County that Hoeffel inherited is probably the most republican leaning part of the entire Philadelphia County.

I spent 12 years in that area working for a variety of campaigns and believe me, the Republicans fixed it so they could eventually take back that seat. They really expected Joe Hoeffel to go down in 2002 because NE Philly was pissed that Borski didn't run and Montco was loaded with republicans. And if I'm correct, in redistricting one area that Hoeffel lost was Norristown, the biggest urban area in Montco and another democratic stronghold.

Now maybe my 12 years of living in that area doesn't quite match your 4 years of attending college in Central PA, but I have picked up a few things here and there living in the Philly suburbs and working on countless campaigns: Philly Democratic and the further you drive away from Philly the more republican it becomes, but those suburban voters will split votes if they feel like it.

[jiacinto]

155. Ok

I thought it took in the ENTIRE NE part of Phila. Never mind.

[Freddie Stubbs]

159. His seat will probably go Republican

It is a Republican district. Hoeffel was first elected in 1998 by defeating a very weak imcumbent, Joe Hoeffel. He would have a good chance of hold the seat due to imcumbantcy, but I am not to optimistic about holding it in when it is an open seat.

[LynneSin]

160. I think you meant Jon Fox

You had Joe Hoeffel beating himself as the incumbant.

Yeah, I was glad to see Jon Fox go, it was like Newt Gingrich had a second district with the PA-13

[Merlin]

119. Actually, Charlie sounds like a guy we'd all like. Check this out.

It's a Business Week interview from March.

MARCH 26, 2003

ENTREPRENEUR Q&A

"You Must Hire the Right People"
So says Chili!Soft founder Charlie Crystle, whose candid comments about his startup are a sobering lesson for starry-eyed entrepreneurs
Back in 1996, musician-turned-entrepreneur Charlie Crystle teamed up with a group of fellow software developers in his hometown of Lancaster, Pa., to create Chili!Soft, an outfit that would be sold to Cobalt Neworks for $70 million before passing to Sun Microsystems in September, 2000. Crystle, 35, was long gone by that stage -- literally. Burned out by the stress and hassles of shepherding a startup from conception to success, he spent two therapeutic months relaxing in South America, where he made three decisions.

The first was to donate the bulk of his newly acquired fortune to charities fostering development in the Third World. The second concerned his next planned venture, Mission Research, which was inspired his observation that nongovernment aid agencies need software that reduces administrative overheads and allows more money to be spent in the field, where it can do the most good.

...

Q: How did you initially fund the idea?
A: Through the remnants of the services income, then mom. My friend Paul Zimmerman bailed us out when the sheriff came around to shut us down for nonpayment of bills in the summer of '97. But it was mostly Mom -- she took loans against her house, and I took no salary for about a year...

...

Q: So, now you're bouncing back with more tech innovation. Tell me about your new company, Mission Research?
A: Mission Research is an advanced software-technology company dedicated to helping nonprofit organizations (NPOs) focus more resources on core missions and less on running their operations. We spent the first six months conducting research before writing any code. We were stunned at the complete absence of affordable, easy-to-use software that doesn't require training...

<<more>>

http://www.businessweek.com:/print/smallbiz/content/mar2003/sb20030326_3034.htm?sb

[Merlin]

124. Another interview with Charlie Crystle. Sounds like a successful idealist.

(Also, this web site looks like a good place to follow PA developments.)

PoliticsPA

An Interview with Charlie Crystle
<undated>

Meet Charlie Crystle, the newest addition to the list of Democrats considering a run for Senate in 2004. Crystle, a software company founder, philanthropist, and musician spoke with us recently...

...I am not a native New Yorker and my family and longtime friends are in Lancaster. 9/11 had a deep effect on me and played a part in my decision to move home. 11 firefighters from the station next to my loft on Great Jones Street died that morning, as well as a friend of mine from school, for whom I spent several days searching through NY hospitals and morgues. A lot of people had it much tougher than I, of course, but it deeply affected me in ways that surprised me and changed me in some ways, including giving me the desire to be closer to my family and friends. That period definitely galvanized my view of the world and my role in it. There are few days that go by that I waste time on petty issues, and I spend a lot of time working on things that will positively affect the world.

Tell us which Pennsylvania Democrat you admire most and why? Give us an idea ideologically where you stand?

CC: I admire a number of PA Democrats for different reasons; Ed Rendell for his pragmatic yet optimistic approach to problems, Mike Sturla for his unwavering service. Looking beyond PA I admire Jimmy Carter for his unmatched generosity of spirit and contribution to the world, the late Paul Wellstone for his integrity and ability to run a grass roots campaign (the only legitimate kind in my view), Mario Cuomo for his inspirational speeches, and Bill Clinton for his sorely missed ability to clearly articulate the issues and connect them with every-day people.

Ideologically I’m either a conservative or moderate Democrat, depending on whether someone views me standing in Lancaster County or on South Street. I’m socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I deeply believe America is the greatest country in the world and I wish it would behave that way. We have so much power to do good in the world and within our borders, we just lack the will. I believe in democracy and democratic principles, including broad civil liberties and a strong legal system. I believe in fiscal responsibility and that deficit spending combined with a tax cut for the rich is a dangerous, unsound scheme designed by the rich for the rich. Sounds great, feels great, but we’ll feel the hangover about 12 months into it.

I don’t think Democrats have clearly articulated why the current tax cut is so bad for working families; the $1000 or so the average Pennsylvania family gets back is merely a short-term bribe to allow the bulk of the cuts to go to the rich, who really don’t need it and certainly won’t spend it on consumer goods. The rich have also tired of venture investment because they were burned so badly during the bubble; I doubt they’ll take their tax cut and invest it in my company or other startup companies like mine.
...

<<More>>

http://www.politicspa.com/FEATURES/Interviews/interviewcrystle.htm

[Vis Numar]

135. Hoeffel vs Crystle

Why is Hoeffel running? He supported Bushs invasion into Iraq, and is a DLC meme. He will lose. Crystle has a much better shot at winning. Hoeffel is soooo 2002.

[salin]

137. Hey Vis...

always enjoy seeing you here. Have you looked at all into the Indiana Gubenatorial race? If so, what are your thoughts?

[dolstein]

142. Funny, but Ed Rendell, who knows a thing or two about winning

statewide in Pennsylvania, would beg to differ. He's backing Hoeffel. How many Democrats who have actually succeeded in winning a statewide eleciton in Pennsylvania are backing Charlie?

[LynneSin]

143. Rumor has it Joe wouldn't run unless Ed & the dem party endorsed him

But then again Ed should know how many Dems won the governor election in 2002 with a full endorsement from the PA democratic party in the primaries.

[jiacinto]

145. What experience does Crystale have?

None whatsoever. Basing this decision on one issue is really stupid.

[LynneSin]

146. Basing your voting decision on experience only is pretty stupid too

which would have kept many fine politicians out of office.

Here's a silly notion - Let the folks from PA learn more about these candidates and we'll let them decide who is best.

BTW, didn't see you jump in on the thread about Sam Nunn's daughter running for US Senate. You know she has no political experience either, or does she get a free pass since her dad was a senator?

[jiacinto]

151. I didn't hear about it

It's not stupid. I don't think Crystale has what it takes to win.

[salin]

154. Prominent thread... and following the logic presented here

Andrew Young (also interested in running) who has been elected Mayor of Atlanta (held elected office), and was, I believe, an ambassador from the US to the UN, has credentials. Doesn't sound as if Nunns daugher does. Should she be discouraged from running on these grounds?

I think they all should run. Let the primary work.

But if one is going to be vocal on the "lack of experience" as the defining factor - than shouldn't that apply across states (same situation, different campaign races)?

[Forkboy]

149. D.A.D. strikes again

Democrats Against Democracy.

"All your votes are belong to us!"

[jiacinto]

150. Or D.A.W

Democrats Against Winning

[Merlin]

153. Yeah. Well if the establishment Dems were so damn good at winning...

we wouldn't be in this hellacious fix to begin with. I'm a little tired of all the prognostications of the veterans. All the party "Pros" seem to insist:
--Dean can't win
--Only Lieberman can win. Or maybe Gephardt.
--Dean and Kerry are too far to the Left.
--Iraq was a good idea.
--It was right to give our pResident a blank check to invade.
--The tax cuts were a good idea.
--We just need to be more like Republicans so maybe we can attract some of their votes.
--Anybody who didn't support the war can't win.

To which we're now supposed to believe:
--Only Joe Hoeffel can win against Specter.
--Hoeffel is correct to relinquish his House seat, because maybe he might lose it this time.

Well, I don't buy a word of it. The so called "Pros" have proven to me they don't know what they hell they're talking about. We're sitting here surrounded by not just Republicans, but a lexicon of rabid, right wing fanatics who are in power now because of the "guidance" of the current crop of Democratic "Pros."

I still want a good answer to the simple question:

WHY IS IT A SMART IDEA FOR HOEFFEL TO GIVE UP ON TRYING TO WIN ANOTHER TERM AS CONGRESSMAN. HE'S A GODAM INCUMBENT!!! WHY VOLUNTARILY GIVE UP THAT SEAT TO TAKE ON A 6-TERM INCUMBENT SENATOR?

Will somebody please tell me why he's being encouraged by the "Pros" to make this probably futile run against Specter and let his House seat probably go to a Republican. Where in the hell is the political logic in that move? I'd really, really like to know.

[Vis Numar]

158. Crystle's Experience

I just read his bio, sounds like he has, what we can call, REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE. When's the last time that Hoffell had a whif of the real world? I don't know what Joe's background is, but I would guess that he's been riding the chow as a US Rep and PA rep for sometime (PA Reps have a cush life), and has not a single clue as to what REAL AMERICANS are doing. Why else would Hoeffell vote for invading Iraq, other than he doesnt have a clue?

Anyway, here's Crystle's bio, and it's a hell of a lot more substantial than most of the current US Senators we have:

Charles Crystle is the founder and CEO of New York-based Mission Research, and is deeply involved in the research and development of Mission Research products. He currently leads a team in re-architecting a Food Stamp Benefits Pre-Screening Program in New York in conjunction with the United Way and seven community-based food-assistance organizations. Mission Research is dedicated to helping nonprofit organizations focus more resources on their core missions and less on non-mission operations.

Mr. Crystle earned his BA in English from the University of Delaware in 1991, graduating into the last great recession. A songwriter and performing musician, he aspired to become a successful musician, playing clubs around Philadelphia, New York, Central PA, and Washington. To pay the bills while trying to get a record deal, he found part-time work as a $7/hour proofreader in a pre-press operation in Delaware before moving back to his hometown of Lancaster, PA. In Lancaster Mr. Crystle jumped from one low-paying temp job to the next, ultimately landing a 3rd-shift temp job as a proofreader for Donnelley Financials.

In 1992 he signed a small record deal, but by 1994 left the commercial music world to start a computer company called Versicom. A self-taught programmer and computer technician, Mr. Crystle learned about running a small business through trial by fire; the first year was indeed rocky. But by 1996, he had moved the company into computing strategies and programming services for local businesses, helping them improve operations through technology and process solutions. In 1996 Mr. Crystle took substantial risks and completely transformed the company into a commercial software company, renaming it Chili!Soft. While running up debts, ruining his credit, and working 100-hour weeks, Mr. Crystle propelled the company into the national spotlight, which received the prestigious Best of PC Expo award for development software in June 1997, beating out IBM, Microsoft, Lotus, and Netscape for the honor. The company had only 3 people at this time. In Fall of 1997 Mr. Crystle closed venture financing for the company after an intensive, bi-coastal 9-month search. He moved the company to Seattle, where the company began to grow substantially. Mr. Crystle left the company in November 1999; in 2000 Cobalt Networks acquired Chili!Soft. Cobalt and Chili!Soft were subsequently acquired by Sun Microsystems, where Chili!Soft ASP has been renamed Sun ONE Active Server Pages and ships on most Sun and IBM servers.

Since the sale, Mr. Crystle has served as a board member and advisor of several startups and started his own called Mission Research. In addition, he has worked as an adviser to Witness.org, NpowerNY, and Casa Alianza in Costa Rica, and has become an active advocate for democracy and the rights of children in Central America. In 2000 he started work on a documentary about the plight of street children in Managua, Nicaragua, and Tegucigalpa, Honduras. The project is expected to be completed in the next year. Mr. Crystle lives in Lancaster, PA and commutes to the Jersey Shore when the fishing is good.

[kwolf68]

162. POST OF THE WEEK

This post should shutdown the hand-wringing.

[kwolf68]

161. I like it

The problem with the Democratic Party is its run by “practical” POLITICIANS. That plus reality equals a party moving to the right, a party in bed with the same interests as the Repukes, a party not willing to stand up, gamble and fight for what is right.

I, for one, relish the thought of Mr. Crystle getting into the fight if he so desires.

Where do any OF YOU get off telling a man what he should or should not do? If he wants to run then have at it. That is the spirit of democracy and shame on you if you want someone to resist doing something they feel in their heart they need to do.

[Vis Numar]

163. Don't know

I don't know where they get off, I don't even think they ever got on. The whole criticism here was vacuous, a spew by two posters without laying to a single issue of relavence, other than political experience! Its hard to imagine that they could be more simplistic.

I can understand if someone takes issue with a candidate because of an issue, but political office-holding experience? GMAFB!

Plus, after I looked into it, the clincher showed that Crystle is actually MORE WIDELY experienced than Hoeffel is!

I think Crystle will win, and mainly because the establishment of the Democratic party is so lame, that people abandon them at the first showing of an insurgent that has any potential at all, which is where Crystle comes in.